Yes consulates abroad will have to show they're covered by health insurance or have enough money to cover what the proclamation calls reasonably foreseeable medical costs the requirement does not apply to refugees people applying for asylum or the children of u.s. Citizens according to the White House the new policy supposed to keep immigrants from imposing financial burdens on the American health care system the trumpet ministration has previously announced other policies aimed at limiting immigration by people who use public benefits immigrant rights advocates are challenging those policies in court Dan Charles n.p.r. News. New York City police say for homeless people were beaten to death early this morning David 1st of member station. Reports a suspect is in custody police responded to a 911 call early Saturday reporting an assault in Manhattan's Chinatown neighborhood Deputy Chief Inspector Michael Ball the Sano said they found several homeless men who were likely sleeping when they were attacked with a lead pipe the motive appears to be right now just a random attacks because too many no one was targeted by race age say that of that nature one victim remains in critical condition a 24 year old suspect is in custody he is also believed to be homeless police say authorities continue to search the neighborhood street by street for other possible victims for n.p.r. News I'm David 1st in New York Turkey's president says his country is set to launch an air and ground military operation in Syria N.P.R.'s Peter Kenyon reports the operation will target Kurdish rebels east of the Euphrates River president ridge of type area one tells not he answered ruling party faithful that Turkey has made its concerns known to allies for some time and has shown great patience now he says operation plans have been completed and the necessary orders have been given one has repeatedly called for a safe zone in northern Syria cleared of Syrian Kurdish y p g fighters that Ankara sees as terrorists and Washington views as allies in the fight against Islamic state forces one has said as many as 2000000 Syrian refugees could be relocated from Turkey to the safe zone the comments come as Turkish and u.s. Forces carried out their 3rd joint patrol in northern Syria Peter Kenyon n.p.r. News Istanbul working level nuclear talks between the u.s. And North Korea resumed today after 7 months hiatus and were quickly called off according to Pyongyang's top envoy negotiators had arrived in Sweden for the talks just days after North Korea tested a new missile this is n.p.r. . Paris is home to a new work of art by American modern artist Jeff Koons N.P.R.'s Eleanor Beardsley reports it's a large sculpture dedicated to the victims of the terrorist attacks in the French capital in November of 2015 the 40 foot high statue is of a giant hand squeezing a bouquet of 11 colorful tulips that the unveiling said he created bouquet of tulips to show America's support for France after the November 2015 Paris terrorist attacks that took 130 lives. And. Said it's important to show solidarity the unveiling was also attended by the Paris mayor and victim's family members 80 percent of the proceeds from selling the copyright of the artwork will go to the victims' families statues stands in central Paris not far from the Sun River Eleanor Beardsley n.p.r. News Paris officials in Thailand say 6 wild elephants have died after falling into a waterfall and drowning at a national park they say they believe 5 of the elephants were trying to save a 3 year old calf who had slipped into the falls 2 other elephants were stuck on a cliff nearby such accidents have occurred at the same waterfall in the past it's now temporarily closed. N.p.r. News in Washington support for n.p.r. Comes from n.p.r. Stations other contributors include a new man whose yellow green and red approach to categorizing food is designed to help people make improved choices with the goal of losing weight and keeping it off for good more Ed Newman and. Car. Support for 91.5 k. R.c.c. Comes from our listeners and from local organizations who want to read to discerning audience that values for quality through marketing on 91.5 k. r C c underwriters reach the people most likely to shop in their businesses support their non-profits and buy tickets to their shows to learn more about corporate support call Jeanette at 719-473-4801. This is Planet Money from n.p.r. . There is something about a food competition show you know like Top Chef chopped my personal favorite the Great British Bake Off That to me is managed with visitor like and I think what it is is that they take something that we all have to do every night like a chore and make it into a drama Austin. I personally didn't want a me to have to do a crappy dad and try to do a craft I don't know I just did each of you did your own dishes so good. The other day I got to talk to one of the people who not only knows the tricks that these shows use she invented some of them all right before we start can you just introduce yourself I'm Donny arcana us I'm the executive producer slash showrunner of Top Chef and what was your 1st job on Top Chef I was a production assistant season one you started at the bottom now you're the boss yeah the name and I got to talking about her show it's now headed into its 17th season but honestly pretty soon our conversation just turned into this like therapy slash advice session for producers. We do a lot of shows around here at Planet Money we cover economics every single day business and economics and we. You know it starts to be the same sort of thing not to say it's boring but you know we cover trade we cover the Federal Reserve Ok And what we're looking to talk to you about today is how to take something that may seem mundane like cooking and make it exciting Ok And for you to teach us some of the tricks of food competition shows so that we can use them to spice up our coverage that's Uncle Yeah yeah all right we usually start our show by saying hello welcome to planet money and then our name so would you do that char Hello and welcome to planet money this is Danny Yeah and I'm Nick fountain today on the show we're going to open up the inbox and take listener questions on food and food related things and I got to say there are some pretty weird questions but the Planet Money team is going to do what we do every day we're going to report them out and this show is going to be unlike any we've ever done because the name is going to tell us how to use the methods of a food competition show to make our show shine. Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from c.f.p. C.f.p. Professionals committed to providing holistic financial planning from investment and retirement to taxes and estate planning in the client's best interest let's make a plan dot org All right so what we're going to do today is bring in each of the reporters they already know the listener question they're going to answer what they do not know ahead of time is their challenge they do not know the tricks that I learned from Top Chef executive producer Don mean are keen is that I'm going to spring on them today and the 1st one we talked about is kind of old hat for food competition shows but it's maybe my favorite days secret ingredient is you guys use the surprising really we do to try to. Too much because there are a lot of shows to do that. It's kind of a trope at this point yeah. Each course comes with its own basket of mysteries ingredients. Want to tell you. What what is it about the surprising greedy and that why I think because it's easy it's one of those things where it's like it's very straightforward people can see it and then they can may even do it at home easy simple effective not yet a trope in radio journalism let's do it our 1st question comes from Aleesha out in California and Alicia had heard something about choco pies which are sort of these like would be pies Moon Pie smore things she'd heard that they became part of the underground economy in North Korea and she wanted to know more so I asked Elise you welcome I feel a sense of dread get. You started N.P.R.'s South Korea bureau you've covered North Korea a ton what is going on with chocolate pies in North Korea North Koreans love chocolate by the way Igs I'm going to interrupt you yes before you tell us about chocolate pies Ok Mari who is a producer at the n.p.r. Office in l.a. Where you work should be coming in Ok we asked Kumari to scrounge around the office and find a secret ingredient that you have to work into your segment a can of tuna your I know you always wanted one that is your surprising gradient and you have to figure out a way to work that into your story and chuckle pies go. Ok so chuckle pies are chuckle pies as we call it chuckle pies as they're known in the Korean language figure into geopolitics the politics of North Korea and South Korea because while they were popular in South Korea like this since the 1970 s. They weren't introduced to North Koreans until 2004 what happened in 2004 so they made their way across the border through something called the case song industrial complex this was a joint north south. Special Economic Zone so this is like an industrial zone there is North Korean workers working at South Korean factories making shoes and clothes and whatever yeah it's usually cheap labor right so it's a lot of manufacturing going on and there's just one factory after another out there Ok bring this back to choco pies and order tuna Ok so the reason choko pies come into play is North Korean workers who labor there they weren't actually paid directly by their bosses the South Korean businesses had to pay the North Korean regime so we don't know how much the workers actually made Ok but what South Korean managers could do is pay in snacks and at 1st it was delicious right when they were 1st introduced some 15 years ago it's like Ok this is a fun snack I get a reward but after your 5th choco pie. Not so great right which then created this burgeoning choko pie black market in North Korea because it is not a capitalist country but there is a rather lively black market and so North Korean workers stopped eating the chocolate pies in start selling them in order to make some money on the black market to buy the things that they wanted to I can imagine that the North Korean government did not appreciate these symbols of capitalism seeping into everyday life right plus they feel the black market so in 2014 North Korea banned choko pies and the result is the black market value of chuckle pies jumped from like one u.s. $1.00 to $10.00 u.s. Dollars at one point do you have any sense of like how much say a can of tuna would go for on the black market Oh a look at you we're nearing the end of our segment and you still haven't tied together so bring it home what does this mean for North Korea and the tuna often North Koreans North Korean fisherman defect in order to get into South Korea by boat Ok and I guess. Occasionally they are fishing for tuna you're right but chuckle pies are also a huge factor in a defector story from November of 2017 Ok tell me that story there was a 24 year old North Korean defector who made a daring escape across that border where the little blue huts are that you've probably seen on television much the time he ran through that border in November of 2007 he was shot at by his fellow soldiers 40 times and then eventually rescued by South Korean and u.s. Soldiers on the other side of the border but once he woke up the 1st thing he asked for was a can of tuna we know that he definitely asked for a choko pile we don't know what fish he asked for but it's possible anyway so Ryan the company that makes truck go by sent 100 boxes of them to his hospital room and then is continuing to supply him for life which occupies a lifetime supply of chocolate parts That's right. You nailed your assignment thank you for sneaking that into this very informative interview I would have rather you had a production assistant bring in me instead of a can of tuna but. Ok newest member of the Planet Money team Hi What's your listener question Ok so my listener question is how do you get the best salad value wise at a salad bar comes from Sean diamond in Somerville Massachusetts but before you answer the question I asked him mean how Top Chef might have gone about making this segment. Limitations you know do some challenges on location so they're in a new place that they've never been before new equipment that they never used before you know they have to figure out how they're going to work. Within the space that they've never seen and then kind of work with what's there like let's say it's we take them camping and there's an open flame and they've got a pot that's all they have to work with so they're going to figure out how to work around that so I have this reporter who's answering a question about salad bars interesting do you think we should just make her do all her interviews at the salad bar at rush hour Absolutely. You ready. Yeah I get out here and when you're back tell me what happened. And we're back much like on a cooking show the thing we just talked about a mere seconds ago is already complete lies and what would you get into today so I went out into the world looking for a salad bar where I could answer this question. A here we are in midtown. Expensive salads hundreds of businessmen lining up around the block to buy a $20.00 salad in a plastic box it's so sad 15 straight shot 15 or so I was looking for a salad bar rush hour day getting closer walk a few blocks I'm going to have various found this one it's like a deli chain on Madison Avenue. So I asked the 1st person I met If there was someone I could talk to about the salad bar got pointed to a manager and he was on Ok And he pointed me towards So they do a 3rd. And I say I just like I really don't know why a friend's manager sent me his way well because like if you are a person getting a salad What do you do. By there to be honest you would never advise a lot of the salad. To be honest no. Yes So. Hate salad bars. You. Know either by the last option that. Ok You know I'll buy it but if not I'll just get a burger 1st. He was sort of like standing there just like looking at me like rolling his eyes and shaking his head and smiling like he knows how much they overcharge and I push him a little bit I was like a friend if you had to go to a salad bar what would your strategy and he was basically like my strategy is to walk around the salad bar and open up. Case that has the prepared food and just for pre-made ones the prepared food but those salads are made in another state last night didn't know he was like common misconception look at this food every year reselling it for 69 lb package. You know how much. And little it's the same for it yet say. Ok. Don't avoid the pre-made salads did you have any other tips. No he didn't so it was obviously not going to be that helpful I left a salad bar walked out on the street watch another 10 minutes and I found the salad bar advertising line this is going to say a much fancier salad bar everything is pluming they just put out the buffet and all the foods were really perfectly there were no scoops taken out of them there's also jazz music big lovely soundtrack. So I got there and he met this guy Tony Lee Tony is the guy who buys everything of this out there he knows exactly how much money they're making and losing everything they sell and he was not about to tell me all his secrets but he had one very basic tip that he was willing to share . The people don't get too much of the price and you get this much the right yeah you're making like you're making Zionists. There Yes So at this salad bar you have 3 different kinds of rice 3 big shiny silver tubs and beautiful silver tubs of race you make that kind of rock if you. Look at. What should we be so there is this amazing thing that happens at which is that once a week they get lobster and. No. One has to. Buy it for. $20.00 a pound and they sell it in the salad bar 411498 pound and the people. At the money almost half the money are they saying we bring the people here. And they you know they're banking on people coming in and getting a little bit of lobster and a lot of rice so you're saying we should just take the salmon and a lobster I mean Tony told me get this if you can. Get your fast enough Ok You know I would have never thought that a salad bar was losing money on any single ingredient so the purest form of saving your money at the salad bar is literally just like looking for the thing that costs the most outside the salad bar and filling up your box with only about being grilled Lemon salmon and which I did this is the best deal right this is this is the best deal in the salad bar they told me oh yeah. You. Think you. Have been arrested in your salad bar tips but I bring it home what else did you or I did you really thought this is a great tip I loved it but to be fair it was not the real answer that our listener was looking for so to actually answer the question I came back with a salad. But see if this is the ideal self value wise yes I mean. Ok I am seeing a lot of leafy green Yes get a lot of those pick the fanciest ones basically air a lot of crazy and like I say toppings very light very expensive off the salad bar get a lot not a lot of veggies no water weight and I noticed that you took Tony's advice there is some salmon here there's a lot of the salmon Yes. Thank you so much for answering John's question and thanks for the salad. It's actually for me. Ok good. Welcome back to the studio thank you what is the question that you're going to answer today Ok my question comes from Nate high bar in Hudsonville Michigan and he is in a state where they've got the 10 cent deposit on the candles of the 5 cent and he wanted to know if having that higher deposit made any difference to anything Ok because yours is the last one we're going to make it especially hard oh good. To me told me that sometimes to make good t.v. You've got to take people way out of their comfort zones one of the ways is to think about the food in a different way than it's known for give us a dish that looks like one thing but tastes like another. Thing but tastes like another with that sound like while. I guess you could have the reporter saying it. What genre. I think country probably would be the best you know telling a story. For him or does this make you kind of uncomfortable you look kind of Ugh I mean I literally don't play the guitar for for a while and I am I allowed to like bring in help. Now. Keith you're back you've had a couple days to write a country song about Michigan's 10 cent canned redemption rate and you've brought a friend I found somebody who could play guitar is my friend John the country singer we're just going to was going to do it let's hear. You tuned up your to go already. I was born ready. All right well. I'm going to start by telling you one story. And then I'm going to sing you a different story. The 1st story but I'm just going to tell you starts back in 1976 back then folks in Michigan had themselves a problem the problem was this on the sides of the roads and on the shores of Lake Michigan and well just everywhere you bottles begins and the people rose up and they passed a law that said From now on there's going to be a 10 cent deposit on every bottle and every game that's a true story. And so is this song. It's called The Ballad of the 10 cent men it's about a man in 2016 who decided. I know about some hair down in Kentucky where there is no 10 cent deposit to get the moment to drive them back to Michigan and well he figured that was a pretty good idea. Michigan and they had a crazy dream aluminum pans got a silver is Lehman a diamond piece Well he did Rich her big plan didn't have a hitch. Get out in time go. For a 1000 drove with 10000 can see my husband and then a nickel is always. All going to cost is the gas. Now if you're one if Michigan. Paying $0.10 a can instead of $0.05 a can made a difference Well John I can tell you that it did last year just under 90 percent of cans in Michigan got returned 102030 percent higher than in nickel Akin States. In 1902 in Michigan 100.4 percent of hands not return. And that's hard to do. This song about our arbitrageur that's a real word by the way. By the time they got back recently. The road to college pulled them over said was fast in the stream of hands not me last it's perfect plan just one long cancer against long. For a 1000 bugs drove from Kentucky 10000 and you my good luck with Ben in the goal was always. The now use phase to bridge. The cob and the trials of the drugs bag 10000 cases to be exact the judge said you don't have to go to jail just with 1200 bucks in the mail the judge just what he had to say. Mistake your honor. Read it every day. That's a real quote. Drew from 10000 again you might get lucky then and then a nickel is always a. What's worse than 12 and it. Cost a lot more than the gas and that. This really happened you can Google. It's just so good you guys nailed it thanks. So much thank you Nic John thanks for coming in my pleasure guys helping with credits. With no accent. The accent comes with a job. Worried about the next recession or are. You could write as a blend of money at npr dot org This episode was produced by Nick found that engineered by Isaac Rodriguez They just sound so pretty. And Cynthia Bay to be helped out with producing. Where the folks find your music. In a month or you can just Google but it Bunny is edited by Brian Hirst that Alex Goldmark his the supervising producer Many many thanks to. Keith I'm Nick fountain and I'm Jonathan I'm on this is in p.r. Thanks for listening. Wow tie your original song Under your credits that is a that is pretty tough to follow in the fountain I know you can do it what's happened in how I felt. They were going to meet John Mackey and when he decided to try and turn his business Whole Foods into a national chain he had to make a deal with the proverbial devil which in this case we're venture capitalists food revolution that changed the way Americans shop for groceries stick around because after the break it's how I built this from n.p.r. . Hello this is the a doddle just such a beautiful form of music and it's so difficult to get stations to do jazz these days so you really have to count them Bob Woodruff. So why don't you please make a pledge now. Joe your support for 91.5 k. Or c. C. Programming visit the web page at k. Or c c dot o.-r. G. To make a contribution now many 1.5 has been southern Colorado's n.p.r. Station since 1984 discover more take care c c dot org And follow us on Facebook and Twitter programing on 91.5 k. R.c.c. Is supported by Colorado college offering an experience all education from c.c. Classrooms studios and laboratories at the base of Pike's Peak to access to the nearby mountains and urban centers Colorado College dot edu support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from Alliance for lifetime income educating Americans about annuities and protected lifetime income online and across America and sponsor of the Rolling Stones 29000 u.s. Tour at Alliance for lifetime income dot org. And from c. 3 dot a i c 3 dot a I's software enables organizations to use artificial intelligence at enterprise scale solving previously unsolvable business problems learn more at c 3 dot a I. It's how I build this from n.p.r. I'm Guy Raz If you happen to step into an organic food co-op in the sixty's or seventy's you would probably walk past aisles and aisles of bins full of beans and brown rice and dried fruit there were no big brands no Stonyfield Farms or Nature's Path. And the people who shop in the stores they were among a teeny tiny handful of Americans who even knew what keno or kale were and they were mostly counterculture types hippies back to nature folks my mom and yet all of these people were at the leading edge of a food revolution that would start to sweep the country in the 1990 s. And that revolution was largely propelled by Whole Foods and even though that company inspires pretty strong opinions fanboys and haters there's no denying that it's had a monster sized impact on the way we eat but the person who is partly responsible for this revolution Well here's what John Mackey grew up eating. Today with. Milk pop tarts very picky eaters hamburgers for lunch with nothing on it surely no vegetables on the hamburgers maybe fried chicken for dinner or macaroni and cheese on of a can or a box. This was the era where Stay home moms were so thrilled about the great innovations that could happen like t.v. Dinners you could frozen t.v. Dinners that you could just pop in the oven and voila you'd have a meal for your family. Where were you in life when you 1st discovered food like real food yeah my food consciousness awakening really occurred when I was about 23 and I moved into this vegetarian co-op in Austin called Prada house I was definitely interested in the counterculture I thought I'd meet interesting women as well so I thought it was a I was an adventure I expanded my diet tremendous I did become a vegetarian then I became the food buyer for that co-op and then I had to get a job and I went to work for a small natural food store in Austin called The Good Food Company and while I'd like I was launched on my path I I loved everything about natural organic foods I like cooking I like retailing it and I thought this is something I could really be passionate about Ok at this point in your life you did not like you didn't have a college degree right like you kind of dropped out of college. So when I was about 20 years old I was on track to get a degree in philosophy from the University of Texas but I ran into a course that was required courses I needed to complete I didn't like the course I didn't like the books that I was required to read I didn't like the professor and then one day the battle was over and I. Put in the book I was reading or trying to read through on the ground is I'm not going to read this book and then I just began to read books and take courses that I was interested in so I ended up with a 120 hours of electives that were just courses I was interested in but I took control of my life I began to be authentic and true to myself and that led me into this whole natural foods world. So when you when you see you show up into this in this culture you have a college degree it's I'm assuming it's kind of like a hippie type place yeah it was definitely is a happy place so your parents are super excited and proud of the decisions you've made at this point your life in 23. No my prints were very worried very unhappy the very last conversation I ever had of my mother in 1970 was on her deathbed and she asked me to go back to school and make something of myself and I I was a grocer I was a hippie grocer and she said I know you have a fine mind John why are you wasting it as a grocer go be a doctor or a lawyer or do something with your life that makes a difference and I said I'm doing something in my life that makes a difference he said You're just a grocer and I said Mom grocers are great. So what was it like like what what was it like working at that health food store I loved it I mean the store wasn't very big was only a couple 1000 square feet but the retail business was really fun I mean 1st on surrounded by food which I'm fascinated by with other people when I'm working with you know there are 7 or 8 of us working for the store and they're also equally interested in food they're people that you get to know over time in the small store with you know nothing many customers and you develop relationships with people and How did you even get started. Well that wasn't easy. I make a joke about it now that and entrepreneurs a little bit like a panhandler. Except that they're selling dreams to people and we raised the money because we like most entrepreneurs friends and family we thought we needed $50000.00 to start the store and we can only come up with 45 but we do we can make do with it so with that money you were able to open up the 1st Whole Foods well original stores call safer away I think Safeway but safe earlier today. And we truthfully we were always hoping that maybe Safeway would sue us. Where you get publicist. And all those electives I had in school none of them were business classes no real business experience Renee didn't have any experience she was time we open a store she was 2021 and we opened we opened a store in an old house not even on busy road it was just like we just thought this was a super cool house so we we had a store on the 1st floor a vegetarian storm and we had a vegetarian restaurant on the 2nd floor cafe and then we had an office and we lived on the on the 3rd floor so were you scared I mean you were you were still a kid no I wasn't scared at all you thought this was going to work well when you're when you're 2425 years old you don't have so much to lose I wasn't married I didn't have any kids I in for my case the worst case scenario was I would disappoint a lot of people and. I do something else in life it didn't for me was a grand adventure starting a business is fun it's fun because you're you're hearing gauged you're you're passionate about it and the whole dream just sort of swept us along and who are your customers say for a way where they just like local hippies in Austin which you also have like sort of you know in high society people so one of the joke side I tell is because I run into people all the time that tell me they were original say for a customer and I say. Now if half the people this of the original safer way customers had I been there we never we don't have 5 times the sales ratio having It's kind of like the number of people that went to Woodstock right there. But now they were on they were all young they were people this was the counterculture in part of the counterculture was they wanted their. Stores they didn't want to go to the traditional big supermarkets very alien experience for me I mean so so obviously it sounds like you guys are doing pretty well when did you when did you start thinking about you know expanding Well after about when I began to make money the 2nd year and begin to realize that safer way was too small and I just thought we needed to have a bigger better location by being in a dream about opening a real grocery store where you could do all your shopping there. So we found this location was a sold nightclub on a big strip road in Austin Lamar that it had burned down in the crowd had been a night club so we rented burned out location and so we were able to get that store open However while we were building at one of my friendly competitors that opened up after safer way it was called Clarksville natural gross and I really love the 2 entrepreneurs that were doing that Craig Miller March because I thought these are good guys and they worked really hard to get a good store and I pitched them look we're going to open this natural food supermarket one of the 1st natural received markets anywhere in the world want to do it with us why don't they join you instead of yes letters what exactly showing up and going to so much fun by the way if you don't we're only a mile away from your site your store you're going to mean are you going to have trouble competing with us what you told them that you basically said to them hey this is going to be great let's work together and if you don't we're going to crush you no I didn't say it that way Ok as that and sometimes funny thing is when I told the story that's how it gets and showed it later so I didn't threaten them I mean I said we're only going to be a mile away we're going to have this big store it's going to be it's going to be harder for you to compete why don't we do this together did they have any any of their own conditions yes one of the crags and Marx conditions is we have to make this real store we have to sell meat and we have to sell beer and wine we have to sell coffee we can't just be completely a vegetarian idealistic store we don't want to partner with you. So that was a compromise that was made that turn out to be the right compromise from a business a business decision perspective yeah and we did change the name and this is where and I'm assuming this were Whole Foods is going to come in well we started with the name market we are a market. And then it was like what kind of market or were food market. What kind of food market are we were kind of a natural foods market. One that seems kind of generic in commercials natural market well we're kind of an organic food market Yeah but we don't have just written and it can cost us organic from. Whole Foods and that was it all foods market that's what we sent with our so we came with our name. And the store was an immediate success people sometimes ask how long it takes 1st Whole Foods Market to be successful in the answer to answer is it's until about 3 o'clock in the afternoon on the 1st day. Was it just because of luck or was it just because of they were there was this instant clamoring always an element of luck and success in life you know we won the reasons I wanted to merge with those guys was not only because I like them and thought they could help us but I thought you know what if we can get Clarksville and safer way in here we'll have almost enough sales between the 2 stores to break even and then if we get other customers will never look back and it's just keep keep going like that from that point on no but 9 months after we opened this is now in May of 1901 Austin had the worst flood that I've had in about 100 years. I think it was a Sunday night there been a lot of rain during the weekend but then it just really started to rain on Sunday and I had gone home and was at friend's house having dinner and Rene started to call and said The water is beginning to rise you know what do we do and I said take the ball bags and pile him up in front of the doors. And inside the store because that's where I thought the water would come in through the door and actually they kept the water out till they got up to about 4 feet Wow but that store was not designed to be a submarine and so when the water got up to about 4 feet the sheer weight of the. The water basically broke through the glass of the doors and it came in like a tidal wave Renee ended up swimming out of the store that night. And it was a Sunday and we had 3 days to sales there was in our floor safe so I want to get the cash out of the store I'm sloshed around the back with a flashlight and there are actually people wandering around the store looters were wandering around the store when in the back I went into the office and I opened up the floor safe was able to pull the money out this was a time when we didn't take nobody took credit cards more than half our money back and was could just in cash yeah I mean I think we had about $100000.00 and I'd put it all in the Scrushy pack and I was wandering out the store in this guy comes up to me and says Hey buddy did find anything good in the background. I said I'm not sure it's dark just practice back there probably something back there for you go check it out. And we got the money out and put it in a safe place and and then we thought we were pretty much out of business there were cars floating down the street watching float away. In just a moment after the flood and how John Mackey took Whole Foods from Austin to Boston and eventually to almost every state in America. And you're listening to how I built this from n.p.r. . Are you looking for extra credit submit your questions about government or civics to me the teacher and submit them online at k r c c o r g city state at 630 you know 11 am in 2 pm. Programming on 91.5 k. Or c. C. Is supported by 91.5 k. Or c.c. Members who continue to fund the news music and other quality programming that 91.5 k. Or c.c. Brings to southern Colorado and beyond at k. Or c c dot org Thank you by Colorado College where lifelong learners foster relationships with students and professors working side by side to attain a liberal arts education more about lifelong learning at Colorado College dot edu support for n.p.r. 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I'm Guy Raz So it's the spring of 1901 and John McCain's 1st whole food store is literally underwater it's only been open for 6 months and they had no flood insurance going to picture what the store was like this tidal wave of water come in and when you have a flood like that all the sewage lines back up as well so you have all this bulk food and you know we had meat and fish and sewage and it was just a total horrible mess and it stunk Anyhow we showed up for work and we started cleaning everything up and all those other people I can recognize them but they weren't team members and they were they were customers and customers and neighbors and everybody was pitching in. And by all rights whole fish should have died through that flood and we had to rebuild the storm is going to it's going to cost a lot of money to do that and we just didn't have the money so I thought we were wrong we all thought we were finished. But every one of the stakeholders rallied and that there was a benefit held for the store and the team members they work for free our bank loan is money on my signature which was worthless and that and the investors decided to kick in more cash so we were able to reopen 30 days later that just pulled everybody together we had a really good knighted around that near death experience so did you focus at that point on just getting things in order now I want to open a 2nd store after the flood Oh wow it was like we can't put all of our eggs in a basket that might flow down the river we've got to have a 2nd store the 2nd store didn't it didn't start as well as the 1st store it was up in north Austin and it was in the suburbs kind of away from the the counterculture community of Austin was trying to market to more conventional you know suburban people in it it took a couple of years for that store to actually turn its 1st profit and then we opened a 3rd store in Austin and south Austin no that that turned out to be. Very challenging for us because that store was too close to our original store and and cannibalized it's in if it can only and together we started to lose money and did a like Husni tension with your partners well that led to a big debate because one of the partners Mark he really didn't want to grow because we had this gold mine he just wanted to mine it so the long and short of it was that Mark sold his interest in the company and went into another direction in his life so he was the 1st co-founder to exit actually when they exited slightly before him because you know I broke up and she wanted to travel the world and see other places she got a new new boyfriend and she left and doing a start a business together either brings you closer together or rip your partner in the case of Rene and I ended up working us apart so then it was just Craig and I left and I think a partnership is challenge when it gets into hard times the good times are easy but did you ever did you ever think to yourself maybe maybe they're right maybe we expanded too quickly maybe I made a mistake course I was taking that I mean we're grabbing opening the south Boston store because. I mean almost all the sales that it got came at the expense of of our original store so but I really wanted to grow the business I mean I am not saying I all the challenges were like Oh boy another great challenge is it's hitting us really hard but I've always thought is Ok this is a great lesson for me I can learn something here I am learning something here and I learned a lot from those early failures are those are not really failures but sort of the early trials so if you were looking to expand the business presumably you would have to raise pretty serious money right yes. In 1988 we decided we couldn't grow as fast as we wanted to grow from just our retained profits tapped out all of our friends and family there was no angel network so we needed to raise some venture capital and this was a time when venture capital was not really very cranked up like it is today yeah we hired a banker and we began to try to raise venture capital money and we got rejected again and again and again and we were trying to talk to the venture capitalists and they just couldn't get what we were doing I mean one guy who turned me down he said to me he said you know John I see you've got a very good business here but it looks to me like I looked at all the stores and you're just a bunch of hippies and you're just selling food to other hippies and I don't think that's a very big market. And if it's going to spread further than Then the big companies are going to take a whole lot of interest in it and I don't think you can compete with Safeway now that you compete with these big commercial supermarkets are going to run out of business people still tell me that today I've been hearing it for 40 years but I mean he had a point back then right I mean you're talking about the mid to late eighty's I have of course I'm sure that guy is kicking himself today yeah he biology policy asked me about 10 years later so I was worse so she never made it and he's also when when you start to think about going public yeah but venture capitalist and they don't want to go public they wanted us to do another round of venture financing but I was determined not to do another round of venture financing because. That would have given them control of the company and I just didn't trust the venture guys and your capital store like Hitchhiker's hitchhikers with credit cards. And as long as you take them to where they want to go they will help you pay for the gas. But if you don't take them where they want to go they will try to hijack the car and they will hire a new driver throw you out on the side of the road. So I did not trust the vcs I like tonight in trust and I do not want them to take control of the company so I thought you were going to go public and they were going to get the Hitchhiker's out of the car so it was a little early for Whole Foods to go public personal I was told later on but we did go public back in 1902 and we raised 28 $1000000.00 And so at overnight your company was worth what Overnight we're worth about $100000000.00. So as your like expansion just moved at a clip right through the ninety's and into the 2000 and you know I mean I have to assume that you also were changing how supply chains worked and how people. Produced food and and I guess created new markets for organic food that's certainly true we did I mean. We didn't do it my ourselves obviously but because you have farmers but we created much of the demand for national regaining in the United States our success did and. That created more farmers and more entrepreneurs wanting to farm organically or more manufacturers want to produce organic manufactured goods so we helped we had a huge impact we still did yeah. John you still course live in Austin so I'm assuming that now and again you must pass by the location of that safer way store or do you ever go out of my way to pass by it and what is it what is it today. It's a school. It's it's a school in fun one of my friends started that school and. I got a tour of it a few years ago and the thing that was so odd of course they changed some of it but I can I remembered it so it's like it was yesterday and I could see where the where we had our boat bins and I could see because they left the basic structure of an intact so it was it was a trip down memory row for sure a certain point I mean you when you will not run Whole Foods right I mean you'll move on to retire whatever I mean Ken can the company Whole Foods continue without you know without the charisma without your charisma without your vision I mean you found of the same you are running it. Of course. It can and but I mean I do think when the when the founder and on the last founder laughed I mean Craig was the 2nd to last I think he left almost 20 years ago and a lot of the people I've built a business with besides the founders they're retiring now in their sixty's and they've made a lot of money too over the years through Whole Foods so they'll be no one that ever loves Whole Foods Market as muchas as I love it yeah but building a business is a little bit like having children and watching the children grow up is that you you hope your child is healthy and you hope your child is happy and you hope your child has integrity and does the right thing and I think it's important to have a good founder an entrepreneur but the great businesses continue to live on after the founder moves from Hope Whole Foods in that in that space. John Mackey co-founder and c.e.o. Of Whole Foods and just a few months after this interview 1st Whole Foods was purchased by Amazon in a deal worth nearly $14000000000.00. A bank's listen to the show this week if you want to buy more or listen to previous episodes you can go to how I built this stock npr dot org And if you have a chance please subscribe to our show through i Tunes and let other people know about it you can also write us directly at. Npr dot org Or tweet us that's at how about this show's producer suite. Who also composed the music thanks also to Neiva grandson as Mexican poor and Jeff Rogers this hour of how I built this and Planet Money was produced by Carrie Thompson I'm Guy Raz And you've been listening to how I built this from n.p.r. . Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from ultimate software dedicated to putting people 1st with solutions for h.r. 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This is southern Colorado's n.p.r. Station k. Or c c k or c c h d Colorado Springs e.c.c. Law Hunter k. C.C.'s Starkville m k w c c f m Woodland Park streaming at k. Or c c dot org. This is mostly radio on the host Christopher Kimball brawny Lundy traveled more than 4000 miles all across out the larger collecting stories that are recipes for her book vittles we chat about her favorite dish chili buns forbids the pool room and a distinctly Appalachian flavor that she calls where. It is kind of this accent sour and salty and maybe a little bit of sweet that just elevates whatever you're eating up to another level and it's like good bluegrass tenor singer you know you're listening to everybody else and they're working that straight and narrow and then the tenor comes the end gives you chills down your back and Hwang does that when you eat and. Also coming up more Cholesky talks about everything built from creation myths to ice cream machines We also travel to the birthplace of past I'm Christopher Kimball this is mostly radio from here ex coming up after the news. From n.p.r. News in Washington. The White House is signaling it will not comply with a subpoena from Democratic lawmakers involved in the House impeachment inquiry N.P.R.'s held reports lawmakers are seeking documents related to trump administration contacts with Ukraine this latest subpoena orders Mick Mulvaney the Acting White House chief of staff to turn over the documents by October 18th 3 Democrats who chaired the committee leading the impeachment inquiry signed a letter conveying the subpoena failure to comply they write will constitute evidence of obstruction by Mulvaney and Trump over the summer Trump urged the Ukrainian president to investigate a Democratic presidential candidate while military aid to Ukraine was being withheld Trump says it wasn't political it was about corruption Democrats accused of stonewalling since a whistleblower flagged the phone call White House press secretary Stephanie Grisham says the subpoena changes nothing and Democrats are running a quote kangaroo court Amy Held n.p.r. News Washington Secretary of State. President Trump's assertion that his administration's interest in Ukraine isn't ending corruption is not political. Very said that the direction of the president we were very focused on. Creating space that we could deliver a good relationship with this government for responding to a congressional subpoena for documents related to Ukraine Pompei else says the State Department will follow the law the deadline was yesterday.