All that and more coming out of. This is Democracy Now Democracy Now dot org The War and Peace Report I mean a good thing in this special broadcast we begin the show with the engine a scholar and activist Nick Estes He's co-founder of the indigenous resistance group the Red Nation and a citizen of the Lower Brule Sioux tribe I talked to him earlier this year about his book our history is the future the book tells the history of indigenous resistance over 2 centuries offering a road map for collective liberation and a guide to fighting life threatening climate change as the center says history in the historic fight against the Dakota access pipeline at Standing Rock I asked him to talk about the 2 Thanksgivings stories he writes about at the beginning of his book so the 1st things giving story is begins with the peak what massacre by members of the Massachusetts Bay Colony which really marks sort of in my opinion marks sort of the mythology of the United States as a settler colonial country founded. On sort of genocide to create ironically peace. And then I begin with another story of a prayer March that we led in the Bismarck mall in Bismarck North Dakota. To kind of bring attention to the Standing Rock struggle during a Black Friday shopping event which was met by police armed with an ar 15 who then began punching and kicking water protectors who are holding a prayer in the Bismarck mall and I thought it was a really kind of jarring sort of contrast between you know the past and the president to say that while there are sort of differences. In the massacre of peak Watson and Massachusetts to the contemporary certify against an oil pipeline none the less you know Bismarck North Dakota is a 90 percent white community that originally the Dakota access pipeline was supposed to go up river from but then was rerouted down river to disproportionately affect the Standing Rock Sioux tribe in this proportion it is the language that the Army Corps of Engineers use as if there's ever a proportionate risk to environmental. Issues and water contamination so at this particular moment there weren't any actions that were happening in the camps and it was largely at a standstill and I think at that Thanksgiving weekend there was an unthinking giving feast that was held in the in the camps and it was actually the highest point of the camps themselves in the sense that they were the most sort of water protectors had showed up so I thought it was a good kind of contrast to show that this history you know is a continuing history of of genocide of settler colonialism and basically the founding myth of this country and looked last words are where challenge not just to imagine but to demand the emancipation of Earth from capital for the earth to live Capitalism must die explain. So that line is part of you know this longer section on liberation and I think when we think about climate change oftentimes the question of climate change really centers on market driven solutions such as you know the green capitalism and how do we create markets that sort of incentivize transition to sustainable economies for a and I think really what we're kind of like beating around the bush is that it's the system of capitalism that led us into this economic crisis to begin with it's the the sort of designation of certain populations in certain territories as disposable that has led us into our current epoch of global climate change and so when we talk about who's going to bear the most burden when we transition out of the carbon economy. Most likely is going to be those populations that have historically been colonized you know and you know what's happening in South East Africa is a perfect example of why we need to transition away from not just the carbon economy but capitalist economies in general because if we look at the history of how Africa has been a resource colony for Europe and for North America we can look internally in the United States and understand that Indigenous nations continue to serve as a resource colonies for the United States whether it's the Navajo Nation where I'm living right now that is producing oil and coal to generate electricity for the Southwest region or whether it's for Berthold Reservation up in North Dakota that is you know ground 0 for oil and gas development in the bokken region we have to understand that it didn't it's nations have largely been turned into resource colonies and sights of sacrifice for. Not just the United States but for the oil and gas industry and so we need to not just think beyond climate change and putting carbon into the atmosphere but we actually need to think about the system the social system right that created those conditions in the 1st foot in the 1st place and so capitalism is fundamentally a social relation it's a part a profit driven system whereas indigenous sort of ways of relating is one about reciprocity and mutual sort of respect not just with the human but also with the nonhuman world and we're undergoing You know the 6th math 6th massive extinction event which is caused by not just climate change but it's caused by capitalist sort of systems in the the. The profit driven sort of motive of our current economic and social system I want to go to President Trump right after he was inaugurated announcing. The pair of presidential memorandum Zz to revive the Keystone x.l. And Dakota access oil pipelines the 2 major projects halted by the Obama administration following massive resistance from indigenous and environmental groups. Over the code Tipler. So they've been in dispute subject to a renegotiation of terms by us. We're going to renegotiate them with the. If they'd like. We'll see if we can get that pipeline built out of 20. Great. This is with respect to the construction of the code that access. To code x. Is. Again that they can do to be negotiated so that is President Trump a newly inaugurated announcing that he was moving forward with the Dakota access pipeline and he was reviving the Keystone x.l. The significance of this Professor estus. So if we go back to 2014. Obama was the one of 6 sitting presidents actually visit an Indian reservation during his time in office and he actually visited Standing Rock during their flag day Powell and met with then trouble chairman Dave r. Shambled the 3rd. And so he made a promise to youth at that particular. Powell that he would you know with that we would put our minds together to make what's best for the future generations you know sightings Sitting Bull one of the the look at the leaders of resistance in the 1900 centuries. And you know that that the Dakota access pipeline when it came down from the block an oil region it was those Standing Rock youths who ran to Washington d.c. Hoping that Obama would live up to his promise to listen to the youth the Indigenous youth and you know from what we know now it's that we don't know if he was even listening and so in many ways you know Obama couldn't really halt the construction of the pipeline towards the end of his term I know that there was there was a. Order to halt the construction in a mandated environmental review but in by and large you know he he bought his administration was a failure to uphold sort of that promise to indigenous people and so if the Obama administration is a failure then the trumpet administration is an absolute catastrophe for Indigenous nations in the United States because you know Trump has intensified the oil and gas extraction not just in the box in the region but here in the 4 corners area in the Permian Basin and western Texas and parts of New Mexico oil production has just you know it increased and he's using the Bureau of Land Management to. To . Essentially sell off sometimes for dollars of the on the acre Indigenous land or public lands as we know it now which is really just all an indigenous land to the highest bidder and when we when we talk about pipelines and we talk about or oil and gas production we really 'd have to talk about the source of those pipelines and here you know in the Southwest region it's the Permian Basin and the 4 corners region where there's a you know there's been extensive fracking in oil and gas development Nick asked this you focus on 7 historical moments of versus tense in your new book Our history is the future. You say they form a historical roadmap for collective liberation How did you choose these histories just to quickly take us through them. So I begin at the camps I begin in the present you know Standing Rock and then I go to the fur trade with the 1st u.s. Invasion which was Lewis and Clark who came through the trust passed through our territory and were stopped by our leadership and then I go through the Indian wars of the 19th century in the Buffalo genocide and then I go into talking about the damming of the Missouri River in the mid 20th century and then looking at red power in the 1960 s. In the 1970 s. And how all of these indigenous people who were relocated because their lands were flooded by these dams eventually found themselves and created sort of the modern indigenous. Movement known as Red Power and then looking going back and ending actually at Standing Rock in 1994 with the creation of the International Indian Treaty Council which really coalesced these generations of indigenous resistance and took the treaties the $868.00 Fort Laramie Treaty to the world into the United Nations and to do that they looked to Palestinians they looked to the South African anti-apartheid movement who provided the mechanisms for recognition of of indigenous rights at the United Nations and that all resulted over 4 decades in the touchstone document the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples which was passed by the u.n. In 2007 and so in many ways when we look at Standing Rock and we look at it we go down flag row and we see the hundreds of tribal nation flags that were represented in 2016 in 2017 we also saw the Palestinian flag that was there kind of hearkening back to that that that that international solidarity with movements of the global south and specifically our policy. Indian relatives who you know today are still facing let much like us are still facing the brunt and the brutality of colonialism whether it's the you know the United States recognition recognizing the annexation of the Golan Heights or whether it's you know here in North America and the continued dispossession of indigenous territory and rights we can see that there colonialism in Israel or in Palestine is in is really an extension of settler colonialism in North America and so that then and you know with back at the camps and looking at how these camps really provided you know actually look at a physical map that was handed out to water protectors who came to the camp and on that map there was you know where to find food where to find the clinics right and where to find the security and the all the camps that were represented at the Standing Rock into me that provided you know a kind of interesting parallel to the world that surrounded the camps which was 90 you know some 92 different law enforcement jurisdictions you had the North Dakota National Guard the world of cops the world of the militarized sort of police state and in the camps themselves you had sort of the the primordial sort of beginnings of what a world premised on indigenous justice might look like and in that world you know everyone got free food there was a place for everyone you know housing you know obviously was transit housing and tepees and things like that but then also there was health clinics to provide health care alternative forms of health care to everyone and so if we look at that it's housing education all for free right strong sense of community and for a short time there was free education at the camps right those are things that most poor communities in the United States don't have access to us. Freshly reservation communities but given the opportunity to create a new world in that camp centered on print edition is justice and treaty rights. Society organized itself according to need not to profit and so where there was you know the world of settlers. Surrounded us there was the world of indigenous justice that existed for a brief moment in time and in that world instead of doing to their society what they did to us genocide in removing excluding we there's a capacious n'est to indigenous resistance movements that welcomes in non indigenous peoples and to our struggle because that's our primary strength is one of relation ality one of making kin right Nick Stas indigenous scholar an activist author of our history is the future and coeditor of the new book Standing with Standing Rock voices of the no Dapple Movement Nick Estes is co-founder of the indigenous resistance group the Red Nation and a citizen of the Lower Brule Sioux Tribe He's assistant professor in the American Studies Department at the University of New Mexico when we come back we'll speak to the Indian writer aren't out here I stay with us the. This is Democracy Now Democracy Now dot org The War and Peace Report I mean the good men as we turn now to the crisis in Kashmir as India's crackdown continues over the summer massive protests arrested after the Indian prime minister Narendra Modi revoke the special status of the Indian controlled part of the Muslim majority region human rights groups say the modis government then carried out widespread torture extrajudicial killings arbitrary arrests and other crimes in Kashmir on August 5th the complete communication blackout was imposed there we turn now to the Indian writer and activists are inductee Royo she has long spoken out for self-determination for the people of Kashmir aren't out here I won the Booker Prize in 1097 for her 1st novel The God of Small Things her 2nd novel The Ministry of upmost happiness was long listed for the Man Booker Prize in 20172002 Roy received a line in foundation Cultural Freedom Prize her most recent book is a collection of her nonfiction essays titled My seditious heart Democracy Now it's in our main shape and I recently interviewed aren't Dotty Roy and our New York studio I began by asking her about the crisis in Kashmir Well I don't I mean my heart there's not much to do with it but suit today is the 100th day of. The Soto information and the Internet shutdown in Kashmir. Has been on the co few for most of these 100 days now the go Few has been lifted schools have been reopened. Markets have been declared open by. Refusing to accept this sort of normal normalcy you know because what happened on the 5th of August was this striking down of what was known as Section 370 which really incorporated in the Indian Constitution this special conditions on which. The Sovereign kingdom of German Cushnie exceeded to India and so by striking that down they struck down or they. Demoted crush me from being a state to being what's known as the union territory that trifle created but most important that they dissolved a law called 35 which which made me the stewards of their own land so now you know it can be overrun by Indians that that's the that's the way they see it I mean India you know a little used to say I mean it is an integral part of India but now they see now it's really an integral part of India you know. Modi. Well it's been important you know the thing is that more the more than the b j p more the belongs to the r.s.s. The Seabrook song which is sort of the mother ship of the culture of mother ship of which the b. Gypsies a political. And the striking down of this section has always been on the agenda of the r.s.s. You know so it was one by one these things are being done which are. Things that they have sworn to do there's nothing impulsive or sudden about it is just unconstitutional and probably legal but it's not impulse to express and do supremacist Yes Yes Well earlier this year you wrote an opinion piece on Kashmir for the New York. Times headlined The silence is the loudest sound in the piece you wrote quote While partition and the horrifying violence that it caused is a deep and healed wound in the memory of the subcontinent the violence of those times as well as in the years since India and Pakistan has as much to do with simulation as a does with partition what's unfolding today on both sides of the border of the erstwhile state of Jammu and Kashmir is the unfinished business of assimilation you wrote that in the New York Times in August Can you talk about what you meant by that well what I meant was that you know. We tend to forget that at the time of partition there were more than $500.00 independent sovereign territories kingdoms princely states and regions. And when the British left since then in fact since 947 there has been a continuous process a military process to simulate these areas I mean just move and crush me was one of them but across the northeast you know neither line. Money all these places and all all of them have very specific and unique films and conditions on rich they exceeded to the union so that's what I meant you know by the violence of assimilation in that I mean whether it was the princely state of Juno good or high the Bible or what happened in. Hundreds maybe tens of 1000 they don't do body counts but thousands of people have been killed I mean just in Hyderabad alone it was 40000 the new report says you know in a land it's been more than that in me viewed 70000 people that have died in this conflict so the numbers are huge and hidden by the sort of noise and music and sound of the. Ocracy but so these battles like. The struggle has been for freedom has been militant since 1990 and today it's the densest military occupation in the wood made more dense in August on the 5th of August by another 50000 troops that were flown in to deal with the possible fallout of of what would happen after this abrogation So what does this blackout mean how many people have been arrested have you heard about torture and what has been Pakistan's response but thousands of people have been the arrested the remarkable thing was that the leaders across the spectrum have been arrested including 3 chief ministers all. Politicians carrying India's water right from 947 so what has happened is now there is no voice that's coming out of question that's why I said the silence is the loudest sound everyone where do it's the major politicians where there's boys who threw stones on the street whether it's businessmen lawyers everyone is in jail even now you know then they got all phones they got off the Internet I mean can you imagine when has it been done before 7000000 people communication lockdown people don't know whether their children have died but they're alive at night police and soldiers are going into people's houses arresting them. You know so. We actually don't even know all of the level of order that is output and how the fact is that some light some 4 lines have been restored but still the Internet is not being restored in a country where until now they were boasting about digital India everything works on the internet to know whether your I mean whether you're whether it's hospitals or medicine supplies or you know. The media is completely censored so it's a bit like those those those pamphlets that you know the Americans used to drop in really during the war saying how great this war is where you know newspapers in question have these big front page advertisement about how great this an exception is for Christmas Eve and how wonderful a time they are having now you know so well I'd like to go to another state in India that's under siege and that's the northeastern state of a some where nearly 2000000 people are at risk of being rendered stateless after the government published its national register of citizens earlier this year the highly contested register was 1st created in 1951 and lists people who were able to prove they came to the state by March 24th 1971 a day before a neighboring Bunder the then East Pakistan declared independence from Pakistan the Indian government says the list helps identify bonded issue migrants who are not legal residents critics say it's an attempt to deport millions of Muslims residents suspected of being foreigners can be rounded up and sent to prison camps as many as 10 mass detention centers are now being built in the area to incarcerate these so-called stateless people so I don't doubt that you were recently in Assam Can you talk about what the situation there is now and these detention centers that are being built. He does situation as is Sam is really complicated you know because like you said as Sam Sam is a state that borders Bangladesh earlier it was part of what was then known as East Bengal which then became a spit Pakistan which became Bangladesh and it has a history of migration which goes back to like a team $26.00 or India when the British basically took over as they. More or less invited the kind of robust presence of East Bengal to come in to this state which they thought was like the British thought in in Australia you know there are no lists they did not pay attention to the fact that it was actually populated by very many try this something like 200 different tribes languages communities there's a there's a history to the. National citizens register in Assam which can't be simplified You know it wasn't it wasn't what people in the Indian mainland like to think Office or some Hindu Muslim problem it was not it was more actually a resentment of the Assamese or people who thought they were Assamese against Bengalis and then there was a linguistic problem there of the British declaring Bengali to be the language but the situation now is of course that the current. Bigoted is is kind of grafting that self on to a genuine problem of millions of you know millions of refugees coming in from Bangladesh and now they've been settled people have been settled there as I said for more than 150 years and suddenly their thing produced your legacy papers not suddenly I mean this has been going on since the fifty's there the danger is what what that they are planning to do I mean even these 2000000 people they see that they have to. Appear before tribunals I said I visited some of these islands which are called The Choice loons the poverty. Illiteracy there's no health education no school and suddenly you're casting these people into this labyrinth of bureaucracy and lawyers and terror by other means you know what does it mean if you lose your citizenship I mean like Hannah Arendt said you know what is citizenship is the right to have rights you know you lose data you lose everything but you know so so the conflict in that Sam has been happening for a long time for example in 1903 there was the nearly massacre where you know or fish lead was I think 2000 people an officially up 210000 Muslims are killed now again you can't just police it directly in the same sort of debate that goes on in the mainland but today the real danger is that the Home Minister. The day he took office. You declared that they were going to 1st 1st they said they were going to. Allow the n.r.c. All over India he allowed district magistrates and state governments to set up these foreigners tribunals and detention centers all over India and now the danger that they feel and. The National Register citizens is that off those 2000000 people actually not all 2000000 are Muslims more than half are supposed to be Hindus or people who have not managed to prove this uninterrupted legacy since 900 $71.00 so the Brigitte p. In order to get over that problem is planning in the next session of Parliament to pass a citizenship amendment bill in which it then Amanda's this whole process to explicitly. Say that. Those who are Christians this Hindus refugees persecuted refugees from other countries from the countries of Pakistan. And Bangladesh will eventually be given citizenship so leaving out Muslims and then using the book of the Bangladeshi or the Muslim refugee or infiltrator who the home minister calls toll might to actually ask the. Population of India to produce legacy documents what does that mean you know the only thing the last time that was done is. In 1905 in Germany you know when the when the Reich said that only the people is that we give you decide whether you're a citizen or not so it has a very dangerous situation and then you have this latest development of India Supreme Court ruling in favor of Hindus and a decades long dispute how did the New York Times describe it over a holy site contested by Muslims handing the prime minister and his followers a major victory in their quest to remake the country as tendu and shifted further from its secular foundation explain the significance of this holy site. Well I mean it's pretty unholy dispute I have to see you know so nobody mustered was built in the 16th century and. 49 after independence. The Hindus claimed that the actual physical of. The young god drama was found there they've always said that this was the birthplace of law drum and then in the late eighty's and early ninety's as the b.g. Was rising. Led a huge campaign saying that they wanted to. Temple to be built there and in $92.00 a mob led by Beach bit by the b j p and an organization called the Vishwa Hindu but it should basically hammered the more mosque into dust and since then and after that around 2000 people were killed in riots mostly Muslim and since then it has been the cause in that is brought to the fore every time the b.g.p. Has campaigned for an election we need to build this temple and so on so now in the way the resolution is because these other issues have come which are which are going to be permanently on the boil you know crush me down the national register citizens and so it's time for them to establish this one great victory and the Supreme Court judgment I mean I haven't read it because it came out yesterday but it was just 1000 pages long and I've only read you know excerpts from it but it seems to be. Its logic seems to be a little untenable because on the one hand it says that there's no evidence that there was a Hindu temple underneath this mosque it says that there there were sort of nearly goodis a creation of the Mount mosque on 2 occasions one when this little idol was put in and the other when it was demolished by a mob. But then it says that Muslims have been unable to prove that they were sure that this mosque uninterruptedly for all these years I don't know what else they were doing in the mosque if not worshipping and even though there wasn't a temple and even though there's no proof the Hindus. Have been able to prove that they have had uninterrupted possession of it and saw. The land was handed over to a trust which is going to build this temple so it seemed to lose twisted to me the whole thing but. I think you know the more interesting thing is that. In the days in the run up to this there was you know Section 144 which means it's public assembly. The social media was being watched the prime minister came out and said We want peace because it's in a way. It's the peace of victory you know the victims want peace. But it shows you how when they want to control a situation they can and when they want to allow the. Lynching they suddenly appear helpless you know Indian writer and activist aren't actually Roy will be back with her in a minute. 'd This as we continue our conversation with the Indian writer and activists are undoubtedly Roy I recently interviewed her with Democracy Now is your main share so earlier this year during prime minister Narendra Modi's visit to the u.s. President Trump appeared alongside Modi at a Houston Texas rally billed as. All of the about 50000 Indian Americans attended the event chanting Modi Modi as he appeared on stage to introduce Trump calling him quote my friend a friend of India a great American president the how the more the event was the largest event of its kind with a visiting leader in the u.s. Just days before the rally a pair of cash needy citizens filed a lawsuit in the us against Modi for carrying out extrajudicial killings and other crimes in Occupied Kashmir Trump also praised Modi in his remarks at the event. In November the United States and India will demonstrate a dramatic progress of our defense relationship olding their 1st ever try service delivery exercise between our nations is called Tiger. Good good. Good good. Both India there are also wonders that to keep our communities we most protect our borders so that Trump speaking at the how the more the event earlier this year so can you talk about the relationship between Trump and Madi and also these series of events in India which all seem to be. Kind of successes for the Mahdi government we just talked about Kashmir the National Register of citizens and now this judgement these are like I said you know they are all very linked and they are all part of the r.s.s. Agenda so. Actually you know white supremacists or knew your not or Aryan supremacists all of them must look at India's r.s.s. With great envy because they do none of them can match that kind of history an organization right now they have something like 600000 volunteers you know trained paramilitary more they of course is a member of that organization they have some 57000 branches across the country they run schools where millions of students study it's all very so so so as you can see Trump is almost in gray shooting in his own country you know being gifted this massive audience I mean I should tell you that while we were being gifted this massive audience of people of color of people of color and he. Of course within 2 days of this was being you know the whole impeachment news had come in but. You know what is happening in India and all these victories that are. Accruing one by one also you forgetting that the monetisation which was and more these 1st. I think today's 30 year anniversary of it when more they came on t.v. And announced that 80 percent of India's currency was no longer legal tender today economists say that it was the equivalent of shooting the tires off a racing car the Indian economy is tanking you know. Economists say that this is actually in recession that the figures are not correct and if you come to India you see how terrifying the situation is because you can't see where the this massive loss of jobs is a 45 year low off the name high unemployment whether all these all these jobless people who are now just getting the cocaine high of building a temple and you know making fascist really yours or whether that is going to go against more the I can't see yet you know but these victories are going to be Pyrrhic victories I just don't know how long it will take for them to go down I don't know how many of us will pay the price for it and I don't know how. India can survive this because India is a country is not a country it's a continent it's a continent with $780.00 languages and more religions than all of Europe you know this kind of thing can only be temporary and then there can be. Something very off with that happens unless people understand what's being done to them but they're living in a kind of hothouse of propaganda and event management and the kind of costume ball that passes for government while you talk about how people can survive that what about you as a very outspoken writer critical of Modi How vulnerable do you feel. Well you know I think all of us who who you know when they when they when they won the election this time in April the 1st thing that in his election speech that evening after the vote was counted he just wondered why aren't you happy you know the speech was again full of anger and he had destroyed the opposition he had destroyed all the. Parties that represented the disadvantaged costs to all of that had collapsed but he went after the intellectuals but right to you know this kind of gang he called are so for people who who who he simply can't seem to. Controlled but now one by one I look around and there are empty chairs you know people are in jail people are being killed it's it's really interesting you've come to this country can you talk about Trump in the United States how you view what's happening here now and how you view the elections that are taking place and the candidates who are challenging him from Joe Biden to Bernie Sanders to it was wine Well I mean often when people have asked you know I I've said this that Trump seems to be seems to me to be the kind of a flu and system that is collapsing that is more the is the system you know he has the backing of the media he has the backing of. The courts the majority. Tarion popular ward here I see the fight is on you know Rich Rich I hope to God. Is going to be won by this this fight back against Trump you know and I I mean personally to me when I when I listen to Bernie Sanders speaking I think it's great that these things are being said finally on the mainstream platform in the u.s. You know earlier. Earlier it would have been just inconceivable that someone is coming out and saying the things that he's saying about health care and about you know minimum wages and all of that so. I just see that here the fight is on and for us in India it would matter that that someone like Trump loses although. Although I'll say this too that we've seen that quite often democratic governments are more aggressive internationally you know so I hope that doesn't happen I doubt it will happen if someone like Bernie Sanders wins you know but there's been no. I mean the devastation of the world after 911 is just I mean movie let's just let me just say this everyone forgets and there's a sort of sponsored amnesia over this that how did more the end to Indian politics weeks after 911 when Islamophobia became. A world you know sanctioned across the world weeks after that they'd be j.p. . Removed the sitting Chief Minister of good your art and installed more the who was at that time not even an elected member of the Legislative Assembly and within months of that you had this fire of really recall which in which 59 Hindu pilgrims were burnt nobody knows yet what that fire was caused by and then you had the famous 2002 programme in which. 2500 people were massacred slaughtered reaped bowing to life and within a very short time yeah and within a very short time more the announcer elections one and even in 2014 when Reuters asked him during his you know his campaign where he was going to be the prime ministerial candidate for the b a p Reuters asked him if he regretted what had happened under his watch and then he basically said I would regret it even if a dog came under the reels of my car and of course he was banned from the United States he was not allowed to enter because of what happened there. So you know what happens in the us. You know sometimes you don't even realize the ripples that it causes and the waves of their destruction that are created by the actions of this country you know and. Trump. I mean it's it's awful to to see what's happening here and it's embarrassing to see what's happening here but I just I just I just don't think that every single institution has collapsed in the real it has over there every single institute institution has fallen in line the media and the Supreme Court could have stood in the way of what is happening in India it hasn't you know so we are in. Barely very news trouble there. Why would it make such a big difference to India Trampas electoral Trampas not why would it make a difference because you see this kind of. Ideology you know though the Ku Klux Klan ism of drum the white supremacy that is growing all over Europe and the ideology of the artists should be the oil interlock you know and many of the far right. Individuals have course no connection with each other you know so. That's why I say that it would and the point is I don't know all you know like I don't know what more I can see or do because I really don't. I really don't think that anybody can. Help India except. The people you know and one is beginning to be scared of the people you know of of the things that are being said in the open of the lynching in the clouds gathering making videos where the people are being beaten to death you know the. Since 201520 people have been lynched. Are you careful when you walk. Yeah I mean I I. I think that whatever will happen will happen I can do anything about it you know like go around being feel for because I know that there are a lot of great things you know the sad the real tragedy for me is that everything that was beautiful about India whether it was the music whether it is the craft whether it's the poetry whether it's the literature where that is the language everything that's beautiful about that please comes from that infinite complexity the composition of soffit and everything this beautiful who is being turned into acid you know everything that's beautiful been turned inside out and having just as a right to order or artist or a person who loves poetry or language you know it's just it's just it's just unthinkable borders being dug how can you tell a country that has 780 languages and secure Zuma and Buddhism and Christianity and various indigenous Gods and Goddess's and all of that that you want one language one constitution one religion one nation it's suicide Well speaking of a different kind of asked that I wanted to ask you about the pollution in India about climate change you come to the United States just a week after President Trump announced the final plans to remove the United States from the Paris climate agreement the only country in the world to withdraw you come from New Delhi Government authorities have warned that Delhi has turned into. A gas chamber with toxic smog blanketing one of the world's most populated cities officials have declared a public health emergency and distributed over 5000000 asks to residents who are worried about the physical and psychological impact of the pollution I mean these are the Americans who heard it from breathing this is illusion is also a person who is in a sort of was it really that's what's happening now but it's not when you're also it's tough enough we're walking around with masks here so aren't you were you live in New Delhi everything from try being a climate denier to where does Modi stand and what do you think needs to happen well you know sometimes some of us feel like the the pollution in Delhi is somehow representative off of of of the of the politics too you know it's just it's just so I drew from Delhi to let down and then job Joe learn the. Last week it was like 7 hours. It was like dystopia you know just burning small you couldn't tell where that was night or day. Seymour the again he stands up and it's a says things which people want to hear about the climate but. Appear and talk to children and say things like or the world is not warming it's just that we are feeling warmer you know like or stupid stuff like that and in fact where they were talking about us when we're talking much. In some ways it does have to do with climate change because there is a prediction that India's greatest crisis in the very near future is going to be a water crisis and of course as you know I mean I have spent a lot of time writing about water and development and crop bateau and all of that. Others he gave himself the food to the brim Reza void of the name of that dam on his 69th birthday 5 days before he came to America for whether to try to fill the reservoir of the night when the dam you know a reservoir that's I guess larger than the size of a room or something and so the people who'd been fighting the dam just watched their homes go under and this was his birthday present to himself but. You know the thing is that even like I'm seeing about me and Assam underneath all this there is also all calculations about climate for example there are 5 rivers that run through push me and to come on dear that water or to have proper access to it is very very important and the other and the other thing is what is this business of. Declaring people who state or asking people to present their legacy documents you don't going to be able to really expel millions of people I mean Bangladesh is not going to take them so the idea is to create a kind of feel good citizenship in which some people have rights and some people don't like. The new caste system that exists alongside the old one but now with legal provisions in which Muslims are the new ballots. As are these being touchable and so you have a situation where resources are shrinking water is disappearing and the economy is is shrinking too so. Better our very terrifying courts underlying this is like you're reaching back into some odious past to come up with a modern management system for a modern crisis before we conclude that the I'm sure you're aware that your Booker Prize winning book God of Small Things was listed by the b.b.c. As one of the 100 novels that shaped the world are you working on another book of fiction no not right now you know I'm. Very disturbed you don't buy everything that's going on so I'm hoping that. After a few months I will. Retreat where it's very. I don't know it's very hard to communicate the scale and. The sheer of of this shadow that is taking India or will you know like. I. Know that what happened in Germany happened because people thought those who were raising the early warnings were too emotional and Anglo-Saxon Marchal world isn't like emotion you know but the truth is that. It's a it's a very very serious problem that we have and it has it comes at us from every direction now and. So yeah I don't know I don't know how to how to communicate this and I don't know how what anyone can do about it except us you know but still. I just have to get the Indian writer and activist aren't out here her debut novel The God of Small Things was recently named by the b.b.c. As one of the 100 novels that shaped our world our and most recent book is a collection of her nonfiction essays titled My seditious heart and that does it for today's show tuned in Friday for a special hour with the legendary musician David Byrne talking about his Broadway hit American utopia his time in the talking heads how he became a bike advocate and so much more that's riding on Democracy Now democracy now is produced by Mike. Carlo will be rainy Sam John Hamilton Robbie Karen honey Masood training to do it came or asked to go and Maria Tara saying that like to pull up on Miguel Megaera our engineer special thanks to Becca Stanley Julie Crosby Miriam Barnard Hugh Grant David prudishness Best regards and Karl Marx are and to our camera crew John Randolph Karen program and I was back on that I'm Amy Goodman thanks so much for joining us this is curious j.d. Ideas stories community 91.5 curious to you Cortez 90.5 G.'s e e 2 toy Ark 89.50 Rico and courtesy of the name college 92 point one k. It's w r o p So you listen and make is that 91 point one an unpleasant view 90.9 followers on Facebook Twitter Instagram and on the web. Or g. Good afternoon all things considered is next it's 4 o'clock. I. Know people hold the weeks phone and they call it up high and then whoever has the bigger pie makes always that will come true of people celebrating their 1st thanksgiving tell us about their understanding of this American holiday It's Thursday November 28th and this is All Things Considered from n.p.r. News. I'm Ari Shapiro this hour Story Corps brings us the great Listen we have a conversation between Audie Cornish and her nephew also Duncan lost the donuts from its name this year and now it's losing the famous Styrofoam cups just heard the news this morning and I was like oh that's going to be a problem later the future of Venice and our 5th annual musical chain of gratitude where artists tell us about the music they're thankful for keep making music I really like that you have helped shape a little black girl from beginning am so honored that your voice is present in our world 1st these headlines. Live from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm deal Willman President Trump is on his way back to the United States after making a surprise Thanksgiving Day visit to u.s. Troops in Afghanistan N.P.R.'s Winsor Johnston reports that while in Afghanistan Trump announced plans to restart peace negotiations with the Taliban that announcement comes less than 3 months after rescheduled talks with the group speaking at Baghran Air Base on the outskirts of Kabul Trump thank the troops for their continued service in America's longest war he also suggested that the Taliban are ready to negotiate the Taliban wants to make a deal we'll see if they want to make a deal is going to be a real deal but we'll see but they want to make a deal and they only want to make a deal because you do a great job at Chili's they want to make if you try to ended formal peace talks with a militant group in September after it claimed responsibility for an attack in Kabul that killed a dozen people including an American soldier the president also says the u.s. Is moving ahead with plans to substantially reduce troop levels in Afghanistan Winsor Johnston n.p.r. News Washington officials in China have some of the u.s. Ambassador to protest new legislation signed by President Trump this week the measures mandate say.