City 91.5 Greeley Fort Collins k e n c 90.7 s. This park. 90.9 at Mintern Vale k r n c 88.5 Steamboat Springs. 90.7 Breckenridge Ok there is Joshua Johnson the host of one over the years we can accumulate a lot of stuff and if it's time to get rid of an unwanted vehicle donated to k.u.n.c. The proceeds will benefit your favorite shows it's easy to get started right now the details are online at. Www dot org. If you're listening to me right now you're a public radio believer someone who believes in the importance of fact based news someone who wants to hear all sides of the story if that sounds like you can support the diverse coverage you care about by becoming a k.u.n.c. Member at k.u.n.c. Dot org And thanks. Hello and welcome to the forum from the b.b.c. World Service with me Bridget Kendall loot the looters turn Russia upside down peace is the slogan of Filon Steinsson priests the proletariat slogan must be civil war on quotes from Vladimir Lenin the leader of the Bolsheviks who seized power in Russia in 1917 and plunged it into civil war what was to tear the country apart a battle for power involving multiple factions vying to determine Russia's future pitching Lenin's botia big red army against a loose alliance of white forces by the time it was Lenin who declared victory millions have died in battle and many move being executed so what exactly triggered the civil war could it have been avoided and was it inevitable that a communist dictatorship would follow I'll be joined by 3 historians all experts on the Russian Civil War to help us on rival this complex conflict or on the forum after the news. Other units with the b.b.c. News Democratic presidential candidates in the u.s. Have condemned Donald Trump after a senior diplomat Gordon sambal and testified that the president had directed efforts to press Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden the left wing Senator Bernie Sanders told a televised debate with 9 all the candidates that Mr Trump was corrupt and the pathological Mr Biden himself said it was clear Mr Trump didn't want to face him in the 2020 lection another of the frontrunners Senator Elizabeth Warren had this to say about the testimony of Ambassador I want to add one more part based on today's testimony and that is how did ambassadors get there you know this is not a man who had any qualifications except one he wrote a check for a $1000000.00 And that tells us about what's happening in Washington the corruption how money buys its way into Washington. The term Democratic Party candidates also vowed to alter radically the foreign policy pursued by Donald Trump Joe Biden said the u.s. Must make clear to China that Washington stood for the human rights of people such as the week has and protestors in Hong Kong the technology entrepreneur I'm too young was asked what he would say in his 1st phone call to the Russian president Vladimir Putin if he wanted to be elected 1st I'd say I'm sorry Beecher No I. Was not sorry sorry. And 2nd I would say the days of meddling in American elections are over and we will take any undermining of our democratic process to use as an act of hostility and aggression firefighters in Australia are battling almost 200 bush fires across the country in the state of Victoria residents have been told to be prepared to leave their homes has for Massa for the 1st time in almost a decade a code red warning the highest fire level was issued for the Australian state of Victoria residents named Diana writes northwest of Melbourne have been told it's too dangerous to leave as a large grass fire burns out of control smoke from bushfires says again blanketed Sydney with a toxic haze all far it is in Australia's biggest city have also announced the toughest water restrictions in 10 years a new study has warned that a 3rd of tropical African plants are on the path to extinction there was silence led by French scientists say much of West Africa Ethiopia and parts of dams and here and the Democratic Republic of Congo could lose more than 40 percent of their Flora they say plant life is being threatened by De Forest station pump elation growth and climate change this is the world news from the baby Suri. Pope Francis has condemned the exploitation of women and children in the sex industry during the 1st full day of his visit to Thailand addressing politicians and diplomats at the prime minister's office the pope praised the efforts of the Thai government and private organizations to eradicate this scourge as he pointed the head of the Roman Catholic Church also called for migrants to be welcomed saying they had had to endure a tragic exodus from their countries the United Nations nuclear watchdog the i.a.e.a. Meets later today to discuss further breaches by Iran over its nuclear deal with world powers nuclear inspectors say that Iran's stock of heavy water is now higher than permitted under the terms of the agreement more from Bethany Bell Iran has also received uranium enrichment and its underground site full of the i.a.e.a. Also wants to Iran to explain the origin of uranium pasta cols discovered It's an undeclared fight in Iraq the United States withdrew from the nuclear deal last year it's test sanctions and what it calls maximum pressure will full see Iran to negotiate a broad agreement political uncertainty has deepened in Israel after the Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was main challenger Benny Gunston gave up efforts to form an administration after missing a deadline on Wednesday night Mr Ganns blamed his rival for the failure Mr Netanyahu was given the 1st chance to build a coalition but he was also unsuccessful. Google has announced its stopping highly targeted political advertising on its platforms the new policy will prevent advertisers using political affiliations and voter records to aim their messages at specific individuals advertisers will be limited to using gender age and graphical location. On pineapple dying on Grouse your days are numbered Laos the words of the celebrated Soviet Persian artist Vladimir Mayakovsky adopted as one of the slogans for the 917 October Revolution and the communist schools in the Russian Civil War that soon followed but while the revolution which brought Lenin and his bullshit party to pass was almost bloodless the subsequent civil war was one of the most brutal and chaotic periods of Russian history it was a power struggle at every level and much more than just a war between czarist and communist forces involving workers peasants and of his as well as nationalists from Poland to Ukraine and 11 foreign powers the whole Russian Empire descended into turmoil as witnessed by the humorist writer known as Tevye in 1900. 70 some wily devil his stick someone young must go and began spinning Russia like a whirlwind top. Pieces are flying in various directions like Spock's the Crimea the casus Poland Little Russia. Finland to the Baltic region side b. Area. We all move soon only this stick will remain. The Civil War ended in 121 but in many ways it was key in shaping the new. You Soviet state and even Russia's identity today and it raises many questions how was it a small extremist party like the Bolsheviks managed to seize power why did the Civil War end up crushing hopes for Russian democracy did lay the groundwork for a start ins dictatorship or could things have gone differently Hello I'm Bridget Kendall and welcome to the forum where experts share their knowledge with us joining me to discuss the Russian Civil War Dr cause she got to have gotta lead curator of the Russian and East European collections at the British Library in London Nora angle Stein professor emeritus of Russian history at Yale University in the United States and author of Russia in flames and Stephen Smith professor of history at Oxford University and author of Russia in revolution Let's start by looking at the triggers for the Russian Civil War Some are still had ended after the revolution of February 917 and this was followed by a provisional government which was then overthrown in the same called October Revolution and by Lenin and the Bolsheviks Steve can you briefly explain how you see this chain of events the setting the seeds for the civil war that followed the separate Lucian's occurs against the backdrop of the 1st World War Russian was involved in the war and the expectation of the politicians who came to power in the provisional government was the revolution might actually revive the war effort. For many the revolution was about the achievement of a more just and equal society these were socialists of different stripes and they were represented by something called the Soviet Soviet means council but Soviets were bodies that were based in the working class and to some extent in the army and they wanted peace they wanted an end to this long and brutal war the Bolsheviks were the only group that had a militant opposition to the war which they considered to be an imperialist war a war for conquest of war in which the allies stood for territorial gain and they began to pick up support So this is one of the trick is then this dispute about whether or not to continue with the 1st World War Both thing to that constituency that works in the presence know we can offer the peace instead another trigger that's often talks about scholarship is that off to the Bolshevik Revolution the October Revolution there was a move by Lenin to dissolve the constituent assembly which was supposed to take place which had the impact of divesting other parties of the chance of power can you talk about what your view is about this how important was this as a poke in the right for Russia that point which led to civil war the provisional government was called professional because the idea was that the so-called constituent assembly will be elected in a way you can call it palm and become the real it because these are the real government Exactly yeah set the scene for the real government and elections that took place and by that time socialists of various types where really very popular one of the most popular parties. And later the majority in the custody as assembly was the party all for social revolution that so they were socialists but they were supported by peasants and so they logically should have been the people to form the next government absolutely but the Bolsheviks moved in to stop it what happened yes so that's why that decision was taken to dissolve the assembly and rule as that one single party I suppose a key question at this early time Lura is there was all this maneuvering going on to try and get power but how was it that the Bolsheviks managed in these early weeks months to establish a monopoly of power how far was it about already cracking the whip because very very early on in December 19th 17 right they set up what was known as the Czech car which became essentially the Secret Service to the origin of the organization which later became known as the end Kavi day the k.g.b. Today is known as the f.s.b. So was that a key factor in all of this and what the Bolsheviks would doing that from the very beginning never patch be ruthless let me just back up of it when the Bolsheviks announced that the decree of peace that the Russians were going to withdraw from the war the commander in chief at the time refused to authorize it and it's in this sort of tense moment that the Bolsheviks the set up that your car as a political police designed to fight against what they called counter revolution subversion and so on but in fact to fight against different forms of opposition and when and really had to maneuver the situation when they do conclude the peace this outrage not only the anti Bolshevik right but also the anti Bolshevik left and in particular the socialist revolutionaries start instigating assassinations revolts and. It's at this point that that should cause power and remit is extended I'm already beginning to get the picture that actually working out what came 1st was it a hard crackdown on which prompted a reaction was it the reaction which then created a tougher discipline at the center to try and counter it it's all very complex and difficult to discern time but we've been hearing about a number of reasons why the civil war might have started but let's look at what happened next Steve what about the former czarist forces if you mobilized against the Bolsheviks How did this happen who were they exactly at this early point well the form of czarist forces were really czarist officers by this stage the mass of the rank and file soldiers were busily going back to their villages because there was very little food and the Bolsheviks had committed themselves to peace but there were several tens of thousands former officers who felt that Russia. Had been shamed and that the Bolsheviks were a diet threat to what they called Russian statehood Russia's on the as an imperial power the turd had huge influence in Europe and in Asia and they decided that the best place to try and organize military opposition was in the south of Ukraine in the area that was occupied by the dawn Cossacks and the Cossacks were historically a number of groups 8 or 9 that had received certain privileges from these are in return for defending the from tears of the Russian Empire they were rather militaristic in their culture and in the eyes of the czarist officers the most likely. Group in society to provide a base. Group of soldiers who would fight for the honor of Russia. So we're already getting a picture of the various different groups who talked about the social revolutionaries here is not easy being put out of joint because they've been elevated side by the Bolsheviks we have full czarist officers you see the Bolsheviks is a da threat. Joining up with the Cossacks we now have white generals and then Kucha there are all the groups that joined in to enlist Intriguingly in May 1918 I think it is a check legion of 30000 troops who've been in the Czar is Tommy who now anti Bush if they decided to join the opposition forces to the Czech Legion they went travelling from the fronts of the 1st world war back home but surprisingly they were not given access to go to the west straight back to their native lands so they had to travel through the whole Russia across Siberia across Iberia and to be honest they were not really keen on intervening in anything which was happening in Russia they just wanted to go home and as sometimes happens in a war the temperature is too high. They started fighting and simply because there was a demand to dissolve one or 2 of their men and they didn't want to and that's how it all happened so they had to they didn't choose it right it's a kind of symbol of the chaos of the civil Woolridge Yes it wasn't just the Czech legions you got drawn in Steve the were also other foreign powers he became involved want indeed the armistice comes in November 918 technically the Brits in the. Arctic there in our home Girls Gone Wild Manske the French were in the Black Sea The British are in the Caspian looking after or oil in Baquba and then a very sizable contingent of u.s. Japanese troops in the Far East they technically should have withdrawn but there is real anxiety about the Bolsheviks threat is articulated very well by Churchill who is a minister in the British government of this period who talks about strangling the baby of Bolshevism in its cradle so what had been initially attempt to try and maintain military action by the allies on the Eastern Front does turn more and more into an anti bullshit crusade this interesting cause here isn't it that in the in the way we talk about the Russian Civil War we talk about the Reds and the whites the Red Army which is the Bolsheviks the communists the whites which is the anti push right to know where these 2 terms came from. That was one of Lenin's tricks and a very clever one and worked really well as a propaganda device so that all the opponents of the Bolsheviks where branded as whites and whether they were mana casts socialist revolution of a is a nationalists and I kissed all of them were cold whites and that gave Lenin and the Bolsheviks an opportunity to position the enemy in a way that dehumanize it to the point that you don't really need to understand what the goals of the enemy or what they want who they are so they they just the whites. As the civil war got underway with the strengthening of the white opposition the Reds had no option but to format or not. Many soldiers who workers and peasants that Lenin encouraged by describing the enemy as international company lists and Russian landowners and I can because. I don't want it but. I think that. Is the point and open to. God I love what I didn't think of because. Yes. That's the voice of Lennon himself addressing the Red Army but it was actually a fellow a revolutionary Leon Trotsky who really turned the army into an effective fighting force Norah give me some examples of what he did and how he maintained discipline the Army took a long time to consolidate and along the way the Red Army relied on irregular forces partisan groups with their own leaders their own lack of discipline in their own use of violence and it was part of Trotsky's strategy to use them as long as they were needed but actually gradually to bring them under Central Command and at the same time not just to use coercion to install discipline but to use propaganda education to instill a spirit a new kind of spirit in this Russian army it's interesting that you mention propaganda Laura because some of the ways that Trotsky used to keep the army together a fascinating he had a moment a car which took the country showing good films it was a new leg a for the Red Army created the red star and there was even a text devised for the Red Army soldiers to recites which was structured rather like a religious catechism Who are you. If they ask you that. Defender of the poor across the world what are you fighting for for justice so that the lands and factories and the rewards and forests and the wealth belong to the rocking people how do you fight the enemy and without mercy until I crush him. It's fascinating to hear that is one reason that 700 years almost a country Lenin described his rule as dictatorship of the proletariat and the was an active use of tyrant wasn't also noticed a measure of it the population through propaganda but also to. That to coerce it yes definitely and this was another Lennon Strix when he actually flipped the term dictator or dictatorship because obviously even them the term had negative connotations but what Lenin was saying yes this is dictatorship but this is dictatorship not off one person or a small minority this is dictatorship of the majority and they are for giving this kind of dictatorial rule as if in they had the hands of the people themselves that was what he was saying of course what was happening in real life was quite different because that was real terror and the red Terra became a system and it was inherited by the Soviet Union and later led to what we call the Stalin regime. So this red terror leads one to another question another major problem facing the Bolsheviks which is lack of food and starvation especially in the cities because of this need to provide food especially to the cities led to a policy called War Communism didn't do it can you tell us about that yes and that was the again the very ruthless policy that was introduced during the civil war because there was no supply of food from the villages to to sit as and obviously air but the Red Army needed supply and that is why the Bolsheviks took the decision to go for this policy that was Rick was issued just requisition and the peasants well left not only without food but without crops for the next year. And that put them in a terrible condition Well certainly there was a great deal of brutality and violence in the Soviet Jewish writer Isaac bubble who was assigned to the Red Army Cavalry in 1920 they mostly said our way of bringing freedom horrible but the use of terror was in fact used by both sides anti semitism and enter ethnic violence were rife especially among the whites who slaughtered thousands of Jews in what were called programmes Lura Can I ask you to give us some sort of sense of what happened to the Jews during the Russian Civil War and why that was an integral part of the conflict so the white forces did you consider me for example for them anti semitism was an official ideology they thought of the communists as Jews so they yet commissar the Jews were behind the Bolshevik regime and since to a certain extent popular anti semitism was very prevalent they could motivate the populace forces they wished to attract with the notion of getting rid of the Jews the Bolsheviks of course oppose anti semitism but they couldn't entirely stop the activity of some of their own forces and they violated the official position of the Bolsheviks whatever else they were doing that was abusive they were not officially proclaiming anti semitism also Jews were sometimes in fact sociologically speaking associated with some of the categories that the Bolsheviks were out to get rid of such as petty traders speculators even industrialists of course has to be said that the vast majority of all these categories were not Jews so they became a kind of symbolic flashpoint and they kind of exemplify that kind of very aggressive violence that characterized the Civil War Well we've been looking at some of the salient characteristics of the Civil War Communism requisitioning use of Terra pogroms and so on but. We also touched on the fact that in the hand the big arc of this is that the white forces can't actually hold the opposition against the Reds and in the end they have to pull back just briefly Steve is the reason that they're not able to do it because they're overstretch the whites are in different parts of Russia where is the Bolsheviks hold the center and that just gives them the advantage I certainly think that that is one factor the Bolsheviks the controllers of the central part of European Russia had control of railways they had control of the defense industries on the other hand the whites on the periphery had more access to food they had access to coal for example so that is an important factor but I would want to say that there are issues around the quality of the army and so I think the read only becomes more effective whereas the whites are increasingly subject to rivalries between leaders they feel great resentment at the absence of really forceful intervention on the part of the allies I think too there is a political side to this and in particular the whites really fail to come up until very late under a month of the long haul in 1020 with a land program so they are perceived by the great mass of the population the peasants as likely to bring the landlords back now the instances in which they did that were relatively few but perception is what matters and the other issue is one that Laura's talked about which was the national question if you like how do you deal with the aspirations of growing numbers of normal Russians and the Civil War is a period when nationalism everywhere is on the increase not just in Ukraine in the Baltic but even among Muslim peoples in Central Asia. Among the meanings of by John and so on in the Caucasus out of the white absolute fear of the Russian nationalists they do not believe that any concession should be made to those they consider to be separatists and as a result the Bolsheviks who by no means could be seen as conditional supporters of the national question nevertheless were people who were much much more flexible they were willing to give certain kinds of concessions so I think politics if you like ideology has got a role to play in explaining the ultimate failure of the whites thank you for the moment we've been hearing how the former Russian Empire was to win a pot by a brutal civil war principally for between the communists and the czars sympathises in part 2 of the forum we'll hear how the failure of the white challenge resulted in fastens of Russians fleeing to Constantinople well want to be great even took to earning his keep by rasing cockroaches and how did all these events in Russia itself give rise to Stalin and by the way if you'd like to listen again to this program or hear about other topics on history's science literature you can download the forum is a free point cost just such b.b.c. The forum and put cost but for the moment stay with us we'll be back off to the news summary distribution of the b.b.c. World Service in the United States is made possible by American Public Media producer and distributor of award winning public radio content engaging audiences creating meaningful experiences and fostering conversations a.p.m. American Public Media with support from a lot of your Mellon dedicated to making a difference for children battling cancer you can join the fight Black Friday through Cyber Monday at love your melon dot com. Still to come on the forum on the Russian Civil War and how it ended the final stand of the white army and its supporters before they fled across the Black Sea to find refuge in Constantinople and the consequences of the civil war for Russia but immediately for a country left in ruins long term decades of one party communist dictatorship still with me historians So stay with us we'll be back after the news summary. A.b.c. News with Neil Nunez Democratic presidential candidates in the u.s. Have condemned Donald Trump after a senior diplomat turns to find that the president had directed efforts to press Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden that left wing Senator Bernie Sanders told a televised debate with 9 all the candidates that Mr Trump was corrupt and a pathological liar senator coming to Harris said there was a criminal living in the White House your thought is in Australia's Victoria state a visit the highest level fire alert in 10 years the toughest water restrictions in a decade have been imposed in the country's biggest city Sydney across Australia firefighters are battling almost 200 bush fires a new study has warned that a 3rd of tropical African plants are on the path to extinction the research led by French scientists as much of West Africa Ethiopia and parts of downs and the Democratic Republic of Congo could lose more than 40 percent of their Flora Pope Francis has condemned the exploitation of women and children in the sex industry during the 1st full day of his visit to Thailand addressing politicians and diplomats at the prime minister's office the pope praised the efforts of the Thai government and private organizations to eradicate this scourge as he put it the United Nations nuclear watchdog the i.a.e.a. Meets later today to discuss further breaches by Iran of its nuclear deal with world powers nuclear inspectors say that Iran's stock of heavy water is now higher than fermented under the terms of the agreement tens of thousands of Colombians are expected to join protests across the country today as pontiff a nationwide general strike all major trade unions human rights activists and civil society groups are taking part in the strike b.b.c. News. This is the forum from the b.b.c. World Service I'm Bridget Kendall and today we're discussing the Russian Civil War a bitter past truckle that shook the former Russian empire from 190921 and was principally fought between the red so Bolsheviks and the whites was ours sympathizes with me on the line from the United States Laura and Goldstein and with me in the studio Steve Smith and. My. Kids and accept from a Red Army song from 920 the white army are preparing the royal train again but from Siberia to the British Seas the Red Army is the stronger and as in the words of the song the Red Army did eventually prove stronger than the white army by the start of $120.00 the remnants of the white army took refuge in the southern Crimean Peninsula a scrap of land compared to the bass territories of Russia further east under the command of the our Socratic and dashing General Wrangel General Wrangel may have been hoping for some help from the Poles who are fighting their own war with the Soviets at this time in fact throughout the Civil War national struggle for independence from the Baltic states to the a crane had also been playing out with these nationalist armies sometimes siding with the whites and sometimes with the Reds and Noora it's right isn't it that the fight for Polish independence in 120 could have benefited the whites of wrangled the last leader of the white forces hope to conclude some kind of alliance with the Poles with they were not interested at this point the Red Army had failed to prevent the poles from achieving independence which was something of a surprise but. His desire to fork up with the Poles leads to nothing so he is really left in isolation on the Crimean Peninsula and Steve this was also important because it put paid to Lenin's on Bishan 1st spread of the Marxist revolution that he'd hoped he'd started in Russia into Europe and it yes that's right let me in was normally fairly cool heads about military matters but a sort of rush of blood to the head came like in spring 1920 when having seen the conflict between Ukraine and Poland he became convinced that sending the Red Army into Poland would open up a way for the Red Army to get into Germany and as we know the Polish people as a whole rose up as they have done historically against Russian invaders a dramatic military victory. By this stage a new European war including independent Poland independent Baltic States was emerging it's interesting consequence of the civil war isn't it the probably a lot of people don't think about too much that the war was 1st the fight and then the emergence of these independent states between Russia and Europe as a result of this turbulent period that's right I think we still tend to think about the civil war as something Russian and we still talk about a Russian Revolution which in some ways is quite misleading Russia was an empire and the old order collapsed and collapse spectacularly borders became very very ill defined very porous there are constant inter actions between say Turkey and Muslim peoples and certainly Ukraine poles Belorussia all these kinds of borders a very very indeterminate but one of the outcomes of the failure of the Russian Revolution as it were to expand into Europe is that nation states that we take for granted now do become consolidated. Well as you've heard the rebellious pose didn't help the whites in the end and when the foreign passed that also would join their support in the late 1920 General Wrangel had no choice but to order a massive seaborne evacuation to Constantinople Now Istanbul across the Black Sea in modern day Turkey this consisted of almost 150000 people who are leaving Russia never to return like the writer Tevye whom we heard from at the beginning of the program. This steamer shot is whipping up white foam with his propel us reading black smoke over the shoreline . Slowly the land flips away from us don't look at it you must look ahead into the wide free expanse of blue that somehow the head turns back eyes are opening light and they keep looking looking. At least 2000000 people emigrated as a result of the Civil War Some of them passing through Constantinople the historian Edward Charlton Jones has researched the lives of these White Russian emigres in the city where for a time there was the highest density of Russian emigres in the world with many fighting to survive from the moment they set foot that Russians arrived and many of them found that they had to completely retrain learn a skill essentially said that they could get by their kind of wonderful stories of Russian eristic rats arriving in the city and realizing that they needed to sign down for a coffin 3 courses and working to say that they had some kind of profession which is a sort of ironic fulfillment of the Bolsheviks aims in a sense that these are stick rats from really taking up working class trades and there are sort of characters who get by improvising in the strangest ways so the mystical philosopher. Of start talking caviar and passing self off as a caviar connoisseur and then one of the more colorful ones perhaps involves a man who sets up a cockroach racing ring where you could go and bet on cockroaches the Russians were too poor to destitute to have horses so what do they have instead they had cockroaches and there was a building somewhere in the center of Istanbul which they nicknamed the calf our drive from the cockroach road and you could go and bets on an individual cockroach and hope that it won the race and if so win lots of money and that was described in goggles play flight very memory. Ok we played out all the. Stuff out of the out of. That. Number. But it. Sounds like you. Now done so I died. Like the. Comics but from the b.b.c. Radio production of the play flight I pulled off. Well the white defeated mass emigration wasn't completely the end of the Russian civil war in Central Asia for instance on resistance when torn into the 1920 s. Amongst the whites but no longer a factor inside Russia others began to object to harsh Bushwick rule didn't they Steve they were peasant rebellions and also the so called cons start uprising of sale and soldiers and civilians in the Gulf and not right until I suppose the end of the Soviet Union the West thought about the end of the civil. Very much in terms of Kronstadt which was a highly symbolic moment because the crunch that I learned is not very far from the former capital what became Leningrad Nelson Petersburg and this was an uprising of sailors who by any measure were highly committed to the socialist revolution what I think has become much much more evident since the archives of the former Soviet Union have become open is just how much this was really the tip of an iceberg during the Civil War as touchy was saying there was very ruthless requisitioning of food which led very regularly to small scale spontaneous peasant uprisings but as soon as the peasants were aware that the white threat was gone there was going to be no return of the landowners and given that the conditions had steadily deteriorated to the point where famine was now on the horizon you get the beginnings of what one might call peasant armies often led by former socialist opponents of the Bolsheviks socialist revolutionaries and the best researched of these is in Tom Wolfe which is southeast of Moscow several 100 kilometers but probably the biggest and the least known still was in Western Siberia where over a huge area in a row of uncoordinated way you get between autumn 1920 s. And rough for you or to 921 something like 50 major peasant uprisings right across the form and path and these I think help us to understand why the Bolsheviks reacted so brutally against the Kronstadt rebels there was a real fear. But having defeat of the heights they might actually be overthrown by those they claimed to represent Do we have a sense that the death toll from civil war over all those who died because of warfare and those who died for other reasons like summary executions I mean the figures are incredibly approximate there is a rough figure of about 4 and a half 1000000 people who died directly in war but that includes as we have discussed not just the Red Army and the white forces but also many irregulars many parties and so forth and when you look at that actually the great majority die of disease they die of typhus dysentery cholera and so on the population by 922 this fall and by about 12700000 on 917 but those are not all people have died 2000000 as we've said went into immigration about 5000000 die of starvation in the Volga region but you know this is a pretty staggering figure and I think dramatize the extent to which this is a civil war that tears apart social structures and brings disease brings hunger brings cold remember you know the severe winters and often it's right when there is some 7000000 or if an absolutely result of this ramming over the country is not clear exactly is there any way that the author of cherry an outcome item being avoided or less if there had been a civil war after the Bolsheviks took part it hadn't collapsed into civil war might we have had something different well this remains one of the big contentious questions but I think the Bolsheviks were for a time a fairly heterogeneous party a party in which they were very uncertain about how you build such. Listen nobody had ever done it before and there was a degree of open spot civil war really really constrains them and the worst aspects of Bolshevism I think came to the fore Terra authoritarianism and so on. I suppose you have to make the point that there was some good that emerged out of if not the civil war then Bolshevik rule in the sense of better education and health the electrification of the country as the propaganda of the Soviets used to tell us and Kushal we shouldn't forget the role of artists and writers in this period should we we had the perch Mycoskie with his pretty Bolshevik slogans at the start of the program this was a period of extraordinary creativity for propaganda purposes yes but a lot of this work poems plays pictures posters we celebrate is very important to art today this is absolutely true but I would say that probably the only thing that was good. As obviously we then can see that contest where dissolution quite a few of them where killed by the regime some committed suicide is not going to be made to come easy yeah I think that Michael was big ideological and artistically than the regime and the life around him where actually offering him on another point Laura what was the legacy do you think of the Civil War as far as the Soviet Union's relationship with audacity to the west was. Well I think this opposition to the west was partly rooted in socialist or Bolshevik ideology and that West represented capitalist society had astral commercial society Bush was society so that is another way in which this legacy gets reinforced and then we have to come forward into the various periods of Soviet history of course in the 2nd World War the Soviet Union was a wide with the Western powers and then after the war we enter the period of the Cold War in which the opposition is revived so that it is partly very useful as an us versus them as a sense of where we stand more of politics and geo political sense it's also has written socialist or communist ideology finally cause here was a book how the civil war is seen in Russia Today How is it viewed. It is difficult to say this because it is not viewed at all that evolution and the Civil War were silenced almost silenced in the year 2017 the centenary of the revolution and I think that what is happening now in Russia this cult of stability him and the Russian political elite and the power that trying to establish their authority and legitimacy idea of stability so everything which is not stable the revolution civil unrest civil wars this is because the threat to the status quo so basically they want to forget that that evolution was happening and the Civil War was happening and they refer quite I don't cry to that would say at the referred to the Russian empire and the Stalin Soviet Union at the same time as the points of stability and. And strength up power trying to push the periods of instability into their big black hole but I don't think this is something that comes from the grassroots Do you have any thoughts on that Steve I think that the Soviet era wise action of the Civil War was so enormous that it actually on the one hand and blanked out the 1st world war on Russia actually have the greatest number of deaths as a result of the 1st world war of any of the belligerent powers but secondly the sort of Hara wise ation of this as the triumph of the Bolsheviks as the revolution completed just left no space for ordinary people who died as a result of disease or family to articulate grief and to reproduce memory too much happened tough to read in a way that helped to just confine it to oblivion. Thank you all very much indeed obviously the Russian Civil War is very complex in fact it consists of many interlocking wars but I have this program has given some idea of the main events and how it affected some of the people many thanks to all 3 of you can share. Steve Smith and Laura angle Stein and the translated readings in the order you had them were by Edith Steve Smith Robert and Elizabeth Chandra and the rejection and Rena Steinback Do join us next week on the forum and see you soon. I'm now sporting witness with me. This week we remember the Cricket World Cup that changed the way people saw it's about the gang in 1998 India heisted the 1st international tournament for the. Talents had previously been ignored and changed the way India treated people. People are dead making noise and there was a lot of excitement and we were just kind of. Winning. In November 1998 from India Pakistan Sri Lanka South Africa Australia England and New Zealand gathered in the. Cricket World Cup It was organized by businessmen. This is a game based on sound and the before he starts is run up he says. And. You know when he strikes the middle of the bat and then. Speeding away in the crowd. You know you would. Be. In the. Files and the ball is plastic. Around and the stumps of metal the biggest when the ball is bowling is when he has the plastic hitting metal that's exciting for him because he's somebody but yet instead of. Plastic all. On Messel us to go on board when the back strikes the book. End of plastic gun metal in the battle midst of all of. The. George Abraham grew up in cricket loving India in the 1970 s. With dreams of playing for his country he took inspiration from the hard men of the era like Australia Ian Chappell you see a problem face it and attack it you know that's the that's the moto and I think that it was Ian Chappell who gave me that initial idea of taking a problem head on and growing up partially sighted George had tackled many problems realising that was nice future in cricket he tend to a career in advertising but a visit to a school for the Blind in Delhi changed him what I saw there kind of shocked me there were kids who had much better eyesight that me there were literally languishing in the school and the buildings were run down the attitude of the teacher was questionable the whole place smelled of urine and I asked the peaches what would these kids too after they finish school of a story that their blend of truth and what can they do but in another school in the north of the country blind students were following that passions many playing of the cricket with a bowl which rattled by it was the physical training instructor whom I had met the previous 2 so I struck a conversation with him he told me that these guys wake up in the morning play cricket go for breakfast come back and pick it and go to classes come back and pick a good lunch come back and pick it and in the evening when the light gets bad he said I had to form and say please I go and see the ball any more I can't. So so bad like what stop lives not because the players can go beyond but the umpire can see the ball and it reminded George is something he'd had the British cricket commentator Brian Johnston talking about joint. You know it's a game of tribute to the blind it's in the middle of a playing field on a glorious morning and basically what happens is this it's an 18 year old pitch the stumps or $35.00 inches high the ball is the size of a foot or when it has $150.00 ball bearings it. Must bow to bounces to someone who is totally blind or one bumps to someone who is partially blind I actually wrote to him and I said you know I have heard you in committee talk about playing cricket and I would like to know more about blind cricket in England so he was kind enough to send me a set of rules a little bit about the game in England in fact Jules Abraham discovered that Vashon of the blind game had been played in various countries for decades I mean 1990 he decided to stage the fast ever national competition in India with the pools from legendary former captain capo death all these kids were so excited and most of these people but f. Ing to each other not by their real names but somebody was calling somebody such and somebody was a routine somebody was going to live so they all kind of identified with some international start on the 2nd day of the tournament a couple they had visited the camping grounds where these blanket doesn't stay and the moment they got to know about it the all kind of trunk up and then they wanted to touch him they wondered see what he was made off and. I had to kind of shield him and say Ok we can don't touch him you can talk to him you know it was fascinating and you know there was so much of passion and it was like the impossible. Actually happening that the impossible wasn't enough that George he wanted these players to have the chance to represent their country so he got in touch with blind cricketing organizations across the world they agreed on a rule that's at least 4 members of each team would have to be technically blind while the rest could be partially. Cited But what about the ball so the cricket ball that was used in different countries was different and I think the bone of contention was which ball should be played with internationally and I think the best part of today is we were kind of debating this at the end of the day I had to kind of say look do you want international cricket or are we going to bicker about the ball and then the New Zealand representative strode up and said I vote for the Indian ball and I vote that we want international cricket. Blowing cricket is a fast game says George Abraham tending to save the batsman bonus rather than field it but enough 1st World Cup The New Zealand team try to change that by crowding the men in an attempt to stop the ball as soon as it was hit the New Zealanders kind of developed something called the wall. 3 or 4 of their players would stand together about 6 to 8 feet behind the batsman standing side by side and since the sweep short was the most popular stroke for many of the players so when you play or sweep shot go down on me and kind of sweep the ball with their bet each time the ball was delivered this one would go down flat on the ground so the ball never went past forward short leg for a long time and a lot of people kind of hamstrung because of this. The final of the 1st tournament was between India's great rivals Pakistan and South Africa the heroes of the match with a team South African I think batsman one of pain could only see clearly team meetings in front of him the field brothers Scott field and Rudy field and you wouldn't believe it in the finals Pakistan had scored well over 300 runs and we expelled the Pakistan is going to take the welcome pull these 2 guys battered for their 40 overs and made those runs the South Africans won the World Cup scoring over $300.00 runs . Don't losing a bigot. To. The Indian government had been reluctant to sponsor the blind Cup but it was such a success that the president attended the closing ceremony Abraham says it was the last thing impact on the plane and the families that really mattered to him the wicked people put example he said that you know this game gave him some kind of recognition within his family and their respect self-respect kind of respect within the community had gone up India won the blind cricket World Cup in 2008 and the Indian government who would hit the captain the Padmashree one of its highest awards George Abraham continues to campaign to change the mindset of people to want blindness through the school Foundation and he was speaking to May. The sporting witness. To get. This is k.u.n.c. 91.5 really Fort Collins and see 90.9 mentor unveil a n.p.v. 90.7 Breckenridge k e n c 90.7 s. Just park and k r n c 88.5 Steamboat Springs. Hi This is Ari Shapiro from All Things Considered car in your driveway no longer sparking joy will free up some precious real estate in your life by donating unwanted vehicles again. The proceeds will benefit the programs you love. It's easy to get started just visit k.u.n.c. Dot org today. This is the Colorado sound all. It's sad. To leave un sees sister station at 1055 it's the Colorado says. 2 2 if 8 am and London Hello and welcome to News Day on the b.b.c. World Service Alan Kosuke John Carney shop with you thanks for joining us good morning and coming up we'll have the latest on the impeachment drama in Washington where key participants in dealings with Ukraine has been speaking at the public hearings saying there was a quid pro quo and everyone knew it and with just 3 weeks to go before the British general election where in Scotland to find out what some students make of breakfast on the debate over.