About 90 percent of which were intercepted by the Israeli missile defense system 40 people in Israel were injured for n.p.r. News I'm Naomi's Eveleigh Intel of Eve Britain's Prince Andrew has given his 1st interview about his connections with a convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein who was found dead in his jail cell in August Vicki Barker reports from London the Queen Elizabeth son is defending himself from accusations of sexual misconduct in an interview with the b.b.c. Prince Andrew said he doesn't remember ever meeting Virginia Jew Frey the then 17 year old he was photographed with his arm around and who claims had sex with the prince on Jeffrey Epstein's orders recollection of. Anders says his biggest regret was staying with Epstein after the financier's sex offense conviction we try to uphold the highest standards and prices decide that the interview took place in Buckingham Palace with the permission of Andrew's mother Queen Elizabeth for n.p.r. News I'm Vicki Barker in London and you're listening to n.p.r. News from Washington. International Organization for Migration reports this year is shaping up to be the deadliest for migrants in the Americas since it began keeping records 6 years ago Lisa line reports nearly as many migrants have died in the Americas as on the Mediterranean Sea The data show 695 migrants have died crossing the Mediterranean Sea So far this year i.o.m. Spokesman Joel Millman says this is not much more than the 634 fatalities recorded in the Americas we've never seen anything like that before where the principal migration routes that linked Latin America to North America are now this year virtually as deadly as the central Mediterranean route has been for the last 6 years Millman attributes part of this rise to the exodus of millions of refugees the migrants from Venezuela over the past 2 years he says the desperation of many of these people creates the conditions that will result in more deaths for n.p.r. News I'm Lisa Ling in Geneva quarterback Collin capper Nick left n.f.l. Team scrambling today when he changed the time and location of his workout and opened it up to the media without getting the league's Ok Gavin to change the location from the Atlanta Falcons training center to a school some 60 miles away he then worked out for 40 minutes in front of Representatives from 8 and f l teams telling them he's ready to play for any team immediately the n.f.l. Says it was disappointed with his decision but says he remains an unrestricted free agent eligible to sign with any club I'm joining her post n.p.r. News in Washington support for n.p.r. Comes from n.p.r. Stations other contributors include the Andrew w. Mellon foundation guided by the belief that the arts and humanities are essential to the well being of diverse and democratic societies learn more at Melun dot org and the n.e.a. Casey Foundation. From w n y c in New York this is on the media and I'm Bob Garfield and I'm Brooke Gladstone Well it's happening and though a few of the early reviews were disappointing since it lacked the partisan stunts and high jinks of other televised proceedings it still drew a crowd we are people who repeatedly uproot our lives who risk and sometimes give our lives for this country that was former Ukraine ambassador Maria von a bitch describing the role of American diplomats in her opening statement on Friday day 2 of the impeachment hearings we are the dozens of Americans stationed at our embassy in Cuba and consulates in China who mysteriously and dangerously were injured and attacked from sources and we are Ambassador Chris Stevens Sean Patrick Smith Thai Woods and Glen Doherty people rightly called heroes for their ultimate sacrifice to this nation's foreign policy interests in Libya they represent each one of you here and every american these courageous individuals who are attacked because they symbolized America I think that if you are not molded by the testimony of Maria bought a bitch today you don't have a policy that assessment offered by Chris Wallace of Fox News the president also weighed in on Twitter during her testimony Intelligence Committee chairman Adam Schiff read her the tweet everywhere memory of all of it when turned bad she started off in Somalia how did that go chip asked her to respond did things turn bad everywhere she went green and I don't think I have such power is not in the dishes Smiley Somalia not in other places I actually think that where I served over the years I and others have monstrously made things better you know for the u.s. . As well as for the countries that have certain when asked he sent the tweets found that really intimidating now that enabled shift to then characterize that tweet as intimidating a witness or tampering with the witness which visit crime boxing uses Bradbury adding essentially an article of impeachment real time as this hearing is going on that was Friday up until our deadline but before that there was Wednesday I'm not here to to decide about impeachment that is not what either of us are here to do this is this is your job that was William b. Taylor who along with fellow diplomat George can't testified on Wednesday at the opening of the impeachment hearings in the house but actually Taylor's audience on the committee mostly already knew where they stood on the central question at hand it seems you agreed with Dean or unwittingly to participate in a drama Take for instance the hostility from ranking Republican member Devon newness but the main performance Russia hoax has ended and you've been cast in the low rent Ukrainian sequel so no proceedings are not really for the committee members there for the audience beyond the hill for the 13100000 viewers who at any given moment on Wednesday were tuned in and who knows how many on Friday to any of the news channels carrying the testimony surely some minds among those millions might be open to persuasion throughout the fall many in the cohort of the American majority who disapprove of Trump have placed hope in the impeachment process for the salvation that the mother reports failed to deliver specifically hope that the public especially the Republican public confronted with irrefutable evidence of presidential malfeasance would turn against Trump in such numbers that their elected representatives would have to act. I would have to there was a fair bit of concern about the Washington Post poll yesterday just the magnitude of shifting numbers that is concerning some Republicans close to the White House and leadership the trend lines really important independents are really important and the fact that this process isn't over we don't know what these open hearings are going to do to public opinion House Democrats clearly hope these public hearings will make it harder for Republican senators to stand by Trump on this point some pundits and journalists invoke the Nixon era when a fractured country tuned into televised hearings and came to agree about the seriousness of the Watergate scandal back in 173 public opinion had not yet turned against President Richard Nixon What did the president know. And when did he know televising the Senate Watergate hearings tipped the balance in part by exposing the existence of secret Oval Office tapes more than a year passed between those hearings and Nixon's premature departure from office but by the end a clear majority of Americans supported exactly that and so the hope goes if a divided country could albeit slowly reach a consensus then why not now because says Nicole hammer author of messenger of the right conservative media and the transformation of American politics that hope springs from a false premise she penned an op ed to that effect in last weekend's New York Times I hate to be the downer and moment but you know I understand why people think that the Watergate analogy is so strong when we think about impeachment that if we just follow the exact same steps that Democrats followed in 19831974 will have the exact same conclusion I mean back in the days of Watergate you had a public that watched for news that were. All of which were devoted to some form of objective reporting you had a Republican Party that certainly included conservatives but didn't have the kind of conservative base that we had today and you certainly didn't have anything like Fox News or conservative talk radio to protect an embattled President have you watched any of the coverage on Fox News I was actually watching on Wednesday on Fox News because I was curious you know Fox just like the other networks were carrying these hearings live and that seemed to be a tricky proposition for the network because there would be all of this evidence being amassed that showed potential corruption by the president and Lindsey Graham told Trump's supporters that it was tempting mounted disloyalty to watch the earrings it is a threat to the presidency I don't want to legitimize it it's un-American it does the basics of due process and yet I don't think the folks at Fox News knew that people are going to be tuning in and if the people who normally watch your network are going to tune in you want to have some control over what they see and in fact even though Fox News did carry the hearings live where they did was they would pull little pieces of information up on the screen just to make sure that their viewers understood the correct way to understand what they were hearing and so a really good example of this is that Fox News put up 3 different quote unquote facts about William Taylor One was that the president had called him a never trump or one was that the White House had accused him of triple hearsay that he hadn't been anywhere close to the information and one was that the Republican Party had said something like he wasn't trustworthy and so this is how they are introducing this Vietnam War vet Bronze Star winner lifetime public servant just so people know who are watching how to position him and so they've fractured. Media is going to protect the public from unwanted facts part of the public because we've seen significant movement among Democrats and independents toward supporting both impeachment and removal we haven't seen that same movement among Republicans and that's really important because that's who those Republican lawmakers heard listening to Fox News plays an important role in making sure that everyone's on the same page not just during the life hearings but in all of the commentary that surrounds impeachment but Republicans are what less than a 3rd of the electorate you wouldn't know it of course thanks to the Electoral College and precision gerrymandering that the g.o.p. Was better time to take advantage of than the Democrats were but that said once Republicans were the majority party so there was a time when it could be moved by public sentiment Oh absolutely but the Republican Party has wholesale abandon the popular politics I mean in the days of the 1980 s. In the early 1990 s. Ronald Reagan was winning landslide elections George h.w. Bush had the highest approval ratings of any president on record the Republicans in Congress sweep the 1000 $904.00 elections with the popular vote popular politics worked for conservatives in the Republican Party during those 15 years then they start to abandon them so how did they go from a party that revered popular politics to one that rejected them they learned that they wouldn't necessarily pay a big price for rejecting popular politics and there's $2.00 ways that we see this in the mid 1990 s. You have New Gingrich who is in charge of Republicans in the House and Bill Clinton the Democratic president and Newt Gingrich is trying out some different obstructionist policies he shuts down the federal government didn't the Republicans pay a price for that they. He sort of paid a price for it I mean Bill Clinton is reelected it's hard to say that that's a result of the government shutdown but the public blamed Republicans for shutting down the federal government and then a couple of years later they moved forward on the impeachment of Bill Clinton at no time did the American public ever support the impeachment of Bill Clinton that was clear not only by public polling but in 1908 before impeachment hearings that started but after the Starr report and all the stuff had been going on around impeachment voters who would normally be voting for Republicans in a midterm election just based on kind of the historical patterns actually vote for Democrats instead as a pretty stern rebuke of Republicans moving forward on impeachment What do they do then after the election they move forward with impeachment that sort of insularity to the public will should have cost them something so what happens in 2000. They win the presidency and keep control of both houses of Congress George w. Bush obtained the presidency there was no political price paid in the 2000 election for all of the and popular policies the government shutdown the impeachment of Bill Clinton and yes you can always put an asterisk next to the 2000 election just like you can to the 2016 election but that asterisk this part of the point you don't actually need to win the popular vote in order to control the presidency and actually we're seeing a growing gap between the popular vote and the Electoral College vote in ways that undermine people's faith in a broader sense of democracy so let's talk about some of the ways in recent years that public sentiment has had no impact on the Republican Party the one that comes to my mind is the gun control measure after the Sandy Hook massacre the Senate voted it down look at the polls both after Sandy Hook and after any of the numerous mass shootings that the United States has experienced the American people including Republicans by overwhelming majorities 8090 percent support different types of gun control and you cannot get it through the Republican Party you cannot get Republican support for it and that's only one of these issues like banning abortion is not something that the public supports overturning the Affordable Care Act not something that the public supports restrictions on immigration not something that the public supports and then there are all these political tactics like the debt ceiling crises and sequester ation all of these government shutdowns and things that were happening during the Obama years really unpopular policies really unpopular politics and what happens in 2016 Republicans control both the White House and both houses of Congress so you don't see a circumstance in which. The Senate might be persuaded to consider removing the president you know the president said during the campaign that he could shoot a person on 5th Avenue and not pay a price and people saw that as a piece of overblown rhetoric it was actually a governing philosophy and it is one that the Republican Party has signed on to using what we know about the past 3 to 4 years there is not an imaginable scenario in which Donald Trump violates the Constitution and is held responsible by Republicans in Congress that's not to say it can't happen but time and time again that line has been tested we have watched as Donald Trump has sat down loyalty test after loyalty test and Republicans again and again have proven their loyalty and in many ways impeachment is the final exam the way of getting all about loyalty on board in order to protect the Trump presidency Nicole thank you so much thank you for having me I'm sorry to be depressing. I don't forgive you Nicole hammer is a research at Columbia University and the author of messengers of the right conservative media and the transformation of American politics. Coming up the Watergate hearings were not exactly as history paints them just ask John Dean this is the media. The media is supported by Progressive Insurance committed to providing tools to enable customers to bundle home and auto insurance learn more at progressive dot com or 1800 progressive Now that's progressive. Far away from everywhere. And one woman she's going to find a. Story. This Saturday at 7 pm. Alaska. Features dramatic precipitation variation from the relatively dry Arctic to the rain forests of southeast but a change in climate is causing problems in some unexpected way it's southeast communities are working to adapt to a problem they never imagined drought will discuss water conservation in a rain forest and the forecasts for the future on the next talk of Alaska Tuesday at 10 am repeating 8 pm on f.m. 91 point one. This is on the media I'm top Garfield and I'm Brooke Ladd stone so proceedings of monumental importance of. The 4th time in American history but wait wait wait is it a good show from a television perspective Democrats have to come out stronger 1st episode for the same reason that when we watch the ban on Netflix or listening to a podcast to keep listening we're interested in episode one on Fox news this week Ken Starr best known for having an investigation into the Clinton administration who the impeachment proceedings there is no John Dean this is what the president told me this is what the president did We're far removed from next and Watergate at this stage certainly former White House counsel John Dean's famous 1973 Senate testimony about his firsthand knowledge of Nixon's coverup was striking to see and memorably metaphorical I began by telling the president that there was a cancer growing on the presidency that if the cancer was not removed the president himself would be killed by it and on Wednesday Dean himself was on c.n.n. With his own assessment of the proceedings and what struck me today in listening to these 2 witnesses is they already have more than they had against Richard Nixon to impeach him John Dean welcome to the show thank you so expand on what you said that there's already more at this stage than there was against Nixon were very advanced stage in this proceeding we've been at it almost since the outset of the Trump president. That you go back to the Mahler investigation where he stacked up 10 control instances of obstruction of justice that Nixon and that evidence is just sitting there on the shelf that was one of the thoughts in my head. That we know pretty much where the witnesses are going from the little bit that has leaked out from their executive session and it's pretty compelling evidence and they're very strong witnesses but when you are listening to the 2 witnesses on Wednesday was there a big moment that you felt was particularly revealing embassador someone's telephone call in a restaurant with a Taylor aide that was there to know the member of my staff could hear President Trump on the phone asking Ambassador Solomon about the investigations as a Solomon told President Trump the Ukrainians were ready to move forward following the call with President Trump the member of my staff asked investor Solomon what President Trump thought about Ukraine. As the song responded the President from cares more about the investigations of Biden which Giuliani was pressing for I think the Republicans would call that triple hearsay Well you know that's another thing that I find past maybe there are more cases throughout the country in federal courts where the federal rules of evidence apply that are determined based on hearsay because of all the exceptions to their say rule there's a rule that says that hearsay is inadmissible but there are so many exceptions to it you can drive a truck for them it still is a determining factor in many many cases in federal court absolutely in countless cases the Republicans don't seem to realize what they're talking about which surprises me that there are a few lawyers there it is really not a very good argument that the argument also is a little fallacious since the Republicans are the ones who don't want the primary sources to come up and testify the White House is withholding them and they certainly are putting them on their witness list like you where you are a direct source I really didn't want to be a witness and contrary to the Republicans saying that everything happened in transparent open environment during Nixon I actually testified before the House in executive session as in all the other witnesses against Nixon Yes His lawyer was there in fact his lawyer is one of the reasons that his case caved when the so-called smoking gun tape was released as a result of this Priem court saying that the president had to turn over all of his tapes to the grand jury is counsel shame St Clair realized that the president had lied to him and he had lied to the president so he went to the president and said Mr President you made me. A liar it may be obstruct justice it's my ethical obligation to go to the House Judiciary Committee and tell them I misled them do you think that today's Supreme Court would have made that decision to release the tapes the only person I've ever heard claim that us versus Nixon was not properly decided is justice Kavanagh on this bizarre radical conservative theory of the unitary executive who has all power and this is what we're seeing some of play out right now where they're claiming witnesses don't even have to show up in court for hearings because the super powers of our unitary executive Well the founders rather to has provisions in Article 2 and these conservative scholars seem to forget we were breaking from a monarchy wrote that Constitution and they want to bring the monarchy back because they see the future not being very good for conservatives you know we had Tim Natalee on the show a few weeks ago he's a historian former director of the Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum he noted one big difference between 973 and today Nixon was capable of shame and he also had a sense of presidential norms he covered daily did these abuse of power but wanted to maintain the appearance of cooperation while in fact he was engaged in very heavy stonewalling the president from doesn't seem to care and doesn't think that his supporters care if you compared the situation where Nixon was forced to reveal and turn over his tapes knowing that was the end of his presidency the same. Situation today I don't think that Donald Trump would do as Nixon did and turn over the tapes he'd say listen I've got the army you send your Marshall down here and I'll shoot him. And one of the reasons is that Donald Trump appears to have no shame Nixon could be embarrassed never see Donald Trump embarrassed the New York Times t.v. Critic James pano Wozzeck wrote this week that the media coverage of Watergate quote gave us much of today's concussive ballistic jargon of scandal there were bombshell there were smoking guns ever since we've measured controversies as if on a decibel meter judging them by their fireworks and explosive drama. But actually he says for a modern day viewer the 973 Senate hearings looked rather quiet the documents that you've just given me are. Xerox copies of. A line which I maintain myself. Quote There were no yammering newsroom panels no countdown clocks no hashtags there's just testimony in a hushed hearing room and 2 soft spoken anchors and humdrum desks trying to figure out what the president knew when he knew it and whether democracy still worked you know one of the things I never understood 'd after my testimony was people coming up to me and say they enjoyed my show. But what were you talking about it is not high theatre 'd it is not drama but those who are comparing it to past proceedings forget while 80000000 people may have watched my testimony it wasn't high drama it was a very general shot type interview question realized that Libby was not familiar with the election laws and asked if I would assist him in any way I could in getting yourself I mean when I was a lot I agree we were talking about shame one element of the scandal and all the others that we've had in the Trump presidency is that the Trump camp acts as though if you do something in public it isn't a crime and sometimes the media act that way too just last month even as the Ukraine whistleblower news was coming out the president publicly said this guy you know just started investigation into the bite because what happened to China is just about as bad as what happened with. When you phrase What do you make of that does that strike you as a a new affective kind of defense apparently he picked this up from Roy Cohn yes do it openly do it blatantly and people will just think you're a tough guy and not a criminal. You know maybe that's his thought I never found Roy to be much of a role model but maybe he's right it does actually take some elements essential to criminal charges away conspiracies little eye on secrecy that's the interesting part about Ukraine he really did do this in secrecy until the whistleblower brought it to light he wasn't calling on Ukraine to investigate the Bidens on the south lawn that happened after he got caught Senator Howard Baker had a sink to and still famous question in the Watergate hearings what did the president know. And when did he know how Baker was using that to Pen me down on exactly what the president knew and when he knew it thinking I'll get to perjure themselves why was he trying to set you up oh you know everybody thinks Howard Baker was Mr I'm in the middle I want to see justice done there to our bakers with the Howard Baker in the closed sessions where he voted to do everything he could to help Nixon and he had a back channel to the White House and then the public Howard Baker who always came out said we reached unanimous agreement and it was just all a fraud if the only person who really knew this and could record it for history was Sam Dash the chief counsel and he just found Baker to be a remarkable hypocrite. If this goes to the court it'll be. John Roberts who presides I think John Roberts would bring a lot of presents he may not want to the next ranking member is Clarence Thomas. Set opens itself up for searches in my mind and so I certainly hope Roberts does it when Rehnquist who did the Clinton impeachment later reported on it he said he never played more solitaire than he did during that time and he made very few rulings so do you think that the American public needs to watch these hearings or not. She you know. First of all a lot of people have day jobs so they're not tailored at this point for most people it'll be streamed it'll be on you to 'd It'll be somewhere and I think people should watch that put a face on these issues and who these people are and how their demeanor is and let them judge for themselves democracy is tough because people want to be entertained today many people find trump an entertaining show me the 1st time and they don't realize what the show is don't know where the story is going. The scandal to scandal the scandal that doesn't seem to bother him at all but it's certainly taking its toll on our system I'm not sure we can take 4 more years of this still have any kind of viable federal government. John Dean thank you very much my pleasure John Dean served as White House counsel for Richard Nixon from July 9th 70 to April 73. Coming up the bleeding of billions of billionaire. On the Media is supported by Progressive Insurance offering snapshots a device designed to reward safe drivers to learn more at progressive dot com or 1800 progressive Now that's progressive. It's fair to slam and this week on the show it's Thanksgiving around the world right here in America we're talking to 4 amazing immigrant chefs from Korea India Serbia and Mexico and how they celebrate. The most American holiday of them all that's coming up on the table from. Sunday at noon on f.m. $91.00. The story of Chief Joseph is still relevant for Americans today he made a plea for liberty and equality that is very modern in learn how older Americans are living in campers in R.V.'s to get temp work wherever they can find thousands of employers coast to coast and up into Canada hiring this incredibly mobile population it's on the next travel with Rick Steves Sunday at 6 pm on f.m. 91 point one. This week on the USA after Hurricane Maria an eccentric community of cryptocurrency investors a riots in Puerto Rico with promises to change everything this is why the latest I'm not aware of anyone believed. I think. But what do Puerto Rican think about that this week on the Team USA Sunday at 7 pm on f.m. 91 point one. This is on the media I'm Brooke Ladd stone and I'm Bob Garfield Well having a moment Mark Cuban is here and he has been a capitalist his whole life and he actually started with nothing that became a billionaire because of hard work and just smarts the space company fortune is teaming up with other aerospace giants for his successful trip to the moon so other steps toward you on Musk's a vision for a worldwide network of space based internet billionaire can avoid him these days it seems that 3 of them if you can Donald. From a running for president one of Democratic presidential candidate Tom Stiers Eades in Iowa has reportedly made a contribution offered to local politicians in the hopes of securing indorsements for Stiers presidential bid Michael Bloomberg according to a top adviser is preparing to enter the already crowded 2020 Democratic primary field that there billionaire reportedly giving him a little push a little support code is reporting that Amazon that Jeff Bezos called Bloomberg personally urged him to write Meanwhile 2 other candidates are making all billionaires the targets of their campaign the night. Michael Bloomberg the billionaire son. This election. Every budget every policy that we talk about is about who's going to get Opportunity is it going to go to the billionaires or is it going to go to our kids celebrated or reviled billionaires are dominating the national narrative in a way that seems so sudden and yet also eerily familiar in fact this might be called the 2nd go today age when you have a huge wealth piled up at the very very top a lot of poverty the middle class shrinking and a great deal government corruption that's it Deja plutocrat as Berkeley professor and former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich explains it's a very close parallel especially the very rich the super rich robber barrons of the 8980 ninety's the turn of the 20th century they were celebrated by the establishment of that day they were thought of as the entrepreneurs and great philanthropists of the era but at the same time they were monopolists they work cutthroat in terms of how. They got their money likewise Rice wrote this week nowadays to make a $1000000000.00 does not signify mastery within a free market it signifies unfair advantage in a highly rigged game we see again and again that for example and side monopoly laws have not really been enforced at I trust is almost a dead letter insider trading has increased dramatically we see that patents and trademarks and intellectual property rights have been expanded because a lot of people and a lot of big corporations have put a lot of money into politics to make sure that they've been expanded according to economists Thomas Piketty and others of research that's very carefully that 60 percent is inherited Now that is the people who got it didn't get it out of their own work they got it because they they're living off of the work of previous generations that was never part of the American dream and yet here we seem to be $890.00 redox a society in which a handful of robber barons have captured our imaginations and also a non-god the percentage of the world's wealth it's like the measles resurgence of the condition we thought we'd eradicated after all between 190-1980 the structures of plutocracy were largely dismantled via legislation unionization taxation muckraking journalism the Great Depression and of course the new deal this was f.d.r. In 1906 espousing economic populism through vilification of the super rich and we know now that government by. The name. Of God I'm not going to mob. That's I'm submitting or no here's the deal build agreed for it. We want to make these and pass. This when you. Turn to San so everybody else gets a chance. The. I was going into this mess Oddly the plutocracy did not approve that message I mean I can't use an expletive right hedge fund billionaire Leon Kuperman like Mark Cuban j.p. Morgan Chase's Jamie Diamond and ex Goldman Sachs c.e.o. Lloyd Blankfein squeal that the unfairness of it all is complete and both He's screwing around with the wrong guy because of AC I want to give it all away not 5060 percent I want to give it all away but I want to control the decision I don't want the government giving away my money and the idea of vilifying wealthy people is so bogus you know they're appealing. To the masses Speaking of which Cox and friends another finance billionaire calling out Elizabeth Warren ever her wealth tax proposal I was surprised that so many rich people were almost kind of quiet when they were attacked not this time not this time even the world's most famous philanthropist Bill Gates recently joined the billionaire cohort in resisting ambitious wealth tax plans from the Democratic left flank here he was speaking last week with Andrew Ross Sorkin in front of a live audience and I do think if you tax too much you do risk the capital formation innovation and us is the desirable place to do innovative companies I do think you risk that it happens that economic history doesn't support that conclusion but Gates position takes on an outsized influence not necessarily because of special expertise but because of another disproportionate effect of riches what journalists to Mel Bowie and on and geared to call the billionaire Vito Robert rush the. Billionaire class is powerful not just because they donate a lot of money to political candidates and they do a lot of lobbying and they're also powerful because they have a huge amount of influence over public opinion and over the not it's a chilling effect on not for profits on universities on inquiry so there is that kind of a veto Gates arguably more than anyone else on earth has the capacity to influence human priorities and with every philanthropic effort to further cement his reputation not as a robber baron but as a humanitarian Bill wondered what it would take to reimagine both toilets sewage systems what if you can fund inventors that could come up with something that's a 10th of a cost you know that's pretty magical and you end up saving millions of lives Gates philanthropic work is the main subject of a new 3 part Netflix documentary titled Inside Bill's brain directed by Davis Guggenheim of An Inconvenient Truth fame the film documents Gates' journey from tech titan to prolific do gooder the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has carefully invested Microsoft billions into lifesaving public health initiatives targeting polio malaria and other preventable diseases Oh and also he told Sorkin You know I've paid over 10000000000 in taxes I paid more than anyone in taxes I'm you know I'm glad but where are those billions ever rightfully his to begin with in the new book Goliath the 100 year war between monopoly power and democracy Matt Stoller chronicles the predatory tactics that both enrich to Bill Gates and landed him in federal court Matt welcome back to the show hey thanks for having me . If you'll permit me to stipulate that Bill Gates can be both a monopolist bully and an astonishingly brilliant and hands on philanthropist can we please turn our attention to the believe part Gates fortune was not solely the result of building a better mousetrap right so Bill Gates is obviously a very smart guy and he's a very good businessman but the reason he made $100000000000.00 instead of $20000000.00 or $50000000.00 is purely because of public policy changes that enabled monopolistic behavior copyright changes in 1906 in 1980 the lad the copywriting of software there was also a significant set of antitrust suits in the 1970 s. One of which was against i.b.m. And one of the suppliers that it used for the new personal computer was Microsoft and they allowed Microsoft to sell that operating system to other personal computer makers is very unlike how i.b.m. Operated but they did it because the d.j. Scared them and then the d.o.j. Dropped the suit in 1902 and essentially stop enforcing antitrust law so Bill Gates used a host of anti-competitive tactics that created the last generation of robber barons in the late 19th century early 20th century to monopolize the key on ramp to the most important and fastest growing industry in human history up to that point which was personal computers and that new software industry so behind the floppy bangs and the oversized glasses Gates just went all robber baron on the world in the Gilded Age of the late 19th century there were the likes of Andrew Carnegie Cornelius Vanderbilt and John d. Rockefeller to run roughshod on the marketplace you think Bill Gates was a sort of reincarnation of John d. Rockefeller Yeah that's right John d. Rockefeller was an oil refinery and so he essentially made a pact with other oil refiners and he basically accumulated a lot of shipping power so he went to the railroads and he said if a competitor actually ships on your railroad. Then you have to give me a rebate for every barrel of oil that they ship and he had so much buying power that the railroads had to say yes and then he would go to his competitors and he would say you can't succeed here so sell out to me and then he was able to essentially monopolize all oil refining but it wasn't because he was a better oil refiner it's because he used market power to demand better pricing terms from railroads who became dependent on him and he was able to control the entire industry and that's very much what Bill Gates did with operating systems so Bill Gates said to computer makers I'll give you a certain licensing fee if you put Microsoft operating systems dos and then windows but then I'm going to change that fee if you build computers with other operating systems so effectively you have to give me a rebate if you use any of my competitors products and you just can't compete with that so then he just rolled up the whole operating system market that's a Silver or Lead proposition Yeah that's right it's like the drug dealer you know he says you can get bribed or you can get a bullet right I mean it's not that violent he was then able to effectively dislodge loads 123 which controlled spreadsheets and then I believe His Word Perfect that controlled word processing and replaced them with what became Microsoft Word and Microsoft Excel what you always see with monopolists who control an important platform and they use their control of that platform to take control of markets that have to live on that platform but at this stage the revolution of personal computing is about to lead into a 2nd revolution of the Internet when it gets to so the most dangerous time for a monopolist is when they have a monopoly over an existing marketplace and then there's some technological inflection point that changes the marketplace for example Google had desktop search control and then there was a shift to mobile and that was the moment when there was an opportunity for new entrants all of a sudden. People were going to use this new thing called the Internet this new technology called the browser which is controlled by a company called Netscape could effectively replace or come out of Ty's the operating system so Bill Gates saw this and he said that's a really dangerous thing we need to control this new on ramp to this marketplace that could be even bigger than the personal computer which is the Internet so he built his own browser which was Internet Explorer and started bundling it with windows and started making deals making it harder and harder for Netscape to get on to computers and easier and easier for Internet Explorer to get onto computers towards the late one $990.00 s. And this is in a book by Gary Reback who's a lawyer that opposed Microsoft Microsoft called together a whole bunch of venture capitalists and they said look there's this new incredible thing called the Internet here are the places that we're going to invest and here are the places that you're going to be allowed to invest it was a little bit more subtle than that but that was sort of the gist of it all right but in the film speaking to Guggenheim Gates just shrugs that off a reasonable person might think you had a monopoly if monopoly means extremely high market share with short term market power the answer is yes if it means that we had a unchallengeable position where new and better technology didn't have a chance to replace us the answer is no well that's an answer antitrust regulators had a slightly different definition of Monopoly more along the lines of strong arming and in that case Gates a sense of impunity served him poorly in the end you trust trial prosecutors to cherry pick some video from Gates is deposition and play that actually to make him look like an arrogant smart ass I have no idea what you're talking about when you say ass when you want to go to find the Hi Terry Ok I don't know I don't want you to find right here even on. The publication of that affected that. Like with their feelings somebody cried or in the movie Gates claims that the video game it was unfair and prejudicial a certain sense of arrogance came through that that hurt us quite a bit it shouldn't hurt us because that's not what was on trial it turned out though it was part of what was on trial and where you are. In a certain sense people who made billions of dollars in their twenty's and manage you know thousands of people and decide which products they're going to do and not do yes that can appear to be quite arrogant that is quite a hint that you know one could perhaps argue self indicting these monopolies are autocrats Bill Gates is mentored Mark Zuckerberg Mark Zuckerberg is an autocrat one of the reasons that we have to encourage and force competition in markets and not allow anti-competitive behavior is because when you do then you get these people who are autocrats who accumulate large amounts of power and money and then use that to enforce a social vision on society and that's what we see with Bill Gates but it's also what we see now increasingly everywhere corrupting our politics corrupting global politics the arrogance that was on display at that trial it was real arrogance but it was also a function of the fact that our public policy framework in the 1980 s. Allowed Bill Gates to be extraordinarily greedy and thuggish All right so a year later came the verdict a federal judge found that Microsoft was a monopoly that uses its power and to stifle competition at the expense of consumers the district court judge the remedy that he chose was to split up the company who are going to split you up into operating system and then everything else. That remedy was overturned by an appeals court and Microsoft was vindicated on all these counts. And then I just started crying when Bill Gates says we were vindicated they're lying the original decision that Microsoft was a monopolist that had abused its monopoly power was not overturned they just changed the remedy to me when I look at this I think it's also crazy is that the remedy of just putting up the company was so insanely mild the Sherman Act is a criminal statute it also says that if you monopolize you get fined 3 times the amount that you got from monopolization because monopolization is a crime of theft you're taking other people's property when you use anti-competitive behavior so it should have been split up and I think it would have been a better company but he shouldn't have a fortune you know they should have put a 150000000000 dollars fine because the property that he got he stole it from other people using it to competitive tactics and he held back the development of technology by forcing everyone to use Windows which was not as good as it could have been if there had actually been competition so no gigantic confiscate Tory fines but then there was one really positive impact of the case you know oxygenated the market Charles Duhigg of the New York Times this story talking him former Microsoft executives who said we were thinking of killing this young company called Google through our control of the browser but we didn't do that because we were afraid of antitrust actions it got Microsoft to stop acting like a bully and allowed a flowering of innovation in the early to mid 2000 that allowed for a lot of great companies to form and Microsoft did not end up capturing social media didn't end up capturing e-mail or search or shopping a whole bunch of things that I think it probably would have been able to capture if it hadn't been restraint just like i.b.m. Was not able to capture the personal computer market because it was restrained by antitrust law. So in the year 2000 this chastened Bill Gates with his wife Melinda started the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation which has spent billions of dollars undertaking philanthropic works mostly in public health mostly in Africa but you believe that decisions on how to spend those dollars which had they been paid in taxes and slashed under the Sherman and a trust act of $890.00 would have been in the hands of governments not a private foundation and you think this kind of redistribution of wealth by one Titan is inherently any democratic. Yes So if somebody and I'm not saying this is gates but I'm just giving an analogy right it's like if somebody robbed a lot of banks and then gave some money to charity it's not a substitute for government it's competition with government you know the idea of building a new toilet to you know help sonically children is a good thing but I'll give you an alternative example of how we used to do this kind of thing so one of the things that Franklin Delano Roosevelt and our democratic government did in the 1930 s. Was just build a lot of toilets a lot of places in this country it did not have indoor plumbing we had very bad sanitation systems and the government improve people's lives dramatically through aggressive sanitation measures public systems do this extraordinarily well if they're well run what I look at the Gates Foundation I see I see a failure of public health infrastructure of a kind of libertarian philosophy which says just place power in the hands of private actors and then they can solve our social problems because they clearly can't f.d.r. 938 said weak democracies produce dictatorship if you have a weak democracy which we've had these since the late 1970 s. a Democracy where officials defer to private concentrations of power then you're going to be governed by someone like Bill Gates and people are going to look up to people like Bill Gates because they have lost the confidence that we the people can do these things because we the people have not done them for a while Matt thank you very much thank you Matt Stoller is the author of the law a 100 year war between monopoly power and democracy. That for this week's show on the media it's produced by a lot of us in the Burgess Michael Lo injured like a fettered John Hendren hand and Austin Texas Betty we've had more help from Charlotte Gartenberg and our show was edited by. Well our technical director is Jennifer Munson engineers This Week with Sam Bayer and Josh Papua Rogers is our executive producer faces composer Ben Allison road as theme on the media is a production of w n y c studios I'm booked lads and I'm Bob Garfield on the radio is the 40 by the Ford Foundation the John s. And James l. Knight Foundation and the listeners of. Support for Alaska Public Media comes from members like you thank you if it were 17 begins Alaska startup week for locals with new business ideas time to this home town Alaska is hosting 3 cell central startups meeting no Easter farm or an outdoor clothing manufacturer and a mother of twins with an airport vending machine for families the travel I'm Kathleen McCoy Join us Monday at 2 repeating at 8 on f.m. $91.00 Alaska public media or tell your spark speaker to play k s k a. Alaska's vast geography features dramatic precipitation variation from the relatively dry Arctic to the rain forests of southeast but a change in climate is causing problems in some unexpected waits southeast communities are working to adapt to a problem they never imagined drought will discuss water conservation in a rain forest and the forecasts for the future on the next talk of Alaska Tuesday at 10 am repeating at 8 pm on f.m. 91 point one. You're listening to kids Q Krige Alaska Public Media f m I do 1 point one connecting Alaskans life informed. From k.c.i. Deleo this is left right and center. Impeachment hearings have begun 13000000 Americans tuned in on Wednesday and President truck himself was angry tweeting about them on Friday but will they change minds as the House heads toward what could be in your party line vote to impeach before Christmas welcome to left right center you're civilized to provoke Avantha self-contained opinion bubbles the dominant political debate. Later in the show top White House adviser Stephen Miller's e-mails leaked and we know he was sending around links from white supremacist websites Nikki Haley is promoting her book is she also promoting herself as a possible vice president and Deval Patrick is running for president but does anyone care plus later in the show to Harold from the Project on Middle East democracy will join us to talk about President Trump's meeting with Turkish President what explains their cozy relationship even as the u.s. And Turkey drift apart all that plus conspiracy theories about Jeffrey Epstein's death is coming up next on left right and center We'll be right back. Live from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm Jeanine Herbst White House budget official Mark Zandi gave testimony in a closed door hearing of the House impeachment inquiry that is looking into the troops administration's withholding of u.s. Military aid for Ukraine last night lawmakers question David homes of Foreign Service officer at the u.s. Embassy and Ukraine N.P.R.'s Ron Elving reports Holmes says he overheard a phone conversation between Trump and u.s. Ambassador to the e.u. Gordon Sunline he indicated Trump was not so concerned about defending Ukraine from Russian incursions that's what the military aid was about but he was very concerned about getting Ukraine to investigate former Vice President Biden giving a boost to troops reelection campaign N.P.R.'s Ron Elving reporting in Iraq anti-government protesters reoccupied of vital bridge that leads to Baghdad's Green Zone N.P.R.'s Jane around her port security forces pulled back after deadly clashes with demonstrators a crowd of protesters dismantled a concrete wall at a key intersection in central Baghdad and surged on to a bridge they'd been driven back from after security forces retreated Overnight several protesters were killed and dozens wounded in Baghdad on Friday when security forces used live bullets and tear gas to disperse the demonstrations the latest anti-government protests have been going on since October with protesters killed every day in Baghdad and in the south of Iraq interacts main cargo port of the us are protesters on Saturday again blocked the gate of the port protesters want an end to what they say is a corrupt government that does nothing for them Jane around n.p.r. News in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq the State Department imposed a travel ban on Cuba's interior minister who says are going to Rio or May ho over rights violations in Venezuela secretary of state my palm pail says in a statement in addition the Cuban minister was also responsible for Arbor. Turly arresting and detaining thousands of Cuban citizens and he had overseen the torture of political dissidents detainees and prisoners as well as the number of some of these and vigil individuals by police and security forces prosecutors in South Jersey say gunfire at a high school football game last night did not target students 5 men including the alleged gunman of.