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And I shal Football League is up holding the indefinite suspension of Cleveland Browns star defensive end Miles Garrett Garrett who was a number one draft pick in 2017 is banned for the final 6 regular season games and the playoffs after he pulled the helmet off Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Mason Rudolph and hit him over the head with it Garrett argued the suspension should be reduced the 2 teams face off again in December mice have been getting drunk at the Salt Institute in San Diego researchers there are trying to understand how brain signals may predict can both compulsive drinking and rodents and possibly humans surely not shot Lonnie from member station has the story consider an open bar drinks are free so getting that 2nd cocktail might seem like a no brainer but what if this bar becomes a cash bar would you keep drinking if you had to pay salt scientists Kate's high says she was curious about compulsive drinking while mice don't pay for drinks after giving them a few she introduced a consequence a shock to the foot or a bitter taste and she took images of the brain when the mice had a swig if the neurons were more excited the animals were more likely to be low drinkers of the neurons were inhibited than the animals were more likely to be compulsive drinkers after the mice had a few drinks some of them experienced decreased brain activity and were more likely to keep drinking Tice's studying these brain signals could be one way to determine whether rodents or people develop alcohol dependence for n.p.r. 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Dot org This is Fresh Air I'm Terry Gross the impeachment inquiry is investigating the irregular channel through which members of the trumpet ministration and the president's personal lawyer allegedly tried to make u.s. Military assistance to Ukraine conditional on Ukraine investigating Trump's possible campaign opponent Joe Biden My guest has been examining how the influence also worked in the opposite direction how oligarchy from Ukraine have tried to influence in American policy through people who have been in the trumpet ministration or associated with Trump that includes several people who have been convicted or of being investigated for working as an unregistered foreign lobbyist then Freeman is the director of the foreign influence Transparency Initiative at the Center for International Policy He's also the author of the 2012 book the foreign policy option Ben Freeman welcome to Fresh Air Let's start with a list if you can provide one of members or at least some of the members of the trumpet ministration either serving time or being investigated for failing to register as a foreign lobbyist. Thank you for having me how much time do we have a question. There is sort of a short list of folks there and I think probably the most recognizable is Paul Man afford but we have other folks like Michael Flynn and Carter page 2 in it it would appear that Roger Stone might might eventually be subject to Farrah violations as well the way hasn't yet but there's rather a long list of Trump associates that of our already been indicted for Farrah violations we have been hearing about Trump administration pressure on Ukraine to investigate the Bidens in order to receive the promised military aid to Ukraine but insolence went the other way to an ad like to talk with you about that how Ukraine tried to influence u.s. Policy in the trumpet ministration Giuliani is currently under investigation and I believe one of the things he's being investigated for is being an unregistered lobbyist for Ukraine what is he suspected of having done as well as an unregistered lobbyist. Quite a bit actually when we look at Giuliani's behavior overseas he ostensibly according to his own accounting was working exclusively for the president of the United States but what we've already learned and I think we're going to learn a lot more is that he was actually being paid by some folks overseas we learned from the indictment of 2 of his associates left Parness and Froome and that he was actually paid at least a half a 1000000 dollars from work that he did connected with them and it appears based on that a indictment that that money came from a Ukrainian oligarch and what exactly Giuliani was doing for that money is still very much an open question. But it at least appears that Giuliani was doing work to influence u.s. Public opinion on behalf of some of these Ukrainian and other foreign interests to to to shape u.s. Policy in the us if that's true then it would require Rudy Giuliani to register under the Foreign Agents Registration Act Do you have any idea what a Ukrainian oligarchy or plural Ukrainian. Might have wanted from the us there actually many issues between the u.s. In Ukraine but one of the principal issues is the the issue of corruption in Ukraine in corruption for a variety of reasons is in Demick in new crane bribes are rampant it's tough to get a straight business deal done in Ukraine in there are very extensive ties between the Ukrainian government in the Russian government and Lattimer Putin and so a big issue for the u.s. Is trying to stamp out that corruption and try and get Ukraine on a more democratic footing and a less corrupt footing and so a lot of u.s. Efforts there are to trying remove some of the corrupt officials and just to get Ukraine institute policies that are going to improve governance in Ukraine as you can imagine that doesn't go over so well for some of those facials who are corrupt are some of the business folks in the oligarchs who are profiting from a very corrupt system there and so some of these oligarchs are very incentivized to resist those anti-corruption efforts and to keep corrupt officials in place and to continue to profit from it so all of our acts in Ukraine don't want Ukrainian corruption investigated. Yeah that's exactly right it's been a big issue for the u.s. As the u.s. Tries to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit a big part of those efforts from the u.s. Is to clamp down on corruption in Ukraine try and create more democratic process see as you know a better more transparent economic system in Ukraine and so for these old darks and in many ways that's that's a threat to their livelihood that's a threat to a system that they've been profiting from immensely and so you've been seeing a friction between all of our in the u.s. Government efforts to fight that corruption in a big part of There is all of our. Fight has been to recruit sympathetic folks in the u.s. Or in some cases maybe not even sympathetic folks but to just recruit folks in the u.s. That can help to influence the u.s. Government on their behalf and what examples of that be Giuliani's associates left Parness and eager for yeah that's exactly right Terry a big part of what Parness and Froome in and there are other associates were doing was to try and garner influence on on behalf of some of these Ukrainian interests it included a everything from them trying to get access to different politicians in sort of cozying themselves up to everybody to show us politicians Yeah that's correct and it was kind of a who's who of us politicians to a win all the way up the line to President Donald Trump their photos of Parness and for a moment with the president himself in a big part of what they did to get there was they made a series of according to the indictment they they allegedly made a series of illegal campaign contributions to bunch of different members of Congress in that included illegal campaign contributions that were actually coming from one of these Ukrainian oligarchs. Did those contributions include money to a pro Trump super pac Yes they did there were contributions to approach from Super Pac in a number of high profile Republican officials to in by and large the scheme they had it worked in that they were able to to get access to a number of these elected officials they were able to pose with photo ops they were able to get their message sort of through. Until the investigation came down in all this work that they were doing was exposed and as we know now the investigation is still ongoing and Giuliani himself is being investigated for his role in this and for possible violations of the Foreign Agents Registration Act So can you connect the dots for us between Giuliani's role as an unregistered lobbyist for Ukraine trying to influence American policy in a way that favored oligarchy connect that to his role having this irregular channel to Ukraine trying to make. U.s. Military aid to Ukraine conditional on the Ukrainian government investigating the Bidens. I think with Giuliani we have kind of a classic case of playing both sides in we know from Giuliani's own statements in from Trump that he was serving as the president's personal lawyer. In that capacity we know that he was working to get the Ukrainians the Ukrainian government to conduct some investigations of the president's political rivals and that's all sort of on the public record and well known. Less well known is how he was working in the other direction on behalf of some Ukrainian interest to get favorable outcomes here in the u.s. The details of this are still coming out and we don't know everything yet but from the looks of it he was being paid by Ukrainian interest some of these all of darks to get favorable outcomes for here in the u.s. As well so in a sense that he's serving as this sort of conduit between the u.s. In the Ukraine and he's Eason one way or another benefiting from from both sides so we're talking about 2 sets of people in Ukraine the oligarchy who are connected to Russia and have a lot of business interests and then the relatively new government government in Ukraine headed by President Selenski who got elected on an anti-corruption platform . Yeah that's absolutely correct in the Lewinski is really finding himself in I think very unfortunate position in that he he gets elected on this anti-corruption platform and you know it's clear from the elections in Ukraine that the Ukrainian people are tired of all this corruption they're they're tired of seeing their country's resources squandered and so they elect somebody like Selenski and then he comes in to office in these sort of chief benefactor to the Ukrainian government is the United States in through the United States is Donald Trump and one of the 1st issues that he has to deal with is that this this windfall of military assistance that the u.s. Has been giving to the Ukraine every single year sort of without fail is suddenly in jeopardy in so from Zelinsky point of view I think he were actually just says I've got to figure out exactly what I need to do to make sure that that money keeps coming in and so I think that a lot of the focus that people have been putting on Zelinsky comments about his conversation with Trump and whether it was a quid pro quo in in all that I think is a Linsky is very much doing what he has to do to protect his country in doing what he thinks that he has to do to make sure that military assistance keeps coming to Ukraine I don't know if this is outside of what you've been studying but what are Giuliani's business interests in Ukraine. I really Terry I think that's kind of the $1000000.00 question. Actually that's probably the multimillion dollar question. That I think a lot of investigators would like to know in I think our own raveling we know already from the partisan Froome an indictment that allegedly part of that was a half $1000000.00. Payment to 2 Giuliani for his work there. We also know that Giuliani has is his cyber security company has done some work in the country as well I think what we don't know the full scope of yet is who else in Ukraine was paying Giuliani for favorable work he might have been doing for them in the u.s. This is obviously a guy who has a direct line to the president of the of the United States in so it would. Don't think it would stretch the imagination to think that more payments were coming to Giuliani from folks in Ukraine let me reintroduce you here if you're just joining us my guest is Ben Freeman and he's the director of the foreign influence Transparency Initiative at the Center for International Policy We'll be right back after we take a short break this is Fresh Air support for g. Comes from our listeners and from Renu at medical eye center re new offers the services of Dr Matthew how and eye surgeon was specialty training in facial cosmetic procedures such as eyelid and brow laughs news results oriented medical spawn features medical grade treatments Botox dermal feller's and laser skin region of a nation striving to give patients lasting visible results medical eye center celebrating 100 years of improving vision in our community our region and our world. This is Fresh Air and if you're just joining us my guest is Ben Freeman and he investigates foreign influence on American politics he's the director of the foreign influence Transparency Initiative at the Center for International Policy and author of the 2012 book the foreign policy auction. So the Ukraine connections that we've been talking about in the unregistered lobbying that we've been talking about relate to the impeachment inquiry the investigation investigation underway now that's just kind of dial back a little bit and look at the mother investigation because Ukraine was a part of that too Paul man a fart and his business associate Rick Gates had deep connections to Ukraine was man of 49 registered lobbyist for Ukraine Yeah Paulina 4 was convicted of being an unregistered foreign agent for the work that he did in Ukraine and he it was also convicted of a other crimes as well. But a big part of the work he was doing in Ukraine it very much was as a foreign agent. For the former president there you go bitch who was a pro Russian president a pro Russian president Yeah that's exactly right and I think it's fair to say that you know Nicco bitch was very much part of the corrupt system in Ukraine that the Ukrainian people I think you know had a big backlash against in this last election when they when they elected Zelinsky. Young cove It was very much out of the Russian model he was even friends with. President Vladimir Putin. I think widely seen as a corrupt individual in a big part of me and for its work on his behalf was basically trying to whitewash his image here in the u.s. In try to convince folks here in the u.s. That this wasn't a bad guy this was this was somebody that we could count on in trying you know really shy shine up what was otherwise a very corrupt president and miniport was being paid handsomely for this effort speaking of millions of dollars a minute for it was literally being paid millions of dollars for this work the inner. I think thing about it is the work itself that he did is not actually legally if he had registered in you know been on the up in up and said you know here's my contract. That I'm doing here's the work that I'm executing and if he had reported all that under the Foreign Agents Registration Act and been transparent about it. There's actually nothing illegal about that which I think is the most surprising thing to me about the mean afford situation is that he didn't do that because Paul manna for has been working for foreign powers. Some of the worst of the worst of foreign dictators over the years and he's been registered under the Foreign Agents Registration Act previously so I think he knows the statute very well he knows when registration is required he knows what's we required of registrants he just simply didn't do it this time. To me and that's that's sort of the most shocking thing here. Do you have any sense of why Ukraine is connected to 2 different ends of the trumpet ministration you know you've got man a fort on the one hand and then you've got Giuliani and this irregular channel on the other hand and Giuliani is the president's personal lawyer but you know obviously very connected to the Trump administration so you've got you know the man of Ford and the Giuliani and I don't know if they were ever coordinated or not but it seems to be the Ukraine connection seems to be coming from separate directions. Yeah you know I think that's exactly right in I I don't think we know yet whether there is a Giuliani man afford connection I would be too surprised if we later learned that there was that connection but really from the beginning to end of. The Trump presidency and even before really we we see this connection between people in terms or of it in Ukraine and I think a big part of that goes even a level beyond Ukraine the trumpet ministration really didn't have the foreign policy foundation that other presidencies have. The Trump campaign it wasn't it wasn't stocked with foreign policy experts and really the Trump were bit is not filled with a lot of foreign policy experts in so the the problem that presented for Trump was it became very hard for Trump to fill key positions in the foreign policy establishment and it became hard for him I think to find legitimate sources of foreign policy advice in this this kind of created a vacuum. Of information that you know sort of ne'er do wells are people seeking to profit from that vacuum could really fill and I think within that it created an opportunity an environment for folks like Paul Mann afford to come in and offer his foreign policy advice during the campaign and then later I think it afforded a huge opportunity for Giuliani and Giuliani's associates to come in fill that vacuum in to say we can provide the foreign policy advice that you might be lacking . In all the while these people are profiting from that work immensely. How do you think the Citizens United decision which opened the door for. Corporations to contribute money to campaigns equating campaign contributions to free speech how do you think the Citizens United decision has affected the ability of other countries to influence American elections I think citizenship united in many ways it opened up kind of Pandora's box of opportunities for foreign money and foreign influence to get into u.s. Elections one of the the 1st examples that I'll say is with us subsidiaries of foreign corporations now before Citizens United you r.t. Had the opportunity for u.s. Citizens who were working for a foreign Kurt corporation they could make campaign contributions all they wanted within the legal limits of course but post Citizens United that foreign subsidiary itself had the opportunity to use some of that subsidiaries own funds to make campaign contributions where it gets tricky is that the subsidiary can make contributions but the foreign corporation still can't because that's foreign money right but how do we really know that the money is coming from the subsidiary in not the foreign corporation itself and I think if we're honest with ourselves we really don't know money's very fungible and you know we can businesses move money around all the time so it's I think it's realistically it's impossible to say and guarantee that money coming from foreign corporations subsidiaries here is all u.s. Money. My guest is Ben Freeman director of the foreign influence Transparency Initiative at the Center for International Policy We'll talk more after a break and we'll hear from. The executive producer and the design supervisor of the Netflix series the dark it's a prequel to the 1902 film that was directed by the other Jim Henson the series like The film is entirely performed by puppets. Who want to see a deeper sense of the person behind the resume learn more it indeed. Jefferson Public Radio provides an easy way for nonprofit organizations to get the word out about their community events simply visit the j.p. Our website at N.P.R.'s org and click on community calendar once there you'll find some simple instructions on how to post information about your nonprofit groups events so that it's available to both the web visitors and j p r announcers You can also use the site to search for other events happening in the region it's the j.p. Our community calendar. Dot org. All politics is local is now more like a local politics is national rather than laboratories of democracy we have red labs in blue labs Texas and Tennessee and Ohio being Republican dominated in California Colorado in Illinois all being dominated by Democrats state governments are working or not that's next time on the take away is politics with Amy Walter from w. N.y.c. N.P.R.'s Friday morning a tan on the news and information service of j.p. Our. This is Fresh Air I'm Terry Gross let's get back to my interview with Ben Freeman about foreign influence in American politics he directs the foreign influence Transparency Initiative at the Center for International Policy He's also the author of the 2012 book the foreign policy auction He's an expert on the Foreign Agents Registration Act which requires lobbyist for foreign countries to register with the u.s. Government failure to do so figured into cases against Trump's former campaign manager Paul man a fort and former national security advisor Michael Flynn. It's the foreign agent Registration Act that requires people who are lobbying on behalf of a foreign power to register with the u.s. Government as a foreign lobbyist What are some of the other things that far in the foreign agent Registration Act requires foreign lobbyist to do. Fair actually begin. Propaganda statute in 1938 in that the reason Pharaoh was initially enacted was because of Nazi propagandist in the in the u.s. And it's one of the few issues in our sort of hyperbolic rhetoric in politics that actually is Hitler's fault Hitler it's an all these Nazi propagandist here to kind of create sympathy for Germany and to to kind of rally pro German sentiment in the us. And we fortunately took notice of it and we we passed this law that would require these propagandas to have to register and to sort of disclose what they were up to in their transparency efforts in Farah today really upholds that same spirit you say that the American political system is at a historical high point in a Deval more ability to foreign influence because there are so many avenues for foreign money to have an impact on u.s. Elections now we know a lot now about social media and how foreign powers including Russia have manipulated our social media but what are some of the other avenues for foreign influence on American politics. Unfortunately the number of avenues available to foreign powers to influence us democracy are quite immense. I like to take the approach of looking inside out from Washington d.c. Right here in Washington d.c. There is a half $1000000000.00 a year foreign influence industry where in a majority of countries in the world have paid lobbyists in p.r. Firms on their payroll looking to push their interest in Congress in the executive branch here in looking to shape the media narrative here extensively in another part of what happens here in d.c. Is that a lot of foreign powers fund what we actually call Think tanks in d.c. And in these are nonprofit organizations that are staffed with subject matter experts on you know anything from climate change to the defense budget to u.s. Policy in the Middle East for example. In a lot of the funding from these think tanks it comes directly from foreign governments in many cases it comes with strings attached in there are there are plenty of stories out there about think tanks not being able to report on certain issues that a foreign funder. Find sensitive or on the other hand producing reports that are quite flattering to the foreign government that is funding them even beyond think tanks the media outlets here often work directly with the agents of foreign governments in their work on crafting stories. In this can be . Sort of as an inconsequential as a foreign agent helping to grant an interview with the country's ambassador to a preferred journalist or it can go so far as. Sometimes foreign agents actually help to write stories that journalists are producing Unfortunately for the public the public doesn't usually know when and when a foreign agent has a hand in a story that's coming out from a seemingly unbiased media outlet and so really the public is left in the dark can you give an example of a foreign agent influencing or helping to write an article or to do feature in a newspaper or broadcasting Yeah. A couple years ago a man named Norm Coleman he produced an op ed in The Hill and Norm Coleman might ring a bell to some listeners because he's a former senator Norm Coleman. Of Minnesota from Minnesota yes in Norm Coleman's a senator in his tag line in the op ed that he wrote in The Hill that was quite favorable to Saudi Arabia. It just mentioned that he's a former senator from Minnesota what it failed to mention was that he was also a paid lobbyist working for you guessed it Saudi Arabia Coleman story is indicative of a lot of what we've been seeing lately in d.c. Where prominent members of Congress Representative senators and their staffers 2 who are doing great work for the country elected officials when they retire they are joining lobbying consulting and p.r. Firms who are working directly on behalf of foreign governments what countries do you think are using money most effectively right now to influence policy in the u.s. Or to influence elections in the u.s. . That's a really tough question actually because the nation has been so focused on Russian interference in and I think rightly rightfully so in many ways I mean the Russians very clearly tried to hijack the 2016 election every indication is they're going to try to do the same thing in 2020 so I think a lot of the focus on Russia is very justified but there's a reason why we're talking about all of the illegal activity that the Russians have done is that they don't have a real stablished foreign influence operation here in the u.s. That works through legal channels the Russian lobby here is woefully ineffective woefully powerless. In that's just not true for other countries I think many other countries do a much much better job of influencing the u.s. Political process without having to go to links of sabotaging an election in really for the Russians going after an election is in many ways a last resort you know resorting to something like that I think shows not not just the power of the you know Russian influence operations but a weakness of them in a sense in you see other countries who are able to to get influence in the u.s. Without going to such extremes and I think some of the most prominent examples are many of our allies Japan in South Korea for example year in and year out those countries spin the most on foreign influence here in the u.s. . You probably don't think of those countries when you think of sort of your nefarious lobbyist you know roaming the halls of Congress in trying to line the pockets of Congressman but those countries do spin. Extensively on their influence operations here in a lot of what they're spending it on is just for basic economic reasons by promoting trade between Japan South Korea and the Us provoke promoting the military alliance between Japan South Korea and the us behind them I would say I would point folks to countries in the Middle East in specifically Saudi Arabia the United Arab Emirates in the Qatari government in of course I would be would be remiss in this question if I didn't mention the Israel lobby. Which for years has been you know widely considered one of the most influential lobbying operations in d.c. If not the most influential lobbying operation in d.c. a Lot of Israel's lobby comes from American Israelis here and so they're not registered under the Foreign Agents Registration Act because they are American citizens. But that combined with what is a pretty stout fair registered Israel lobby I think still makes Israel one of the most influential countries when it comes to influence in u.s. Foreign policy. Well Ben Friedman thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you so much for having me Terry Ben Freeman directs the foreign influence Transparency Initiative at the Center for International Policy after a break we'll hear from Lisa Hanson and Toby Froude the executive producer and the design supervisor of the Netflix series The Dark Crystal a prequel to the 1902 film that was directed by Lisa's father Jim Henson the series like The film is entirely performed by puppets This is Fresh Air support for j p r comes from our listeners and from Wooldridge Creek winery Woodridge Creek winery organs 1st combined winery creamery and charcuterie announces Vin farms new expanded fall menu at their tasting room located in historic downtown Grants Pass defining farm direct wine country cuisine Vin farm offers a unique dining and tasting experience with handcrafted wine cheese and small plates open for lunch dinner and tasting daily private party reservations are available more at w c v dot farm. Support for n.p.r. 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Learn more at progressive dot com or 1800 progressive This is Fresh Air in 1902 Jim Henson produced and directed The Dark Crystal a movie that was a big departure from his work with his lovable Muppets sure it was made with puppets but the Dark Crystal as its name suggests was a dark fantasy adventure tale the movie was popular at the time and went on to achieve cult status and now there's more of its world to explore on screen Netflix has released a 10 episode prequel called The Dark Crystal age of resistance and like the movie it's an acted entirely with puppets The Dark Crystal is a beautifully rendered and compelling show that rivals the depth of storytelling of that other recent fantasy show Game of Thrones and it's done with very little c.g.i. Our producer Sam Briger spoke to 2 people involved in bringing it to life who both have family ties to the original movie Lisa Henson is one of the show's executive producers She's also the eldest daughter of Jim Henson and c.e.o. Of the Jim Henson Company our other guest is the show's design supervisor Toby Froude Toby's father Brian is an artist whose fantasy paintings inspired Jim Henson in making the original movie Toby's mother Wendy is a designer and puppet maker both of Toby's parents worked on the original movie and the new series. Let's start with a clip from the new show in this scene the evil creatures the stack sees that rule the world of thrall are complaining because the crystal that provides them with Life Energy is no longer strengthening them the voice actors you'll hear include Benedict why. Harvey Fierstein Simon Pegg Keegan Michael Key Jason Isaacs and Mark Hamill. Furrows damn well what did you like. Now their day nothing the date of was. Still being taken much gets added me. To the ground protect the songs like. Brought up the road at the Crystal will not get. We'll talk. A lot. That's a scene from the Netflix series The Dark Crystal age of resistance and I'm speaking with Lisa Hanson the executive producer and Toby Froude the design supervisor Lisa Hanson and Toby Freda welcome to Fresh Air. We're happy to be here thank you very much can you talk about the scope of this project pretty much everything that you see on screen has to be made by hand as in the right. But this is one of the things that people find so marvelous about The Dark Crystal world is that there's a sense of incredible hand made artistry to it because you can see the puppets are are made and they're there sculpted and painted and the creatures have hairs hand punched into them you know it's just every plant is is sculpted arc and built and installed in the landscape and it is just a remarkable amount of of artistry and I think you really treasure that in times when so much is done in c.g. Because c.g. Can do everything and it's so much easier in c.g. At this point so it's so special to see a world where artists made made what you're looking at so the bad guys if you're show the Scots us or they're just like delicious Leavell they're they're sort of like this the embodiment of the 7 deadly sins and you could throw in a couple extra sins in there can you describe what they look like. The sky axes are a. Vulture a bird like. Creatures that are. Sort of flamboyant and magnificent in their own rights and then in their own ways of of the frivol way of costumery that go around them but underneath they are just sort of strange malicious and birds that that want power and rule. And fight amongst themselves they are predators they are birds of prey they are strange beings and. And yet they you know they they love they love to talk and play with their food no matter what it means and. It's funny that you call them birds some people think they're reptilian but since that's really the birds are dinosaurs right so yes yeah they are they have a little dinosaur a little bird in them but the costumes are so extraordinary and you know I do hope when people see the series that they can see how incredible the costumes are that the sketches these are wearing Well let's talk about making a Gelfand which is the hero race of your show and they're sort of Eltham like creatures they kind of look like seventy's Margaret Keane painting with with pointy ears maybe with the really big eyes and the things when you when you actually made the puppets that you were going to use for the show the they seem to have scrolls right there you put the skin on and the there's you have eyes in there and then there's motorized parts within the skull but then there's a space for a puppet here to put their hand to manipulate the mouth as I write yes that's right yeah you do a sculpt and then you mold it and you create the skull he put they have the foam latex skin over the top of that and inside and especially now as with you know the advance of technology we have you know mechanics and motors inside of the top of the head but you still have to have enough room for the hand for a puppet his hand to be in the mouth and move it around. And then come down into the body and it sort of sits on your arm it is you know a girl thing is probably about 3 feet tall from head to toe and that's just you know from waist height up it's about your forearm to hand to hand. From the head to waist so that's the sort of scale we're working with but it's and then those are the mechanics and then you've got to dress them and make them feel natural on top but even with all the mechanics underneath so how many people does it take 2 to work puppet like you have the person with their hand in in the in the head of the puppet but then you also have other people right that are helping create their performance Yes So you'd have you know one main performer in the head and then you have an assist who would be on the other hand and moving with them and helping them move the body depending on what they're doing and then you would also potentially have another person on a radio controller looking at a screen or a monitor working facial features depending on the character but isn't it's interesting that there are there are so many more controls in the Gulf and heads now and that we challenge the Creature Shop to make them more expressive and one puppet in particular that one of the lead characters brayer that character has incredible mobility and yeah I was going to say that she has these great side glances that she sort of like Tilt her head down to look sideways and it was very expressive the puppet of Bray is such an extraordinary puppet and the puppets here Alice Tinian is also extraordinarily talented so she was able to perform all of the facial movement herself and it comes to life in an amazing believable way and when I look at the performance that she achieved as puppets here I feel like you know she's an extraordinary actress and was able to make Breyer's so expressive and then of course Anya Taylor joy put her voice to it and it was a perfect marriage but but that puppet is an extraordinary puppet and has so much expressiveness bill. Can you talk about just the physical rigor of working with these puppets I mean like the people that are working in the smaller puppets they're hunched down and it seems like that would require a lot of stamina there then the the larger puppets they're in this really. Maybe claustrophobic puppet and you have to spend hours and I mean it must take a lot of a lot of exertion. Does only the puppet is go through so much to to achieve a performance and for hours at a time you know there are throughout the days a they are you know they're holding. The door for 5 to 10 pounds above their heads all they've got backpacks on holding the weight of a puppet they're hunched down on their haunches you know with alms out for a mystic say something like that they're there in all quite hard positions at all times but they they do it they they sort of trained to be out to get themselves into those positions and they rehearse to make sure that it feels right and looks right on screen but it is an amazing ballet underneath the camera to make these puppets move around the space in the set that you see. Relistening to the interview fresh air producer Sam Briger recorded with Lisa Henson and Toby Froude about their Netflix series The Dark Crystal age of resistance after a break Lisa Hanson will talk about growing up in the world of Sesame Street and her father Jim Henson's Muppets This is Fresh Air Just because you're on the road we're live outside the j.p. 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Org or call us at 18726191 this is Fresh Air Let's get back to the interview fresh air producer Sam Briger recorded with Lisa Henson and executive producer of the Netflix series The Dark Crystal age of resistance and Toby Froude the show's design supervisor It's a prequel to the 1902 film The Dark Crystal unlike the movie The show is a fantasy adventure entirely performed by puppets the film was directed by Lisa's father Jim Henson Toby's parents worked on the film to Lisa Henson is no c.e.o. And president of the Jim Henson Company. So you guys remember watching the original movie when it came out I mean Lisa you would have seen at them the total you would have cut you're going to come to it a little bit later since you weren't even born I remember growing up with the movies certainly. It was certainly years later obviously when I was growing up I watched both the Dark Crystal and Labyrinth him and there were major pieces of my childhood but yeah I always remember watching that movie and being astounded by it and fascinated by the idea of of this thing because it really didn't feel like puppets It never has. And that's the beauty that I think stood the test of time for so many Well I worked on the on the movie as a p 8 during preproduction and while the wild creatures were being built at the Creature Shop in London and then then I went back to college and didn't see anything for a long time and when my father showed me his early cut of it his director's cut there was something really wrong with it and and it's I'm not saying that was my observation there was something wrong with it it was everybody's observation he had had a couple of really scary bad previews because people couldn't follow the movie at all and he had several of the characters just not speak English so the sketch seas were babbling in a fake language but the film was incredibly difficult to understand so that's how I 1st saw it and you know they were already scrambling to write a script for for it to match the lip flaps of the sketches. And pore David Odell and and and my dad had to like write a script to match the cut and it would match the lip flaps so you know in some ways we were still wrangling with this. This problem when we came to do the series because you know we had always imagined that the sky were had like you know rich and important things to say but when you watch the original film like they hardly say anything at all and they're kind of squawking and blurting out short sentences so we've actually changed the the style of the sketch sees a little bit in the series they they are quite articulate and they have lately or you know remarks because we were we were struggling with this technical problem that they had in the film at least I just had a few questions for you about growing up with your dad Jim Henson So you've said that when you were young and told kids that your dad was a puppet you felt sorry for you. That is true we were we were growing up in Greenwich Connecticut which was at the time a pretty conservative place where a lot of people's parents were bankers and and I got the strong feeling that people thought my father did birthday parties when I was that he was about 50 or what's like your 1st memory of having puppets or Muppets be a larger part of your life than say other kids. Like I did grew up on sets. When I was very young my father did a lot of righty shows that were exciting to watch you know he did the Ed Sullivan Show many times then came Sesame Street so when Sesame Street went on the air I was already. 10 years old and so I didn't learn to people of asked me if I've learned to read or write from Sesame Street is like no but I was reading the scripts. So I kind of was on the set all the time as a as a kid and we had a interesting point of view you know growing up on the sets I remember a lot of the puppetry from down below you know from seeing a kike kind of park myself near underneath the stage and watch a monitor like in the corner underneath watching people's feet and the puppet tearing from below. But we also spent a lot of time in the workshop where it was like a just most charming crazy atmosphere his main puppet builder Don saline was just a genius of practical jokes and charming mouse mazes around the shop and you know it was a wonderful place to go in and make your own things and just be around creativity Well Lisa Hansen Toby Flood thanks so much for coming on Fresh Air thank you for having us thank you very much for having us. Fresh air producer Sam Briger spoke with Lisa Hanson an executive producer of the Netflix series The Dark Crystal and Toby Froude the show's design supervisor. If you'd like to catch up on fresh air interviews you missed like this week's interviews with actor Robert Pattinson who's best known for his role as a teen vampire in the Twilight films are with Mariel Heller director of the new film a beautiful day in the neighborhood starring Tom Hanks as Fred Rogers check out our podcast you'll find lots of fresh air interviews our interviews and reviews are produced in edited by Amy South Phyllis Myers Sam Briger Lauren Krenzel criticism on the recent Madden moves 87 Kelly and Joel will from I'm Terry Gross. Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from Sierra Nevada Brewing Company family owned operated and argued over since 1900 proud supporter of independent thought whether that's on line over the air or in a bottle more at Sierra Nevada dot com and from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. J p r recognizes the nonprofit community support of clay folk clay folk presents the 44th annual pottery show in sale on Friday November 22nd from 49 continuing through Saturday 10 to 7 and Sunday 10 to 4 at the toys r us building on Bentyl road in Medford this is a new location and is made possible by the new owners of market of choice over 70 clay artists will participate with work ranging from dinnerware and functional pottery to ceramic jewelry and sculpture tile work and fountains the kids play area is open on Saturday and Sunday the Friday night opening features live music details about the 44th annual pottery show in sale at Clay folk dot org This is the music information services 2nd week in University's Jefferson Public Radio call 30 a m k s take a tally at 9 30 am the a.g.i. Grants Pass also heard in the raw galley of one of 2.3 half hour news of the region the nation and the world. From Jefferson Public Radio at Southern Oregon University this is the Jefferson exchange I'm Jeffrey Riley off the top co-op shopping in the age of grocery Giants maybe grocery co-ops don't have the economies of scale but they do have devoted members you'll hear from John Steinman who wrote a big book on co-ops and is visiting some in our region down the hour getting drunk on our history or at least exploring the history of getting drunk archaeology segment Underground History is back you'll hear from the ph d. Student in Kentucky who is the leader in Bourbon archaeology after 9 of musical journey with the group that simply can't squeeze into our studio the timberline express big band combine some of the best musicians on the road Valley for a very big sound you'll hear from Leader trumpet player and singer of all that and your phone calls and e-mails ahead on the Jefferson exchange 1st the news of the hour. B.b.c. News with Comrie the chair of the impeachment inquiry into Donald Trump the Democrat Adam Schiff has said the president's conduct was far more serious than anything done by President Nixon during the Watergate scandal Mr Schiff was summing up proceedings at the end of a week of public hearings this president believes he is up above the law beyond accountability and in my view there is nothing more dangerous than an ethical president who believes there are above all law and I would just say to people watching here at home and around the world. We are better than that lawmakers had from 12 witnesses they were told by senior u.s. Diplomats and weapons day that Mr Trump directed efforts to press Ukraine to launch an investigation into his presidential rival Joe Biden President Trump insists he did nothing wrong the White House says he would welcome a food trial in the Senate on whether to remove him from office Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said he will continue to lead the country in spite of his indictment on corruption charges he is not legally obliged to stand down he responded angrily to the indictment in a televised speech describing it as tantamount to a coup earlier Israel's attorney general Mandalit who was appointed by Mr Netanyahu confirmed that the prime minister would be charged with bribery breach of trust and fraud but does not. But with a heavy heart I decided to invite him a very don't know with a heavy heart but also wholeheartedly out of a deep sense of duty to the rule of law and the public and cost.