To try to limit the rally Meanwhile Iraqi security forces are accused of firing upon protesters with live ammunition and tear gas for n.p.r. News on the Sylow in New York as the strike of nearly 50000 workers at General Motors enters its 4th week there's a snag in the contract talks the u.a.w. As top negotiator with General Motors says talks took a turn for the worse over the weekend after the union presented a proposal to the company yesterday which General Motors responded to today by reverting back to an offer that had already been rejected by the union Dustin Dwyer of Michigan publisher Michigan Radio has more workers say they want better protections for temporary employees and an increase in wages to make up for concessions they made when g.m. Was in financial trouble u.a.w. Vice president Terry Davis told members on Friday that quote good progress had been made in the talks but by Sunday things had changed did as said the union quote could not be more disappointed with General Motors after its latest response in a statement the company says it remains committed to negotiations until an agreement can be reached for n.p.r. News I'm Dustin Dwyer in Grand Rapids Michigan and the strike has shut down G.M.'s u.s. Production sense it started $21.00 days ago that's been hampering manufacturing in Mexico and Canada it's also impacting suppliers to you're listening to n.p.r. News from Washington. But Francis is denouncing contemporary forms of colonialism and urged conservatives to be open to change as N.P.R.'s Sylvia Poggioli reports the pope spoke at a mass at the Vatican at the start of a divison meeting on the Amazon and minister and to its indigenous peoples. The. St Peter's ornate Renaissance decor was in stark contrast to the feathered head dresses and brightly painted faces of some indigenous people in the Amazon media has angered the pope's critics who charge it implicitly recognizes forms of paganism such as the worship of danger in his homily Francis prayed that God preserve us from New forms of colonialism the focal Peacock entity think at least through fires like the one that recently devastated Amazonia I said are fed by interests that destroy they blaze up he added when people want to promote only their own ideas form their own group and wipe out differences in the attempt to make everyone and everything uniform Sylvia Poggioli n.p.r. News Rome astronauts onboard the International Space Station started the 1st of 5 spacewalks today to replace old batteries with the more powerful lithium ion ones the 400 pound batteries half the size of a refrigerator or part of the space station's solar power network NASA plans to wrap up the 5 batteries spacewalks this month and then that will be followed by a Russian space walk I'm joining her post and you're listening to n.p.r. News from Washington support for n.p.r. Comes from the group or family foundation supporting N.P.R.'s efforts to promote deeper thinking broader perspectives and trusted facts based information always with the goal of creating a more informed public and listeners like you who donate to this n.p.r. Station. The Center for Investigative Reporting in p r x This is revealed. Producer Kate McMahon was vacationing with her family in Victoria British Columbia one morning Kate made a discovery that would send her into a year long reporting journey. Tell us what happened that morning. Well I was going for a run and I spotted a herd of deer in some woods across the road so I decided to follow them to take video with my smartphone for my kids. See it's a mom. With that baby and I realize I'm standing in this cemetery one gravestone I'm standing over totally gives me chills can you have and Helen for. 196-9900 87 she parts her wings and then she's gone. She was only 18 years old I'm wondering car accident drug overdose and so I take a picture of her grave was to take a picture it was just a moment of feeling like I wanted to put good thoughts out there for this girl's family whoever they were. And then something mindblowing happened later that night I show my husband the photo and he says I know that name I don't believe him we're in a foreign country and I had followed deer into a random cemetery so I go online and find out he's actually right 10 years name had been in the news that week and I find out how she died she and her boyfriend had been murdered 31 years before and no one had been arrested until now so what happened to the well I'm going to take us back to the beginning. It's November 18th 1907 and this young Canadian couple tenured and Highland Park and Jake Hook are taking their 1st big trip together alone it's a short trip just one night away from home they're on an errand for J's dad who needs them to buy a furnace part in Seattle I recently retrace their steps. They board the ferry in Victoria Harbor in Jay's van and head to party Angeles. But tenure and Jay never make it to Fianna. They left on a Wednesday and they were to return basically by midday on Thursday was the expectation and when they didn't return on Thursday my parents were of the firm view that there was something wrong that's 10 years Big Brother John Van Pallenberg meeting him for the 1st time it strikes me that if tenure had lived she might have grown into certain traits like John courteous gentle dutiful I notice a weariness in his eyes though and he fidgets with a water bottle as we talk John tells me that 6 days after the couple went missing the police called his family's home bed found the body of a girl in a rural area just north of Seattle and then my father and I had to identify her which unfortunately it was 10 you so that was that was the dark very dark day what I'm about to describe is pretty gruesome. The killer had shot 10 yet in the back of the head execution style a stranger's semen is found on her pants and in her body Jay's van is found the next day and his body the day after that about 70 miles away from tenure in another rural area Jay's head had been beaten he'd been strangled a pair. Of cigarettes stuffed into his mouth there were just so many questions no answers and the police couldn't give us any answers they didn't know what the heck it happened. You know so you just had to just kind of you know I think in the short term you just kind of gave up the funeral takes place at the University of Victoria chapel there's standing room only it was. Huge attendance I mean as often happens when young people die. I asked John about the epitaph on 10 years grave that says she parts her wings and then she's gone there was a line she'd written some of her own poetry and. You heard an obviously struck my dad is being you know oddly. Eerie in one sense of her having left us too soon like that. The case remains unsolved for the next few years in 1990 it's featured in an episode of America's Unsolved Mysteries next the story of an innocent young couple dramatic weekend was shattered by a sadistic to kill. The show interviews a Seattle police detective at the time who says surgical gloves were left behind by the killer believes those behind as as basically a sign to the police that he needn't look for fingerprints because I wear these gloves and he has confidence that there's nothing that's going to connect him with he's cracked the story generates no viable leads. By the families still have no answers from police. Then New Hope d.n.a. Is taking the place of the fingerprint as law enforcement's most cutting edge tool in 1904 the f.b.i. Creates a d.n.a. Database called codice it contains genetic profiles of people who have been arrested or convicted of crimes police can compare d. . They recover from crime scenes with this database to identify suspects in tenure and J's case police check codice periodically but never find a match the case goes cold until 2005 Detective Jim Scharf of the snow Homesh County Sheriff's Office comes on the scene. This is where we book all of the evidence I meet detective sheriff at the evidence room in Everett Washington packages here log into this computer and he likes to go by Jim He shows me the process of booking evidence making a roll of tape as an example so we're going to look into evidence so we're going to take it and we put it in a sack Jim seals up the sack write his initials on it and sticks it in a locker I'm struck by how I don't know analog It all seems. And then shot it. Jim has a neatly trimmed gray mustache and his eyes are soft in the corners when I ask him about restaurants in Everett he tells me he usually just goes to Arby's I glimpse a pistol under his jacket when he sits down I was a major crimes detective and we were just getting ready to start the Cold Case team Jim reopened Hania and J's cold case and for more than a decade he followed all kinds of leads but like the detective before him never found a d.n.a. Match in codice then in 2017 he hears about a new way to use d.n.a. To identify people investigators say they were able to create these sketches of a possible suspect using d.n.a. You know typing pheno typing is this revolutionary new forensics technology it takes d.n.a. From an unknown person and creates a computer drawing of what they look like provide information the person's like hair color I color complection the d.n.a. Found on tan yet generates 3 faces. Of a white man 1st as he appears at age 25 with reddish brown hair then $45.65 he has deep facial lines in his going gray to Detective sharp it's like staring the killer in the eye for the very 1st time. The phenotype helps sheriff is able to vastly shrink the haystack of suspects by ruling out people who don't look like the sketch but still no d.n.a. Match then in April 28th news from California changes everything in the world of d.n.a. And crime solving tonight a 4 decade old search one of history's most infamous serial killers may be over we found the needle in a haystack police announcing the capture of 72 year old Joseph James D'Angelo a man they say is the elusive Golden State killer I'm like who's the Golden State killer I've never even heard of this sheriff goes on line and learns he's a serial killer and rapist who victimized more than 60 people in the seventy's and eighty's in northern California the alleged killer was found with a mind blowing new forensics technique called genetic genealogy genetic genealogy is using d.n.a. To learn more about someone's family history and family tree that's the Seymour She's one of the top genetic genealogists in the world. She even appears at the d.n.a. Expert on the hit p.b.s. Television series Finding Your Roots with Henry Louis Gates Jr she's a detective with skills that would put Sherlock Holmes to shame in addition to helping people trace their ancestors c.c. Uses genetic genealogy to find a living usually adoptees searching for their birth parents for any type of human identification there really isn't anything more powerful than d.n.a. And genetic genealogy there are 2 main reasons genetic genealogy is so powerful 1st because it reaches far beyond the f.b.i. Is. Database of convicts and people have been arrested and 2nd in a corporate much more genetic data it's really complicated but here's the gist of it law enforcement uses codice to analyze 20 genetic markers genetic genealogy analyzes about 800000 they can identify very distant relatives and ancestors from generations ago it casts a really wide net but only works if it can access a lot of d.n.a. Profiles. By 2018 more than 25000000 consumers have added their d.n.a. To the leading ancestry databases but those companies like 23 and Me and Ancestry dot com Keep each other locked out of their customer's data police are locked out too unless they get a court order so what was the key in the Golden State killer case well there's this website called Jed back which it allows people who get their d.n.a. Tested by one company to compare their genetic profile with customers who used other companies it's sort of like a d.n.a. Swab meet and it's open access to the public if you tested 23 Me I was at Ancestry d.n.a. And we want to see if we share d.n.a. We can both upload to jet match without having to pay for another test typically only serious genealogists use Jed match but in the case of the Golden State killer the cops got in and were able to access about a 1000000 users genetic profiles investigators found the angel using d.n.a. From crime scenes decades ago which they submitted to a publicly shared genealogy website called Jed match it works so well that Judge Matsch decided to make clear that law enforcement can search it and they put a big notification on the home page of Judge Matsch that said law enforcement use the database were allowing that use That's when c.c. And a company called Paragon National Labs saw an opportunity and decided to team up. Para bond made the computer drawings of the suspects face for Detective Scharf he remembers getting a call from the c.e.o. Soon after the Golden State killer rest and he said. If you give me written permission I'll upload our d.n.a. Profile to Jed match for you for free in other words Paragon was offering to plug the d.n.a. File from 10 years crime scene into Chad match to try and find a relative of the killer so it was uploaded on I think a Friday and I waited no matches no matches Saturday morning I woke up and there were matches and I got to work on it. The Judge Matsch algorithm points are 2 people who share d.n.a. With the unknown suspect then the family tree building comes in I want to understand what it looks like so I asked c.c. To show me. Where in her living room with a view of the Pacific Ocean she settles into her work place the sofa and opens up her laptop I see graphics pop up of a family tree with people represented in pink and blue blocks and all 800000 genetic markers are compared to everyone else's genetic markers in the database then we get a list of people that share significant amounts of d.n.a. With a non-suspect she tells me the top 2 matches share about 3 percent of their d.n.a. With the unknown suspect which would mean that their 2nd cousins are similar so that means that my 1st theory is they share great grandparents with the suspect so I have to figure out who these matches are because sometimes it's not obvious but intended and G.'s case c C's very 1st one that could lead to an arrest the answer comes quickly in just 2 hours she finds a suspect that had alluded police for more than 3 decades she shows me the path she took through the family tree from those 2nd cousins she finds a family with 4 children one is a son the d.n.a. Is plenty. To this one person and this is the only other option and so by Monday we communicated that detective Scharf. Jim is out walking his little black pug dogs when he gets a message from the c.e.o. Of para bond to call him he's got good news and Mike what's the good news and he says Well Jim I've got a name for you I don't think I can believe this you got a name for me and he goes yeah we've narrowed it down to one individual they found his mother's a bitch you were in the bit you were he said that she had you know 3 daughters and only one son so it has to be that. I said Can you give me the name and he said it's William Earl Talbot the 2nd Act Jim runs Talbot's name through public records finds out where he lives and works but before he can make an arrest sheriff has to prove Talbot is the exact match to the crime scene d.n.a. He needs to get a saliva sample from him if you can get a cigarette butt or coffee cup. Or soda bottle or something that's been in the person's mouth that has their saliva on it that's a much better source of d.n.a. To know that it's a reliable source what happened next might sound like a cop show on t.v. For several days Jim team of detectives follow Talbot scout his workplace a trucking company. Outside his house. Then while tailing him through Seattle they get a breakthrough and he drove to the stop light and spoke him street and stopped and for some reason he opened the door of the semi truck and when he did that somebody spotted a white paper cup on the street underneath the door. And they were like hey I think that fell out of his truck one of the cops dashes out in the middle of traffic and grabs the cop in the street now Sharp has something he can work with he takes the cup to the state patrol crime lab and returns the next day to hear the results from the d.n.a. Supervisor she says Jim. She says you have a match so I. Fight back the tears and I just screamed when we got him. The plan for the arrest is that it goes down in the yard of the trucking company after Talbot gets off work detective Scharf is waiting outside in plainclothes there undercover agents hiding in black ski masks and swat gear is back up at about 6 pm Talbot walked out you know I said are you William Talbott he said yes. I said I'm Jim Scharf from a detective with the sheriff's office I reach out he reaches out I shake hands with him Jim explains he's investigating a homicide case and needs to rule out suspects he tells Talbot he's one of many people on the list he says why don't you come back tomorrow or the next day and I said well you know we've come a long way I says Can you give me your driver's license so I can check and see your id to verify that you and he says I told you who I am so I could see that he was not going to cooperate I said Ok You're under arrest turn around and put your hands behind your back and he says What for I said for 1st degree murder. Jim arrest Talbott he'd finally cracked the unsolved murder of 10 even Pallenberg and Jay Cooke that had haunted their families for decades he called 10 years brother John so yeah I remember he told me that yeah we've arrested him John and I said really and he said Yeah I said Well where is he he says in the back seat and I'm like well so all of a sudden of 31 years like here's Jim this great guy. And he's telling me he's in the same vehicle is this guy at this point and I just I remember a chill went down my spine I was just like they was just a real moment of realisation like Holy Cow There's actually this is really really concrete and it was fantastic. So after 3 decades police arrest a suspect in a murder case that it seemed unsolvable. For tenure and Jay's family members and for police genetic genealogy seems like the greatest invention ever for solving crime but some people worry that this powerful tool could be turned into a weapon wouldn't it be terrible if our d.n.a. Information was used to persecute and prosecute people that didn't agree with them politically you're listening to the. Reveal sponsors include l.d. Entertainment and Roadside Attractions presenting Judi stronger nasal rigor as Judy Garland 30 years after she shot to stardom in The Wizard of Oz Judy arrives in London for a tumultuous run of sold out shows now playing in theaters are you looking for extra credit submit your questions about government or sitting next to me the teacher and submit them online at k r c c dot au argy civics class a b. Wednesday at 630 in 11 am and 2 pm on k. Or. 91.5 k. R.c.c. Is dedicated to covering southern Colorado and the Rocky Mountain West your membership directly funds our journalism Thanks for supporting 91.5 k. R.c.c. N.p.r. On 91.5 k. Or c.c. Is supported locally by 50 Burger in saliva with locally sourced cuisine from burgers and fresh fish to salads and boozy shakes plus 10 rotating beer taps on Highway 50 in saliva menu and more at 50 Burger saliva dot com by 91.5 k. Or c c underwriters who realize the benefit of reaching 91.5 k. Or c.c. Listeners for more info on your business underwriting with k. Or c c Call 719-473-4801. From the Center for Investigative Reporting p r x This is reveal. We're on the trail of a killer today on May 18th 2801 day after Detective Jim Scharf cornered will tell but it worked his boss the sheriff calls a news conference to announce the arrests Good morning and thank you on being here . Yesterday took into custody a 55 year old. Who is Specter and I think it is upwards of Jake's of an Tanya and caliber to take to Scharf then steps to the podium to explain how they used to kinetic genealogy to identify Talbot as a suspect and then for genetic genealogy with me stay. Here today it's not allowed to be used in one word we would never solve this case right after Talbot's arrests police around the country start using genetic genealogy and making arrests for 3 decades the death of 8 year old able to has baffled Indiana investigators this morning who believe they finally solve the murder mystery from the day police picked up Talbot 2 a year later genetic genealogy cracked more than 50 cases of murder and rape that's a rate of more than one a week police say they did it using genetic genealogy The company ran that then unknown d.n.a. Profile through a public database and it was a partial match message that obviously we're not going to quit on these cases and my hope is that it brings helped other families that haven't had to resolve yet most a cold cases years old but some just a few months genetic genealogists c.c. Moore who helped finger William Talbott is convinced to work with police is not just solving crimes it's preventing I've worked cases that were 3 months old you know they have a really high chance every offending and even escalating and I'm sure there are you know people that were potentially serial killers that have been are will be stopped because of this but even as police crack cases faster than the ever thought possible some people warn genetic genealogy is moving too fast giving law enforcement too much access to personal information and it needs to be reined in now reveals Emily Hare's has been working with reporter Kate McMahon on today's show and then Lee picks up this part of the story. One person who believes genetic genealogy needs to be reined in is this man my name is Michael s. 3 live here in New Orleans and I work in the film industry down here it's Sunday morning I reach Michael on the phone as he's sitting in a small office in his house he tells me about an encounter he had with a precursor of genetic back in 2014 he was visiting his parents a few hours out of town and I got a call from the police down here in New Orleans who told me my vehicle matched the description of a hit and run he knew he wasn't involved he told the police he'd be happy to chat he could meet them at his house around 2 that afternoon I pulled up at exactly 2 o'clock and at 2 a 13 officers were at my door. And I have a big 90 pound Labradoodle and he likes to bark at people at the door so he was all excited when they came in and within about 30 seconds to a minute they wor asking me if I would mind going down to the station to talk to Michael still has his Labradoodle Bobo you can go and sat. Him up. And as he left that day 5 years ago getting into the backseat of the police car Michael asked one of the officers if they really wanted to talk about a hit and run and at that point he said well actually we'd like to talk to you about some other things too just one other thing it turned out a murder a young woman named Angie died she had been raped and stabbed multiple times in 1906. Michael had visited Idaho in the mid 1990 s. His sisters had gone to college there and he co-produced a short film about people who get obsessed with killers it's called murder a 1000000000 Tommy which you. Start when you enter that. It's made up it's a fictional film but parts of it are pretty gruesome and one killing described in it resembles what happened to Angie and I was sheltered blocking her from the door and step into the lives like. This is one of the things that the police saw online when they were researching me they said look at this he makes short films about men sneaking into houses and murdering young girls how how and when did they get a sample of your d.n.a. Probably 2 to 3 hours maybe into it in walks what turns out to be a Louisiana. State police I mean he was a very large man seemed like at the time he was 7 feet tall and 400 pounds he had mouth swallow 2 latex gloves and he was walking directly towards me right from the door and he's like we're going to take your d.n.a. Now and I backed up and I went whoa whoa wait a minute you know what what is this this is crazy I should I get a lawyer and he said Well do you see this warrant and that means that you have to give your d.n.a. To us right now what the officer said was true like with any search warrant a judge can sign an order giving police the right to collect your d.n.a. If police can explain to that judge why you're a suspect Idaho police had zeroed in on Michael after trying something they'd never done before putting crime scene d.n.a. Collected from Angie's murder through a genial logical database Michael says his dad gave a d.n.a. Sample to that database more than a decade ago the nonprofit organization that owned the database had visited the Mormon Church Michael's dad went to asking people to take part the Mormon faith puts a lot of stock into genealogy because of religious purposes Mormons believe in identifying dead ancestors who were not members of the church and baptizing them so the whole family can be together in the afterlife years after Michael's father gave his sample that Genia logical database was sold to Ancestry dot com Idaho police searched it using a d.n.a. Analysis that's less exact than what's used today they found a close match then they got a warrant to make ancestry give them the name it was Michael's dad they researched the family and honed in on Michael because of his movie and his friends in Idaho basically my father participated in a d.n.a. Sample collection and you know 15 years later I am being pulled in as a suspect in a murderer. What struck me about the s 3 case was that this was using it not a law enforcement database and that struck me as quite no worthy Natalie ram teaches law at the University of Maryland and she learned about Michael story in 2015 this was the 1st known time police had searched a genealogy database instead of the usual criminal databases created for police those law enforcement databases may have problems Natalie says but at least they have supervision state labs have to follow specific procedures database searches might be limited to certain crimes and the criminal database codice holds only d.n.a. Profiles of people who've been arrested or convicted so by law they've already lost some privacy rights by contrast the consumer genetic databases are comprised primarily of people who have decided they're interested in learning more about their d.n.a. What it can tell them about their ancestral origins What am I tell them about their future genetic medical risks etc pretty personal stuff so personal says Natalie that consumer d.n.a. Databases need oversight laws about when and how police can use them in her view it goes back to the basics of the Constitution we have a balance of values between privacy and crime solving between liberty and crime solving after all law enforcement it's all the lots more crimes if they were able to enter anyone's home at any time just because they wanted to we don't allow that . When privacy activists 1st heard Michael Astrue story in 2015 the criticism was quick and severe tough enough that Ancestry dot com cut off public access to the database where police had found his father Natalie says that was the right move but people working in genetic neology say that's wrong consumer d.n.a. Databases should be easily available to police I decided to visit pair upon the company that's built a business off genetic genealogy out so I sit here it's so hot already welcome to d.c. Radio c.e.o. Steve Armin chart shows me around headquarters it's just desks and computers in a bland office building in the d.c. Suburbs they outsource all their lab work by I catches some small iridescent pieces of plastic on display We're going to have these so those are my career a scanner chips what's actually on them so d.n.a. Gets washed over these chips they have probes d.n.a. Sticks to the probes and a computer analyzes it so it's the get the piece of the d.n.a. That you're reading right so whose d.n.a. Is that. I don't know these are expensive chips that are our partner web gave us somebody is d.n.a. Turned into art for display when we sit down in his office to talk Steve argues that police using genetic genealogy to find a suspect is just like looking for clues on Facebook what if a cop he says finds a photo of a suspect with his arm around a victim and he didn't post it his aunt did he didn't give his aunt permission to do that but she's made an association this is Asians are all around us d.n.a. Is another one and police use all those associations all the time where they're doing best occasion as sort of the heart of what they do. So I don't see that this is a lot different than photographs on Facebook the right to privacy can depend on what choices you make on Facebook or with your d.n.a. Steve points out that when you send in a spit sample or you share your d.n.a. Profile on a commercial website to look for relatives you're agreeing to the terms of service as long as people are voluntarily allowing their d.n.a. To be searched I just don't see where the privacy concerns arise I asked Natalie about that argument she says that voluntarily sharing your d.n.a. Profile is different it's true she says the person sending in their own sample may be fine with police sifting through their genetic connections but it's fundamentally untrue with respect to their genetic relatives who may have never used one of these consumer genetic services would never want to and are being implicitly made find a bill through this database through no voluntary conduct of their own people like Michael us 3 after police swab his cheek in the interrogation room they took him home they dropped me back on my side wall and that was it I didn't hear anything from them and on the 33rd day they sent me an e-mail that said hey Mr Rush 3 your d.n.a. Did that matched the sample from the crime scene something you already knew sorry for the inconvenience. Your d.n.a. Will not be used for any other testing purposes think you have a nice day but he knows his d.n.a. Was kept and looked at again and I know that because a year and a half ago the Idaho Falls Police Department sent my sample to this company called parable in labs Idaho police were still looking for Angie's killer last summer they turned to Paragon and genetic genealogy Seymour paragons chief genetic genealogist used the genealogy website Jed match to find the man whose d.n.a. Was at the murder scene that man confessed he's now in prison Michael astri is not but the experience has made him wish he could keep his d.n.a. Private this information could be used for a lot of different purposes wouldn't it be terrible if our d.n.a. Information was used to persecute and prosecute people that didn't agree with them politically we all think that things like that couldn't happen and yet. We will we will see. It's impossible to know where d.n.a. Technology will take us Hollywood has some ideas they are going to find me. But a place where any cell in the heart of your body can be crazy. Welcome to get the but in real life here are some signs of where we already are the trumpet ministration has just announced they're working on plans to take d.n.a. Samples from detained migrants and enter them into codice vastly expanding the database and using it to enforce immigration law they say this complies with the 2005 law until now the Department of Justice had a carve out for border police and last month North Dakota prosecutors filed felony conspiracy charges against a man who protested the Dakota access pipeline 3 years ago they found his d.n.a. On a cigarette butt at the scene and tracked him down because of a past arrest. Then there's China where the government is rounding up a Muslim minority called the weaker center that's that's a remarkable number of a 1000000 Chinese Muslims in camps. Because the Chinese government cracks down on them because of their religion why is that true and b. Why don't we hear more about it so it's absolutely true and they're collecting the d.n.a. Of these individuals by the way as well forcefully and using the potentially American technology to do it concerns about police use of d.n.a. Have even been raised in the Supreme Court 6 years ago the court considered whether it was Ok for police to take d.n.a. Samples from people who are arrested but not convicted the now late Justice Antonin Scalia argued against that this will soon have some extra crimes to be sure. But so with Tricky your d.n.a. Whenever you fly on the phone in a plane surely the t.s.a. Must know the identity of the flying public for that matter some are taking your children's d.n.a. When they start public school Scalia lost the arguments the court ruled that police can collect d.n.a. If you're arrested. Michael us or was never arrested he was only a suspect in the murder of and he dodged but he was so freaked out by his experience with the police he decided to learn as much as he could about genetic genealogy and about the Idaho killing along the way he got drawn into details about Angie her death and her life she was the youngest of 4 children a year out of high school when she was killed an online tribute her family posted remembers how as a teenager Angie would drive with one hand on the wheel and one foot out the window Michael's now friends with Angie's mom Carol Carol always referred to injury as her angel or little angel the man who killed Brian drips lived across the street from her in a small bungalow with a wide front porch and police questioned him along with other neighbors after the murder but they couldn't connect him to the crime and till they tried genetic geneology 2 decades later this makes Michael feel torn do I want murderers and rapists to be caught and prosecuted Yes of course I do but he's also told and his mom about his fears said Carol you know I have to say I'm kind of opposed to this technology it just scares me to think about the world that we are going to war with this. In both Michael less risk case and in the murders of 10 year van Collin Borg and Jay Cooke police normally only get access to the d.n.a. Databases if prior. The companies are willing to share them with law enforcement So what happens when those private companies change. That's next on reveal from the Center for Investigative Reporting n.p.r. . Is a marvelous time for tales that send a shiver down your spine but are they fiction or are they true well on n.p.r. You can trust the news and informed public that is our mission with the stories you hear on Morning Edition we report on the planet and politics not so much treats and Halloween tricks to choose the facts not fables and ghouls choose Morning Edition from n.p.r. . And weekdays from 5 to 9 am right here on 91.5. Programming on 91.5 k. R.c.c. Is supported by Colorado College featuring a block plan course designed through an intensive academic schedule that allows students to plunge into a different subject every 3 weeks more information is online at Colorado College dot edu. From the Center for Investigative Reporting in p r x This is reveal. Today we're looking at genetic genealogy a new crime fighting tool the police are using to solve cases that had gone cold for decades the 1st was the Golden State killed since that or is 18 months ago police use this technique to find suspects in dozens of violent crimes around the country some of those suspects had died already panful pled guilty in which straight to prison but in the case of 10 year van Collin Bork and Jay Cooke that we heard about at the beginning of the show the qs killer pled not guilty and William Talbott became the 1st criminal suspect identified by genetic genealogy to face trial reveals Emily Harris watched it unfold in a courtroom in Everett Washington a few months ago and just a heads up this story as with graphic details. William Talbot's murder trial opens on a mild June morning a Friday friends and family of the victims and reporters filled the public viewing area of the no frills court from. The jurors take seats in 2 rows along one wall from there they can easily see the judge the prosecutor and the alleged murderer Talbot has been in custody for more than a year he hardly moves as prosecutor just in Harlem and lays out the case against him centered on his d.n.a. Evidence in this case will show you that there is only one reasonably possible perpetrator of the person he would target Talbots defense lawyers never contests that his d.n.a. Matched the semen samples recovered from clothing in James van and 10 years body but public defender Rachel Ford tells the jurors that that doesn't prove anything except that he and 10 you had sex they never stopped to consider. That perhaps the person who left was not. We were talking about d.n.a. And take from a murder one. Or even d.n.a. Attained from the blanket that was wrapped around Jay's body. There might be a better stronger inference that that d.n.a. Was really needs from the killer the defense never offers jurors a full alternate story they don't have to prosecutors have to prove their case but as I listen in court I wonder Ok what really happened so later in an interview in Rachel's office I ask I mean who knows 30 years ago if someone lived a lifestyle where they frequently had one night stands with people that they never met again how would you ever be able to come up with a story about how you met someone that was completely insignificant in the trajectory of your life is that what happened was that his lifestyle that we don't really know I mean it was again this is all part of the picture that was impossible to recreate we leave our d.n.a. Everywhere every day. Thank you on. The trial lasts 3 weeks the jury deliberates 3 days we the jury find the defendant William Earl talk with the 2nd guilty of the crime of 1st degree murder as charged in count one. Talbot slumps down at the verdict and whispers. I didn't wait for it for 2. In the end this jury appeared to accept a positive identification of the d.n.a. As a positive identification of the killer Kenya and J's family and friends were thrilled with the verdict it seemed to seal genetic genealogies power at uncovering criminals Talbot's defense team never tried to discredit it in court. I want to know where c.c. Moore who worked on this case and many others thinks genetic genealogy is heading now a few weeks after the trial my reporting partner Kate McMahon catches up with c.c. At a law enforcement conference in Portland Oregon last year everyone however I'm in a brown and gold ballroom at a Red Lion Hotel c.c. Is standing in front of the room with a Powerpoint deck projected on a screen behind her. It's always wonderful to be here and the Pacific Northwest the room is filled with cops and forensic scientists and noteworthy a murder mystery writer all seated classroom style wanting to learn trade secrets from c.c. This is a turning point for crime solving America and I think we've seen that over the last 15 months very clearly I came to this conference thinking I would find a crowd of detectives eager to join the ranks of the more but that wasn't all I found there was also uncertainty it turns out that along with all its wins genetic Genealogy has hit some shaky ground it started with a case of aggravated assault in center Ville Utah late last year a crime. That even police can't call. Freehand Why would somebody attacking innocent 71 year old female mature for your police were anxious to find the attacker so they reached out to the owners of Judge Matsch remember Judge Matsch is the genealogy website where people can compare d.n.a. Profiles from different companies but Jed matches Terms of Service said police could only search the database in cases of rape and murder Utah police asked for an exception Judge Matsch agreed. But the database owners didn't tell their customers they had changed the rules that created a backlash within the genetic genealogy community so Judge Matsch changed their policy again this time swinging the pendulum in the opposite direction it completely cut off access to police unless customers specifically opted in overnight law enforcement lost access to all $1000000.00 or so genetic profiles on Judge Matsch since then people have started opting back in c.z. Explains the current status to her class so we only have about $100000.00 profiles to compare against South which is a huge blow obviously but it doesn't mean that cases are on workable it's just a lot harder after cc's talk I want to know what police think about all this and are you also in law enforcement just would you mind check Anderson is a detective in Oregon he tells me police need to be careful about how they used an addict genealogy so they don't lose it I think once we start using some. Maybe legal but not necessarily savory techniques to get information on there I think that's when I start having problems what comes to mind is an example. I'm not really a fan of the submitting they had on us profiles for that individual site so that would be like a crime scene d.n.a. Is put up on to ancestry but it's not disclosed that it's law enforcement that posted it there yes. I see that can be done I have no idea. But I guarantee you if if it's possible somebody is trying to do it in fact something like this has been done in the very 1st case using genetic genealogy to catch a killer the alleged Golden State killer investigators created an alias to not reveal themselves as law enforcement then they uploaded crime scene d.n.a. Into a genealogy site and found a relative it's you know a mistake or 2 away from overzealous agency before they decide that they're not open to law enforcement by. One person who'd like to see genetic genealogy taken away from police is a Maryland legislator named Charles ignore we need to pump our brakes and look at was going on Charles believes it's wrong for innocent people to be scrutinized by police for no other reason than sharing d.n.a. Found at a crime scene there's no suspicion that law enforcement should have about us. Yet we are now court and this d.n.a. Drag that it's almost as if we have turned the whole concept of innocent until proven guilty on is in fact he's so against it he wouldn't even want to let it help his own family my cousin he was shot and killed in Baltimore. And to this day I don't think the case has been resolved and wouldn't want to find out by going through Judge Matsch and letting the police come through other people's d.n.a. Now. No there's too much constitutional collateral damage to Charles's mistrustful of codice the National Criminal d.n.a. Database because it holds a disproportionate number of minorities d.n.a. And he points to police overreach as why they should not have access to the much more powerful consumer d.n.a. Databases when they're looking into my d.n.a. They're looking at my parents they're looking at my children this past year he tried to get a bill through the Maryland legislature to ban police searches in these databases but the bill failed. Without state or federal rules to regulate when police are allowed to access these databases and when they're not it's been pretty much a free for all with individual companies having the biggest say as we heard Judge Matsch decided to restrict access but another company family tree d.n.a. Is marketing itself as the d.n.a. Service people should use to help catch killers there is more d.n.a. Of bellboy crime scenes than any other evidence if you are one of the millions of people taking a d.n.a. Test your help can provide the missing link now for the 1st time the federal government is stepping in the Justice Department has announced an interim policy on genetic genealogy to be finalized next year it says for example that genetic genealogy can't be a shortcut for cops they need to try other investigative tools 1st and it says d.n.a. Samples used in genetic genealogy must have a clear connection to the crime it can't just be any d.n.a. Found at the crime scene Paragon calls a new policy well reasoned and well researched nothing that would slow or stop business even Professor Natalie Ram who had vised Charles ignore likes parts of it if forensic genetic genealogy is here and here to stay then this policy. Is a very 1st good cut at what a policy should look like but she doesn't like that private companies still get to define what crimes police can use this for and she's against a new power this gives to local prosecutors they can use genetic genealogy to investigate any attempted violent crime not just rape or murder the policy also doesn't address her central concern about the constitutional rights of people who don't put their own d.n.a. In databases we're stumbling backwards into a national or our comprehensive d.n.a. Database we are to at least have a conversation about whether a comprehensive d.n.a. Database is really what the people want if people keep uploading their d.n.a. As fast as they are now scientists predict that in a few years a majority of Americans will be traceable by genetic genealogy. Back in Everett Washington Detective Jim Scharf is still excited about the promise of genetic genealogy he solved the murders of 10 year ban prowling Burke and j. Cook and was planning to retire but this powerful new way of catching criminals is keeping him on the force but I was a little boy all I want to do was help people and put bad guys in jail why would I retire when I got this opportunity I'm not finished. As for the man detectives Scharf arrested for double murder we'll tell but he's appealing his conviction. Our show today was co-produced by Kate McMahon a journalist based in Portland and reveals and we hears Jackie tell the needs edited this week's show thanks to Seattle Public Radio station k u o for their help with travel to a production managers Moon Bay in the hopes of original score and. Designed by the dynamic duo Jay breeziness Jim Briggs if and then Man yo Ruta that help this week from the g a memo stuff our c.e.o. . Met Thompson is our editor and chief executive producers Kevin Sullivan our theme music is about camaraderie lightning support for reveals provided by the even David Logan foundation the John MacArthur Foundation the Jonathan Logan Family Foundation the Ford Foundation Simon's foundation the Democracy Fund and the ethics and Excellence in Journalism foundation reveal is a co-production of the Center for Investigative Reporting and p r x m l let's in and remember there is always more to the story. My dear friend Dr Lori Cohen was an avid listener and supporter of public radio in southern Colorado she made the decision to set aside an important gift to the 91.5 Care c c Legacy Fund Lori's legacy gift helps ensure that care c.c. Remains strong and ready to face challenges in the present and far into the future if you would like information about including 91.5 Care c c in your state plans please visit care c c o r g was sincere thanks from her friend t.k. Programming on 91.5 k. Or c. C. Is supported by Fountain Valley School where students strive to think and connect globally with classmates from around the world grades 9 through 12 a college preparatory school since 1930 visiting days October 14th reservations at F.E.'s dot edu This is southern Colorado's n.p.r. Station Keirsey c.-k. Or c c h d Colorado Springs Q e.c.c. Long hunter Starkville m k w c c f m Woodland Park the go is this American life America and I tell you about 2 police investigations one of them is done so inspiring they well it's like the detectives in it are like detectives on a television show smart and resourceful and great judgment and just police at their very best the other case the same crime lots of the same facts is the opposite goes terribly and the best addition the goes wrong goes wrong in a very unusual way it's like a game of telephone where one misunderstanding begets another misunderstanding begets another until something that is not true spreads to an entire community of people and somehow hardens into the truth.