U.k. Germany and others next month will be releasing a major report focusing on Israeli Army conduct and the occupied West Bank and will continue doing our work and we want to stop doing it whether I'm here or not the Israeli government says Human Rights Watch could send a new employee to Israel Shekar says he'll continue in his role from Jordan Daniel Estrin n.p.r. News Jerusalem the head of Iran's Revolutionary Guard is blaming widespread economic unrest there on sanctions imposed by the u.s. And its allies and is threatening to retaliate General Hussein salami accuses the u.s. The u.k. Israel and Saudi Arabia of stoking the protests speaking for thousands at a pro-government demonstration salami war critics both foreign and domestic that quote if you cross our red line we will destroy you and quote Meanwhile Amnesty International is now raising the death toll from protests related clashes in the last couple of weeks to at least 143. You're listening to n.p.r. News. According Argentina finds 2 priests guilty of sexually molesting hearing impaired children at a Catholic run school the priest have been sentenced to more than 40 years in prison in connection with the abuse of 10 former students a 3rd person a Gardner has been sentenced to 18 years the country is also closely watching a 2nd case involving a priest who is accused of abusing 2 seminarians the defendant a former protege of Pope Francis is due to arrive in Argentina tomorrow to fight the charges. London has stripped of its license saying the ride service is not fit and proper to operate in the British capital one of the company's largest markets N.P.R.'s Frank Langfitt has that story from London the city officials say they discovered more than 14000 new rides by an authorized drivers in late 2018 and early 2019 which the local government said put passenger safety at risk London Mayor City Khan said fraudulent drivers were uploading their photos to other drivers accounts Transport for London a government agency said quote It is unacceptable that Uber has allowed passengers to get into many cabs with drivers who are potentially unlicensed and uninsured who recalled the license denial extraordinary and wrong and insisted it had fundamentally changed its business and improved security in the past 2 years who has 21 days to lodge an appeal and can continue to operate during any appeals process who remains a popular option in London particularly as the city's famous black cabs George considerably more Frank Langfitt n.p.r. News London u.s. Stocks are trading higher with the Dow up 139 points since the open This is n.p.r. Support for n.p.r. Comes from n.p.r. Stations other contributors include the pajama gram company creators of mashing holiday pajamas for the whole family including dogs and cats with Charlie Brown Star Wars and Grange games in its fleece and flannel available at pajama gram dot com. In the latest sign of recent tensions between the trumpet ministration and the military Navy secretary Richard Spencer resigned from his post on Sunday after Defense Secretary Marc esper demanded that he step down Spencer's resignation stemmed in large part from the case of the Navy Seal Edward Gallagher earlier this year a military court convicted Gallagher for posing for a photograph with the corpse of a 17 year old ISIS captive Gallagher was acquitted on charges of shooting civilians and murdering a captive Islamic state fighter after Gallagher's conviction the Navy demoted him earlier this month president reversed that decision setting off what many say is an unprecedented display of exercising presidential authority over legal military decision President Trump and Navy secretary Spencer openly disagreed over whether the Navy would reverse course and investigate Gallagher further on Sunday afternoon defense secretary Mark s. Were declared that he had lost trust in Spencer's leadership and was asking for the secretary's resignation Esper was saying that Spencer had attempted to make a side deal with the White House to restore Gallagher's rank by Sunday evening in a letter to President Trump Secretary Spencer said quote I no longer share the same understanding with the commander in chief who appointed me in regards to the key principle of good order and discipline. I'm Tenzin of Bega and that's where we start today on the take away. Joining me now is Leo Shane the 3rd the deputy editor at Military Times Leo welcome to the program thanks for the invitation also with us is Gary Solis a military lawyer and retired professor from West Point and a veteran of the u.s. Marine Corps who spent 17 months as a combat arms officer in Vietnam Gary welcome to the take away thank you. Gary we'll start with you the latest news is obviously the resignation of Navy secretary Richard v. Spencer How significant is this in your opinion while it's very significant I can think of the last time that 2nd navvies been fired but Spencer is a retired Marine and regardless of the merits of his his case he should know that if you don't go to the general without clearing it with your colonel and now he's having that dictum reinforced then we'll get a little bit into the conflicting reports we heard about how this happened but I'm wondering if you had any thoughts on the resignation letter itself and I'll just read you one line that really stood out to us was and I'm quoting a Spencer here he says I no longer share the same understanding but the commander in chief who appointed me in regards to the key principle of good order and discipline yes I think that that's a very good point and I think it goes to the heart of what the Gallagher case has become I think that we are now beyond Gallacher And we're into military civil relationships and it's very unusual for the president to take such an active interest in such a really insignificant case at least it's become an insignificant case in terms of the legal issues involved it's been decided but it's taken on an entirely new coloration that is very significant for the country and for the military in my opinion that well and you know Gary we've talked a lot about the relationship between President Trump and the military and how the president could be seen as undermining the military do you think that these latest developments paint that picture more clearly and I think there's no doubt in the world that he has undermined military discipline the military justice system he's undermined command authority in the military and he has done a disservice to the military by his disregard to the command system Leo Initially there were. Conflicting reports one was a report that Spencer was prepared to step down if President Trump interfered with the disciplinary process against Edward Gallagher and now we're hearing that defense secretary Mark esper demanded that Spencer resign after finding out that Spencer basically went behind his back to try and strike a deal with the White House what do you make of those conflicting reports and just a lot of confusion right now as to exactly what went down and much to blame here is Gary referenced this was this is a individual case that has gotten a lot of attention in conservative circles but has now turned into a full blown scandal from a trump a ministration and and a pretty big headache here so bottom line is that a Navy secretary who was 'd take of President Trump and I'm ally of President Trump is out of a job over the handling of this one military criminal case however you want to slice it that's at the heart of this without Trump deciding to intervene and it's hard to see how Spencer ends up out of a job you all cover the military that's what you do every day when you look at the relationship between the trumpet ministration and the military what does this latest story tell us about that relationship Trampas always enjoyed pretty high favor ability rating troops although we've seen in our own polling that that number has slipped over the last few years it'll be really interesting to see what the long term reaction is you know we're hearing a pretty big spread right now folks who saw this case in the other 2 cases that involve pardons as as really cases where they want the president to intervene that maybe that military justice system wasn't wasn't fair to these guys but a lot of folks who see it as really concerning especially in this Gallagher case this is more than just issuing a pardon this is the president intervening and saying no you can't demote him for conduct unbecoming you can't remove his his seal Trident you can't keep him out of the seals you know really micromanaging to a level that we we haven't seen from the commander in chief before and taking this there's one case to 2. All right Gary is that micromanagement that LEOs describing part of the commander in chief i.e. The president's purview Well it's within his authority but just because he can doesn't mean he should and I think that this is a great example of that that axiom certainly he can do it but no president has ever done it before well actually Kennedy set aside one case of disrespect to the president in 1982 but other than that there has been in modern times no no case that I'm aware of where the president has dipped down into the daily workings of the military justice system to put his thumb on the scale now Leo mentioned the 2 other officers who the president pardoned a little over a week ago and there's been a lot of debate within the military community about that decision by President Trump what are you hearing about those other cases well I have a lot of friends that remain in the military and I'm often a speaker at various places military places and I have yet to run into an officer who has agreed with the course taken by the president Goldstein and Lawrence were in my opinion clearly guilty and in the opinion of a court and Lawrence Lawrence case guilty and there was simply no. No basis no legal basis for the president who become involved in the 1st place and certainly not to pardon them in my opinion Leo in general I mean we see the president this is the 3rd time the president has intervened in something like this why do you think the president pardoned these officers then just to follow that what do you think the role of the conservative media has been in the narrative about these pardons so far well yeah I mean those 2 things are inherently connected here what happened with these cases each of them became a cause liberty firmaments certain conservative groups and what we were. What appears to happened is the president is listening to some outside advisors who have convinced him that these were miscarriages of justice rather than folks in the military who who are connected to that the military justice system you know as Gary referenced Clint Lawrence's case he was convicted of 2nd degree murder by a military tribunal by military military court Sensa 20 years and was serving out that sentence and there's quite a few folks in conservative circles who decided that they didn't they didn't like that they shouldn't be punished for it for these cases these were 2 Afghan insurgents who may or may not have retaliated against them lots of questions there but you know military just system rendered a ruling and the president said now it 5 sided that I have more facts than than that extensive court case and Leo in cases like this it's been fellow military members who a flag the criminal behavior of their officers their fellow officers and have testified against them during court proceedings what does it mean for them sort of pivoting back to what Gary was saying in terms of this being unprecedented what does it mean for them that the president then basically bypasses that it issues these pardons again when you've got you've got 3 folks who've gotten clemency here but you've got a number of folks who testified to against them were prepared to testify against them who now are left wondering why the president went against them I'm sure there are some concerns about what it means for their careers Now if these guys are being held up as acceptable or as heroes in some circles that paints them as the villains and that's a big concern for a lot of these folks and a concern among other folks that it will have a chilling effect in the future that you know the troops will be less willing to come forward and report wrongdoing if they think the president is going to intervene and and wave it all Gary what is this said these pardons What are these pardons tell us about the standard rules of engagement when it comes to the military as Leo has suggested it. Undermines them more than simply the rules of engagement the law of armed conflict which is what I teach taught at West Point before retirement it has undermined military discipline it has undermined the law of armed conflict and I think more significantly it has put u.s. Troops on the level of our enemy I mean our allies are going to say well what you know. We can't get it we can't get a conviction on we have one we have witnesses and when we get a conviction it's set aside how can we depend on our allies like the Americans to do that which they should in the battle where we're supposed to be the good guys and we have by these cases by the dismissing by the parting of these cases we are brought down to the level of our enemy and that's something that's that's going to be a long time to overcome and do you think this is this compromise is the u.s. Is the u.s. Military's moral high ground is that absolutely or does he have to salute that's exactly what it is done we have lost the moral high ground how can we go to our allies and say Now remember you can't kill unarmed civilians and I think she just looked at us and laughed and said he of have you heard of the Goldstein or Gallagher Lawrence cases and that is that is a harm to the national reputation to the morale of the armed forces that is it's a shame Leo Are there concerns that this decision or these cases they should say threaten our national security whether that's by losing senior staff to resignations as we've seen with Spencer or whether that's by pardoning the military members of the military who've been convicted of war crimes do either of those less than or weaken our national security here I mean if you'd asked me a few days ago if I thought that we're going to presiding over this probably would have said no but now we've got right now we've got the Navy secretary over this will see just how far it is not far reaching the after effects or. You know in the last few days Senator Jack Reed who's the ranking member of the Armed Services Committee took to the Senate floor to talk about this and that was one of the points he raised he said look this is bad not just for the military but for all of America because it makes our troops let's say for overseas as Gary said how can our allies you know take us seriously where when they see cases like this and frankly how can we expect our enemies to follow that you need convention and another rules of war if they see u.s. Troops being fired for these sort of things Leo Shane the 3rd is the deputy editor at Military Times and Gary Solis is a military lawyer and retired professor from West Point thanks to you both for joining us thank you my pleasure and that's we want to hear your voice on this and also non vets you can give us a call at 8770 my take We'll be back in a minute on the take away. The take away is supported by Focus Features and participant with dark waters a thriller starring Mark Ruff alone and happy way mysterious deaths in a small town lead one man to risk his life for the truth now playing in select theaters everywhere December 6th and Newman his yellow green and red approach to categorizing food helps you make better mill choices with the goal of losing weight and keeping it off for good learn more at noon and. Then carry a thing about it in Wildwood. And I just I'm saying if you need to alarm much about it this is Jay Bradley minute with facts about fiction Southern writer Larry Brown whose books dirty work and facing the music were inspired by his working class background as a Marine fireman and father was ordinarily obese too but fluent English in his senior year in high school in 1969 here the facts Brown's f. In English stem primarily from a research paper he wrote on deer hunting which he spent most of his time doing instead of completing his homework reluctantly he attended summer school earned a b. In English and was awarded does the play in 1990 However Brown was redeemed when he received a letter from his former English teacher when the Lester who wrote I've been following your career as a literary genius is spite of the fact that you failed high school English I like to think that if I passed you you would not have work so hard to get where you are today to find out more facts about fiction dork. This is the takeaway with Tenzin of a guy from w. N.y.c. N.p.r. X. In collaboration with t.v. Age radio in Boston. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention 61000000 adults in the United States are living with a disability that's one in every 4 adults and there are many obvious ways the public policy has not adequately addressed people with disabilities as anyone who rides the New York City subway can tell you but there are also policies that are invisible to most of the general public and they can have a big impact on people with disabilities take our federal labor laws which allow certain employers to pay people with disabilities far less than the minimum wage for more on this I spoke with Robin Powell an attorney and a research associate at the Laurie Institute for disability policy at Brandeis University and I started by asking her why i companies are able to pay sub minimum wage for people with disabilities in the 1930 s. When the Fair Labor Standards Act was passed there was a provision called 14 c. Which allows for companies to apply for a certification from the u.s. Department of labor so that they can pay people with disability less than minimum wage sometimes as little as pennies an hour and it was really it was this result of a lot of disabled vets coming back from or needing job training that was the original thought but we're seeing that this is continuing on today and it's actually not serving as a really a job training at all and when we say people with disabilities can you help us understand what that means in this context and also how big the disparity is in pay people who receive minimum wage typically are people with an intellectual disability or a mental health or psychiatric disability However there are other disabilities for instance several blind people also are receiving 7 minimum wage and again that discrepancy is really pretty significant I know people who are making 6 cents. An hour or so where the minimum wage is significantly more than that we know that some people are getting paid pennies and when I was a social worker several years ago before I went to law school I worked with adults who had intellectual disabilities and my individuals would come home after a week of working 35 to 40 hours and have a paycheck for $40.00 for that week and so they were working at Goodwill where they were hanging clothes alongside non disabled individuals who were getting paid at least minimum wage and they were getting paid far less you mentioned goodwill and a lot of folks think of them as a charitable organization and that's what they purport to do Have you heard anything from Goodwill I mean why they would do allow this to happen so they really say that they are doing this to train people with disabilities to be able to work in competitive integrated employment that is sort of the whole belief system behinds of minimum wage however research shows that about 5 percent of people that work in the sheltered workshops or set minimum wage work centers never leave so people aren't really actually being trained to leave and so I would argue that this is actually not training but cheap labor and again if you could help us understand the original intent of this law what was the thinking behind allowing employers to pay disabled people less than the minimum wage it was really based on this charitable approach to disability you know we're helping people just abilities that look at us we're doing something good and it was really supposed to be this training mechanism that would enable people to eventually work getting competitive earnings but we've never really moved beyond that we've never actually had an area where people go into these trainings and then move on to work regular work we just don't seem to really be pushing that and so that is why people when they go into these work centers they never leave and 5 percent leave there are states where they don't have. Sheltered workshops and people are working in normal jobs getting normal wages in that spot and it's working out well for them so there's no reason not to eliminate 14 c. Altogether Let's talk a little bit about context here I mean in terms of job discrimination how prevalent is it for people with disabilities job discrimination is a really significant issue people have disabilities or unemployed it significant rates I mean I would argue that some of that is in part due to rapid discrimination against people with disabilities I mean I've encountered my own discrimination I can tell you that it is something that is alive and well and when we think about the fact that many people with disabilities also rely on services like Medicaid or Social Security Disability Insurance does that help or hurt these employees so that is the other issue so I would argue that the 2 major issues that are contributing to unemployment among people with disabilities is discrimination one and 2 these policies and programs that really disincentive eyes people are disabilities from working so as you mentioned Medicaid and Social Security disability insurance and supplemental security income which is s.s.i. Those policies all include very straight to income limits so you cannot make over a certain amount and still receive benefits and the problem is people need Medicaid so Medicaid is the only health insurance that will provide home and community based services so personal care attendance for instance someone that can come into someone's health and help them get out of bed in the morning and get ready for the day and do other things throughout the day but Medicaid is the only insurer that will pay for that help so you have to really commit to poverty in order to get out of bed in the morning so people have to choose should I work or should I be able to get out of bed in the morning so earlier in our conversation you mentioned that you have dealt with discrimination workplace. Discrimination would you be able to tell us a little bit about that absolutely So when I was graduating college as I mentioned earlier I have my undergraduate degree in social work you know throughout college I had 3 different enter and ships' I graduated with pretty high honors from college so on paper I was this dream applicant I applied to lots of social work jobs when I was gay I had to graduate and employers would call me and comment on the experience I have and say basically you know coming in for an interview is just a formality and that always changed the minute I rolled into the office in my wheelchair and all of a sudden these employers that did not know I was disabled also no were really concerned about hiring me some were very explicit they would say we just don't think you can do this because of your disability others or a little less explicit so they just would never return my phone calls or they would not respond to emails and in the end I o. Interviewed for over 30 social work jobs before I actually found in employer who was able to hire me and who's willing to hire me rather and that was several years ago and since then I have worked and disability law so I haven't encountered as much discrimination since then although I think it's because I am very aware of my rights now as I said to be rights attorney so I am far better of an advocate but he had the discrimination still definitely a thing problem Powell research associate at the Laurie Institute for disability policy of Brandeis University thanks again Robin thank you for having me we reached out to Goodwill Industries about this issue and they responded by saying that local Goodwill organizations have been transitioning away from the use of special minimum wage certificates and that only 30 of the $152.00 Goodwills in the u.s. Currently maintain the certificate down for more than 86 years ago you can read their full statement on our website at the takeaway dot org today's Here's to your head. The segment with Dr t. Glenn Pate is brought to you by the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences Thanksgiving was reclaimed a national holiday in 863 by President Abraham Lincoln presidents originally had to declare it a holiday every year President Thomas Jefferson reportedly refused to do so because he strongly believed in the separation of church and state since Thanksgiving involved prayer he thought make it a holiday would violate the 1st Amendment Americans will consume about $720000000.00 pounds of turkey this week according to the American Farm Bureau the cost of a classic Thanksgiving dinner which includes turkey and stuffing and sweet potatoes green beans cranberries pumpkin pie and of course coffee was about $49.00 in 2018 most Americans favor white meat which makes up about 70 percent of the turkey and has less fat fewer calories than the dark meat if you're having turkey but watching your calories you may want to skip the turkey skin quips adds another 35 calories to a 3 and a half ounce serving for here's your health I'm Dr t. Pay support for here's to your health is provided by the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences for a better state of health 3 teaching the state's health care professionals healing the sick and injured searching for new medical treatments and providing programs that reach into every corner of our state says that new A.M.'s health dot com. Everybody I'm Kinzinger Vega and this is the takeaway and it's been a chaotic week for Israeli politics as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was indicted on corruption charges just days after his chief rival failed to form a majority coalition in parliament and now the country's 3rd election in just 12 months is likely these developments come days after Secretary of State Mike pump Ayos announcement that Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank would no longer be considered illegal reversing 40 years of u.s. Policy and that announcement shows that even as Netanyahu faces political uncertainty in Israel he still has a close ally in President Trump joining us now is no Tarnopol ski a journalist based in Jerusalem who writes for the l.a. Times and The Daily Beast you know welcome to the show thank you very much among many things happening in Israel Netanyahu has been charged with bribery fraud and breach of trust by Israel's attorney general can you remind us briefly what the charges stem from yes they are story cases one of them is pretty much a simple quid pro quo in language that we've become used to he's accused of accepting very costly gifts from rich friends in return for doing political savers for them one of those rich friends is the Israeli American Hollywood producer Arnon Milchan who needed help with a visa and Netanyahu apparently intervened with John Kerry so there are some American figures involved in that the other 2 cases are I think the more serious probably and they involve his attempts the extortion and regulatory changes and abuse of his public position according to allegations in an attempt to get what he would consider more positive media coverage for himself. Israel has also had 2 elections and neither of those have been able to establish a coalition government there could be a 3rd election where does that leave Benny Gantz in his blue and white party Well where does that leave the whole country or there could be next elections basically within 3 months Israel has been without a proper functioning government since Christmas eve of last year when you know dispersed the Knesset and announced that there would be elections in April since then he became you know became a caretaker government I I don't know what to tell you on the one hand it's feels kind of like a disaster and you do I'm starting to hear just people regular people on the street complaining about how much money is being wasted on this unending electoral campaigns and also the dysfunction of the government which many simple citizens feel it when they need it for example just municipal services things that you know funding isn't coming through because there's no functional government on the other hand what we're basically seeing is a country kind of being held hostage to a very powerful prime minister who's been in office for 10 years and who's unwilling to let go at least 2 very serious polls have shown that majority of Israelis believe that Netanyahu once indicted should resign and he's refusing and by kind of consistently trying to disperse the Knesset what it means is that there's no other elected prime minister so he can remain in this limbo state of caretaker prime minister and what he hopes is that that status will provide him at least with a kind of limited limited immunity to these charges or at least allow him to face a more friendly courtroom but what you're seeing on the one hand is I think a wonderful example of democracy where the tourney general was able to stand unafraid and indeed. Very grave charges the head of government and there's not a revolt but when it's on you know saying and on the other hand you're seeing a real abuse of that democracy and so that's the part that seems to me very dangerous All right no the stick with us we'll be right back to talk about the United States' changing views on Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank this is the takeaway. The take away is supported by Focus Features and participant with dark waters a thriller starring Mark Ruffalo and add happy where mysterious deaths in a small town leave one man to risk his life for the truth is now playing in select theaters everywhere December 6th. And we're back with journalist Nova Tarnopol ski and we're going to focus now on Secretary of State Mike pump Ayos recent announcement that Israeli settlements in the West Bank do not violate international law. How much of a departure is it from past u.s. Administrations it is a huge departure because every other American administration has basically agreed that the u.s. Interpretation accepts the international laws definition of what an occupied territory is and in this case we're talking about the West Bank which Israel won in the War of 1967 as also knows a 6 day war from Jordan and the Palestinians claim this church there for a future state and the entire Western world and officially Also the government of Israel you know and the laws of Israel see this as occupied territory and disputed territory but so we're saying I have to say about some pails announcement is that I don't know to what extent we should be taking it seriously or not some pale made an announcement but the official u.s. Position on the State Department website has not changed State Department spokespeople when asked on what legal basis the American legal opinion is changing had no answer the White House has not confirmed a single word that pump Ailes said so it's really unclear to me 1st of all what effect a change in u.s. Position could have on the general international interpretation of the law but this really is a limbo because it's unclear from Peo just. Focus he was in the mood or if this represents an actual policy shift and as a result of that I mean I'm wondering if that confusion extends to other countries who are looking to u.s. Policy to sort of determine how they approach West Bank settlements. That may be the case you know I think the situation is even more acute because when the United States recognizers on Israel's capital and moved its embassy the stated hope was that many countries would follow and Trump said it many times Netanyahu said it many times fact of the matter is only Guatemala moved its embassy to Jerusalem following no states so it hasn't had an effect and because American policy in this region has become so unpredictable and so in stable My sense is that other countries are just kind of holding back right now now how does that instability bode for future peace talks I mean that that's also something that we know that Jared questionnaire has promised to to resolve the issues there in that region but given all of this instability and confusion what does that tell us about the possibility for future peace talks I don't think there's a current possibility for peace talks to be honest with you among other reasons is that the United States has spoken for 3 years now about a peace plan and no one has ever seen it the question of peace plan as far as anybody here knows make sister may not exist yesterday this Israeli newspaper Haaretz published an article there was an interview with the just grazed head of we work claim to have assisted Jared questioner in creating this peace plan that no one has ever seen and in the same interview he said that he could or and the Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Selma or the guys were going to change the world. So I thought I would tell you that that's a pretty good indication or I don't think there is a peace plan right now just really government is in complete disarray I don't I mean there's no government right now that could in good faith negotiate on behalf of Israel I think I can venture to guess that the u.s. Government also has higher priorities right now the Europeans are completely and involved but I don't want to take too dark a picture I think that what this means is that as long as we have the current leaders in place there is no prospects for any sort of peace negotiations but the chaos right now is so strange that I'm not sure it'll have any effect on the future I think if in 2 years there are different leaders all around there are there is an absolute possibility of peace talks I just don't see it right now you know the kind of Polsky as a journalist based in Jerusalem who writes for The Los Angeles Times and The Daily Beast know that thanks so much for your reporting thank you. I'm Tenzin of a gun this is the take away it's been a tough decade for the American press. Because publishers have struggled to adapt to a fractured media landscape near daily charges of fake news have undermined faith in the institution of journalism and are many people in the United States social media platforms have replaced traditional outlets as their primary source of news the crisis has made headlines as high profile digital outlets like Buzz Feed and vice laid off significant portions of their newsrooms in 2019 and news sites like Think Progress splinter and more have gone away entirely it's not just digital journalism that's struggling to stay afloat in the past 15 years more than 2000 newspapers have been forced out of business as Internet giants like Google and Facebook suck up the advertising revenue that historically kept most newspapers and business buyouts and mergers have left many local outlets in danger of extinction the McClatchy Company the publishing giant behind papers like The Miami Herald and dozens of others is reported to be on the brink of bankruptcy if newspapers that do survive often wind up consolidated under signal ownership. Joining me now to discuss the state of local media are Ken Dr media analyst and founder of news a nomics and Penny muse Abernathy Knight Chair in Journalism and digital media economics at the University of North Carolina welcome to you both thank you did appear penny many parts of the country have been described as news deserts tell us what that means well I think a news desert is an area that lacks access to good quality and credible local news we have seen the disappearance not only of more than a 4th of our newspapers over the last 15 years we've seen a decrease of more than a half of the journalists we had in newsrooms is specially newspaper news rooms at the same time so. We we see a general lack of access to good credible local news now where are we seeing these news deserts the most are there certain communities certain areas in the country that are more affected than others and there most certainly are they tend to be communities that are struggling economically that have much older residents exactly the sort of communities whether you're talking about inner city neighborhoods whether you're talking about suburbs or even rural areas that really need the information that news outlets local news outlets especially newspapers have traditionally provided that help them make good decisions about quality of life decisions so let's talk a little bit about the quality of life decisions because when you lose that I think a lot of folks aren't maybe may not be aware of what type of reporting these local outlets are doing we're talking about people going to community board meetings right we're talking about a whole range of things we're talking about just the routing coverage of government meetings everything from the zoning board to the school board meeting that affect the quality of life decisions that you need to make on a day to day basis but the f.c.c. Put together a list of 8 critical information needs that anybody needs in order to make good decisions they included everything on from information on the environment on Hail home education as well as governance and politics can what is filling the void in these news desert communities we mentioned at the top that people are getting their news from Facebook and Twitter is that enough well in their journey of those of the distribution as we know Facebook and Twitter don't create news so all they do is research whatever's out there and but people do mistake it for a source that's not a source if you look at it broadly spending is that we've lost probably $30000.00 journalists over the last 20 years and I'd say we have replaced them with maybe temp of that and these are small groupings of journalists have gotten together often times those are. Alan or laid off in small groups so in a sense very little has replaced that in a sense local news to a lot of people means t.v. News and that's the half hour news that is you know traffic accidents and weather and an occasional in the story once a week but that becomes the news and I think people lose that muscle memory of deep local news let's talk a little bit about the business here I mean I mean obviously we had 30000 journalists this is a lot of journalists to lose and not replace some of that is also because of economic pressure we mentioned canat the parent company of more than 100 daily newspapers the New Media Investment Group which is the owner of the newspaper chain Gatehouse media just finalize plans for a merger will that affect the media landscape it will and it has this company now and it will still be called the Net all the old company going to goes away will manage and control 50 of American newspapers one 5th which is unprecedented these used to be locally owned they got chained up in the seventy's and eighty's but they were still very diverse in their ownership Well what we are seen what drives this deal is quote unquote synergies and that means lots of cutting we've saw the 1st cutting and fact Friday and the whole idea here is can these companies come together to save money not to immediately reinvest in journalism but to save money and then maybe figure out a plan for the future so it's not a hopeful sign it's just another sign of cutting and that's what we've seen through this whole decade which is really disinvestment and these aren't just smaller outlets I mean McClatchy at the top we mentioned they own newspapers like The Miami Herald the companies behind some of the country's other top regional papers like The Chicago Tribune and The New York Daily News are struggling. What's happening there can well what happens there is what I call ghost newspapers So Penny is really with identified these news as yours and they are they are petrified but ghost newspapers where we have newspapers that still publish but have less and less news and they still have the ads and they have the hearing aids as and the obituaries for the older reading Bob elation but less and less local news goes newspapers we're going to get into this a little bit in the next segment can but like why are these companies not making money is there one reason is that that people just aren't buying newspapers anymore number one reason is the outflow of advertising money that has gone to Google and Facebook over the last decade they control 60 percent of all the digital advertising in the country and that's now the main type of advertising Ok We're going to have to take a quick break we're going to keep talking about the state of local news in just a minute this is the take away. From Seattle high private Times Sunday edition you get the print edition because I feel like that's kind of part of my civic duty to keep independent journalism alive and trying to help them through this transition period I feel and I'm monitoring Internet news. This is the takeaway call us at 8778 might say to comment on any story but give us your thoughts on any topic but also we're on Facebook and Twitter take away let us know what you think thanks for listening. On the next morning edition. A number of key officials who helped run the 2016 elections will be around for 2020 quite frankly elections or Facebook or Gawker and what will it take to recruit new ones also an actress takes center stage in a star studded new murder mystery Were you intimidated at all Oh yes. I was terrified to listen for all kinds of stories on the next Morning Edition from n.p.r. News tomorrow morning 5 k. You a are. 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We've been talking about the collapse of the local news industry and before we would turn to that conversation we've been hearing from you about where the use of scribe to your local newspaper on Mary comes thanking her for a day and I didn't subscribe to the camp of a time I subscribed I have a year to get back to port fulfillment papers and I support professional journalism and the I think that they have and they specialize in that they employ when they report good news it is an important capture of our freedom and democracy I'm Rachel Croston calling from Greenville South Carolina if you not cry to my local newspaper I have considered it digital description but honestly there are a lot of the New to get news for free that I want but I don't keep up with local news and maybe I should for turning back now to Ken Dr of news and omics and Penny muse Abernathy Knight Chair in Journalism and digital media economics at the u.n. See plenty we just heard from a couple folks who made some interesting points one was about the civic duty people feel that it's their civic duty to subscribe to news but another Rachel the last caller said no I don't want to subscribe I want to you know just watch you get the news I get for free Tell us a little bit about how that tension is affecting the local news landscape different to recent surveys that really shed light on what people think about the economic peril of local news and what they think also about the importance to democracy the 1st one done by the Pew Research Center found that 50 percent of people noticed they had less local news in their whatever local news outlet they looked at whether it was television or newspapers but especially newspapers but 75 percent were unaware that there was any economic problems called. Thing that cut back in the news coverage similarly only 15 percent had subscribed to a newspaper in the past year or so more recently Gallup just came out with a survey that found that when people were informed about the important role that newspapers especially served in providing the kind of news it feeds our democracy they were much more likely to donate or subscribe to a newspaper and also if they were then given the background book news which was important and why it needed to be supported financially they were also even more willing to subscribe and so far penny we've been talking a lot about newspapers but what about t.v. News and I'm also wondering if you could tell us how public radio is doing I think n.p.r. Affiliates are doing quite well locally if I'm not mistaken Well I think that we're going to have to look at a variety of business models going forward what we've had is a collapse of the for profit model especially in communities that are small or economically struggling and in fact the typical as I mentioned before under represented communities if you have a good strong owner who's committed to investing in the transformation because it is really happening very quickly and you can get good news but I think we're going to have to look at a variety of models where it's nonprofit or whether it's relying more on public funding especially to cover the under represented communities television regional television has a starkly done a very good job of covering the metro market on certain areas but they rarely strike out into the communities at far the farther out in the state roughly 90 percent of what they have in any given program is devoted to what's happening in the metro area whether that's weather whether that's traffic or whether that and sports are just good hard local news can to that point to Penny's point and we have seen some news organization move toward nonprofit status most recently the Salt Lake. We're seeing other news outlets springing up that have sort of a new business models behind them where they're corporate death a land therapy Are there benefits in going in that direction I mean can't aren't you at the mercy of your benefactor at that point where you are I mean no matter who pays that does determine the news we get and actually the single positive movement of the last decade is that reader revenue that means subscribers now represent majority or revenue for places like The Washington Post New York Times Wall Street Journal and The Guardian so that that is the positive and that is working on that national level I think that's really important the idea that nonprofit journalism unquote will save us I think is a false one there isn't enough philanthropy money to support local media local news gathering in thousands of communities it works really well at the national level and we see it clearly at. N.p.r. Stations but also Marshall Project Kaiser health shock b. All of these specialty sites in criminal justice and education and health they work well but I don't think it's the savior locally I think when you look at it you say Ok it's good for you you know it's good for civic life as one of the callers said and that's one of the reasons we subscribe the other is product these were products that did a lot of things for us in our lives when the daily newspapers were in their heyday they need to do the same thing in the digital form so it isn't just do good feel good about it but can there be products like the modern New York Times and Washington Post that we actually feel are a good deal and worth paying for but we can you and I talked about this a think years ago when I was at the New York Times reporting on media and the idea that private equity is now something that's and taking over a lot of media outlets I mean. Not everybody can be the New York Times it's a hard place to compete with so when we see private equity creeping into journalism places like alt and global capital for example what are the benefits are or are not benefits to that well there have been very few benefits all the global capital which has bought 25 percent share of the Tribune Company and that was the last major and seen as negative news of the last week has just cut and cut and cut and if you look at this one of my sources to me last week people think the newspaper business is different but is just like the waste management business it's a business on its way down and we're just milking it and that's what the the the financial players like old and new They're very cynical they have a turn out the lights kind of strategy to take out 400000000 dollars in the last 4 or 5 years and then whatever's left sell it to somebody maybe a civic group that wants or is a little money or turn out the lights and we should give some of these local outlets their due here Penny we know the Miami Herald reporting really was the reporting that put the spotlight on Jeffrey Epstein Newsday here in New York on Long Island recently had a big report on a Demick racial discrimination in their real estate market what do we lose penny when these go away well we we lose a lot let me put it in perspective publisher of a very small weekly in North Carolina who want to Pulitzer Prize for Public Service Award for taking on the k.k.k. Back in the 1950 s. Is very aggressive in his coverage of local government of officials and the like but he told me the difference between running at a double digit margin versus trending toward breakeven is that he has to think twice about what he's going to take own what he's going to champion where he's going to vote his resources and whether he can survive a legal challenge I think that is the. Untold story about what the damage can alternately be to our democracy there's a lack of transparency a lack of taking on the corruption that will inevitably flourish if you cannot shine a light on it many news Abernathy is night Chair in Journalism and digital media at the University of North Carolina and Ken Dr is a media analyst and founder of news and nomics thanks to you both thank you. And that's our show for today thanks so much for listening I'm Vega this is the takeaway I will see you tomorrow. You think you're busy this holiday season try doing a shift. Where it's intense it's very very intense think of sound as work shop as shoppers we love getting our packages in a day but for the workers you feel that your lives or rest yes commensurately behind Amazon. And the next Sunday afternoon at 2 and Thursday nights at 8 are. I'm Steven Cook Judy see Cobb is one of the hot springs in Garland County in 896 he was a talented multinational mentalist who played banjo saxophone clarinet and piano was a featured performer in the noted bands of King Oliver and Jimmy noon and as overlooked early jazz great in his own right as Johnny c. Cobb of hot springs on this week's arc and songs Friday at 6 50 am and 6 20 pm on k USA are. You listening to 89 point one k. U.a.r. Little rock music culture for Arkansas. Funding for here and now comes from Mathworks creators of Mad Love and Simulink software Excel rating the pace of engineering and science. Math works dot com from n.p.r. And you are Boston I'm Robyn young I'm Tanya mostly it's you. Coming up Navy secretary Richard Spencer is fired after just agreeing with the trumpet ministration about a war crimes case against a seal a former Navy Seal weighs in also pro-democracy candidates win in Hong Kong people do that see the district elections as a 1st step it's important to keep in mind that the district elections are relatively minor elections because councillors themselves don't make any policy themselves and why does President trouble hate Ukraine he wanted to withhold aid before Joe Biden got into the race we'll hear some of the conspiracies behind the president's loading and how Russia got him to believe the most important one the president really does believe that the Ukrainians were out to get him and 2016 and so that I think that's the root of his grievances coming up here now with the news his 1st. Live from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying with the United States and North Korea appearing no closer to reaching a consensus that eliminates Pyongyang's nuclear threat tensions are escalating on the Korean Peninsula today the South Korean government is accusing its northern rival of violating a military agreement by conducting artillery drills near the border separating the neighbors monitoring developments from Japan N.P.R.'s Anthony Kuhn reports in North Korean leader Kim Jong un observe the exercises over the weekend the North Korean state media reports that Kim Jong un personally designated targets for a chiller Rita hit during drills on Changmin island near the 2 Koreas maritime border the reports came with pictures of came in a beige trench coat standing over a map at a command post South Korea's ministry of defense says the drills violated a 2018 agreement to reduce tensions along the border the South has previously accused the North of violating the spirit of the agreement but this time they're talking about the agreement itself Pyongyang has accused Seoul numerous times of breaching the agreement with joint military exercises with the u.s. Anthony Kuhn n.p.r. News Tokyo President Trump has ordered the secretary of defense to allow a Navy Seal convicted of misconduct on the battlefield to keep his tried and pin symbolizing his inclusion in the elite commando force secretary Mark esper confirmed to reporters Trump's decision to stand by Chief Petty Officer Eddie Gallagher who is facing a Navy review board after being found guilty of posing with the corpse of an accused ISIS fighter until Trump intervene N.P.R.'s Ron Elving reports on the implications the conflict here is between the Commander in Chief and it appears brutally every other layer of military authority and military discipline including the admiral in charge of the seals and the man in charge of the Navy N.P.R.'s Ron Elving referring to Navy secretary Richard Spencer who was fired over the weekend after he raised concerns about Trump's intervention in a military justice matter as far as Spencer for his resignation after the Navy secretary went around his boss to try to work out a compromise with the White House over the gala.