Hey there I'm Joshua Johnson today on one a the future of sports journalism from Jackie Robinson breaking baseball's color barrier to the sexual assault scandal of gymnastics coach to Collin Kaplan it taking a police brutality to female athletes demanding equal pay the news of sports is getting harder to report the irreverent Web site Deadspin is just one outlet struggling to survive and report on the stories behind the game how it is I'm doing and where does it go from here we'd love to hear from you especially if you are a sports journalist comment on our Facebook page or tweet us. Live from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm Janine Herbst the Justice Department's inspector general is testifying before Congress at this hour answering questions about his report the found the f.b.i. Did not act out of political bias when it opened an investigation into the $26000.00 Trump campaign Michael Horowitz says he was concerned that so many quote basic and fundamental errors were made by the f.b.i. In investigating ties between Trump's campaign and Russia but his report also found the f.b.i. Had proper cause to open the investigation President Trump is planning to sign an executive order today intended to combat anti-Semitism on college campuses but as N.P.R.'s Joel Snyder reports there are fears the move could be used to limit criticism of Israel the president's decision to sign the order was 1st reported by The New York Times which says it would allow the government to withhold federal aid to college campuses that failed to combat anti semitism the orders expected to extend protections against discrimination to Jewish students under Title 6 of the 1964 Civil Rights Act essential directing that Judaism be regarded not just as a religion but as a race or nationality as well but as they should to combat anti semitism amid a boycott Israel movement that has caused tension on some college campuses has stalled in Congress even though it has drawn bipartisan support critics say such a policy change could end up suppressing legitimate speech about Israeli policies trial Snyder n.p.r. News Washington Jersey City Mayor Steven fall of says authorities think a kosher market was targeted in a gun battle yesterday that left 6 people including the 2 gunmen dead although he didn't elaborate on why he thinks the market was targeted and full of says authorities are working to help people heal we could see the van moving through Jersey City streets slowly the perpetrator stopped to be in front of their calmly open the door with 2 long rifles came in and the other perpetrator and began firing from the 3 units you. The facility a police officer and 3 bystanders are among the dead British political leaders are racing around the country today trying to win votes before tomorrow's crucial general election N.P.R.'s Frank Langfitt reports Prime Minister Boris Johnson is pledging finally to get Bracks it done by contrast Jeremy Corbyn leader of the opposition Labor Party is campaigning to turn Britain into a social democracy with free university tuition but voters like Stephen Brown who works in the pharmaceutical industry are skeptical I think I'm probably going to vote Conservative because the guy who was presenting a manifesto which is on financially supports move to move the party for another 30 years Boris Johnson's Conservative Party heading for a small parliamentary majority in tomorrow's vote but the British electorate is unpredictable and has defied the polls in several recent elections Frank Langfitt n.p.r. News London and you're listening to n.p.r. . Me and our leader Aung San Suu Kyi is at the World Court leading her country's defense against accusations of genocide against its rocking a Muslim minority Gambia launched a case against me in mar the International Court of Justice the UN's highest court alleging it violated the 1948 Genocide Convention the Federal Reserve is expected to leave the benchmark interest rate alone the board is wrapping up its 2 day meeting and economists think it will signal it expects rates to remain low well into the next year the Fed has cut rates 3 times this year so far the Library of Congress has announced the newest additions to the National Film Registry As N.P.R.'s Neda Ulaby reports each year the Library picks $25.00 films to be preserved for posterity the registry promotes film preservation and highlights historic films Oh. Historic films like The prince movie Purple Rain from 1904 the oldest movie a silent short from $1000.00 No 3 shows immigrants arriving in Ellis Island their picks this year include Spike Lee's she's gotta have it and the 1959 animated distain movie Sleeping Beauty in unprecedented number of films by women were selected this year including the independent Oscar winner Boys Don't Cry and Madeline Anderson's film I am somebody from 1970 it's considered the 1st documentary on civil rights directed by a woman of color native lippy n.p.r. News all straight as trading and mixed territory at this hour the Dow is down $62.00 points at 27818 the Nasdaq up 9 points at 8625 the s. And p. 500 is up 3 points I'm Janine Herbst And you're listening to n.p.r. News from Washington. Support for n.p.r. Comes from n.p.r. Stations and other contributors include I drive maker of remote p.c. Providing real time remote access to computers anywhere and featuring remote p.c. Vision and augment it a reality support tool to learn more at remote p.c. Dot com support for programming is provided by the way a mess and the need for senior home care continues to grow so does the need for certified caregivers the Smeaton home training program can teach you skills earn more and u.m.s. Caregiving dot org. This is one essay I'm Joshua Johnson in Washington sports journalism in America has always been about life on and off the field this is the 1st year that it's good to see you with other users this is the 1st time this year is the 1st year that I've been it's bigger than the n.b.a. Used to get a basketball because what's happened in search of uses of human to treasure Michael Sam. I'm a football player and I'm gay shortly after the release of a conversation that it legibly included Clippers owner Donald Sterling the n.b.a. Commenced an investigation on would you like to fight and we are in life and live to fight live the things the best the number one man I'm not sure that there's anybody left really boy in a fight I knew. From Collin Kaplan make of the n.f.l. Refusing to kneel for the national anthem to end his cancer of the n.b.a. Speaking out about Turkey's president Richard Tayyip Erdogan to Howard Cosell is infamous interview with the boxing legend Mohammad Ali sports have never been just about the game but covering sports can kind of be a tightrope walk with play by play on one side and harder hitting investigations and commentary on the other 2 bastions of sports journalism a fallen on hard times while trying to walk that tightrope Sports Illustrated and Deadspin Sports Illustrated's owners recently cut half the staff citing financial concerns Deadspin employees recently walked off the job on mass after their corporate owner told them to quote stick to sports what's causing this recent fall in favor for some sports journalism outlets should sports journalists stick to sports or bring in things like politics and business and culture joining us from n.p.r. New York is Laura Wagner a senior staff writer for advice and a former staff writer for Deadspin Laura welcome to one day thanks for having me joining us from w.b. You are. In Boston is Karen given the executive producer of its sports program only a game Karen welcome thank you and with us from w.p.s. You at Penn State is John Affleck he's the Knight Chair of sports journalism and society and a professor at the university's Bellisario College of communications he's also a former reporter and editor for the a.p. Professor Affleck good to have you with us glad to be here we'd love to hear from you too especially if you are or were a sports journalist maybe you're a fan of Sports Illustrated or Deadspin or journalism on any platform you like tell us about the responsibility that you feel sports reporting has to deal with wider issues beyond just balls and strikes and winners and losers email us one day at w a n u dot org comment on our Facebook page or tweet us at one a Karen given Let me start with you is there a difference when we say say sports journalism and other kinds of sports coverage what do we mean in your view when we're talking about sports journalism Oh that's interesting so yeah I think there is a difference I mean I think that the broadcasters the people who are doing play by play are doing that in service of the product right and the product at that point is a bit of an entertainment product so their job is to get you excited about the game to keep you listening to or watching the game to keep your interest level high but I think as journalists we have a much deeper and much broader mission right like our job isn't just to tell you who's winning the game but to tell you everything else that is going on behind the scenes not just in you know putting those teams together who is coaching what their theories are but also these deeper broader issues about you know the players themselves and what they're facing and what we all face in this world I mean as a sports journalist I use sports as a lens to look at the world so I'm not just. Looking at what's happening on the field I'm looking at how the what's happening on the field in or plays with what's happening on the ground in the world in our lives so controversial question number one Karen is play by play journalism or just broadcast Well I mean so people who do play by play would probably disagree with me but I would call that broadcasting and not journalism Laura let's build on that in terms of why in your view sports journalism matters why sports are something worth covering for the public at large even for people who say oh well I'm not really into sports I just I'm much more interested in news and public affairs and what's really going on in the real world sports are really for me right yeah I think there's a perception that sports kind of happen in a vacuum that it separate from the rest of the world but I think that is a little shortsighted everything that happens in sports as Karen said whether it's labor or race or politics or you know issues and society that also are happening in sports like domestic violence for example all of these things are very much a part of sports and to say that sports are sort of a thing apart I think is misguided for us reflects sometimes the sports department can be referred to as the toy department including among some people who do sports journalism because you know you get to cover a lot of the fun stuff I get that but there's kind of a perception based in the you know maybe sports journalism isn't the most serious of subjects or not something to take seriously how do you see that. Well that perception certainly exists in the world and I think that the way we handle it academically speaking is we work to emphasize the other parts of the game. In my basic sports writing course we teach how to cover a game and how to do in advance and follow and all those types of things for about the 1st half of the course but then we get into larger issues we get into covering the business of sports we get into. Legal Matters we get into trying to capture cultural moments and when we do when we do go on the road and do large projects that's an area of emphasis always looking at the cultural lens of sports and I think if you just. Try to get young people interested in that aspect of it it will become more natural as as we go down the road rather than a situation where all you've covered is everything in between the sidelines and then suddenly Collin Kaepernick happens and a sports journalist feels inadequate or unprepared to handle the situation build on that a bit professor as an educator What's your sense of who the sports journalist of the future will be in terms of your students what draws them to it and what might keep them in it the 1st thing that I think draws sports people to sports is sports it is this incredibly wonderful entertaining. Part of the world one of the things that I always say about sports journalism relative to relative to straight news for lack of a better word is that the other sections of the news are typically about failure they're about things that are going badly wrong with our World Sports is the one section where you see human achievement. Routinely people jump higher they achieve more on the basketball court they score more touchdowns they are they they have sports has a natural proclivity to make us feel better about our world but as our other panelists have said it also it also has important issues that we unpack on a daily basis and I think that the future journalists will and people involved in sports like today will love the games but. Very interested in creating a dynamic where they understand that it's more than that and that they should feel comfortable talking about issues that range from you know mental health to physical and sexual abuse too to the underpinning of the business and how money is made in the sport and understanding how that influences decisions that are made or let's talk about Deadspin made news in late October instead of just reporting the news w g.b.h. Boston has a media criticism program but talked about what's been going on with that spin here as part of its coverage the Web site Deadspin melted down this week after new ownership told staffers to focus on sports prompting a bunch of employees to quit it's a turning point for an outlet used to casting a much wider net Laura for those who are unfamiliar with that spin talk about what it is or perhaps was sure so does been was a sports site but it wasn't just a sports site it made its bones reporting on everything from you know Brett Farve sending a picture of his penis to a cheerleader to breaking the story of Mantei tayo as fake dead girlfriend you know those were the big headlines from Dead Spin early on it evolved to cover everything from politics and culture. And race and all of these issues that we've mentioned before and it did so in a very unabashed and direct way pretty river and I think would be fair to say definitely of all of Deadspin as writers and editors Laura quit at the end of October what happened. It had been a long few months of conflict with the private equity owners who bought the company in April so it had been a series of events and disagreements that led to a point in late October when they fired our interim editor in chief our previous editor in chief had effectively been forced out of the company because of this management and then when they made the decision to fire our editor our interim editor in chief and told the rest of us to only write about sports which was when I got everything that spin ever was and stood for we everyone decided on their own whether or not they wanted to work there or not and it turned out that nobody did I want to talk about this more as we continue but what is the value in spins view of reporting on an athlete sending pictures of his goods and services to somebody else I mean it does that why is that valuable Well in this case it was a clear instance of workplace sexual harassment I mean Deadspin was covering the meat to movement in sports before there ever was a need to movement to you know they did it in a very Deadspin way with e.s.p.n. Horn doggery that was a whole tag on Deadspin and it was about different e.s.p.n. Personalities who engaged in sexual harassment I think that Brett Farve story fell along those lines but a very worthwhile stories in sports that deserve reporting how well we get the reporting on those stories we'll discuss that as we continue with Laura Wagner of vice formerly of Deadspin here and given the w.b. War and Professor John Affleck. Penn State University I'm Joshua Johnson and you're listening to one egg from w. Am you and n.p.r. . 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Comes from this station and from at last and whether it's keeping thousands of people on the same page or managing projects from start to finish at last and works to unleash the potential of all types of teams with collaboration software more outlasts Ian dot com and from knew him offering a personalized weight loss program that uses psychology and small goals to change habits with a goal of losing weight and keeping it off for good learn more at noon and 000 m. Dot com This is one and I'm Joshua Johnson We're checking in on the state of sports journalism and some of the challenges that some outlets are facing with Laura Wagner a senior staff writer for Vice formerly of Deadspin. Karen given the executive producer of its program only a game from w.b. You are and n.p.r. And Professor John Affleck and seach of sports journalism at Penn State who's also a former writer and editor for the a.p. We'd love to hear from you especially if you are or were a sports journalist maybe an athlete with thoughts on how you have been covered by sports journalism or just a fan with thoughts about the outlets that serve you well that don't serve you well and whine comment on our Facebook page tweet us at one or e-mail one day at am you dot org Laura a little bit more about Deadspin before we keep going Deadspin is still up the articles of the front page are dated to the beginning of November so the site still kind of exists at least online but it's not really very active you wrote an article for Deadspin about its new parent company Geo media I imagine the management did not like that. You know they did and they tried repeatedly to kill the story while it was still in the reporting process Luckily I had supportive editors who realized that this was a story worth reporting and put their neck out there to get it published what's going on to Deadspin now is the company just completely shut down or what's the state of the company though so Desmond is one of the one of several sites under the Geo media umbrella so the other sites like doesn't talk through job Nick are still publishing. Deadspin is kind of in a limbo I suppose I think you would have to has Jim Spann feller about his plans for and I know they're trying to hire a new dad spent editor in chief though I have no idea what self-respect internal us would go out at the site now Karen what is your sense of the gap that the let's say limbo of Deadspin now leaves now that is functionally gone yeah it's a it's a huge loss I would say for sports journalism as much as when the site started as like this very irreverent silly kind of thing it really morphed into something that was doing very important sports journalism that was really holding sports accountable so you would see investigative stories there that you weren't seeing anywhere else you would hear the stories you know a series that was on Deadspin recently that just really got to me was the stories of the men and the families who were supposed to be getting paid out from the n.f.l. Concussions that all meant but that hadn't gotten them Bernie or it or the money had been severely reduced I mean these this is the kind of reporting that Deadspin was doing really important work and I don't know who fills that gap now Professor Affleck there are other. Organizations that do sports journalism I mean e.s.p.n. Is by their own admission the worldwide leader in sports their mission is to serve sports fans any time anywhere they do investigative journalism with programs like the 60 outside the lines Bob Lee who just recently retired from e.s.p.n. Who we had on this program was considered kind of the Walter Cronkite of sports journalism so what's the difference in your view Professor between what e.s.p.n. Does with sports journalism and what a site like that spin does I think the difference can be captured in the word mythology the e.s.p.n. While doing those. Those notable efforts I'd add 30 for 30 which was completely groundbreaking series of films that continues to this day. Does some great journalism but you're right they have to walk the line and they do have. Huge financial relationships with the n.b.a. The n.f.l. College football conferences and that has to be Taken in taken into account dead spends motto was sports news without access fear or discretion and that made them frightening. To to some of the people in the sports industry and frankly also to sports journalists if they were a sports journalist who had kind of coasted on you know on game and light feature coverage. You know what it was that likes Lauren terms of reporting on sports without access in terms of being allowed in through the front door how does that change the way you report. I think it leads to more creative stories by virtue of not having that friend or access like you say you know you're forced to look for stories that aren't being told so. You know whether diets media criticism of sports media which does been has done forever or investigations you know about the concussion settlement lawsuit my colleague my former colleague Don Constantino covered that. Very deeply and part of that was because no other mainstream news outlet was covering that you know it could also be. Reported on vox media nest the nation's labor model you know that's a sports site s.b. Nation is a sports site but the labor model issue speaks to much bigger issues in digital media you know not just sports media but digital media as a whole so when you don't have that. Traditional access you find stories elsewhere you talk to different people it makes for a different type of reporting certainly some of you miss a number of aspects of this site James wrote on our Facebook page Deadspin was a treasure I really miss drama Gary's annual article making fun of the Williams Sonoma holiday catalog what was that. That. Is truly a treasure and whoever wrote that on the Facebook page I think it will still find a home this year so keep your eyes out but yeah it was a silly tradition nothing to do with sports but Drew would flip through though the know my catalogue and kind of poke fun delightfully poke fun at all of these. Things that they sell no where does that fit in the lower because. I mean I have a problem with satire but that doesn't really seem to be directly sports related so I'm going to a sports website and I'm reading about William Sonoma that doesn't seem directly about sports on the flipside no wrote on our Facebook page of course stick to sports is about control it's management telling the employees to do their job Lord no is exactly right and you know Deadspin entire thing was not sticking to sports what kind of gave Deadspin a soul was that all of us everyone who worked there whether you were you know the night blogger or Drew Magary everyone was empowered to write about what they cared about whether it was serious or silly or something they just found interesting or gross or whatever it was I mean ultimately non sports posts were a fraction of our total output and we did remain a largely sports site but what made Deadspin different and unpredictable and ultimately valuable because these non sports post would draw non sports fans to the site and then they would stay weren't worth. As this type of coverage I mean we got tons and tons of e-mails and feedback in the past months about people who said I never read about sports unless it was on drugs been and that was because I came to does been for you know some silly viral story of a woman throwing her poop in a Tim Hortons and then they stayed on Deadspin to read about you know and I felt concussion settlement or something like that I'll probably read the letter not the former but I'm not judging what people are going to read a I think you should check it out it's really funny but it's also worth noting that this line that some people might perceive is not quite as sharp as one might think the political Web site 538 The deals with a whole lot of statistics in data diving and polling about politics was acquired some years ago by e.s.p.n. And is now owned by a.b.c. News so that cross-pollination goes both ways however Karen we have heard from a number of our listeners who don't want that cross-pollination Ryan wrote on our Facebook page most tend to go to sports to get away from politics and progressive identity divisiveness I want to read about sports I'll go to the New York Times if I want that stuff and Mark emailed I go to sports to escape the troubles of the world when politics and protests push in I to note and unsubscribe sports is for entertainment Carol Yeah I mean I understand that point of view to a degree right so I do this radio show and to a certain extent we say all right we're going to try to at least be talking about things that are within the realm of sports and I understand that people want to get away from all the troubles in the world like as John says sports has this ability to make us feel better about the world and when we talk about these things in sports that aren't so great I understand it gets in the way of that fun but I don't understand how you can watch a football game and watch guys smashing into. Each other and not worry about what their brains are going to be like at the end of it right so you are making a political decision to stick to sports. Care and there is you know I pay for a ticket if they want to play they know the risks they choose to be football players sure they choose to be football players and you choose to watch football and I choose to tell you what's going to happen hey look I love football I watch football too I just watch it with the acknowledgment of what's going on and with the hope of making it better by shining the light on what's going on Professor Affleck I think it's also worth noting that what Ryan and Mark are raising is a very old argument that goes back to the beginning of professional sports itself whether it's Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier or the 1968 Olympics with the black power fist on the podium or Billie Jean King and Bobby Riggs playing the battle of the sexes like the culture always kind of spills into sports Larry Bird and Magic Johnson like real lecture fine basketball it just it's just kind of woven in even though some of us don't like to deal with it I think that's I think that that's true I think we have always had cultural issues that that bled into blood into sports and that's that's just part of the way it is. I would say that on the on the general subject of stick to sports versus nuns don't spect don't stick to sports the. Way there are a couple examples that have popped up recently in which there's been some success saying Ok this is an area where we are just going to sort of present the information and give give the news and just use e.s.p.n. Sports Center it's touchstone news program as an example yes pm got very commentary oriented for a while in Sports Center And during this polarizing political era. That did not go well for them either in terms of ratings or viewer satisfaction they've gone to a model now where for instance of my routine in the morning before I go for a jog is to catch the a the 1st section of the 7 am Sports Center which is an hour that is very much devoted to Ok We're going to catch you up on everything that's happening in the sports world if there's a news story within that that's fine we're just not going to spend 25 minutes talking about it and making your spend its boom boom boom and last night's results right you know and we also have as as tragic as the loss of Deadspin is and it is. And and the the the layoffs at Sports Illustrated We've also got the athletic start up created by a Penn Stater and a Notre Dame guy who which has surpassed $500000.00 people reading it daily it's a subscription based model it cuts against all of the the current the current sort of thinking about whether people will will go be go beyond a paywall it's a largely sports site it's largely a traditional site it's almost like Sports Illustrated on a daily basis right and and it's doing it's doing gangbusters So I kind of think it's a big tent and people can find what they want I'm Joshua Johnson You're listening to one and a. Jason e-mailed in rebuttal to your speaker it does seem sports happens in a vacuum the brawl between the Pittsburgh Steelers and Cleveland Browns is a perfect example of someone committing an assault and not being charged by the police what Jason is referring to is this fight during a Steelers Browns game last month Cleveland was just about to win the game they won $21.00 to $7.00 in the kind of closing seconds of the game this big fight broke out on the field more than 30 players were disciplined to the tune of more than $700000.00 for getting into this fight on the field Professor Affleck I think once upon a time that would have been the purview of Sports Illustrated to dig into the whole thing tell the story in a very vivid way Sports Illustrated this kind of it's sort of a shell of what it once was but in its heyday it meant a great deal do we still even need a Sports Illustrated anymore I mean that niche has been filled. That's an interesting question I mean the illustrated part is kind of gone by the by I think people are still very interested in deep features on issues and people in sports and Sports Illustrated still has some incredibly fine writers and editors at that organization and if they can create content that's strong in that way I think there's always room for a good story I guess I guess that's where I land there is always room for a good story. What they have done they have recently made moves to create sort of a network of low paid sort of freelance people that has not worked out so well initially fav and had a situation where one of those people reported that the u.s. See Coach clay Helton was going to be fired and then a senior writer had to correct that later because his information was better so. I think it's think in that case it's about living up to a standard that has been set and and then we'll see if the public wants it or you reported on the acquisition of the Sports Illustrated brand by a company called maven media and nearly 2 fifths of the staff was laid off in early October tell us a little bit more about what happened there and why it happened. Right so 1st Meredith core sold the brand brand part of Sports Illustrated to a company called authentic brands group authentic brands group sold the publishing and editorial rights to the maven and then once that deal was finalized the maven started to implement their own business model which was. To hire a bunch of people and have them register as Elsie's or they were employees giving you know Sports Illustrated some legal deniability and distance there and then have them largely without any editorial supervision run these team communities about various professional teams so the problem there is not only that these people are paid far far less than what you know a writer would otherwise be making and I would contend that it's an exploitative model but also it dilutes the Sports Illustrated you know their Sports Illustrated Kristie by having these young and often inexperienced people covering these teams. And the other the other part here is that this the using lowly paid or unpaid writers in digital media is very common it happens across the board it's especially common in sports media though because there are so many aspiring sports writers out there who are looking for ways to break into the industry. What that amounts to at Sports Illustrated and ask me nation and fan site and 12 up all of whom use unpaid or lowly paid labor is that it limits it automatically sets up a road roadblock to an already difficult and history to break into what you want to afford I mean I'm sorry Laura I do want to talk about some of the difficulties of that industry going forward when we continue our conversations to close. Bad weather is ruined so many sugar fields in the u.s. This year that the nation's Sugar's stockpile is shrinking and we're not freaking out about that just yet there's plenty a sugar out there the government now will open the door for more sugar imports that plan to bring in foreign sweet stuff and the latest news this afternoon on All Things Considered from n.p.r. News. 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Station back now to our conversation with Laura Wagner Karen given and Professor John Affleck still time to get in some more of your questions and thoughts one a at am you dot org Caren I'd like you to respond to this comment about Deadspin from Rodney Rodney wrote on our Facebook page Deadspin was a solid medium between one the escapism of sports or pop culture or dog gifts or whatever else they posted and to the very real responsibility we all face in addressing the world as it is today now I understand where Ronnie's coming from Karen I think a number of sports fans and Laura I'd like you to chime in on this too Karen I think of number of sports fans would say yes we have a responsibility to face the world as it is but don't tell me where I have to face it if I want to go watch baseball or basketball or football or soccer or hockey or tennis or track and just enjoy it then I should be allowed to enjoy it and you shouldn't force some social message down my throat. Sure Ok so you should be able to go watch and enjoy and maybe this gets back to what we talked about at the very beginning which are is the are the play by play guys journalists or are they not and I think they're not so their job is to let you enjoy the game have a good time watching the game that's not my job my job isn't to support this multimillion dollar business and let you enjoy it more my job is to look critically at this multimillion dollar business and let you know if you choose to listen to me what is really going on there it almost sounds like your job is to make me enjoy it less. Might be but what is that and I have and I should say that's just part of my job rightly that's not the only thing that I do I don't only hold feet to the fire right but that is one of the things that I do along with telling you these stories that make you feel great about the world and about humanity right it's both or how do you see it yeah I guess my question is who's the enjoyment of a great football game for example is. Is wiped out by knowing about you know the behind the scenes labor issues with the n.f.l. P.a. For example I mean it is like I think sports fans who say you know oh I just want to have fun and enjoy this like I think there's room to enjoy it and also know about what's happening behind the scenes it just I just I have trouble kind of understanding that oh you're trying to make me not enjoy this mentality it just doesn't track with me and I'm sorry Laurie you mention the n.f.l. P.a. That's the n.f.l. Players Association that's the union for n.f.l. Players right yes Professor I think that what Rodney is talking about or I'm sorry just what Ron is talking about with some of our listeners have been talking about might be a false dichotomy I mean there are programs like Real Sports on h.b.o. Which I love that can deal with extremely serious issues and investigate it they're basically the 60 minutes of sports journalism and they go right between the eyes of the industry but at the same time they can also do stories about social issues that are quite uplifting that are very positive about people who transcend difficulties sluice sports so I think there's maybe a 3rd category of this journalism that doesn't get acknowledged enough when we think about hard hitting journalism I could has to make you feel like you've spent 20 minutes eating spinach Yeah I think that that's I think that that's the case and and and to Karen and Laura's point I think that things happen in the world of sports. Which you as a journalist are obligated to report on in some fashion or another I'll give you 2 very very quick examples the n.r.a. Had a sponsorship with with a with a motor motor car race while I was an editor. After. Shooting there was the race drop them as a sponsor you have to report on that that happened it's a fact the president went to the World Series this year and the when he was introduced between innings he was he was cheered by some and booed very loudly by others and Fox decided not to put that on the broadcast and that became an issue you know I mean you you have to decide what you're going to deal with when it's when things happen because things are going to happen I'm sorry Professor I hate to interrupt you but just to clarify you're talking about the Fox broadcast network which was airing the World Series not the Fox News Channel right correct yes that's right sorry so so so it it isn't that journalists are even necessarily like we're going to ruin sports for all the sports fans today if that stuff happens and it has a political implication and you'd be foolish and look silly to ignore it. And I do think that there is sort of a 3rd category of stories which are just simply fascinating stories and they can be and they actually even in this time a cross political lines and it isn't just tear jerker stories of you know somebody who overcame adversity to win a title or something like that they can be interesting and in many other ways there's a great Netflix series that I really love called called losers and it's about all of these athletes and people who at the critical moment in a game failed and it's about what happened in their lives afterward and you know I spoiler alert it doesn't ruin your life necessarily so and there are lessons to be learned from loss as well as victory so there is there are other stories which give you information to live your life which are told by sports journalist Anthony e-mailed the major issue in all of news including sports news is ownership. When I hear about the venture capitalists or hedge fund owners of a news outlet I assume management is interested in money not good journalism this is why staffs are cut and information takes a backseat Laura I'm guessing you might agree with that in large part and I would love to just talk about this for a minute I think the increase in private equity ownership in media is a huge problem not just for sports media if you look at the Denver Post what happened out there private equity or a vulture capital firm gutted the news room that the people who work there ended up starting a new media organization that has a shared ownership model and I do think that a worker collective or shared ownership or isa model for media companies that either give consumers who you who rely on and use that news or the workers who do it having a more ownership and more government governance over a media organization is definitely a promising. Model for digital media companies going forward. There are some in some of the larger outlets who've also commented on the difficulties in terms of covering the sports that they also broadcast Here's a quick clip from Max Kellerman who's a commentator on e.s.p.n. Here's part of what he said back in 2017 I'm broadly sympathetic to those who even when they watch this show say look I watch the words to escape this kind of stuff the real world I want distraction I get that the old saying is more show should be like a bar you know you don't want to talk religion or politics because it can be divisive I am sympathetic to that but these are strange and dangerous times and it's more important than ever that citizens get informed and follow their consciences that's E.S.P.N.'s Max Kellerman speaking in 2017 though Karen I would contrast that with an e-mail from James James emailed Can your guest speak on what happened to Jamelle hill at e.s.p.n. And how they pushed her out now just by way of background before I let you chime in Karen back in 2017 and September 27th teen Jamil Hill tweeted a series of tweets about President Trump including describing him as a white supremacist e.s.p.n. Issued a statement that said that that does not reflect the position of e.s.p.n. And that her actions were inappropriate he'll double down on them and said No I meant what I said White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders demanded an apology President Trump criticized the network as well eventually e.s.p.n. Suspended Jamail Hill for 2 weeks after that she moved on from anchoring the 6 o'clock edition of Sports Center to working on e.s.p.n. As website the undefeated which deals with the intersection of sports and race and a few months after that she left e.s.p.n. To join the Atlantic so with that as background Karen how would you respond to James All right so I have I have a perspective on this that is maybe a little more nuanced than what you're looking for but but this isn't as n.p.r. We do nuance very very well go at it Ok Ok so you almost have to ask yourself but 1st of all none of this. It has gone down the way it went down if the president hadn't responded to Jamil Hill's tweets right so so that it is involved in all of this and there are a lot of issues about race and agency and all these things that are wrapped up into this conversation but for me you almost have to define what Jamal Hill was was she a commentator for e.s.p.n. Or was she a journalist for e.s.p.n. Because as a journalist I wouldn't be allowed to tweet that the president is a racist I wouldn't be allowed to put a political poster on my wall or on my lawn I I'm not even supposed to sign petitions and that's not because I work in sports that's because I consider myself a journalist so I think it's really interesting because I don't think anyone should ever be told that they should stick to sports I think that that is a false statement however as a journalist I avoid put putting my political views out there I'm Joshua Johnson You're listening to one a. Professor Affleck what about you what do you make of the Jamelle Hill controversy at e.s.p.n. Well one of the things that I've always noted about that controversy is that when the final straw hit and and the events occurred that eventually separated her from from e.s.p.n. Her the tweet wasn't about President Trump It was about Yuri Jones of the Del is cowboys and arguing that if you wanted to hurt the Cowboys you would boycott their sponsors and so I think that that's hitting sports where really lives. So I just know that but I'm largely in agreement with with with Karen generally I think that . The advice I give to my students is you really need to. Get a really strong sense of how little people care what you think personally so whether I'm a Republican or a Democrat and I'm covering you know the nitty lions it doesn't really matter to my audience they don't really care about me so you know what. I'm not care by not sharing your political views and you know that will go a long way to. To helping you cover things fairly and let everybody have their say and their shot that's how I try to use situations like Jamal Hill let me run through a few of your comments in the few minutes we have left Stuart emailed I'm not a sports fan but I find H.B.O.'s Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel very compelling all the same Catherine emailed doesn't comprehensive coverage in sports have the same role as in movies and t.v. We hear about the me too movement actors and actresses paying bribes surrounding college admissions I don't understand why sports would be so isolated from such coverage in journalism and Antonio emailed I think it's worth noting that sport is not always a choice often the alternative is so dire that individuals will put themselves in harm's way in an effort to better themselves their families and their communities I think that they will alter what might normally be a regular life in order to create a better one Laura I'm really intrigued by Antonio's point I think it's a reminder that we're not actually sports fans were fans of the sports players you're not a fan of baseball you're a fan of a team you're not a fan of tennis you're a fan of a player you know a fan of m.m.a. You're a fan of a fighter these are people stories at their heart. Yeah I mean I think you can be a fan of a sport as well and enjoy the sport but yeah I think that's an interesting perspective I I would just like to go back before we run out of time and say I have to disagree with my steam panelists about the myth of objectivity I think the idea that journalists can or even should totally divorce their perspectives and thoughts and opinions from their coverage is not only not possible but not valuable I think everyone has opinions I think those opinions are valuable especially reporters who dedicate their entire careers to covering you know a certain topic and I don't think having a perspective is bad and you know I think that this is something that's starting to shift and I personally think that it's a positive development professor I got to say I agree with Laura I think that there's room for all kinds of journalism I don't like infusing opinion and personal politics into what I do but to say that no one should and that that should just be the law of the land know Professor something about that doesn't sound right well you might be you might be taking what I'm saying a step too far. I think there's something to the idea that we're in a moment where if a news organization has a political viewpoint it should and should should go that way what I am trying to get 20 year old students to avoid doing is writing a story like it's a blog post from the friends so that they're not saying you know I've always loved so and so and always thought that they were a great human being and so when they called the touchdown pass I thought that was great because he's a great guy that's what I don't know I don't know you like you know I think the 1st person is a scorch you know if you know if you're you I don't want to get into a situation where there's fault equivalency where you know you go and you find one . Somebody says about you know. In the world to use a ridiculous example but you know in the Larry Nasser case it isn't one it isn't he said she said you know it isn't. Well 250 people say you abused them he says he didn't who knows you know that isn't that isn't what I'm talking about it's it's careful work but it isn't inserting yourself into the story unnecessarily I also think Can I just say if you actually think we'll sports journalists are always asked their opinions like that's one thing that's really strange about sports journalism is you're constantly being asked Who's going to win the game how is this often it's going to stack up against that defense and of course you know we get asked more important questions like Should college players be compensated right so I'm not saying that we don't have opinions and that some of those opinions aren't lete political but I'm saying that I tried to drop Personally I try to draw a little bit of a line between what I share of my personal opinions and what I try to keep to myself That's Karen given the executive producer of only a game from w.b. You are and n.p.r. Karen thanks for talking to us thank you Laura Wagner is a senior staff writer for Vice and former staff writer at Deadspin Thanks Laura thanks for having me and Professor John Affleck tonight chair of sports journalism and Society at Penn State's Bellisario College of communications Thanks Professor thanks everybody remember this program is on Instagram you can follow us at the one a show this conversation was produced by Chris just on 0 to learn more about him and the rest of our team visit us online at the one a dot for this program comes to you from w am you part of American University in Washington distributed by n.p.r. Until we meet again I'm Joshua Johnson thank you for your questions and your thoughts and as always thanks for listening this is one and. Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from the estate of Joan b. Kroc whose bequest serves as an enduring investment in the future of public radio and seeks to help n.p.r. Be the model for high quality journalism in the 21st century from little passports their new science junior subscription for kids aims to inspire curiosity designed to bring projects to life while utilizing new science concepts more at little passports dot com and from the listeners who support this n.p.r. Station. One has spent the year going across America look how low the river I didn't know I was black and till I came to America in Lincoln the war anybody think of China does not have our farmers best interest at heart that's the problem what have we learned from our travels across America this year what more can we look forward to in 2020 next time. Bob Hope is best remembered as a comedian who made a major contribution entertaining American troops during World War 2 But he was also a movie star and his films included some of those. Celebrating his legacy on the next episode. This is 89 point one. A listener supported service at the University of Arkansas at . News and culture for Arkansas show your support by becoming as the staining them back. Door. From the view h y y in Philadelphia I'm Terry Gross with fresh air today Conan O'Brien has made changes he's changed the format and length of his late night show and he's entered the podcast world with a popular interview show he's had an unusual career of highs and lows he was an unknown when he started hosting N.B.C.'s late night he was ridiculed but held on inherited the Tonight Show and lost it when Leno returned just listening to you summarize it right now I went through 7 episodes of p.t.s.d. Just listening to your. Just listening to the summary that I'm just I'm completely drenched in sweat right now and in need of medication to talk about how his career and this comedy have been driven in part by anxiety and opera swayed him to sing and play a song that meant a lot to him when he was 1st learning guitar. First news. Live from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying the u.s. House is taking its next steps toward voting on 2 articles of impeachment being brought against President Donald Trump N.P.R.'s Claudio the Seles reports the Judiciary Committee plans to hold public hearings over 2 days to approve the abuse of power and obstruction of Congress charges Democrats are expected to approve impeachment articles of abuse of power and obstruction of Congress the House Judiciary Committee will meet at 7 pm to allow all of its 41 members to make remarks the panelists slated to meet again Thursday morning to complete its debate in approve the articles that would set up a potentially historic vote on the House floor to impeach the president next week lawmakers said they wanted the articles to focus on their findings that the president abuses office by seeking foreign interference for the 2020 Alexion quantity Selous n.p.r. News Washington President Trump denies any leverage military aid to pressure Ukraine into investigating his political rival Joe Biden for corruption there was no pressure Trump has repeatedly said the president says he expects to be exonerated in a u.s. Senate trial next month the Republicans are in control in the u.s. Senate the g.o.p. Led Senate Judiciary Committee is currently hearing testimony about mistakes the f.b.i. Made in its investigation of links between the Trump 2016 campaign and Russia's interference in the election here's Republican chairman Lindsey Graham would have been here is not a few irregularities what happened here is the system failed people of the highest level of our government. Took the law in their own hands referencing a report he released 2 days ago Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz cites many basic and fundamental errors but in his testimony Horowitz says his office all.