News tomorrow morning 5 denied on k u a r. This is Fresh Air I'm Terry Gross after Donald Trump was elected but before he was inaugurated Buzz Feed published a leaked document that became known as the steel dossier a series of memos written by former British intelligence officer Christopher Steele suggesting Russia had been cultivating supporting and assisting Trump and that according to several sources Russia had compromising information that could be used to blackmail trump this dossier had been commissioned by fusion g.p.s. a Private research company providing research for law firms and corporations as well as opposition research for political candidates fusion was 1st hired to investigate Trump during the primary by the Republican news site The Washington Free Beacon after Trump won the primary the law firm representing Hillary Clinton's campaign and the Democratic National Committee started funding fusions research into trump my guest are the founders of fusing g.p.s. Glenn Simpson and Peter Fritsch their former Wall Street Journal reporters some of the Russians who surfaced in the Trump investigation where people Simpson and Fitch had reported on at the Wall Street Journal while investigating Russian corruption and organized crime Simpson and Fitch have written a new book called crime in progress about their investigation into trump its impact and Republican attempts to discredit fusion g.p.s. And the steel dossier plants Simpson Peter French welcome to Fresh Air What were some of the findings in your report and in the steel dossier that you considered to be the most important early warnings of Donald Trump's ties to Russia. The truth is steel came into this project about 9 months when we started looking at Donald Trump and his relationship to Russia as part of a much broader project which was looking at Donald Trump's business career. As has been reported we 1st started working for about. Wilkins about 9 months in we started working with Chris Steele now we saw a lot in the early going that caused us to have concerns about downed trance relationship with Russia 1st we saw his relationship with Felix Satre Felix Ater is a Russian emigre to the u.s. Who was working with Donald Trump and importantly work with him in the f l group which developed among other properties the Trump So you know this is an individual who was went to prison for slicing someone's face open with a margarita glass who later then was convicted of stock fraud this is all in the ninety's so that caught our attention to see him with a business card occupying an office and Trump Tower and carrying a business card with Donald Trump's company name on it then we found a number of properties inside Trump Tower itself that were occupied by convicted an alleged organized crime figures from Russia you know we also just saw a pattern of investments coming into Donald Trump's robberies and to Don Trump personally the other sort of interesting data point in the early going was the transaction in Palm Beach involving a Russian oligarch by the name of Dmitri rebel of love and part of my pronunciation he is a poet hash magnate is a fertilizer sort of king of Russia he bought Donald Trump's mansion in the mid 2000 for about $95000000.00 when it was on the market for $45000000.00 That was a really suspicious transaction to us so anyway there's some some of that and just some of our research will regarding his business lead us to want to know more about Russia which is how we started working with Christopher Steele and what was Christopher Steele doing when you approached him and who tells how Christopher still is for people who don't know Chris and I were introduced around 2010 and we met through us a mutual friends who knew of our shared. Kristen Russian corruption and kleptocracy . Chris is a Russia specialist we are real generalists fusion and so when this project began moving towards Russia and we began to feel like there were some really significant only answered questions about what he don't trump was doing in Russia and why he seemed to be involved with so many figures from the former Soviet Union and we began to work with the Democrats in the spring of 2016 we decided to ask Chris to help us out and to see if we could poke around in Russia in Moscow to try to get answers to some of those questions and he had worked for British intelligence at the Russian desk so you know God of course was the the term that these there is the lead Russian ist. He sensually ran the Russia desk at headquarters in London after having served previously in Moscow around the time of the fall of the Soviet Union and he is a fluent Russian speaker and reader it's essentially his life's work so just to get straight how your work has been funded both by Republican interests and Democratic interests just briefly explain for us the source of your funding through this whole project that you've had investigating tramp Russia. In this late summer of 2015 I connected with a Republican political operative who I knew was going to probably be involved in the presidential campaign in the primaries and I asked him if he would be interested in research on Donald Trump and he said yes that eventually led to us being hired formally by a newspaper Russian called the Washington Free Beacon which is a conservative website. And so we worked for this conservative website doing his research for about 7 months. As the primaries wound down and it became obvious that Donald Trump was going to be the nominee. They indicated to us that the project was coming to an end and we begin to think that given what we found out about down Trump and the concerns that it raised we should probably continue to do this work for the other side and so who hired you from the Democrats so we were hired eventually by Perkins kui a law firm and an attorney their name to Mark Elias mark represents both the Democratic National Committee and Hillary the Hillary Clinton campaign of the time he is also in that law firm represents a lot of Democratic politicians so let's go back to work with Christopher Steele the former British intelligence officer who was a Russia expert answers here he compiled a series of memos they came to be known as the steel dossier tell us some of the things in those memos that you think have been most important in revealing information that was validated about Russia or Russia connections to. What I think the single most important thing becomes those dossier which is really in the 1st memo was that. The Kremlin was planning running an operation to elect Donald Trump the president no states and it was a big operation that involves a lot of different aspects it was very deliberately designed to elect Trump and not just to sow discord in the Us political system although that was a secondary purpose that was really right on target it was an incredibly precious and observation that the us government did not reach until months later. And so much of the. Summer of 2016 we spent trying to stand there up and raise concerns raise alarms with other people who. Spent a lot of attacks against Christians work for being unsubstantiated but it doesn't really. Get said enough that in this one central point he was dead right to use a metaphor Terry that are a colleague of ours likes to use he predicted an attack on Pearl Harbor the Pearl Harbor attack happened in Raptors and then in hindsight a lot of people said well you got the number of zeros wrong you got the direction they were coming in from Iran therefore the document is somehow impugned now that Doc it was never meant to meant to be read as a dossier it was a series of contemporaneous intelligence reports right which collectively tell that important story there are other important aspects of these memos that have stood up quite well. They identify about a half dozen people associated with the Trump campaign or the president one way or another who later turned out to in fact be key figures in the service relationship between Donald Trump and the crim. What's one or 2 of the things in the Dostie that prove not to be trail. Well as of right now we don't have anything in the dossier that we think has been proven to be untrue various investigations have found that certain things couldn't be proven or disproven. The thing that people most often point to as supposedly disproven Is this a meeting between some trumped campaign officials and Russian spies in or around Prague in the late summer of 2016 that has repeatedly been denied but one of the Pete. Who issued the most researchers denials was the president's lawyer Michael Cohen who is currently serving time in prison and he was he sued us actually for libel and then shortly thereafter his office was raided by the f.b.i. It's it's important to remember you had said that he was one of the people at that meeting that's what the memo said that's what the memo said yes thank you very I was saying it's important to member that much of the evidence of these matters lies in a foreign country beyond the reach of u.s. Law enforcement and certainly the reach of Robert Muller on the Michael Cohen Prague visit in particular what the mole report actually reports is that Michael Cohen himself claims to have not been there it. Has gone and said the matter just has not been settled if you're just joining us my guests are Glenn Simpson and Peter Fritsch the co-founders of fusion g.p.s. They're the authors of the new book crime in progress inside the steel dossier and the Fusion g.p.s. Investigation of Donald Trump We'll be right back this is Fresh Air. Hey you know you've been hearing and reading the news all day so what are you getting out of it are you smarter more informed better prepared for your dinner party later tonight Well the takeaway has you covered. We asked the tough questions we hold lawmakers accountable and if something just doesn't seem right we ask how did we get here if they take away with me. Weekdays at noon on $89.00 k u a r. This is Fresh Air and if you're just joining us my guests are Glenn Simpson and Peter Fritsch co-founders of fusion g.p.s. And author of the new book crime in progress inside the steel da ca and the Fusion g.p.s. Investigation of Donald Trump. The most famous part or infamous part of the so-called steal dossier the series of memos that Christopher Steele assembled for you investigating Russia's interference in our election and Donald Trump's ties to Russia. Was the so-called p tape and this is this is. The tape that several sources told Christopher Steele exists there's no confirmation that this tape exists explain what the p. Tape is for somebody who hasn't been following the rights of the beauty of as you put it there's a recounting of source reporting from Moscow that alleges that Donald Trump and 2013 while he was attending the Miss Universe pageant that he sponsored. In collaboration with a Russian oligarch. Was in his hotel suite in Moscow at the Ritz Carlton. And a was sent to a pair of prostitutes who performed a year or nation show. On top of the bed in the presidential suite at the Ritz Carlton Hotel. In the purpose being to defile the bed in which Barack and Michelle Obama slept in years earlier. Now yes you mentioned several sources. We can't get into sources and methods as we know them but we have strong evidence in the reliability and the well placed or in nature of these sources and there were Don't fewer than 7 for that particular. So obviously this is the most famous part of the so-called lost. And there was some internal debate. Chris Stills firm and then subsequently our firm about sort of what to do about this in terms of the fact that it was. Going to going to distract people from some of the other information that was in the report. And in fact history of this is now shown that. Some of the denials that Donald Trump has made about this period. Were false. That 1st officially denied this initially he told James Comey that he didn't spend the night in my house in the hotel that night that turned out to not be true. So there was a conflict between both of you about whether to include the this allegation in your report or not and I want you know that's yeah that's not you know Glenn was alluding to there was a dispute I wouldn't call it a dispute there was a discussion inside or bas that Christopher Steele's firm with his partner who is also a fellow British intelligence officer a former British intelligence officer about whether to include that anecdote and not in the end Chris who is the Russian is thought it was very important to include . For the sake of verisimilitude in the reporting right he wanted to accurately reflect what sources were saying and he did not and he thought it was really important to note that the Russian government could have hard evidence of compromising on the presidential candidates and this is evidence that Christopher Steele feared could be used to basically blackmail Donna Graham correct and in our office we felt that this information wasn't all that significant and could only cause a lot of problems because. It wasn't really something I had much application to the press. That actually have been these kinds of unconfirmable stories about someone's sexual past that just doesn't really have much cation in a political context. So we were sort of stuck with this information when it became apparent that there was other things going on that involved a possible conspiracy against the United States. And we decided to turn this information over to the f.b.i. We felt that we did not want to manipulate Chris's reporting or edit it in any way because that would be a bigger problem so we just give my gave him everything and that's what you decided to that's why you decided to have this deal dossier be a separate document from your findings with there without you editing it all like this is this is what he found this is what he heard from sources. And that will stand alone right it's important to point out that the decision to approach the f.b.i. Was Chris's you know we have ceded we defer to him he is the intelligence perhaps discuss that decision because this is a real turning point in your investigation and then in the hall larger Russia investigate right so when in early July Chris arranged to meet with a contact of his at the f.b.i. In Europe. Some someone he knew from previous work he asked us if that was a good idea and we didn't disagree it was it's important that. It's clear that this is Chris's decision as an intelligence professional so he had that meeting in July 5th of 2016 with the f.b.i. And read them in to some of the information he found in his 1st report so I'm going out to you the f.b.i. Was also independently investigating Russia's interference in the election and possible ties between Donald Trump and Russia. But Christopher Steele Yes go ahead well this is an amazing point in the story which is that we now know we've now pieced together the beginnings of the f.b.i. Investigation juxtaposed against the beginnings of Chris's interactions with the Justice Department the f.b.i. And it turns out that it was almost simultaneous but the 1st information to get there was not our information it was the information about a low level campaign staffer bragging that the Russians had hacked the Democrats so who was that. So there was reporting that from Alexander Downer who's an Australian diplomat in the u.k. Who had had a meeting with George Papadopoulos who was in the trunk campaign as a junior. Foreign policy aide. In which. George Packer Apple has bragged about having Russian intelligence on dirt on Hillary Clinton Alexander Downer reported that to the us government which is where which is the foundation of the subsequent investigation called cross-fire and this is how investigations begin is that. Both the Government of Australia and us. Reacted to the revelations that the Russians had hacked the d.n.c. And so essentially the f.b.i. Had information coming in from 2 different independent sources around the same time that corroborated each other to some extent in investigations that's actually how they get going is when information comes from more than one place ours came in slightly after the information from the straits you never intended the dossier to be public as as you said and you both didn't directly go to the f.b.i. That was Christopher Steele who did that but you did start approaching journalists why did you start approaching journalists What did you want. Tell them did you want them to do with the information. Initially in the summer of 2016 we were concerned as certain people around the truck campaign in the trunk campaign were questionable character Paul mean a Ford was someone that we knew a lot about that we believe had probably violated various u.s. Laws and might be involved in corruption and money laundering so we talked to reporters about him and others such as quarter page who seem to be. You know interacting with the Russians in a suspicious way on a trip to Russia so these are people that we talk to reporters about and we encourage them to look into a little bit more Same with Michael Flynn you know as it turned out all 3 people were people that needed to be asked to gated and 2 of them have now pled guilty to crimes so the initial conversations with reporters were about some of these characters in the trunk campaign in the Trump Organization later with a movie became more concerned that there was a government Russian government attack on our country that was unprecedented in scale and scope we tried to raise awareness with national security reporters investigative reporters not so much to affect the outcome of the election fact specifically not to affect the election but because we thought that this was something we needed to raise awareness about because it was a huge digital Pearl Harbor against our country my guess or Glenn Simpson and Peter French co-founders of fusion g.p.s. Their new book is called crime in progress we'll talk more after a break and just in Chang will review the new film knives out I'm Terry Gross and this is Fresh Air. The Mubarak family foundation supports w.h.y. Wise fresh air and its commitment to sharing ideas and encouraging meaningful conversation support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from little passports their new science junior subscription for kids aims to inspire curiosity designed to bring projects to life while utilizing new science concepts more at little passports dot com. And from Whole Foods Market offering colors and flavors of the season with seasonal produce holiday desserts and Chef created menus Whole Foods Market colors the classics. 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This is Fresh Air I'm Terry Gross let's get back to my interview with Glenn Simpson and Peter Fritsch co-founders a fusion g.p.s. a Private research company which did opposition research on. Candidate Donald Trump and commissioned what became known as the Steele dasi a which uncovered connections between Donald Trump and Russia and cited several sources that said Russia had a compromising video of Trump with prostitutes a golden showers a video that could be used to blackmail him the Da was written by former British intelligence officer Christopher Steele who was commissioned to do the research by fusion g.p.s. Simpson and Fritsch are both former Wall Street Journal reporters now they have a new book about their investigation into Trump and Russia called crime in progress they say their report and the steel Das Yeah they were never intended to be made public but the Da Ca was leaked and published by Buzz Feed when Buzz Feed actually published the DAs Yeah you were furious and you were kind of afraid of what the consequences might be you had put Christopher Steele in front of journalists already. So why were you so upset when the dossier was actually published by bus fare well we didn't put Christopher Steele before journalists and on the record where he spoke on background as a former Western intelligence official that's the 1st point you know the 2nd point the publication. Which was of course not our decision and by any way shape or form could have compromised sources and methods of them under redacted document. Chris did not have any kind of warning to prepare for its release and it was hugely dangerous in our view to his his source network this is become more common knowledge now in the wake of the 2016 or action that Russia the Russian intelligence services have a overseas assassination program. But it's well known to us in particular Chris that this is as it is known to the intelligence services for a long. Time. We've seen now that they actually are willing to use chemical weapons against people in the United Kingdom. Question memory about when Buzz Feed published this deal dossier. Buzz Feed published the dossier on. January 10th 2017. So it was after the election it could no longer affect the outcome of the election that's correct but it was before the inauguration so. What we say in the book is that the person who has now admitted to leaking that r.c.a. Was apparently trying to do was to thwart the swearing in of Trump and. He believed that if this information got out it might lead to. Some how to Trump's inaugural being put on the old the ultimate hell mary pass and ill document to David Kramer to carry on an airplane so he asked us to hand it to him which Glenn did. Are you for the express sorry for the express. Purpose of handing the document to John McCain for the purpose of approaching James Comey about it so the purpose was to get the document to McCain and then to the f.b.i. Not to leak it to the press that's right so has this aide admitted that he was the one who leaked it or is this Yes Ok so there was a Russian cyber mogul who sued Buzz Feed for libel and David was required to testify and he. Alternately acknowledge that it was he who provided the document to both of you and other people do you find it ironic that it was an aide of John McCain's who made the dusty a public and in the hopes of preventing Donald Trump from actually getting annoyed to read it and it's Lindsey Graham. One of the Cain's closest friends who's been one of the leaders trying to question the Malory poor trying to question the research that you did and supporting Donald Trump I think it's ironic I think it's hypocritical and I think it's depressing that a lot of people who know better or now standing up for don't drop So yes I think you know what the Republicans paid for the 1st half of our investigation and now they're claiming it was all a Democratic hoax it doesn't make sense what Ray let's just stop right there because the Republicans who paid for the 1st part of your investigation were people who are opposing try Trump they were Republicans but they wanted another Republican to win the primary not trump right so this is my point which is that a lot of Republicans who said that Trump would be a disaster for the Republican Party and the nation are now defending Donald Trump it's a porter remember that Lindsey Graham. As John McCain and others have recounted. Agreed with John McCain's decision to approach James comedy the coming of this document Fast forward to the moment in January 1st he's now camera views in March where were Lindsey Graham along with Senator Charles Grassley make a criminal referral to the f.b.i. And of the dark pop art department of justice for Christopher Steele it's an outrage. So let's talk about what's been happening more recently and that's the impeachment inquiry Republicans cited your report 32 times in the impeachment inquiry. They were saying you colluded with the Russians why don't you describe what you heard Republicans say about you during the impeachment inquiry the Republicans cranked up their fog machine as they've been doing since the dossier came out to deflect attention away from the real issue here which is the extent to which Donald Trump was in a relationship with Vladimir Putin's Russia they have used lies and deflection to attack the messengers and again not transact the facts which is of course what they're doing to the whistleblower and to any other good people who try and call the president to account it's a fairly for construction of an alternate reality that is channeled through various propaganda mechanisms including Fox News. And it's it's not meant to be taken as true by anyone other than the minority of people who still support Donald Trump. As we have been saying in recent days. When they accuse us of cooking up. A hoax to entrap and damage Donald Trump in. Some kind of secret operation with the Ukrainian Teligent services they're not confused they're deliberately lying it's just that it's just a made up story designed to confuse the public Rudolph Giuliani has gone so far as to accuse Glenn of going to Ukraine and 2016 and working with the craniums to cook up the dossier that is just a lie well when you actually run into Rudy Giuliani on a plane recently and told him You've never been in Ukraine. That's correct I've never been to Ukraine I've never been to Russia. We're getting very tired of sort of the more dramatic deliberate lies about us so we've decided to begin to correct the record Rudy Giuliani also claims that we set up the infamous meeting between the Trump campaign and the Russians in June of 2016 it's well established from multiple investigations that Rudy Giuliani is well aware of that we had nothing to do a setting that meeting in that meeting was set up by Donald Trump Jr and Russia Ok let's take a short break here and when we come back we'll talk about how fusion g.p.s. Was criticized during the impeachment inquiry by Republicans so if you're just joining us my guests are Glenn Simpson and Peter French co-founders a fusion g.p.s. Their new book is called crime in progress inside the steel dossier and the Fusion g.p.s. Investigation of Donald Trump will be right back this is Fresh Air. First class to show the piece that states get ready to support your highest heels telling us that as you step just walking the red carpet this week we're on a plane and spoiler alert Riaz on a plane to snap judgment storytelling with a Do not miss. Saturday afternoon at 2 and Tuesday. One. Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from Progressive Insurance offering snapshot a device that adjusts insurance rates based on safe driving habits now that's progressive learn more at progressive dot com or 1800 progressive and from the John d. And Catherine t. MacArthur Foundation recognizing exceptionally creative individuals this year's MacArthur Fellows and more information are at mac found dot org. This is Fresh Air and if you're just joining us my guests are Glenn Simpson and Peter Fritsch they're the co-founders of fusion g.p.s. And authors of the new book crime in progress inside the steel dossier and the Fusion g.p.s. Investigation of Donald Trump. So you started off as a journalist I mean you were journalist for years and then when you were both based in Brussels when you were an investigative reporter still and Peter you were his editor there to have that right that's right yeah so you were investigative journalist like for years for the Wall Street Journal and then you decide decided to form this business fusion g.p.s. And basically do investigative research for hire. And I want you to talk a little bit about the different standards being a journalist versus being research for hire and your clients have included not only like you know Republicans and Democrats but also you know large corporations legal firms so. Talk about the differences in the way the way you went about your work but also in the standards that you would use for. You know the ethical standards. The business is designed to use journalistic methods. And so socially in terms of standards very similar newspapers. Talk to people in this group or talk to people they don't always know whether those people are telling the truth or whether they're accurate they report what people say frequently what people say turns out to be wrong but it's still in the newspapers so we do very similar stuff at Fusion. Can we describe some of what you've been doing as opposition research. We do very little political research actually but it's even opposition research for the corporate climb. That you have isn't that well I wouldn't call it opposition research it's more a understanding a and information set right so there are a lot of complicated disputes in the context of last year with lawsuits obviously but also influence networks right there's a lot of people who want to understand why there are issues you know moving a certain way through Washington or through the courts what we try and do is use public records to map and explain those relationships that really is the core of what we do and does it matter who your client is like if your client is a corporate client and you actually suspect that they were in the wrong would you still represent them. It really would depend on the context in a litigation context you're generally work for a law firm. So it's not really possible to prejudge situation between who is right who's wrong that's the purpose of the lawsuit but also go back to another thing that we do. Is decision support so we help people to manage information and to parse information and make decisions about what to do with it so sometimes that is corporate strategy sometimes it's whether to file a lawsuit or not to follow us or would settle because there's a lot of decision making you know relies on quality information I mean there's one example which you know we talk about in the book which maybe is useful here we talk about very briefly our work for Theron knows the blood testing company run by Elizabeth Holmes which turned out to be a massive fraud what we were actually doing for their notes was looking at on behalf of a law firm we were looking at the their competitors question lab court the do I believe in lab test and if you doctor orders a lab test you go into one of those labs and we were analyzing the key to him whistleblower suits against that. It's those firms and trying to understand what their business model was you know as a journalist you're committed to just like finding the facts reporting what you found and not being concerned with you know taking sides in fact you're not supposed to take sides. But you know when you're in you know critical of your reporting for you know like the Wall Street Journal The Washington Post The New York Times it's about you know being fair and being neutral in finding the facts but when your reporting. Is paid for by a particular side Republican or Democrat or when your reporting is paid for by a particular legal group or by a company it's about getting information for that side so was it a difficult transition for you to make and do you feel like you're no longer you know just on the side of. Fact finding and truth when when when you're doing that when you have an interested party paying for information. Glenn will have a view on this too but quite the opposite I mean I think we or we place and as higher premium as we ever did on facts you know in the context of working for law firms or major companies you know you can't you can't report anything but facts and sometimes you don't need just 2 sources to get it or and anonymous sources you need paper and you need document not documentary evidence and that's not changing our lives at all. There's a misapprehension about what we do we're not a p.r. Firm we don't sell spin our clients was reliable information and that is the business that we're in so it really has a lot of similarities to journalism it is not. Cooked out there that we don't sell that if you saw one of our reports you would mistake it for an academic paper. Have you ever turned down a client. Yes we have we've turned down many highs the irony of the Russia affair is that it is a part of the world where we generally don't do a lot of work. Numers clients from the former Soviet Union have approached us that we have turned away we actually forced clients to obsess submit to our methodology which is you know if you have a preconceived outcome in mind and you're looking for specifically a media outcome where the wrong people you know well obviously our peer group is our journalist we have a lot of friends in that business but if you don't want to get to the bottom of you know the facts that who are the wrong people for you. Is there any information you can share with us about what you're finding about foreign interference in the next presidential election foreign interference in our elections actually has a fairly long history it's just not something that a lot of people know much about or focused on. In 2016 we believe at least 3 countries interfered in the election Turkey was one Israel was one Russia was one. It's possible there were others we expect that in 2020 will see that at least 3 or 4. Countries or messaging over social media and using other methods to try to influence the outcome before I wrap up I like to ask is there information that you found while you were researching. Trump campaign ties to Russia and Russia's interference in our election that you don't think enough attention has been paid to you. Yes things that we came across ourselves that didn't really involve Chris deal was the Russian infiltration of the National Rifle Association which was something that I brought to the. And of the Justice Department and then later raised in my congressional testimony. And that has turned out to be a big issue although it's still not fully investigated eventually criminal charges were brought against a young Russian woman who came to states and be friended top officials at the n.r.a. The n.r.a. Maria buton are right and so there's a word or problem here that the Russians Sapir to have infiltrated some of the affiliated Republican and conservative groups in the inner is the clearest example of that we think that there is a much broader effort by the brush and to infiltrate and influence conservative organizations the other thing that I think still is left outstanding that we spent some time talking about in the book is extent to which Donald Trump's overseas ventures have been have not been parsed properly either by Robert Muller or anyone else we've done our best to map some of the Russian influence and money coursing through projects in Panama Azerbaijan Toronto etc you know someone needs to actually think about compromise in that current financial compromise and spend some time talking about that in the book. I want to thank both of you for attacking with us when Simpson Peter French Thank you so much thank you. And Peter Fritsch are the founders of fusion and. Their new book is called crime in progress after we take a short break Justin Chang will review the new film knives out I'm Terry Gross and this is Fresh Air All Things Considered goes where you are and takes you places you've never thought to go right now the wildfire threat in the Pacific Northwest marks 10 years since Katrina. Eric Garner in New York Tamir Rice in Cleveland in Kentucky today a county clerk who refused to issue marriage licenses to every story tomorrow afternoon. $3.00 to $630.00. Coming up on the next science cafe Little Rock climate change that's a big topic and a chance for you to call in with your questions my guests will be Maureen McClung associate professor of biology at Hendrix College we'll talk about what the science says and where we are headed and call in as this Tuesday evening at 6 o 5 only on k y a r 89 point one. This is Fresh Air although best known for directing Star Wars the last jet I the writer director Ryan Johnson has long been a fan of murder mysteries his 2005 debut brick was a film to watch set in a contemporary American high school his new movie knives out is an Agatha Christie style murder mystery with an ensemble that includes Daniel Craig Christopher Plummer Chris Evans and Jamie Lee Curtis critic Justin Chang has this review as someone who's devoured more than his fair share of Agatha Christie I have long been saddened by Hollywood's general neglect of the classical detective story the kind of clever parlor trick entertainment where a murder is committed in a remote country house and suspicion falls on a closed circle of suspects every so often a director will put his unique spin on the genre as Robert Altman did with Gosford Park and Quentin Tarantino did with the hateful 8 Kenneth Branagh is presently directing and starring in a new wave of Hecuba Paro adaptations though his middling take on murder on the Orient Express didn't leave me wondering who done it so much as why bother. But no filmmaker has done more to revive the spirit of the form or made it seem more rife with possibilities than Ryan Johnson has with knives out this deliriously entertaining comic thriller brings together an all star cast and an ingeniously plotted crime story whose every twist catches you by surprise but it also does something more it takes a genre often dismissed as creaky or cosy and uses it to say something powerful and urgent about contemporary class inequality and the moral rot at the heart of this large and obscenely wealthy family Christopher Plummer plays Harlan thrum be a bestselling mystery novelist who is already dead at the start someone slit his throat in the middle of the night and was almost certainly a member of his family all of whom were staying at his ramshackle Victorian house for his 85th birthday party Johnson delights in playing out the usual whodunit conventions whether he's drawing out the piercing scream of the housekeeper who discovers Harlan's body or lining up the suspects as they're interviewed by 2 police detectives played by Le Keith Stanfield and Noah Segan but things really start cooking when a southern accent to Daniel Craig shows up as Ben Wa luck a famous private detective who is conducting his own investigation into Harlan's death in one scene Harlan's daughter Linda a splendidly biting Jamie Lee Curtis tries to find out who hired blog and why Mr Blank I know who you are I read your profile in The New Yorker I found it delightful I just buried my 85 year old father who committed suicide why are you here. Me here at the behest of a client. Who. Cannot But let me assure you that my presence will be part of management and you will find me over suspect full. Passive observer. Of the truth nearly everyone in the family was financially dependent on Harlan and as the actors play them they're in amusingly loathsome scheming bunch Linda has a philandering husband played by an oily Dawn Johnson and a black sheep son ransom played by a cocky Chris Evans Ransom had a combative but genuinely close relationship with his late grandfather which is more than can be said for the other members of the family they include Michael Shannon as Walt who ran his father Harlan's publishing firm and Toni Collette as Harlan's widow daughter in law Joanie a social media influencer with a group inspired lifestyle brand but the most memorable character by far and the one who emerges as the trooper tagging missed is Marta a cub or a Harlan's personal nurse superbly played by the Cuban actress to our mess Martha appears to have been Harlan's only true friend she's far more heartbroken over his death than any of his relatives who keep telling her they see her as part of the family even though none of them can remember exactly which Latin American country she immigrated from blank immediately sees her as a potential ally and in lists her help in solving the mystery sensing that she knows more about Harlan and his family secrets then she may be letting on. The steady stream of laughs and wink wink a genre references and knives out might make it seem at 1st like an arch post-modern send up but the movie is too well constructed too full of clever red herrings and breathtaking surprises to be reduced to a mere spoof this isn't the 1st time Ryan Johnson has shown off his flair for intricate plotting as he did in his time travel thriller looper and in Star Wars the last jet I that Blockbuster was attacked by some fans for among other things it's racially diverse casting you can't help but wonder if those bigoted reactions stung Johnson into centering his new movie around a working class Spanish speaking immigrant whose competence and decency utterly Shain the wealthy white family that employs her the pleasures of knives out are both comfortingly familiar and surprisingly subversive even after the murderer's identity has been revealed it builds to what may be the single most satisfying closing shot I've seen this year I won't say more but it's a killer. Is a film critic for the l.a. Times. Tomorrow on Fresh Air Our guest will be Edward Norton who wrote directed and stars in the new film noir mother of this Brooklyn based on the Jonathan. Norton plays a private detective with Tourette's Syndrome a big powerful real estate developers in your Norton was inspired to make the film in part because his grandfather was an idealistic real estate developer who built a diverse community where Norton grew up I hope you'll join us Fresh Air's interviews and reviews you produced an edited salad from this Meyers. Teresa Madden says Kelly and Joe I'm Terry Gross. Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from the pajama gram company creators. Matching holiday pajamas for the whole family including dogs and cats with Charlie Brown Star Wars and Grinch themes in its fleece and flannel available at pajama gram dot com. And from Dana Farber Cancer Institute developing ways to use the p.d.-l one pathway in immunotherapy to treat cancer committed to making contributions in cancer treatment for 72 years Dana Farber dot org slash everywhere for the University of Arkansas Little Rock department of Applied communication in k u a r m Dr Carole Thompson with Communication matters people often say I don't do apologies and yet sometimes we hurt other people sometimes inadvertently the loss of her Martin Buber says we are human because of our relationships so apologies are important Hocker and Wilma suggest about apologies Be sure to acknowledge wrongdoing by saying I see now that I've hurt you except to rather than deflect responsibility affirming this is my fault offer sincere expression of regret or remorse saying I'm deeply sorry that my thoughtless action hurt you assure that this will not happen again and make up if possible asking is there anything I can do to make it better the poor apology can cause harm it helps to be honest insincere to recognize how the other person feels for Communication matters I'm Dr Carol Thompson thanks for listening to 89 point one k. U.a.r. Little Rock news and culture for Arkansas a listener supported service of the University of Arkansas at Little Rock you can become a sustaining member at k u a r dot org Support for the Ted Radio Hour comes from Law Offices of Gary Gray a people's practice reminding all that texting and driving is deadly dangerous helping injured people with litigation including dangerous drugs and medical devices green dot com. This. Is the Ted Radio Hour. Each week groundbreaking Ted talks. Ted Technology Entertainment Design design because that really would stem from she had never known of the delivered Ted conferences around the world gift of the human imagination we've had to believe in impossible things it's true nature of reality beckons. Just beyond those talks those ideas of gadgets for radio. From n.p.r. . I'm Guy Raz coming up there is some kind of debate where the love should actually be classified as an addiction you can't stop thinking about the person we're playing in this one of the most powerful brain systems that every volved you know I think for him to last and be a healthy and productive or.