91.5. For journalistic ideal information in context an Independent of influence our summit club members make that possible get involved with your gift of $1200.00 or more visit. This is southern Colorado's n.p.r. Station 91.5 k. Or c c c c h d Colorado Springs. Hunter Starkville streaming online a k or c c o r g. Hello welcome to the day from the b.b.c. World Service had me read this morning police investigating the London Bridge attack say they've arrested a number of people in dawn raids several arrests already took place yesterday we'll bring you the latest security is being stepped up in London with more police on the streets and new barriers erected on some bridges on the American pop star ariana grande a Who's show in Britain was hit by a suicide bomber 2 weeks ago has been back on stage again in Manchester to play a huge benefit concert for victims of the attack Also this half hour Saudi Arabia the United Arab Emirates Bahrain and Egypt have all come diplomatic ties with Qatar they say the country is destabilizing the region and I'm Alex Ritson with the business news with a warning to OPEC that Russia's largest oil company is ready to turn on the taps That's all coming up after the latest world news. Hello I'm Gerri Smith with the b.b.c. News police in Britain say they've seized a huge amount of reading material as they investigate the latest terror attack in London the city's police chief created a dig and told the b.b.c. Further arrests have been made in the east of the city we've been moving very very fast and you've heard that we believe we know the identities of these people who carried out this appalling attack very high priority for us obviously it is trying to try to understand whether they were working with anyone else whether anybody else was involved with that with in the planning of this attack and to find out the background to it more armed officers have been deployed to protect the public and new security barriers have been installed overnight on bridges in central London with the latest here's only more quarter past 4 this morning officers from the Mets counter-terrorism command into 2 further addresses they say one in your room and another one in Barking this a number of people have been detained not yet arrested and they're being spoken to the Met say you searches are ongoing or both addresses the b.b.c. Has spoken to some people who witnessed a least one of those raids people heard what they thought were 20 or 30 gunshots they heard a helicopter overhead and they saw white friends apparently taking people away a Canadian woman who was killed in the London attorney has been named by media outlets in Canada as Christine Archibald her family said in a statement that she'd worked in a homeless shelter before moving to Europe to be with her fiance. Technology companies have head back after being accused of providing a safe space for extremist Islamist ideology by the British prime minister to resign may in the wake of the London killings Mrs May said international agreements were needed to regulate cyberspace to prevent planning of attacks by terrorists in response Google said it has already spent hundreds of millions of dollars on tackling the problem Facebook said it worked aggressively to remove such content Saudi Arabia Bahrain the United Arab Emirates and Egypt of all currently diplomatic ties with the Gulf state of cutter accusing it of backing terrorism grant her it has the details what has for weeks been a simmering round between Gulf countries has now erupted into a full blown diplomatic crisis in apparently coordinated announcements Saudi Arabia was the 1st to say that it was cutting links with cutter early on Monday quickly followed by Bahrain the u.a.e. And Egypt the 1st signs of a dispute appeared in May when Qatar said its official news agency website was hacked and a false statement attributed to its ruler appeared online praising Iran and the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah the subsequent hacking of the Twitter account of Bahrain's foreign minister further exacerbated tension news from the b.b.c. . The Russian president Vladimir Putin has said he barely spoke to the former u.s. National security advisor Michael Flynn when they sat together at a dinner in Moscow 18 months ago a widely published photograph of the event has fueled speculation about links between the trump of ministration and Moscow Mr Putin was speaking in an interview with the u.s. Broadcaster n.b.c. Steve Rosenberg has more details from Vladimir Putin this was a mixture of denials and don't know he didn't know he said about the secret communications channel Donald Trump's son in law Jared cushion or allegedly tried to set up with the Russian government no proposal like that of President Putin said came to meet He claimed he had no idea whether Russia's ambassador to Washington had met anyone from the Trump campaign he denied Russia had any kind of relationship in the past with the u.s. President and mocked suggestions that Moscow had collected damaging information on Donald Trump when the businessmen have visited Russia Colombia's largest rebel group Fark has threatened to delay its demobilization saying the government has repeatedly broken the terms of a peace agreement the group's leader is who the warning after the arrest of a fog rebel which went against the conditions of the deal signed by both sides in November officials in Indian administered Kashmir say paramilitary forces have killed 4 gunman who attempted to attack their camp a police spokesman said the attackers threw grenades and fired automatic weapons but were shot dead before they could get through the gates scientists say they they believe a blood test could be used to detect cancer years before symptoms appear research presented at a conference in Chicago has found that mutations for several different types of cancer can be picked up in the bloodstream at an early stage work is now underway to develop a screening test that could be carried out in doctors' surgeries b.b.c. News. Thank you for the news that day would begin with the reaction here in London in the news in the u.k. Is a new working week starts after a weekend in which 7 people were killed and nearly 50 other injured in an attack by 3 men in the London Bridge area just south of the River Thames the attackers were shot dead by police on Saturday night and since then and number of people have been arrested with more raids by police in the last few hours casualties are being treated in a very icy off hospitals Dr Malik Ramadan works at the Royal London Hospital which took 12 of those affected the 12 are all very badly injured so the people who've been stabbed to being stabbed with a clear intent to kill the people who had been hit by one an advantage had been badly injured they were startled to the point where they couldn't speak I'm humbled by the way they behaved as they were startled and extremely patient with us as we did things to them that were often probably relatively painful 6 of them had to go straight to the operating theatre and 6 and subsequently have a presence in exploring I'm saying that people who've gone through an experience more horrific than I can imagine who were not just sitting on trolleys not speaking to us the major trauma system in London has. Been preparing itself for something to happen so doctors I myself in might have been going to bar after night and. That's something we've been thinking about. Tess and we have a lot of people who are completely sober and ready to help the public this morning as people cross London's bridges on their way to work they may see new barriers and more police on the streets the identity of those involved are starting to emerge one of those who died was Chrissy Archibald from Canada Her family released this statement which we voiced we grieve the loss of our beautiful loving daughter and sister she had room in her hearts for everyone to believe strongly that every person was to be valued and respected she lived to this belief working in a shelter of the home. Unless until she moved to Europe to be with her fiance she would have had no understanding of the callous cruelty that caused her death please on a hope by making your community a better place volunteer your time and labor or donate to a homeless shelter tell them Chrissy sent to London's police force is called the Metropolitan Police and its most senior officer is Cressida Dick we've made a number of arrests over the last 2436 hours I think at the moment I'm right in saying we still have 12 people in custody we've carried out searches in a variety of places in east London and we've seized a huge amount of forensic material so we're moving very quickly and we're working closely with the intelligence agencies in that work the British prime minister Theresa May reacted to the attack by saying enough is enough and she had particular criticism for Internet companies we cannot allow this ideology the safe space it needs to breed get that is precisely what the Internet and the big companies that provide Internet based services provide. We need to work with allies democratic governments to reach international agreements that regulate cyberspace to prevent the spread of extremist and terrorism planning and we need to do everything we can at home to reduce the risks of extremism online Well let's talk about online because there are claims in this morning's newspaper that at least one of the attackers had been radicalized by watching videos on You Tube So the question is Should Internet companies be more proactive while Google has said that it has already spent hundreds of millions of dollars in tackling the problem Facebook says it works aggressively to remove such content Mia Bloom is a professor of communication at Georgia State University in the u.s. a Lot of the technology companies companies like Facebook and Twitter and Google have teamed up to. Create this shared industry database and they've been hiring you know thousands of people to remove content and Twitter suspended last year hundreds of thousands of accounts and so I think it's just such an easy blame to say it's social media but I think it also fails to take into account that the vast majority of the most egregious recruitments and the most graphic imagery is that are posted that might actually lead to this radicalization are not on the open platform companies that a prime minister may as thinking about. That's me Bloom a professor of communication at Georgia State University in the u.s. . And Saudi Arabia now the United Arab Emirates Bahrain and Egypt have all cut diplomatic ties with Carter accusing Israel of destabilizing the region we're going to come back to that in a moment because we're going hoping to speak to still to me a writer and columnist based in the United Arab Emirates we're going to bring you more on that story in just a moment let's head to Afghanistan before we get to that story last night was one of the most horrific weeks that on Wednesday 90 people were killed and 451 injured by an explosion in Kabul diplomatic coup says it was one of the largest in Afghanistan since the Taliban was overthrown in 20012 days later at least 7 people were killed and more than 100 injured as a funeral in Kabul so how are people like coping with what's going on the fees past Manassas movement the social transformation based in Kabul known as Lord's about 35 days I've been in power goes out of Ormiston on the last 682650 people injured in 1. 120 people killed in this situation and problem right now is a very serious situation of most of those routes to the center of the secure Glock there's a lot of military personnel out there and there is an ongoing cost is happening because of all of this attacks and the security fears and intelligence failures people out of chalk and trauma because everyone. Just lost a family member or a friend or coworker I think this is the time that the people are saying it's enough been going on for for many many years you know you're living in this constant and violent for a long time and people are fed up actually the last attack in a funeral was was completely insane senseless terrorism happening to a crime or for serious crime or for morning. As well as people trying to convince of our own free will to all the senseless terrorism that I went out yesterday or the day before yesterday Kabul looked very intrigued very soulless but I said No I have to get out we have to grow our business because that's what the terrorists for we want you to to be afraid be or to kill the hope and they want to make you stay at home and then slowly to level one thought just started going back to also and I see that the people are coming out again they are trying to make it like a normal day and I think the people who work are very bitter this form and people really don't have any other option but to continue because this is their country this is their identity simply they would love they were saying no to all of this barbaric attack. Speaking that is. Part of an artist's movement in Kabul known as Arts Law businesses now and Russia's biggest oil company is mourning OPEC that it's ready to turn on the taps if their alliance to prop up oil prices fails Alex Ritson is here Alex this comes from the company's boss indeed So who has given an exclusive interview to The Financial Times newspaper it's on the front page of Igor section the chief executive of Rosneft and this is all of the debate really over whether the agreement between Russia and OPEC to to prop up prices by restricting supply is actually working what he's done here is he's he said that Russia is ready to step up production in the event of a sudden end of the agreement among the major producers to curb output some quick choice quote say well if the question is how OPEC is going to exit from these arrangements abruptly we will also be prepared says Mr Surgeon if something goes wrong we will not let them occupy our markets we will defend ourselves this is strong talk we manage risks we have to consider every trend any trend that may affect our performance we will be ready this is all over this agreement between OPEC. And Russia historically OPEC was actually formed with intention of propping up the oil price it's been historically fairly successful at doing that largely because members of OPEC always when they see the ore price going up start pumping a bit of extra oil on the side but what's prompted this move though well this is all because of the oil production activity in the United States shale produces it used to be that Saudi Arabia was the biggest oil producer in the world and Russia was number 2 Russia has actually been overtaken by the United States because of shale oil so this is actually a message to the United States as well it's a message to the shell produces there if you start stepping in if you start taking market if you pump more than your fair share of oil we are ready we can switch on the taps and so can sound and the timing is important it comes at a time when relations between Saudi Arabia and Russia are actually. Pretty good this is the really interesting thing in years gone by an alliance between Riyadh and Moscow would have been considered unthinkable but these are now the number one and number 3 producers in the world I think what they've realized is irrespective of what OPEC does or show producers do if they act together they've both got a relatively low cost of production Saudi especially so if they act together they can they could make things happen Alex thank you. Listening to news there on the b.b.c. World Service. Shop Let's get the sports headlines with Matthew Kenyon Good morning Amiya Kevin Durant has been widely praised as the man who's making the difference for Golden State Warriors this year in the n.b.a. As they move to 14 wins and no defeats in a stellar postseason which sees them just 2 victories from the overall crown he top scored as they beat reigning champions Cleveland Cavaliers 132-2113 last night to go to nothing up in the final series and raised the prospect to be vigorously contested by Cleveland of course of going through the post season unbeaten there is a long way to go game 3. Is on one state the tennis we've talked about the exits of Governor McGreevey and Venus Williams from running to today Number 3 women seed Simona Halep will try to avoid their fate and secure a place in the quarter finals if she gets a victory of a comma Suarez Navarro also got to men's world number one Andy Murray taking on current channel from the men's stroll a 21 year old single to say John has progressed to the 4th round side Farmar a very will be hoping to join by Novak Djokovic in the quarter finals and in just over half an hour Zambia is under 20 World Cup side will kick off against Italy for a place in the semifinals of the tournament in South Korea will tell you how they get on and focus on Africa Matthew thank you now Saudi Arabia the United Arab Emirates Bahrain and Egypt have all cut diplomatic ties with kata accusing it of destabilizing the region the move appears coordinated and leaves the tiny energy rich Gulf state full but isolated from the region joining us now is so. He's a writer and columnist based in the United Arab Emirates. Thank you very much for joining us good morning and welcome to New Day Were you surprised by this move. Well it was expected because if you had seen the if you see newspapers opinion editorials over the past few days especially since last week it would be that the. President Putin the deal being more brazen they were being more critical and so there was an expectation of an escalation but I don't think that people expected this sudden speed of the to relation of guy Ok And these countries say that customer backs the militant groups including so-called Islamic State and al-Qaeda which Qatar has denied that you think this could escalate into a military standoff. No I yes I think that. That there could be a military standoff if it's a tie if it does not improve immediately I did leave that because Qatar is seen as being a country that's within the family of the of the g.c.c. States it is not an external directed on or seen as an internal threat that. The message of the severance of the ties and the escalation is so it's so so critical at this point that I don't think anything of the table. Remember that maybe the military standoff is on the major issues here that are important most of the truth 90 percent of us food is imported and most of that comes from the land borders Ok So Qatar has serious issues to deal with right now and you tweeted this morning talking about that business angle you tweeted this morning that the council Stock Exchange has fallen obviously business must be very delicate Yes I imagine now a lot of businesses in the u.a.e. Bahrain and Saudi Arabia are withdrawing. And withdrawing their cash from Qatar the stock market has collapsed almost to 7 percent I haven't checked it in a few minutes but it's been because the rating heavy a lot of these companies rely on business of the u.s. So they won't be able to conduct their business cut are ultimately the very very small nations and surrounded by larger economies and they are unable to trade with these economies it will make businesses suffer I think heavily and also did this suggestions of food food shortages is that correct is that what you're hearing. Well if you if you imagine now that many planes if you look at me like manifesto of Hamad International Airport which is the airport. Like have been diverted from all across the world open one has to find ways to reimport to import forward that does not come from the land border with Iraq which is only the other area and also that does not fly over because we're buying all life talk about that fly over Saudi that fly over Egypt that drive over the u.a.e. So if you imagine that we'll have to find other avenues to import it from Ok so it's on our can see me writer and columnist based in the United Arab Emirates talking to me now. More now in sas is terror attack in London police say they've seized a huge amount of forensic material as a fast moving investigation security barriers have been put on bridges in the city to protect people I've been speaking to Harris are iffy chief executive of the quitting foundation accounts extremisms think tank in London so called I asked Islamic states have claimed responsibility although directly involved or is it just about inspire awe inspiring We definitely know that they are part of the ideological inspiration ISIS or Islamic state isn't the only Islamist organization or instance of the south where we have. We have Boko Haram we have al Shabaab and many many others what isn't quite clear yet because the Islamic states are in decline they're retreating in both Syria and Iraq and in Iraq they just have one stronghold left in Mosul and it is why they want to claim everything that happens to make themselves appear bigger than they are well Absolutely that's one of the reasons the other reason is to actually show to their supporters that they still operational in other countries they've advised people well they're actually commanded to people who can't get to Iraq in Syria to join Islamist state to carry out these attacks in their home countries and. These are there to divide people these are there to create fear they believe that they're part of this cosmic battle they actually believe that the good guys and they believe they're living in the end times and right now it's their duty to trying create this polarization so that there's a big war against good and evil and that you know they put other Muslims mainly in the evil because let's not forget the majority of their targets and big sins are the Muslims and eventually the Messiah will come and there will be peace and justice for all that's what they're trying to do and with the ideology that isn't isn't the issue where a balance that comes in the process of radicalization is there is it what motivates them or is it something that they use to justify what they did if we look at the process of radicalization there are 3 clear parts to it everybody's journey is different but there are some patterns the 1st one is that any individual has to have some form grievance whether it's genuine partial or some Sunday even perceived and that can be anything then we have people that will create a worldview a prism if you like that's what we call Islam Islam as opposed to Islam the faith Salaam is a faith practiced by different people in many many different ways and Islam Islam is a distinct political ideology that wants 2 things One is to set up the chutes o.-p. In Islamic states and enforce a particular version of Sharia as state law and the 2nd is brought it round the world that lends that is created in the middle if you like of the 3 pop process where people charismatic recruiters will find these individuals or vice versa and then give them solutions to their problems they'll then create this lens of the other the other rights nation the victim mentality the fact that the say that everybody is complicit in oppression against them and the supremacy narrative so far Icelandic States and groups like this haven't been involved what they do then and these are the the. Actions or people online or offline to the creation this prison will come along and they will chip some of them over the edge and also you know what you have to have so defend yourselves is the only way that Harris or feet from the Quilliam Foundation a counter extremism think tank now in Manchester there was a joyous and celebrate she responds to the recent terror attacks in the u.k. $50000.00 fans gathered for a charity concert and watched by our correspondent Colin Passon. I think I. 'd Robbie Williams leading a huge sing along the $50000.00 crowds joining him on a version of his hit single strong adapted for the occasion the atmosphere defiant almost joyful. Earlier in the day if those outside in the queue told me how the terror attack in London had led to huge family arguments about whether or not they should still come from a family who are not very happy with us driving down today. To put you off anyone who tried to persuade you not to come just postpones. Everybody pretty much for one mother and daughter pairing this was a very significant day 14 year old was that carry on the grandees arena show her mum persuaded her to come to this concert was conscious for covering the night for me was horrendous because I'm a phone tree just something happened from inside the arena and she was that she didn't know what was happening and I was a lot of people getting crushed so when we got our. Own seat was people just crying not knowing whether they were ready for the cold coming here today is slightly ashamed before they were not afraid of everything that was. Taking soo have to be in some ways the law Joy the taking of the. Let me go any further would think of the more than the 1st of many appearances by Ariana Grande day showing amazing composure even when speaking about visiting the mother of a Livia Campbell a victim of the bomb as soon as I met her I started to give her big hurt and she said that. Because I live you wouldn't want to me to cry he and then she told me that all of you would have wanted to hear the hits as. I checked in with mom Liza and daughter Emma they were having a great time as can't say that Sammy said I love ariana and she's doing say wow just everybody so it's scientists and they're all happy in their old crap and they do. Not. Even Ariana Grande these fan base understandably the night's had a heavy pops land Justin Bieber particularly while. Before Coldplay and Ariana Grande they teamed up for a fashion of the away says classic Don't look back and I go. The b.b.c. Reporting this has been you say with county shopping thank you for your company's stay with the b.b.c. For continuing coverage of the London terror attacks and the international. Distribution of the b.b.c. World Service in the us has made possible by American Public Media producer and distributor of award winning public radio content a.p.m. American Public Media with support from invest in Northern Ireland Northern Ireland the European location but the skilled agile workforce focused on results invest and . Johnson coming up on one the 6 Day War 50 years later the warning signs of a finite desert become a dusty road to victory. And raise your hand if the conflict in the Middle East than this war is a good place to start making sense of it what the 6 Day War means today next time on one. And n.p.r. One today at 10 am. Hello I'm Molly Chesterton and after the news I'll be here with crowd science tackling your queries about life Earth and the universe This week's question comes from listener William in the u.k. Who asks us what's the oldest living tree or other organism on earth it seems simple enough but how can you measure age accurately Also if some species can live for thousands of years can anything live forever that's crowd science with me Mani Chesterton after the nice b.b.c. News where Gerry Smit police in Britain say they've seized a huge amount of forensic material as they investigate the latest terror attack in London the city's police chief Cressida Dick told the b.b.c. Inquiries have been moving very fast and further arrests have been made in the east of the city more armed officers have been deployed to protect the public a new security barriers have been installed overnight on bridges in central London technology companies have defended themselves are being accused of providing a safe space for extremist Islamist ideology by Britain following the London attack Google said it had already spent hundreds of millions of dollars on tackling the problem Facebook said it worked aggressively to remove such content Saudi Arabia in the United Arab Emirates and Egypt have all kinds of diplomatic ties with the Gulf state of Qatar accusing it of backing terrorism Qatar said the allegations are untrue President Putin of Russia has told the American broadcaster n.b.c. That he barely spoke to the former u.s. National security advisor Michael Flynn when they said together at a widely publicized dinner in Moscow 18 months ago. The leader of Colombia's fog rebels has threatened to delay the group's demobilisation accusing the government of breaking the terms of the peace deal the warning followed the detention of a fog rebel which went against the conditions of the deal. Officials in Indian administered Kashmir say paramilitary forces have killed 4 gunman who attempted to attack their camp a police spokesman said the attackers threw grenades and fired automatic weapons but were shot dead. Scientists at a conference in Chicago say they've been able to detect cancer in the bloodstream of apparently healthy people years before symptoms appear they're hoping to devise a blood test for cancer within the next few years b.b.c. News. Oh wow that is quite an impressive tree. That it's massive I really need to try and put my arms around this I mean I can't see how many times a hug fits round this tree in one of. These. Several. Takes 8 arms spam's worth of trouble. It's really good. Hello and welcome to crowd science on the b.b.c. World Service on money Chesterton and this is the show that takes your questions about life Earth and the universe the research is hunting for answers all over the world today I'm standing under a magnificent normally looking street in the Royal Botanic Gardens at Kew in London and that's because of a question from listener William in the u.k. . Hello crowd science in the b.b.c. World Service I am William Adams and I'm calling you from London in the u.k. My question for today's program is what is the oldest tree of the living organism on earth and if it is a tree how can we find out its age without cutting it down and counting its wings. Good question thanks William when I think of the oldest living organism my mind instantly goes to the bigger animals mayflies live a day dogs a decade humans can make a 100 if we're lucky so my 1st thought was to talk to says a whales which can live a few 100 years but of course that's being animal centric and when you think a little wider like William has trees are definitely a strong contender for oldest living thing so just how world can a tree get and how on earth can you tell I need an expert in our culture that's how to grow to. And me maybe one who ruins family holidays with his bucket list of famous trees to visit took my family my children they hadn't fledged and I wanted them to see the old history so How impressed were your children by meeting the oldest trees but very impressed actually I think we're just going to see the tallest tree in the world the biggest tree in the world they were on the 3rd leg of the journey and my daughter lost the will to live and it cost me it cost me 3 days retail therapy in Macy's in some from the Cisco that is Tony Kirk I'm head of the arboretum gardens in horticultural services at the 300 acre Royal Botanic Gardens quay Q Just outside London contains the largest and most diverse collection of living plants in the world including over $14000.00 trees some of which are thought to have been around for hundreds of years I met him under one of the older specimens we are standing under a massive suite chestnut tree and that's because our listener William wants to know how can we find out the trees age so how would you go about doing that for this tree Well there are several ways that we can identify the age of the tree 1st of all the most common method is to look at previous record stores to find out on record if that tree was growing there at a set date another one is we look at paintings in artwork to determine if a tree was there when the painting was painted especially if we know the provenance of the painting and all the Ordnance Survey maps quite clearly shows ancient trees particularly in graveyards and especially important trees so we know it's about counting the rings but obviously you've got to cut the tree down in order to do that do all trees even have rings that you can count all the temperature what we call on you all rings so every year they put an annual ring of growth I guess we can measure the annual rings and check them. Without having to cut the tree down we call this dendrochronology and we use a tool called an increment bore and this is a very fine drill that you drill into the tree into the center and you take a core out with that drill and you can quite clearly see the annual rings and then count them back to the center of the tree and clearly work out the age doesn't that hurt the tree well we don't think so we don't think trees feel pain like that and if it's done by someone who knows what they're doing then you shouldn't do any damage the tree and we can plug the hole to prevent it in the entry in the tree course the difficulty comes when you bore into a very big tree you have a long increment or that makes it very hard to insert an extract and it can break off so it's a delicate song and when this delicate art of taking long very thin coals from tree trunks goes wrong it can go horribly wrong. In the 1960 s. There was a classic accident a misfortune if you like where a person a scientist was using an increment board to count the edge of a Bristlecone Pine which are thought to be the oldest trees on earth and he's increment more a block off and these are quite expensive pieces of kit and a very helpful forestry cam along and cut the tree down to get his increment bore out and whilst doing that it allowed them the opportunity to count the annual rings and in doing so they prove that tree was 5000 years old Oh it's getting the saw actually is terrible so much science came out at the opportunity to count the annual rings on that and since then we've found trees in the White Mountains are as old if not older so sometimes it takes an accident to learn a serious question. Ok so we're talking thousands of years I'm getting a sense that there are some really old trees this one that we're standing next to how old is this particular tree. This is a sweet chestnut that was planted around 1700 so what is that 3 just over 300 years old so it's still a baby still a puppy. Still has a long way to go but it's that's nothing in comparison to the old trees the bristlecone pines where we're talking thousands of years old. Bristlecone pines sound like the front runner for the oldest living thing but which one wins the crown. Well there is a team the Rocky Mountain tree ring research group in the USA who have dated some of the oldest trees in the world and they've produced a list the old list like all good science it's regularly revised and checked and in case anything changes we've put a link to the old list on this week's crowd science web page which you can find by going to b.b.c. World Service dot com forward slash crab science. They've found a sacred fig tree in Sri Lanka which is least 2222 years old there's a Patagonian cypress tree in Chile which at 3627 years old is as old as Stonehenge and a bristle kind pine in California named Methuselah comes in at 4850 years old. But and drum roll please the oldest on the list is also a bristlecone pine with a course suggesting it's a whopping 5067 years old. When this tree was a seedling human civilization was pretty uncivilized this time worn tree lived through the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire it predates the ancient Greeks our stock will was a full 1000 years in the future when this tree was born. And those are just the die. A tuple ones there might be older trees out there but some trees are really hard to date because there are no historical records or because there are species that doesn't have clear annual rings or as they age the middle of the trunk dies and rots away leaving a hollow ancient looking but currently on datable tree and for those of you wondering why can't we just see something a bit more modern like radiocarbon dating remember the oldest bits of the tree the middle still has to be present in order to be dated 20 Kirkham seems confident that fancy new technology is going to come along and solve this problem in the future every year there's a new piece of kit that comes out to help us in the our board cultural industry I am sure that sooner or later there will be things that we can use so we're using things like tomography now to look inside trees to look at the k. We use in a machine called a resistor graph that measures the resistance of a drill into a trunk and things like the increment or they're all there to help us do our job as our border cultures and I'm sure that sooner than later there will be something found that will help us today trees so there I am thinking we've answered William's question and it's time for a celebration re cup of tea when Tony throws in this little comment we are just talking about individual trees or what we call 'd 'd clonal trees so trees that constantly regenerate like the quake in Aspen in Utah that could be thousands of years. You're listening to ground science on the b.b.c. World Service taking your questions about life Earth and the universe to research as hunting for answers all over the planet. Today listener William in the u.k. Has asked us what is the oldest living organism on earth and I thought we had it with a 5000 year old Great Basin bristlecone pine but not tiny might I be wrong in assuming that it turns out that my whole concept of what a tree is. Might need rethinking. In fish like National Park in the great state of Utah or in the USA there is a quaking aspen tree called Panda Latin meaning I spread and for good reason it's a clone or clonal tree that means that one seed the size of a flea possibly tens of thousands of years ago has sprung into a single vast rootstock supporting an estimated 50000 tree trunks it's most so from the surface you'd see it as a stand or a forest or hair in the pan or Kong people drive through don't even realize they're in a pound or or your phone calls and people really wondering what is this pound of corn and it's an aspirin stand here on the fish like you have Highway $25.00 goes right through the middle over that forest supervisor Kurt Robbins you can see is video tour of the panda online there's a link to it it b.b.c. World Service dot com slash crowd science just click on this week's program page to get there many plants and funky are clonal in fact a clone or Honey Fungus holds the record at 3.8 kilometers across for largest organism on earth and Panda our tree could well be the heaviest it's officially 43 hectic years which is about north point 43 square kilometers of what looks like Forest one organism a touch smaller than Vatican City twice the size of New York's Grand Central Station same weight as 15000 grand pianos blow our time getting sidetracked this is a programme about age size however gives us a hint of how old panda be his car to get I've heard it estimated by scientists that this stand could be upwards of 80000 years old that's a guess but it's. Gives us an indication that this stand is very old 80000 years old here on crowd science we work on evidence rather than guesses so we tracked down one of the scientists he's been working on pandas age population geneticists Professor Karen Mark from Utah State University who loves the Aspen or has been trees are absolutely gorgeous they have this unnaturally white bark that just stands out especially in the sunlight it actually photosynthesize is which kind of blows your mind wow the trees can be oh well over 100 feet tall they form a canopy which sort of flutters in the wind and makes a nice sound similar to water and in the fall of course they just explode with color to very very beautiful species to work on nice her and that for autumn color change was part of Originally tipped off scientists that they might not be looking at a forest of individual trees but rather a swathe of genetically identical trunks both in the fall in the spring you see differences among genetically distinct individuals or clones some of the clonal boundaries are very apparent there might be one that's rared and one that yellow some of them are less apparent and we're discovering that genetically in the early spring when you have a leaf and that's another time that you can really see some of the Connell boundaries very nicely now time to talk business do we really know how long it took Panday to grow that big we really don't there have been all kinds of different estimates but as you might imagine it's a difficult task to do because their original tree is almost certainly not there all you have left is the sprouts of sprouts of sprouts that happened to persist into current times. This gets when you do when we need to put. It turns out that it's true clonal trees are constantly growing in all directions and regenerating themselves as they do. After a forest fire for example new trunks will sprout a saplings from the root stock and we have no idea where exactly the original seedling landed to go looking any way you try hunting for a flea in the Vatican so it makes it really difficult to estimate you can go in and core a tree encountering like a normal 3 we know it takes a certain amount of time just for a clone to reach that size and that may be hundreds of years on the other hand there have been suggestions that Tendo has been there since times so maybe you know 10000 years or so potentially even more so I've seen a just minutes a pound online that sound extraordinary things like 80000 years old which would make it older than the oldest individual tree we've managed to come across but what you're saying is there's no way of proving that we haven't gotten there yet I should say there may be a way that may hold some promise looking at how many mutations are accumulated over time tell me a little bit more about that what you mean by mutations every time a cell divides there are certain proportion of the d.n.a. Gets changed just a little bit and those mutations happen at a certain rate over time and so you might be able to make some estimates about an age of extreme or of years Ok I get it so a bit like Chinese whispers if you look at what the sentence is after it's been whispered 12 times and how many ways it's different from the original exactly you can guess from looking at the end sentence how long how many people it's been passed 3 yes exactly so that's a good analogy it's exciting to think that we might be able to age clones this way but it's really. A lot more complicated than you might guess because the original stems aren't there we don't have all the me Taishan that ever were so there's no bit even in the root stock that's just the core the just going to stay there if it's significantly all the know that would certainly have turned over by now don't know if it's constantly regenerating can we even actually think if it is old. And well that's a question that's one of the questions and by our biology is about senescence or what happens as things a huge and in terms of a lot of plants and especially clonal plants you could think of them in a way as immortal because they would just keep on regenerating but at some point likely mutations will accumulate to the point where that clone is not going to be biologically functioning very well anymore when crowd science started out trying to answer William's question about what the oldest tree or other living organism was we thought it might be just quite a straightforward case of phoning enough people and going what's the oldest thing you've got and then someone will give us a clear answer and it's bizarre at a certain point you start getting into well biology starts meeting philosophy Empson lewdly as you start questioning the difference between age and aging and also what is an organism and and immortality exactly There's actually one of the reasons I just love working on Aspen in particular but clonal plants they really just sort of blow your mind certainly blowing my mind Karen mentioned the point of aging but I can't help feeling if something can live for thousands of years why stop there why not live forever we need to speak to an expert in aging pivotal but allege reader to Institute of Aging and chronic. Disease at University of Liverpool we should probably start by on picking one of the big questions what exactly is aging human ageing and most mammals is what I would call gradual senescence So there is a gradual process of degeneration so I tend to define aging isn't interested in inevitable age related process of loss of viability and increasing vulnerability but then of course you have all of these different types of aging Did you see across organisms and there were any organisms that appear not to age until yes you do have complex vertebrate species that appear not to age so the classical examples would be some species of turtles and tortoises like the Galapagos tortoise you have a type of salamander which the cave dwelling salamander called the home so you do have species complex species that appear not way to roll Ysaye appear not to wage to they still die is there any immortal species out there all organisms can die so there's no immortal species per se but I do say appear not to age because of course I mean we haven't studied these animals for 500 years you know it's hard enough to get grants for 5 year projects so we have studies that go for decades for example in turtles and they don't show signs of aging did on the generated on shore functional decline but maybe they do age of 500 years we just haven't studied such all animals so we're hunting for the oldest tree or other living thing on earth and you've mentioned a range of different organisms can I push you to tell me which one you reckon is oldest So in terms of trees there's one study of the great bears in Bristol called Pine that's generally recognised as the all verse living tree there are and tart expunge is that I've been estimated to leave about 15000 years but they're very simple animals so those are generally recognised as the oldest living organisms I'm really glad that you mentioned the pay. Point because we've come to the same conclusion our digging had reckoned that and aspens are the oldest thing but hang on the Antarctic sponge that could be 15000 years old do we know that for sure we don't know for sure because of course nobody was there to check them 15000 years ago so these are estimates based on in direct measurements so they are prone to errors however what I would say is that responders in I believe it's in the raw see in tar ticker they grow very very slowly because the temperature is very cold and so they would fit this model of slow growing in very long lifespans so well I wouldn't be sure that only 15000 years they do seem to leave for thousands and thousands of years yes I'd wondered if there was an ancient mysterious creature lurking in the deep sea somewhere Antarctic glass sponges seem to top the list for oldest living animal with some of them predating the invention of the wheel although if you live at the bottom of a nice That and most of civilization will have passed you by and maybe that lack of interaction lack of a hazard or predator has something to do with long life span so if you are small miles or rat or vol that India world is not going to leave more than one year then you have to grow very quickly and have a lot of offspring in order not to become extinct and so there's an evolutionary pressure for deers fast life history of fast growth fast reproduction the short lifespan by contrast if you're a whale or an elephant then you can take more time to grow you can draw bigger you can take longer to reach sexual maturity and then you can have a longer life span and you can reproduce multiple times so as an organism how long you live kind of comes down to your place in the world your ecological niche scientists call it the organisms at the top of the food chain have very few predators so we're likely to lose. Long and passed down that trait 3 generations evolution moves and longevity seems partly down to this but Vatican sized aspen trees aside the longest lived organisms aren't necessarily the biggest It depends where they are what part of the food chain they occupy and even what's in their genes we've done various studies in long lived disease resistant animals in particular in the naked mole rat so to make them all right is this relatively small rodents with slightly smaller than a rat slightly bigger than a mouse and it lives on the ground into a protected environment where the protected from various hazards including predators and so they evolve a fairly long life span they can leap over 30 years which is remarkable when compared to mice and rats that can only leave 3 or 4 years and so we've been studying naked mole rats we found several genes Indias animals related to d.n.a. Damage responses and d.n.a. Repair that could be important or we think may be important for their longevity and disease resistance we've also done studies in the bowhead whale the longest lived mammal It's been estimated to live over 200 years and again we found particular genes related to d.n.a. Repair and cell cycle that have unique changes in the bowhead well that we think are important for their longevity in disease resistance and could studying the genetics of the naked mole rat in the bowhead whale could that help us humans to extend our lives absolutely and ultimately our goal is to develop therapies that help people live longer healthier lives now my view is that different Long Live species evolved different tricks to live longer and to become healthier for longer so if we can discover what the tricks are of other species like whales elephants Galapagos tortoises and so on then we may be able to apply that knowledge to improve human health. And for us to fight human diseases and then extending this out to trees if trees are amongst the longest living things on earth do you think there's anything we could learn from them I think it would be interesting to understand how different trees also have different life spans and what sort of genes are involved I would be a bit more skeptical about whether what we discover in trees can be applied to humans because we are physiologically very different so what is the oldest living organism on earth well it turns out that our listener William speculation about trees was sound the oldest accurately measured organism is indeed a great basin and bristle kind pine Pendejo the quaking aspen has probably been around for a lot longer but I wonder whether constantly regenerating all of yourself is a really neat trick or cheating again slightly and then there's the possibility that Antarctic glass sponges could be up there too but at the moment it seems that until some unbelievably persuasive scientists can extract a 15000 year grant out of someone with a lot of cash we might have to wait for conclusive evidence on that one in the meantime our research is agree that tantalizingly there's something else to hunt for the actual oldest living organism on the planet almost certainly hasn't yet been found. When you think for example of the sponges Indian tar tick tack that seems to leave thousands of years it's very likely that there will be other individuals there would be even older So no I don't think we found all those organism yet. I think there's a lot of hiding out there that we haven't found yet we're still looking for the tallest tree we still haven't found the tallest tree warts because already bored and we believe there are still trees taller than I and I still believe that we'll find trees older than that with you so it's just looking for them and I'm finding that. That's all for this. Crowd science on the b.b.c. World Service today's big question was from me William Adams in the u.k. The program was presented by Molly Chesterton and produced by Gen winter. If you have a question about life will be Universe based email it crowd science at b.b.c. Dot c o u k Thanks for listening. This is the b.b.c. World Service the reason I'm a loser is what we're a big club. 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