Office of Management and Budget pulled the funds because of his concerns about corruption in Ukraine Gruber says embassy officials there asked about security assistance July 25th the same day President Trump spoke to Ukraine's leader suggesting new craniums knew about the situation far earlier than previously thought but eventually candidates are in Atlanta for the 5th Democratic debate which gets under way at this hour N.P.R.'s Scott d'être reports a lot has changed since the candidates last gathered last month Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren was the surging candidate this time in South Bend Indiana Mayor Pete blue Gedge but he judges surging in the polls in Iowa and doing well in New Hampshire though he doesn't have anywhere near as much support in the 2 other early states South Carolina and Nevada Warren has spent much of the past month on the defensive about her health care plan and all the candidates have had to work hard to break through a new cycle so focused on impeachment 10 candidates will be on the stage tonight former Housing and Urban Development secretary who Leon Castro will not be there though he didn't make the Democratic National Committee's cut for qualifying for the debate Scott Tetro n.p.r. 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The Civic Gas and Electric today began another bitch periodic shutdowns in California and the preventing its power lines from sparking wildfires that shut off in the San Francisco Bay area and parts of northern California come at a time there are concerns warm windy weather could spark more fires people in the Wine Country counties of Napa and Sonoma lost their power this morning with power cuts to some other areas as well this awful last through Thursday back into affect more than 120000 people that number was lowered somewhat due to rain and higher humidity in some areas the Labor Department says working women on average may just 81 percent of what working men made last year N.P.R.'s Scott Horsley reports gender pay gap is remain stubbornly consistent for the past decade and a half working women in America earn an average of $789.00 a week last year that's about $184.00 a week less than the average working man the Labor Department says the gender pay gap has narrowed since 1979 when the government began tracking the most the progress came in the eighty's and ninety's the gaps remain fairly consistent since 2004 economists say occupational differences account for some of the gap a lot of women work in lower paying fields such as health care and education women are also more likely to take time off with children but even controlling for occupation and experience much of the gender pay gap reflects unequal pay for equal work Scott Horsley n.p.r. 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You are Boston and I make a trucker Bartie and this is on point and I'd say this is one of those hours that could change the way you look at the world or at least how much of the world can be translated and understood through the smallest things take for example the snail those cool little creatures with the house on their backs they are garden pests to some but in Hawaii snails are a powerful indicator species telling us about the health of the environment there were once more than $750.00 different snails species on the island we've lost half of them already another $100.00 species could be gone soon unless something is done so we're going to talk with the researcher who is trying to save them this hour on point human driven extinction and saving Hawaii's snails Well joining us today from Honolulu is David Cisco He's a wildlife biologist and the snail extinction coordinator at Hawaii's Department of Land and Natural Resources his work was recently featured in and Atlantic article titled The last of its kind we have a link to that article at on point Radio dot org David Sisko welcome to on point. Happy to be here Aloha to you as a fellow I was wondering if we could start with the story of a little snail named George who was George. So George was the last known actor to know a Peck's Falls and just to give you some historical context about this species this was the 1st the 1st now species of all of the 750 that were described officially by Western science so the 1st specimen was from a leg given to Captain George Dixon in the late seventy's hundreds and so was the 1st male species to be described and on January 1st George passed away as the last known individual of his species and he was 14 years away Ok hang on hang on this already so much there so David So 1st of all. George was 14 is that George was 14 yeah that a common lifespan for this species of snail Yeah that's correct we have a whole group of relatively large trees snails in the Hawaiian Islands and they live between 10 and 20 years depending on the species and they take about 5 years to reach maturity and they give birth to $1.00 to $5.00 babies a year so extremely low reproductive rate really long lifespan they're almost almost like a mammal so to speak Wow Ok and I want to be sure I'm saying this right because the genus and species name a cat Nella a pig's full. Of wrong Achatz I know apex full of Africa to Nella apex full of Ok Do they have a common name. In a way they have quite a lot of names so in general tree snail the word for trees now would be called Holy cow Hooley Ok now but so George was living in the lab it was living with you George Yeah George was living in our captive breeding facility that we have set up were currently rearing about 40 species that are either extinct in the wild or very close to being extinct and so just to set it up and go back a little bit. George's parents were found over 20 years ago now prior to that the species was thought to be extinct no one seen it in in decades. And and it just so happens that a small group of these snails were found in a couple of trees along a hiking trail and in a latch last ditch emergency effort these these animals were collected and brought to University of Hawaii over 20 years ago and they persisted in captivity they had they had births including George and then the laboratory which was rearing about 10 species at the time had some significant die offs and some of the populations likely due to a. Pathogen that was introduced and all of the ACA to no effect pull for the population died unfortunately except one lone snail which was George and he was a subadult at the time so he was not reproductive So he he was never able to mate with another one of his species and and people have been looking for the past for the past 20 years to try and find more of these animals in the wild and have not come up with any what importance did George take on for you and your fellow researchers George you know if it's a good point he was he was locally famous so to speak he was featured in a lot of local magazine articles and probably thousands of school children over the years had have visited him and knew of his existence and so he's a little bit of a local celebrity I think people are always trying to wrap their mind around the last individual of a species and it's an oddity and so he was he was pretty popular and so he really was a great example of what we don't want to happen to the rest of our fallen snow fond of that still persisting and there's quite a lot left to save but they're in dire straits and so this is George's passing as a really good lesson of what what we don't want to happen well we'll talk about that lesson. In more depth throughout the hour but I want to stay with George here because it's. It's such a heartbreaking story 1st of all describe to us what his species what are those little snail look like how big are they what color are they yes so were they my gosh I have to say were now were they well we still have quite a few left so so as I mentioned the Hawaiian Islands had over 750 species of snail and 13 different families and so we have snails of all and most of the species 99 percent only exist in Hawaii nowhere else in the world. Some of them are less than 2 millimeters in size in their adult form really small all the way up to 2 quite large and George is a Georgia species is a member of the ACA to knowledge Enos which is a trees now and they're relatively large they're about an inch their shells about an inch so so large compared to the 2 millimeter species. Many of the species are very colorful they're they come in all different colors and patterns and and Stripes and their shells conical and George George's species apex Volvo is named for the the apex of their shell which is which is typically yellow in the species or was typically yellow in this species and so they're they're quite beautiful George was was not the most beautiful specimen he was he was pretty pretty Grizzle that the end is his shell was was pretty plain but the species in general is really variable and very colorful and all was commonly used in lay. To make them a clay because the species was really beautiful and because they existed in lower elevation habitats that were relatively easy for people to collect and at one time prolifically to yeah Yes Ok I have to ask you one thing one of the things about when a species goes extinct and you talked about this a minute or 2 ago David is that. They can go extinct quietly. Unnoticed until we don't see them anymore right until the receipt numbers go down but then we do surveys in the wild and we might find one or 2 survivors or none but it can happen beneath our notice with the case of George and his species that is the opposite it was the absolute opposite we you knew you and your fellow researchers knew why in the new every day that he was the last of his kind I'm just wondering on a day to day basis as you call it looked at him in his little habitat. In the trailer where where he was kept Did the did the sort of moral and emotional weight of that you used when you like literally were setting eyes every day on on a creature that is the last of its kind How did that sit on you. It's a pretty heavy weight I would say I mean being the last known individual we already knew this species was toast. But but what's so interesting about a long lived species like this is you can you like you said you can have them in captivity and we know when they go extinct. It's it's a weird feeling to have it's a it's a great responsibility to care for that animal we were all paranoid to handle him. And and we knew he was reaching the end of his life span 14 is is pretty old for us now in captivity and. We actually had him on on watch so he was he was checked every day except for weekends to make sure he was he was Ok and the reason we were doing that is because after an animal dies there's there's a chance that we could still harvest living cells and so we were we were hoping to harvest we've already previously harvested some some living tissue from a biopsy from him but we were hoping to harvest more. But unfortunately he he kicked off on a holiday when no one was in the laboratory on New Year's Eve on on New Year's Eve Our New Year's Day were not entirely sure when he went but yeah. So. You have some of his d.n.a. Though. Yes We actually have living cells from George that are in the San Diego Zoo's frozen zoo. Just in case someday the technology exists to clone these animals it doesn't currently exist for snails but yeah but it might and may have it may likely be or have been our last opportunity to collect a living tissue from this species and how did you find that George had died. I received a text message from our laboratory manager pretty early in the morning on January 2nd and I already knew knew probably something bad had happened because I typically don't don't hear from her that early in the morning so I really kind of had a pit in my stomach. But I wasn't really expecting that but. This is a terrible. It's sad it's sad but you know what there's there's still a lot of snails that are left and that are closely related to George and other families and he's he's a great example of where we really really don't want to get to and what we're trying to avoid with all these other species that are left so it's a. I it's sad that he went but he kicked off in a pretty dramatic fashion on the 1st day of the nuclear. It received a tremendous amount of attention which shocked us all I think but. I'm if anything can if anything good can come from it in extinction it's this increased awareness of what's happening in our world and what's happening to the fauna and flora in Hawaii. I think it's it's it's shed a national and international light on on this issue but we're going to talk more about your efforts to save the snails in Hawaii so David Cisco stand by here I just want to read a quick comment we got on our website from Josh who says I've obviously never met that little mollusc George but his story is kind of tugging at my heartstrings a bit here not that he was aware of it at all who knows maybe he was more than we'll ever truly know but those researchers tending to him for nearly a decade and a half surely did I'm struggling to fathom that last the last of a species more precious than any element or mineral now utterly absent I wonder how many seemingly irrelevant tiny treasures soon to be gone forever we just take for granted every day we'll be right back this is on point. Support for j.p. 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This is on point a magnet We're talking this hour with David Cisco he is the snail extinction prevention program coordinator at Whitey's department of land and natural resources He's a wildlife biologist who is trying to stop the disappearance the extinction of Hawaii's native snail species he was featured in Atlantic article a little earlier this year and we have a link to that article at on point Radio dot org And David joins us today from Honolulu now David even though I still feel honestly rather emotional about the courage because we're talking about the in exile loss. The ineffable loss of a series of a whole species and he was the last of his kind but I want you to sort of also help us understand the importance of snails in in Hawaii's ecosystems here because at one time there were 756 b. She's of snail on the islands What role do snails play in the in the environment of Hawaii. That's right over 750 species and just to give you some scale that's comparable to the mollusc diversity of all of North America and the Hawaiian islands are about 1730 landmass So having that much diversity packed into such a small land area is pretty spectacular. There it's hard to describe to people just how abundant snails were they they occurred in almost every habitat type in the islands from coastal strand all the way up to some of our highest mountains. The historical accounts are mind blowing I mean they're described as Christmas ornaments on the trees there people collected them for their beautiful shells and bucket loads and saddlebag loads people describe them as grapes grapes on a vine. They like all invertebrates play a pretty important role in our native forest ecosystem so our tree snails which include not just our large ones but many of the teeny tiny ones they glean algae in fungus that grow on leaf surfaces so they're they're actively grazing this this almost invisible biofilm that can include pathogenic species of fungus and bacteria that are bad for Plant Health and so they're actually cleaning the leaves on these . In our in our forest ecosystems and they're also turning over nutrients so there are all of their feces are going right back into the forest as as nitrogen and important plant nutrients and many many of our ground species are actually decomposing leaf litter and putting that nutrients back into the forest and so you could you could say that that. Snails are important for our water capture because they're keeping our They're helping keep our forests healthy and so our native forests are really important here in Hawaii for for capturing water and putting it into the ground for us to to later retrieve and drink yet another one of those tiny species that we don't usually give any thought to that's doing all this critical work for the overall invisible work for the overall health of our ecosystem I mean they have that's one of the less is I keep coming away with every time we have conversations like this when did you 1st become interested in Hawaii these snails. I I came out here as an undergraduate student and worked with a professor at the University of Hawaii and participated in some snow research that that he was doing this Dr Michael Hadfield at the University of Hawaii and I later . Begged him to take me as a student one of his last graduate students and I have been studying snails ever since I moved moved out here for graduate school and I just never left and so I was I was studying population genetics of these endangered species and my role has evolved into into helping coordinate the recovery efforts so when did you realize that that would have to become your role that rather than just studying the science of these snails that it was basically saving them from extinction Yeah you know when you're when you spend a good chunk of your life studying these animals they it really impacts you and to to see them disappearing at such a fast rate it's it's it's mind blowing it's astonishing shocking but can you tell us when I mean like the it sounds like you're saying there was visual evidence every day that they were disappearing at a fast rate is that right oh yeah I mean our our team at this point you know we've . In many remote areas were there are still snail populations persisting we were trying to actively manage them and our partners were trying to actively manage them with predator control. I should say maybe maybe just to frame this argument are this this story that the reason snails are declining in Hawaii is for a variety of reasons historically they were over collected for their beautiful shells there's been some habitat alteration in lower elevations that's been pretty dramatic in the Hawaiian Islands but the worst and most insidious threat comes from introduced species that directly deprecate these animals that are that are involved in eating them and that includes rats. Why you never had any species of rats that were native Jackson's chameleons which were brought here through the pet trade and accidentally released and now occur on all mean Hawaiian Islands but but the worst predator is this introduce Now that was brought here from Florida and it was brought here on purpose by the territorial Department of Agriculture as a bio control to control this giant African snail that was that was brought here as a food source and later turned into a devastating crop asked Ok so this is really important because you're talking about multiple introduction right right so I was waves of Enter Dr So the so there was a snail that was introduced to Hawaii as a as a food stores you know in the 1930 s. The giant African snow was spread around the Pacific there really large snails there they're almost freakishly large. And they were they were brought to the islands as a potential as a cargo food source then people move them around even as lawn ornaments because they were interesting and. They ended up across the Pacific reaching plague proportions and being pretty devastating to agriculture and devastating to people's own gardens and yards and so there was there was a large effort that went into trying to control them and one of those efforts was to bring in this this introduce now from Florida that actually only eats other snails and it's called the it's the species as you go and you know Rosie. Or the Roman lino and Rosie will say oh yeah that's right Rosie Wolf's now and this thing is terrible and it's now made its way into all of our native forests areas almost all of them and it's just erasing our native snowfall I'm seeing here in the Atlantic article they describe the rosy Wolf snail as a snail that tracks all their snails by following their slime trails so this is actually very like a horror film and then and then you yanks them from their shells with the separated tongue and swallows them you know. Or swallow them whole depending on the size of this now and it's doing this to it's doing this indiscriminately to almost any other snail that it encounters Yep Yeah that's that's correct and they can reproduce pretty rapidly and they reach maturity in relatively rapidly compared to our native snails and so they they can exterminate whole forests of native snails and in a time frame that's that's hard to imagine you know and we're going back to populations that we've that have been managed for years for and I've known been known about for years and then in a matter of months they are you know we're we're evacuating the last individuals that we can find the bodies months a matter of months Yep. Ok it's it's pretty shocking Yeah so there's Look I'm going to ask this question right now because you haven't said it yet but any time we talk about sort of rapid large scale like macro scale changes in the environment we have to ask about climate but you're talking about predation being the meat of the major problem here is clear this climate have any effect on Hawaii's made of steel populations Yeah that's that's a really good point climate change is this looming monster and it we were already feeling the impacts on the islands pretty dramatically I mean this this year alone we I think we had over 50 straight days of record temperatures this summer and so we we believe is happening is is that you going to you know like it warm a little warmer and these increased temperatures that we're having for periods in the summer are allowing these these snails to get higher and higher and perhaps perhaps reproduce more effectively in some of our upper elevation. Refused to have a tat for these for our native snails that have typically perhaps kept the predators that we suspect that might be temperature thing that's that's driving them up the mountain and so also climate changes is altering our weather patterns and so the forecast for even for the next 60 years is for many areas in the islands to not be habitable 1st now is anymore just because of rainfall differences. So it sounds like cohosh time it changes charging this problem the problem was introduced by humankind and now other human activity visa v climate change is is supercharging a 3rd there are synergistic Ok yeah so. What let's zoom out here where we're going talk about solutions David with the I promise but but I want to zoom out here to give people again a sense of context because I'm still very much taken by the fact that you said that just within the snail population the snail biodiversity in Hawaii that there are more smale snail species on the islands of Hawaii that all the rest of North America the flipside of that then is that are we seeing accelerated rates of extinctions of species on Hawaii is Hawaii kind of a ground 0 for for an extinction crisis as well. Our or our native native flora and fauna are in trouble there's many species that will you know over the next decade will completely be erased and this this goes for our Hawaiian birds which are extremely susceptible to avian malaria and climate change is driving mosquitoes that carry this disease higher up the mountain and into the some of the Lost populations. We are we have many native plants that are that are endangered from introduced predators and climate change snails so we're we're we're known as the arguably the extinction capital of the world and and it's pretty dramatic in and you know honestly we're we're the last generation the last group of people right now that potentially can have any sort of say on on what happens and what we do in the next decade is going to determine the fate for potentially hundreds of plant and animal species in the islands and that I think that goes across the world really for different endangered ecosystems Ok David Cisco in Honolulu Hawaii Stand by for just a moment because I'd like to introduce into the conversation Elizabeth Kolbert She joins us from Williamstown Massachusetts she is a staff writer at The New Yorker author of The 6th Extinction An Unnatural History it won the Pulitzer Prize for nonfiction in 2015 She's also author of several other books including Field Notes from a catastrophe man nature and climate change Elizabeth Kolbert welcome to on point thanks for having me I know you've hung out in Hawaii a lot in doing your research for you for your book specifically for The 6th Extinction What do you hear in David Cisco's stories about what's happening to the snails in Hawaii well that you know. As you were sort of implying or just a very dramatic and. Something that's happening in real time you know they want to happen in real time in a very dramatic vivid example of a phenomenon that's occurring all over the world particularly on islands but also increasingly on continents we're seeing very accelerated extinction rates so high that many scientists I would say most. At this point would say we're on the verge of a mass extinction event the 6th extinction as it's being exact. And is is that is there incontrovertibly evidence that this is human caused or I claim Ed I think there's some pushback against that these is well if there is it's pretty lame because yes there is incontrovertibly evidence that it is human caused and wherever there are many different reasons why species. Extinction rates are so high right now you know David was pointing to introduce species as very important factor on why and actually on many many islands most islands. Wherever you look if it's habitat destruction if it's pollution if it's climate change you know who is behind all of that we are we are. One species one species as a group of researchers are quoted in the book points out and that's humanity so in your research on this just to help us understand how fast is this current rate of extinction in comparison to other mass extinction events because I mean a supposed when we think about the the asteroid that hit Earth that helped. The dinosaurs etc offstage I mean are we seeing comparable rates like that well I mean the honest answer is. It's very hard to compare apples and apples the extinction event that did in the dinosaurs as you say was precipitated by asteroid impact 66000000 years ago you know our access to that how long it took that extinction event to play out is very limited in the fossil record it comes across more or less is instantaneous now people have tried once again they've tried to sort of compare apples and apples we don't have the fossil record of today at so they've tried to look at sort of other proxies like how fast species are moving through different categories of endangerment once again we have not even assessed most of the species on Earth we don't even know how many species there are in earth but when you try to do it as carefully as possible with the information that we have you do arrive at extinction rates if they continue as today that could get to sort of you know end Cretaceous dinosaur killing asteroid like impacts within several 100 years and then geological terms that is virtually instantaneous so we are seeing potentially extinction rates comparable to the so-called Big 5 mass extinctions of the past have till you hear yes Elizabeth I'm always thought the your your reporting it's like the most depressing beat I swear but but let me ask you though. The One can also look at this as Ok if it's human cause it can be human fixed but certain systems you know when forces multiply in those systems they do tip over into a point of no return what our interests around the world telling you are we are we at the point of no return in terms of this accelerating rate of of species extinction. Well I think. The past has been has been written those pieces that were introduced for example on islands and have taken over extremely difficult but potentially not impossible to get rid of there are in many successful Island eradication people are working very hard so if you if you go issue by issue you can find you know a lot of hopeful possibilities let me put it that way but when you look at the entire picture when you see the actual trend lines in terms of plan Clarence you know what we're seeing in the Amazon in terms of you know cutting down the. Rain Forest in mega diverse areas of the world when you look at what are is actually happening to missions it's it's a pretty pretty daunting picture Well Elizabeth Kolbert stuff writer at The New Yorker and author of The 6th Extinction An Unnatural History it won the Pulitzer Prize for nonfiction in 2015 Elizabeth thank you so much for giving us the big picture alarm on this thank you so much for joining us thanks for having me Will David Cisco in Honolulu Hawaii Stand by for just a moment because when we come back we're going to talk about your efforts to save Hawaii's nails will be back this is on point. Just because you're on the road we're live outside the g.p. Our broadcast area doesn't mean you have to give up listening to Jefferson Public Radio you can always stream it from any browser it i.g.p. Org but you can also download the free j.p. App with all 3 j.p. Our services are available to stream on your phone or compatible device that means you can listen to g.p.o. 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This is on point a magnet Chakrabarti We're talking this hour about saving Hawaii's snails and why it preserving the last remaining mollusks on the Hawaiian Islands tells us a lot about what we're going to need to do to prevent mass extinctions around the world and I'm joined today by David Cisco he is snail extinction prevention program coordinator at home-I East department of land and natural resources He's a wildlife biologist who's trying to stop the disappearance of Hawaii's native snail species he was featured in Atlantic article headlined the last of its kind we have a link to that at on point Radio dot award Ok David So let's get down to preservation conservation efforts because I want to end on a note about what we can do 1st of all tell us you and your team you have collected the last remaining survivors of several different Hawaiian snail species is that right. Yeah that's correct so 1st 1st I'd just like to say that I'm I'm a I'm a pretty small piece in this multi-decadal an effort to conserve these animals we have we work where a partnership program and we work with partners at the u.s. Fish and Wildlife Service the university the Bishop Museum Honolulu zoo the Army so we it's quite a lot of big large effort that's going into saving these animals and it's a really good example of the partnership approach that you have to take when you're dealing with a species across a landscape like this but but yeah what you said is correct where we've we've turned to just evacuating the last known individuals from from at this point close to 40 species and we were predicting that in the next the next decade where we're facing you know hundreds the loss of 100 species or so and that will continue into the following decades as if this problem isn't addressed so let's do some math here because he said originally there were more than 750 species of Hawaiian snails we've already lost half of them so that's 375 right you know in that math right and then us Lee and then and then we could lose in the coming decade or decades another 100 more so down to 275 I mean that's that's these are very fall these are really strong dropoff rates Yeah and it's happening in in people's lifetimes it's happening right in front of our eyes and that's what's so shocking about it I think and so the ones that you're that you're able to years sort of evacuating as you keep saying or that your team is evacuating you have them in little habitats in some trailers is that right yeah so we have a 44 foot long trailer and we keep the snails in environmental chambers and so these look like big refrigerators and they control temperature humidity we make it rain on them and controls day and night and so we make the conditions in these upper elevation habitats where the snow therefrom. And in the trailers are designed to keep out people resist fire perhaps the worst case are there are there alarm then we have backup generators and temperature alarms and humidity alarms on the chambers that call and text all of our staff if there's any any fluctuation that's abnormal. If there is a hurricane we have to evacuate the lab unfortunately and that's that's happened one time luckily the hurricane didn't didn't hit a wall who right but it was forecast too and so we decided to to evacuate the lab and had to bring all of the snails to the to our office building our administrative building which is a big concrete building in downtown Honolulu. But of course as you said earlier what led to George being the last of his kind was it's hard to keep out pathogens. Yeah potentially there's there's probably you know there's not a lot of research on on snail pathogens but most most island fauna are pretty susceptible to introduce pathogens from mainland areas just because they have no evolutionary experience with pathogens from from other areas Yeah and that's the story of island fauna I mean the part exactly vulnerable what makes them so such a wonderful story of the power of evolution also makes a very very vulnerable but so you with these with these survivors going to call them survivors of the last of their kind that you have in the trailers. Yeah Ok so I can't it's Ok to call them survivors that's what they are you have a breeding program yes we have a captive rearing facility and our goal I should say is not to have the world's largest snails you but we're trying to get these animals back out onto the landscape as fast as we can and we're doing that by by using a network of predator proof and sing and so we've we have a network of partners that are that are involved in developing this technology these barriers that keep out predators and the one who Army natural resources program has been instrumental in developing this technology and it's their design is what we use today across the islands and and so these these fences are are pretty robust they're solid wall they have smooth sides we at this point are using a plastic material that's a reservoir liner and so rats have a difficult time crawling up it they're kept with a big hood that keeps them even if they get to the top they can't make it around the hood and then on the bottom we have a gauntlet for Uganda to have to cross before they could even even think about getting in and that includes a skirt that that skirts the entire fence that said a 15 degree angle on the snails have a difficult time crossing that if they do there's a little shelf that sticks out and that also skirts the entire fence and it's has pokey. Or wire mesh that's really difficult for the you going to get across but if they do cross that we electrocute them and that's pretty effective at keeping them out and so inside these these these islands so to speak within an island are we maintain them predator free and this Nels do really well inside without the predators you know this is reminding me of on the other side of the Pacific from you in New Zealand north to save the kakapo right the those ground nesting. Native New Zealand parrot or 3rd yeah they had to like they basically because of the I believe it was rats and other predators that were visiting the kakapo they put all the remaining survivors on one little island right and that's it's almost impossible to get on you know I'd love to go there unless you're a researcher but but. Yes those conservation efforts help keep these species alive and surviving but you know a cock a hoop kakapo bubble or are you going to you know bubble isn't really what we want we want these animals thriving once again completely across Hawaii. Is that possible. Yeah that's a difficult question. At this point are you exactly you're spot on having these animals in captivity and having them in the small Refugio it's it's stopgap at best . But at this point the these animals are decreasing so fast these are our kind of our only options at this moment and we see our role in the next next decade is just to keep these animals on earth so that when further developments in biotechnology that might allow us to knock out some of these endangered species or are developments in predator control might allow us to reintroduce these back back on to the larger landscape right where you so you mentioned predator predator control is going to ask you because that must be a front line solution here Are there current efforts in Hawaii to reduce those that Rosie Wolf's mail. We've tried multiple approaches and over the decades researchers that you each have tried poisoning everything and their biology doesn't lend them to being good candidates for controlling with any kind of poison that we know of at this point they follow slime trails and so just to to have any kind of trapping system or poison system doesn't really work because they it's unlikely they'll encounter at these animals are kind of randomly cruising through the habitat and then when they encounter a slime trail there they're making a bee line for the snail that made it and eating it and so to to lure them to some some kind of trap or or or something like that would be really difficult and we just haven't haven't come across a method that works I was about so so sorry to interrupt I was about to ask what do we know about what keeps their populations in check in their native environment but of course that leads us to thinking. I'm not suggesting we introduce another species here to keep the wolf snail in check but I mean is that has to have people even considered that. I mean ideas have always been thrown around in in their native range which is the southern United States Florida Texas you know there's they have a 1000000 predators potentially reptilian predators bird predators animals that don't exist here in Hawaii and I don't think that would be possible to introduce a species that would selectively eat them and not our other snails you know you don't mean the one of the recurrent refrains from this conversation in this lesson about about George and his species is that we got here because we kept introducing new things to Hawaii so. And the unintended consequences of that I mean that is the story of how human beings have should have have changed and shaped the environment for millennia right like we think we're doing something good we introduce a new species and and yet we have all these unintended consequences I just wonder there's no stopping that is there. Yeah that's that's hard to say I will say that you going to you know was introduced in the 1950 s. When bio control technology wasn't our Even research on this what didn't didn't really even exist it was if you ate it let's try it and throw you know throw him out there and they stuck and so I think bio control is approached much differently at this point. But not in all instances but but yes different different now more a more scientific approach that tries to assess all potential non-target impacts. So tell us a again more about getting back to us idea real that's a little bit there but but I want to get back to more about the efforts that are going on in Hawaii for preserving the snail population so you have this breeding program you have these little refuges for them I mean do you have success stories to share with us we do have Yeah we do have quite a few success stories in general the predator proof in seeing is working and the snail populations inside these these protected habitats are are thriving and are and are expanding and so yeah I guess you could call them little lifeboats out in the environment and where we're actively reintroducing. About 5 species right now back onto a wahoo into into these protected areas and so that's my favorite thing in the world is to put these animals back out on the landscape from the lab. As you said having them in the lab is risky. Having all of our eggs in one basket it's it's honestly terrifying for me to have to have 40 species that are extinct or near near extinct all in one spot it's it's not a good strategy and so we're trying to get them back out on the landscape in multiple locations as soon as we can to spread that risk of extinction around. We'll just talk for a 2nd about this that would you release this is some of the snails back into the into the wild you play Born Free. I do I. It's always a really happy time I mean we're seeing on a daily basis pretty disturbing things these animals disappearing but releasing these animals back out into the wild is a pretty happy time and so I want one movie that I really liked when I was little was born free it's about a ally and that's reared by by this family in Africa and they set it free of all bombs and so I put the theme song is called Born Free I think it's for by Frank Sinatra or. And or Monroe and. And yes so I Blair in the forest as we as we slide these little snails on on to leaves it's a happy scene I love that you know I don't know I don't I'm not I didn't bring that up as best you know I brought that up to celebrate celebrate because I I can see it in my mind's eye and I love it and in fact you know so this gets us to one of the I think the most important and important aspect about the work and your team and all the people in Hawaii who are working on this. That you know the public's attention is drawn to extinction crises when we have the so-called charismatic species right that are facing a dire future. You know you mentioned Lions various Vina big cats when we talk about for example the dwindling dwindling number of Bengal tigers in the wild. And the people care right right. It's a humbler creature it's not so charismatic you know in invertebrates it's difficult to get people behind invertebrate Khan conservation most people interactions with invertebrates So when I say invertebrates I mean insects snails crustaceans things without a backbone for your listeners and most people's interactions with those are pretty negative you're you know think of mosquitoes or bed bugs or garden pests and so but the reality is that invertebrates are are the majority of biodiversity in the world and they're the main drivers of a lot of ecosystem function that's really important for for our survival and so they have a bad rap but there are extremely important you know I think people are noticing now too because it wasn't that long ago we did a conversation about just insects more broadly and the drop off in 6 species and I remember people calling in saying they were you know growing up and they drive in their towns or. Through rural areas that they would have bugs splatter all over their Winfield's and now they don't anymore because the because the insects are going away I mean that's essentially what you're seeing a corollary to that you're seeing in Hawaii with with the snail So do you think that like. There's there's increasing awareness there must be in Hawaii right now you're practically of a local celebrity there well the snails definitely are there. It might be confusing for people on the mainland but but in areas that have really vibrant indigenous cultures like like like Hawaii they have really deep connections to these animals that co-existed with them for thousands of years and in Hawaii and tradition snails are so seated with voice they're they're known as that people Canio is a is a word 1st nail and it literally means singing shell and they're also known as a kind of the voice on the mountain Carney Elmore a the voice of the night and one of my colleagues Amy saw 2 at the University of Hawaii did this really fantastic research project where she looked back through a hole in literature and and interviewed cultural practitioners to try and delve deeper into the importance of snails and it turns out that they're there arguably one of the most revered invertebrate groups in the world here in Hawaii and that is because Polynesian cultures pass on their their history and genealogy through voice they didn't have historically a written language and so any animal that was associated with voice has significance and so they're really important locally and those traditions continue today one of the 1st who was that that is taught to 2 kids is is about snails and so it's really beautiful and and those those traditions are continued today. Well David Cisco is the snail extinction prevention program coordinator. At why he's department of land and natural resources He's a wildlife biologist who's one among many that are trying to stop the disappearance of Hawaii's native snail species he was featured in an Atlantic article titled The last of its kind we have a link to that on point Radio dot org David it's been a great pleasure talking with you thank you so much and thank you for all the work that you're doing there in Hawaii thank you Aloha a magnet this is on point. On point is a production of w b u r Boston and n p r. Support for on point comes from fracture fracture Prince your digital photos are art directly on glass from personal photo gifts to large wall decor fracture prints come in a variety of sizes and ship ready to mount learn more at fracture Me dot com slash on point and Reddit and w.b. 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Why in Philadelphia I'm Terry Gross with fresh air today we talk with Mario Heller director of the new film a beautiful day in the neighborhood starring Tom Hanks as Fred Rogers and Matthew Reese as a cynical journalist assigned to profile him in preparation for the film Heller watched a lot of Mr Rogers I had this really painful experience of watching the episode about death with my free year old at the time she's trying to make changes in the film industry to make it easier for women who are parents and for all parents to work without sacrificing their family life was something that I started talking about really early because I said you know I don't think Fred Rogers would want us to make a movie about him where we all abandon our kids in order to make Yeah. So how do we do this Heller also directed can you ever forgive me. First news from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm Jack Speer the 10 Democratic presidential hopefuls on the stage in Atlanta tonight wasted little time in tackling the topic of the day the impeachment inquiry in Washington former Vice President Joe Biden has been drawn in because of allegations President Trump sought to tie aid Ukraine to an investigation of Biden his family said he chose Trump doesn't want him to be the nominee N.P.R.'s Ozma Khalid said sounded a little bit worn had a different response the 1st questions of the night focused on the impeachment inquiry which was obviously no huge surprise given the news out of Washington d.c. Messages that Senator Elizabeth Warren was asked how she intends to convince her Republican colleagues in the Senate to vote for impeachment and she bid me to a different topic she highlighted the fact that Gordon silentlambs is in Ambassador because of a check that he cut to Donald Trump and emphasized that if she were to be elected president anybody who wants to give her money shouldn't ask to be an ambassador N.P.R.'s Ozma college it's the 5th faceoff between the. Anderson the Democratic nomination ambassador Gordon Simon wrapped up over 6 hours of testimony before the House impeachment probe today N.P.R.'s Brian Naylor reports silent testified there was quid pro quo for arranging a White House visit for Ukraine's President Assad Lindh said he and other officials who worked with trans personal attorney routed.