To proceed against the chief financial officer of the Chinese technology joined Huawei Mung when Joe was detained in Canada last year at Washington's request she's facing charges which include bank fraud deeply reports Canada's Justice Department said it made its decision to go ahead with extradition proceedings after I Thora and diligent review of the evidence Rice against among one judge it would have been highly unusual for candidates to side otherwise but it has been heavily lent on by China by using said it was actually dissatisfied with the decision to begin the proceedings Mrs Moggs lawyers said their client was disappointed and repeated their view that the u.s. Is using this Mung as a negotiating chip with China over trite Pakistan has freed an Indian fighter pilot who was shot down in captured 2 days ago in the disputed region of Kashmir wing commander of an Indian of octomom was handed over at a border crossing in Punjab the pilot was received by the Indian Air Force's Air Vice Marshal who are not going to be not exactly how they have got it ready to go it was to the point where I was going to run the risk that you're all going to and I was having to clean up for a good number. I have is happy to have a baby on the back the family of an American student who died after being jailed in North Korea have rebuked President Trump for his praise of Kim Jong un also warm be as parents said no excuses could change the fact that Mr Kim and his evil regime were responsible for their son's death Gary Donahue reports up till now the family has steered clear of criticizing President Trump after auto was brought home in 2017 from North Korea in a coma he died shortly afterwards the president's praise for the North Korean leader saying he would take him at his word on the fate of the American student has angered not just the family but a number of Republicans too and other. See parallels with the president all too willing to ignore the information from his own intelligence services and take the assurances from foreign powers such as Russia and Saudi Arabia at face value Mr Trump later tweeted that he does hold North Korea responsible but without mentioning the North Korean leader Spanish prosecutors have filed charges against $27.00 civil servants and others suspected of involvement in one of the biggest corruption scandals in Spanish history they're accused of embezzling tens of millions of dollars from arms sales by the mainly state owned company def x. The case centers on deals with Angola but exports to Cameroon Egypt and Saudi Arabia are also under scrutiny the suspects are alleged to have charged clients 3 times the actual price and hidden the proceeds in offshore accounts b.b.c. News they'll care authorities in the Gaza Strip say $17.00 Palestinians were injured when Israeli soldiers fired at them during a protest at the territories boundary with Israel Palestinian been demonstrating every Friday for any year demanding the right to return to their ancestral homes the latest protest comes one day after the publication of a un report into the deaths last year of nearly $200.00 Palestinian protesters including $35.00 children. The Algerian authorities say more than 50 police officers have been injured in the biggest anti-government protests in the country since the Arab spring more than 100000 people took to the streets of the main cities in largely peaceful demonstrations calling on the ailing president Abdullah sees beautifully not to run for a 5th term in office a member of the opposition or a new generation party Mehdi I'm sorry Danny told the b.b.c. The number of protesters was increasing last week we were talking about 800000 people in the street and this Friday you are talking about. All that and more so 1000000 and a half people on the on the streets so the protest is go in more and the more I shall go from day to day the judge in Brazil has agreed to release from prison the former president Luis and to silver to attend the funeral of his 7 year old grandson the boy died of meningitis will be buried in so Poland Saturday will leave prison for the 1st time since he was sentenced for corruption in April and the Iranian people smuggler has been given an 18 month jail sentence in France for transporting migrants to Britain in small boats the court him a channel port of blowing jailed his 2 Iraqi accomplices for a year the court heard that they did arranged 7 crossings but magistrates rejected prosecutors claims that they were unorganized gang b.b.c. News. Our online world is now less it with terms of things that have fast become part of our social media experience. We've learnt use hashtags memes and gifts with perhaps taking part in a challenge dance the Harlem Shake or guess the color of the dress it was blue or sound. But there are however other more serious aspects of the Internet that we've had to learn to navigate how to discern fake news from the truth for example what you should do when someone online makes a very direct and real threat on your life. This is b.b.c. Trending the program that takes a deep dive into the world of social media I'm nice to see a bit of. It's known on the Internet as trolling it's a challenging concept to define as it's become a catch all term to describe pranks and hoaxes maybe winding someone are all having a mild disagreement but then there's the other end of the spectrum the one that can have serious offline consequences gentleman is a journalist and author who had one such threat made and it led her to write a book about the human fallout of online trolling. She spent 5 years talking to people who cool she asks why they do it and looks at the impact they have online and in the real world she looks at the whole range that starts with pranks or hoaxes but focuses on the very extreme end of trolling the dangerous predator trolls and some of what you're about to hear may well surprise you. It all still said in 2010 when Ginger worked on a story about a gay couple who had a little boy via surrogacy the story I did was really a warm hearted feature about family and I spent time with a little boy and all seemed very normal and quite lovely so I recorded this interview and we chatted and then 3 years later I was on much Hannity leave with my 2nd daughter and the men were arrested in the United States they had main subject of an international investigation by New Zealand us in a strange place and it turned out that they were members or of any paid a following and perpetrating her friend us crimes against him and you had no idea that was happening when you couple saying no it is so he those 2 men didn't have a criminal record at the time that I interviewed them know everything appeared normal nobody suspected anything the place stumbled across some information almost by accident 3 years after arrived on the so when they were arrested investigated charged and convicted I became subject of an orchestrated online Heitkamp aim and campaign was really spurred by conservatives in the us particularly one man he is a conservative blogger and journalist in the United States he wrote these horrendous stuff about me that really was not factually based at all and he included my Twitter handle and that's really where the hatred started pouring in give us a flavor of the kind of things. He was saying about you online he was calling me a propagandist for gay rights movement he was talking about me being a dame when I'm baying competent and he was really saying that I should pay for what I had done that I was this I say intially somehow should have knowing that these 2 men were paid to files and that I somehow was to blame for the abuse of this child and he had thousands of followers on Twitter and he was boasting about thousands of people reading his blog and that army of people really took up the mantle and they were tweeting me that I was a pedophile and I really that I should pay and then I just started to get these torrents of hate and that built over a few days pouring into my accounts and people were writing various blog posts about me that I kept finding and them really light one night I got these tweet that said Your life is all. I realized that my tweets would like hated which means that you could see where our house was on Google Maps you could pinpoint a house and almost at the same time as we got that threat my husband found this photo of our family on a fascist website I wish with all these common trait the same time as we got the death threat was really terrifying and it's hard to describe that sort of cold feet and a so what I can tell you is I really clearly remember the adrenaline kind of pumping through my body and feeling dizzy and then hearing my 2 little girls a sleigh braving in the next room and thinking did I just put my kids' lives in danger because of my job as a journalist and I will say asking these questions like What is the nature of these threats like how real is this right where are these people that are threatening me are they going to come and kill us in real life and actually no one could really tell me the answer to that like I tried to. My workplace about it I tried to talk to the plays I was told to stay off the internet love and this is what cyber hate targets face no one can really help them or nobody wants to help them is the outcome of that for us Giffen I hear a question a lot when people say Oh just ignore it all just take a break from social media to start come from a lack of understanding of what it means to be trolled 100 percent and there's so many things that wrong with that advice 1st of all you can stay off the Internet I mean we need it we need it for connectivity to a social circle we need it for knowledge sharing we need it to raise our voices campaign for issues there are a 1000 ways in which we need the internet like saying so off the roads don't drive a car you can't actually function in modern life without it the 2nd thing is it's victim blaming like why are you telling the victim to change their behavior why are you not trying to figure out how to stop the perpetrator and the fair thing is it doesn't take into account the seriousness or of cyber hate and what the consequences can be it doesn't say online my book links predator trolling so extreme trolling where the person is trying to j real life to the victim psychological physical of so it links that to links it to terrorism at least it's a mistake violence it links it to real life stalking at links that incitement to suicide so you can't just say stay off the Internet it doesn't matter whether you're on the or not a lot of the time someone can still doxie they can still pull all your days hells online and have strange men turn up to your house in memory love the 9 days use idea that the Internet and social media are exist in some kind of fairy land and they're not real and that is just not true. We're going to talk about the people that you spoke to this post a few but let's start with some very basic definitions how do you define trolling I think it's now used in such a wide employed way that we don't actually know what it means so it's essentially used in any circumstance where someone is winding another person up or nailing them and that's offline or on line even the trolls themselves with the really powerful trolls who have big presidents of big trolling syndicates I can't give you a solid definition I realised I was only interested in the extreme end where people were coming to real life Tom and I cold that predator trolling and what I mean by that is that individuals are a using the Internet or digital devices to perpetrate harassment in a sustained way against other individuals where it causes real life and serious psychological real life home physical real life. This is a spectrum of behavior and it does have a very mild and Sim pranks it does have mild disagreements and it carries right up to these other behavior that I'm describing which is predator trolling and I think we need to start differentiating the stuff in our minds and I think one of the things we need to do as well as admit that there's a troll in all of us who has not wanted to be more aggressive than usual more spiteful than usual on the Internet we old j. And the reason that we do it is because of the online disinhibition effect which is just an academic why of saying you can't say the person you can't write their facial keys there isn't really the social consequences of saying something online that they would be if you met someone in the supermarket like no one that met me in the supermarket would say to me I'm going to cut your uterus out and kill your children but they feel able to do it online so we can't point the finger at predator trolls and disconnect ourselves from that. Behavior entirely we old part of the society and we all need to think about behavior online and require social norms to apply so we can exempt ourselves from the stuff I've done we tentatively you scared how did you approach the trolls that you spoke to a new I actually did not understand what I was getting into to be fair like I did not understand how extreme rame predator trolling could pay so imagine since I was a bit naive and I probably would have approached it very differently if I need then what I know now how would you have done it differently I just wasn't security conscious at all really I didn't realize when I went to meet Mock for example who is a really committed and vicious troll and you know he incites people to suicide he's done sim terribly Jamey ging and dangerous things and he's a really threatening individual he does not experience normal human empathy at all I've been in contact with him for 5 years and I can say that she with confidence I put a call out on Twitter wanting to talk to trolls and I just saw you know I want to know these guys are about I'm going to go meet them and I have that idea that a lot of us have erroneous Lee you know if he loses they're alone in their mom's basement they not going to do any They just worries behind the cable that kind of thing and that was so wrong and naive in retrospect but that's what I thought and I was frankly shocked that they seemed to be he talked about operating in these big international syndicates when I was setting out to ger. Write victims to people and they may people have mental health problems I don't know 1000000 years drame that's what I was walking into. Listening to trending on the b.b.c. Wilts. This I'm in the system. Now remember that trending is available as a put cost which is completely free to download subscribe and you can use since past episodes which means you'll never miss one in the future just search for b.b.c. Trending wherever you get your product costs well. This week I spoke to journalist Ginger Coleman who is author of the book cool cold hunting She spent 5 years investigating this dark online world also she herself was dangerously trolled. By Austen just there were any behavioral patterns we can identify in a troll I have to sort of preface this by saying that they are not all the same and nature trolls I had long term relationships with were in any way like really fucked there are some generalisations that wakin me one is the cohort a young white men generally not exclusively but you know these 18 to sort of 55 year olds psychologically the race searches that trolling correlates really strongly with what they call the doc tetrad of personality traits it's Mack of alien ism psychopathic Gnosticism and sadism Gnosticism is the least correlated and sadism is the most correlated so what that means is that trolls want to hurt other people and may take pleasure from it and that is really something every one of the serious trolls that I have ever spoken did of me to regardless of if they were left or right or just predator trolling now they also admitted to sadism The other thing is that really serious trolls have cognitive empathy but not effective empathy it means that trolls understand how to hurt you they understand how to press your bottoms but they don't feel for you they join empathize with the feelings that you might have or say sorry mock noise for example exactly how to hurt you but he doesn't. That he's hiding from you and in fact finds funny what to look for in a person that they identify is a target you know it was actually quite a revelation to me as a cyber hate Haga because what I realized is it's just business for them like they're just looking for your weakest point and if you're fat it's that you're fat if you're black it's that you're black if you're a woman if that you're a woman if you're right it's that you're right for them so it was almost like a light bulb moment for me when I realized that because the trolling stopped her she may after that do trolls have a particular political persuasion in this the stereotype that perhaps the rules slightly right leaning with Islamist tendencies What did you find trolling isn't necessarily correlated with being right or left and in fact there are really severe trolls on by sides and everywhere in between my book does delve into a lot of trolls who associate with the. You know it is a case study in May Well one of the activists in Australia she's very very left wing she calls itself a socialist state and I fake but she's being trolled horrendously by the lift so we need to be really careful here with branding this a left or right behavior and in fact maybe shape who's president or of quiet a right wing trolling seem to get he sat with me specifically he said How come I'm way troll Paypal which costs these daemons but when left wing groups employ the exact same tactics they are not cost in the same lot no one is pulling them up on the same behavior and actually once I said that I really did start to notice everywhere that it was or who shy people that were doing these in terms of their political leanings I mean a lot of the tactics of the same the doc scene is the same getting people fired from their job inciting the pylons they're the same tactics sorry it's a total mistake to say that trolls are right wing East it that it's predominantly male dominated to choose to find female trolls I said. They did there was a case with 3 women were old trolling each other horrendously and they all ended up in court there's another case study with and a stray in Muslim lawyer called Mary of a say she was being trolled horrendously by a woman and that woman was charged and convicted under restraint is criminal code act. Why do you think the social media companies in taking down examples of cyber hate once have been reports and well what is the cost to them it doesn't impact their profit if people Homs and killed as a result of what's happening on their platforms at the moment there is no reason for them to Cape OS safe they say that of course we care about user experience because people wouldn't use our platform homes if you know they didn't feel safe but that's not true because until a happens to you you don't know how much it can harm you if companies like banks or be cold and eyes ations will harming us in the way that social media was harming us governments would be holding them to account and I'm absolutely baffled as to why this isn't happening why governments legislating so that these companies are accountable why aren't they caping us safe there's just no possible way that you can argue that online hatred doesn't cause real life. I am currently undertaking a course of specialized therapy for trauma in journalism because the material was so dark and so many people died in the course of writing the book like there's a case in there where one of the trolls was a terrorist insider to terrorism attack in Ga and Texas and she people was shot there is a case over the astray in television personality Charlotte Dawson who had a lot of men to her. If issues but she was by all accounts a fabulous person they hatred against her was so extreme and almost certainly contributed to her decision to end her life there is the case of a high school shooter who is also a troll he shot a couple of people and shot himself and it goes on and on and on where does the onus lie in terms of responsibility for people who are trolled and for the trolls and sells Polly the onus is with us being our best Heman today bringing our humanity and our empathy to these but also this structure is that capers safe in society need to be there as well which they are currently not on the internet sorry Lauren Foresman has to do its part it has to understand the laws it has to understand the problem and how it strained the problem can be it has to know how to investigate and has to have the tech skills place offices must have the tech skills in the raises to investigate and to prosecute and the judiciary has to understand this is well look I've had cases that I've heard of where these extreme cyber hate cases come before judges and judges say what's Trita what's face I can't even understand what they saw fees so that's the 1st part of it but also missing in this conversation. Companies that kind of missing in action and to maybe says absolutely in explicable like essentially they have been bleating about big sing cyber hate since at least 2006 and they really just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic Well the ship sinks and it makes me think they don't want to fix it because if they wanted to fix it they would if they aren't going to keep us safe online we have to do something about that how do you think this would have paid out if you had written this book and done your research as a man that's an interesting question I was the precise. Match for the trolls so I was everything they hated they hate why women they hate feminize they hate they hate people in mixed race marriages and you know they don't like journalists but I went in there with radical empathy and I think they were totally disarmed I didn't know where that nice bloke Sino would have done so certainly in a strategy a male culture I don't know if they could have gone and done it in the same way and I don't know if the Trolls would have responded in the same way the very things that cruel the trolls to you is almost the very thing that they needed you say that you stayed in touch with Malk even after the book has been published did not at that be such a profound thing that you just said because that's one of the most confusing things about it for me is that they trust me and in the case of someone like maybe shape like my actual husband calls he my troll husband because he talks to me Sorry much me so much and I've become friends or if you even though I mean he's high Manch it's a way of kind of I'll come syndrome where you befriended and you now have a relationship with the very people that Congressman you home you know I really feel that on the world stage at the moment say if you look at politics it's so polarizing and it's just hate versus how I and I just have these strong sense that you cannot solve these problems with more. You have to go in there with your greatest humanity and try to fix this stuff there's only one of them I really can see that I'm to be friends with and that's maybe I would probably prefer not to be in contact with the other days and maybe I would do since my so over time I felt a responsibility to represent them and to represent their views because I feel that you know if you want to solve this problem you have to go right to the root about like if you want to pull away doubt you have to pull it from their very eyes and we're not going to be out of solve this if we don't understand they are very proud of the bull. The trolls that are interviewed in there which I find surprising but what that means is that they feel represented by and and I think that's something that I'm glad about I'm glad that I wasn't so one I am wasn't so lefty feminist I happy that I was able to go in with radical interfaith to the point where I was able to represent their fees and they feel that because that's the start of these things that's a start of unraveling I actually think there's a lot of heart in that book although it's Doc The thing that I lost my faith in isn't humanity it was actually journalists to say because I think the trolls are right about journalism a lot of the time we're not doing our jobs properly we are often propagandists we're not listening properly we're not asking the right questions we're not listening to the right papal we're not even finding the right people at the times like what they'd be so angry if we were listening to them. That's it this week for Trending My thanks to all the engine Liston gentleman to James Beard who recorded and mixed this program and so production manager Shannon McCormack You can use all social media outlets Facebook or Twitter to get in touch or if you want to message me with story ideas or thoughts on our programs and please feel free my Twitter handle is at the nice and Super thanks for listening trending will be back at the same time next week here on the b.b.c. World Service. Distribution of the b.b.c. World Service of the us the supported by fractured by glass photo printing company committed to reducing carbon emissions creating frameless photo decor by printing digital photos directly on glass more at fracture may dot com slash b.b.c. And by Emma the email marketing platform and it helps you create and send personalized email campaigns that reach your audience more and more at my Emma dot com. I'm Robert Siegel during my years in the news business I've seen a lot of improvement in cars better mileage fewer emissions and safety but here's the greatest advance that I've seen yet now your old car can be turned into more of all things considered imagine that donate your car to the station and turn it into the programs you call 186-6789 t.m.c. Take my car please or gay r.c.c. Dot org. For more than a century the world has been trying unsuccessfully to ban the use of chemical weapons in recent years we have evidence that they've been deployed in Syria and in Salzburg in the south of England I'm in the gas a law professor of chemistry and in discovery from the b.b.c. I'm looking at my professions role in the development of these substances join me after the news as I go back to the devastating use of chemicals in World War One b.b.c. News with. The Canadian government says it will allow a u.s. Extradition case to proceed against the chief financial officer of the Chinese technology giant hallway Mung when Joe who was detained in Canada last year faces charges linked to the alleged violation of u.s. Sanctions against Iran. Pakistan has freed an Indian fighter pilot captured on Wednesday when his jet was shot down in the disputed region of Kashmir wing commander of a Nandan via the man was handed over at a border crossing in Punjab the family of an American student who died after being jailed in North Korea have rebuked President Trump for his praise of Kim Jong un or to warm beers parents said no excuses could change the fact that Mr Kim was responsible for their son's death the Algerian authorities say more than 50 police officers have been injured in the biggest anti-government protests in the country since the Arab spring more than 100000 people took to the streets of the main cities in largely peaceful demonstrations calling on the ailing president how beautifully not to run for a 5th term in office in the capital Algiers 45 people were arrested prosecutors in Spain have filed charges against 27 state employees suspected of involvement in a huge corruption scandal they're accused of embezzling tens of millions of dollars from arms sales by the state owned company def x. The health authorities in the Gaza Strip say 17 Palestinians were injured when Israeli soldiers fired at them during a protest at the territory's boundary with Israel the Palestinians have been demonstrating every Friday for nearly a year demanding the right to return to their ancestral homes and a judge in Brazil has agreed to release from prison the former president Luis a Nancy Ola dissimilar to attend the funeral of his 7 year old grandson the boy died of meningitis will be buried in South Paolo on Saturday b.b.c. News. Just before dawn something terrible has happened in a Damascus suburb. It has all the signs of a massive chemical attack. A century on from when chemical for 1st weaponized Syrians from the Damascus suburb of Ghouta have become targets of chemical weapons they bring inflicting off to a victim gasping for breath with pinpointed pupils some have confessions there are new signs of rooms. Hundreds die many of them children victims of the nerve agent sarin a Syria's brutal civil war continues and all this is happening when chemical weapons substances deliberately intended to cause other people harm or even their death or revive an unequivocal or banned under international law. I'm on the ass Ala I teach chemistry University College London and in this in the next edition of discovery from the b.b.c. I want to take a close look at the darker side of my profession and to ask some difficult questions about the part that chemists have played in the development and production of chemical weapons when you're a chemist and I know you're a chemist too you know that there are all sorts of chemicals in the laboratory that can do all sorts of damage to the human body but there's nothing inherent to the profession of chemistry that is malevolent but like many things some parts of chemistry can be used malevolently So where did it all start this attempt to control chemical weapons Ironically some might think today it began with Russia at the end of the 1973 heavily defeated in the Crimea Russia succeeded in getting unanimous agreement at the $899.00 Hague Convention that poison and poison weapons should be banned from or for poison the word itself referring to natural poisons mineral animal types of poison that's belonged to a past it was no longer part of civilized ways of warfare it was something the primitives as they call them at the time would use but alongside a ban on poison weapons Russia had also sought prohibition for did it tear Islamists fixating gases in warfare doctor shop a skull Sanders is a chemical weapons expert based in Switzerland he explains why this proposal was more controversial as fixating gases became synonymous with the production of science industrial production and that actually were a reflection of the advanced state of science and technology. Particularly in Western Europe and emerging in the within the American the Hague discussions give a fascinating glimpse of how potential chemical weapons harmful in asphyxiating gases were viewed 120 years ago this was the legal backdrop at the eve of World War one where one of the most famous chemists of his day Fritz Harbor was about to father a new chapter in the grim history of war my father was 1st and foremost a German Eva Lewis is Fritz harbors daughter 20 years ago she spoke to the b.b.c. About her father I think originally probably science was more important than Germany. But once you come to the 1st well period I think then it became Germany France harbors fame is a chemist derived from his invention of a process to take nitrogen from the air and turn it into ammonia fertilizer that would revolutionize our culture and feed billions but he was also oppression patriot and his science was at the service of the Fatherland that ammonia could be turned into explosives was one thing but for $914.00 he was also at the forefront of preparations for chemical warfare and harbor set out to use the fruits of Germany's enormous chemical industry as new weapons of war is going it's home he had to find a substance that could be used on a large military scale it had to be stable in a range of temperatures it had to disperse in the open air all this had to be tested high and couldn't because most of the tested at the Kaiser Vilhelm Institute he directed in Berlin harbor imagine using a poisonous s $68.00 in gas chlorine widely used in industry it could be compressed in liquefied into Saunders that would deliver vast poems of greenish gas heavier than air it would stick close to ground and cause havoc among the enemy in selecting chlorine keys civilizational chemical we still uses a bleach in a disinfectant Harbor introduce a problem that would echo to the present day the issue of dual or multi use chemicals. But Wonder Stan the impact of chlorine I asked Allister Hey emeritus professor of environmental toxicology from the University of Leeds it is a recognised irritant you know this I'm going to assume in pool for example it will irritate the eyes in the throat it does that generally to the responder to tract and the exact mechanism whereby chlorine will kill someone is really unclear but generally there is a major displacement of oxygen and somebody simply suffocates drowned in this green horrible smelling gas at the end of 1914 the well connected Harbor approach to skeptical military high command with his invention perhaps science in the military could work together for the sake of the Fatherland Harbor convince them that it was worth a try and the fact that the $899.00 Hague Convention explicitly banned the use of harmful and asphyxiated gases was quietly glossed over. Remember at the time British and French and the Germans were in trenches and there really was not much mobility on the front and so harbor considered that the use of something as novelists chlorine unpleasant that he recognized it would be would in fact if used properly assist the German war effort considerably and although the troops hadn't been home for Christmas as they were hoping in 1900 it might happen by 915 but that's not how it played out at 5 pm on the 22nd of April $915.00 the 1st chlorine gas billowed over the Allard lines $5000.00 were killed and $15000.00 injured other attacks followed and British officer Mark Green are told the Imperial War Museum what he saw this you know I mean your tears down the stuff coming out of our lives all of this awful cloud probably of one very. I would say it was more than 20 feet up. Over the course you usually began to choke. The word character whatever you do don't go down usually if you got to the bottom of the tremors you got the full blast of it because it was heavy stuff are going down Bert Newman of the Royal Army Medical Corps witnessed troops fleeing in terrors the gas rolled in you could see on the brain all these Algerians running from this gas Corsica Now you were there also and they got badly gassed and in the end you could see all these forceps laying on the many right Godspeed to pray and thing was that there was no gas mask. After the all clear was sounded British Sapper Lyndon Payne went to see what had happened I could hardly believe my eyes when I looked down along the bank the bank was absolutely covered with bodies of guest men. Must mean over a 1000 of them. Down in the stream a little bit further along the canal bank. The strain there was also for the voters as well the Allies real from the attack and although strategically the German military failed to take advantage of the gap they tore in the Allied lines there was no doubt about harbors new status in Germany he was a national hero he was walking or lockstep with the German military Margo's Solis Yancey his biographer speaking to the b.b.c. In the 1990 s. Ever devised to hear what I call about the came one of the most important men on the cutting edge of science economy and the military science was no longer stuck in the 4 walls of an institute science changed things on a larger scale and that appealed to him lauded within Germany it was within his own home that opposition came Jhumpa skull Sanders the controversy that you have with him is in my mind very much exemplified by his wife Clara him of our he in fact had very great moral doubts about the gas warfare and he really didn't pay any attention according to Hubbard's daughter Ava Klara him of our was implacably opposed to her husband's actions the impact of chlorine gas it was for her a perversion of science. Klara was herself a chemist she was the 1st woman in Germany to obtain a doctorate and to work in the university but after the 1st chlorine attack and the launch of the 2nd bottle of eep or harbor return to Germany at the Kaiser Vogel helm Institute there was a kind of a party to celebrate his achievements and apparently there a major row broke out between him and his wife and a few days later she shot herself because she thought chemical warfare was a perversion of the science so the whole dilemma the whole drama of Did you will use nature inherent in looks a chemicals played out also on the personal level for Harbor and allow us to him advice apparently undaunted by his wife suicide Fritz Harbor went back to the front and lead the next gas attack for the fall and the war had changed perhaps forever the chemical Genie had been released from the bottle in the u.k. The chlorine attack provoked outrage Professor Edward m. Spears a military historian speaking in 1988 initially it was called an atrocious weapon of war it was considered quite underhand and unsporting but once it was used of course then his desire to retaliate and to cause defend against the Allies had been caught completely by surprise in response the cabinet immediately gave the go ahead for the development of gas weapons a special gas brigade was set up and within just 5 months 5 and a half 1000 cylinders of chlorine gas removed to the Western Front the British were playing rapid catch up an experimental chemical warfare establishment was set up at Porton Down near Solsbury This led to a frantic rush to get masks to the men on the battlefield to protect them. Almost immediately there were steps to develop chemical weapons the good circumvent any new protection Margaux solution Hanson Again just click to safety of all it is a spiral was set in motion they tried to develop gases unknown to the enemy so they could break through their masks it was important to analyze the masks of dead enemy soldiers to see what kind of protection had been developed so that new gases would be effective more noxious gases were developed in harbors lab far gene and cyanide were weaponized for the battlefield what phosgene is similar to chlorine in that it is an irritant but unlike chlorine it is more of a deep long irritant and many of the facts of Fosse gene do not become apparent until some hours after exposure and they are exacerbated by exertion so many soldiers were 1st exposed to crawl or eating manage the initial irritant response but then subsequently lungs filled with dirt and they died. Shows Cup but I could feel his death following me. Or was one of thousands of infantry men who had held Germany's ally Austria-Hungary at Bury in the mountains of what is now Slovenia. A 2 am on the 24th of October 917 almost a 1000 poison gas shells were fired at the unprotected Italian troops entrenched in a shallow bowl of Bledsoe near the village of copper a deal it contributed to a catastrophic route and break through by the German troops only me I didn't have a mask I had to stay out of the large gas cloud I thought it was the end of my life I thought if I breathed this I'm done for advancing on the opposite side was even cartridge of the Austria-Hungary an infantry he was stunned by what he saw a couple they saw 4 stars some of them all the soldiers were dead some were found under the ground hiding in caves the gas was spreading low we came across gassed soldiers lying in their trenches as if they were asleep. Chemistry was now being used regularly by both son was in July 917 troops again base deep when Belgium said they saw a shimmering cloud of their feet and a peppery smell in the air they were about to experience the next chemical weapon to come out of harbors lab a so-called gas that would affect the skin as well as the Longs these were the lethal mustards the mustard gas took the British completely by surprise it's delivered as this oily liquid but the troops didn't have any immediate effects and so dismissed it that it was subsequently that they started to develop very painful eyes and many individuals thought they were going blind because they just couldn't open their eyes their eyelids were really just jammed shot you didn't know your gas until you cave out just a lot at a keeper I shot and you had a few. Other to get out of what we call post a huge hole of the bad the shoulder in front of you with about 3 other laws that are trying to attempt here you then got this reddening and heat on the skin because the mustard gas causes the skin damage to individuals develop these huge blisters. And you then have also an effect on the lung the mustard gas and wasn't Tori because of us are guessing as to why the body it's a type of old part of the body that's other there was between the legs it would take it off but I've heard about projects like children and of course remember with mustard gas its advantage was that it would penetrate through the skin as well as being inhaled so there was a double entry and it also meant that there off to protection was not sufficient just with a gas mask you had to have protection from head to toe Professor Alister had a an infantryman Harry wells in the 1st use of mustard gas a deep hole loan left up 210000 people dead with many more injured as the war drew to a close it instilled terror across the battlefield and by September $918.00 the British would produce their own version and that October on the Belgian front launched it on the 16th Bavarian reserve infantry Hitler was corporal but the introduction and deployment of these weapons failed to prevent the defeat of the Fatherland in November Germany surrendered Harbor was devastated and to an enormous controversy the very next year he was awarded the Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his Omonia work becoming a living breathing metaphor for the very dual use weapons he had developed. Jobbers culture Anders harbor has become the historical figureheads of chemical warfare but there was a much broader enterprise behind it there was a general attitude that poisoned warfare the thing that's really pretty brutal is something from the past something from primitive peoples chemical warfare as initiated by Germany was rather the product of a superior mind in other words it was really a reflection on science as a goods for society it required advanced scientific thinking it's a required industrial infrastructure which again was the expression of advanced societies in other words chemical weapons were being presented as something of the future chemical warfare was something superior at a military level this thinking was echoed in the u.k. And in the USA but among the public there was enormous opposition to the fact that these weapons had been used Professor Alister with casually somewhere between one and a quarter and one and a half 1000000 the legacy of chemical weapons was considerable remember of course that there were immediate effects on the battlefield but there were many individuals who had chronic RISP are 3 problems in an eye problems after the 1st World War the legacy of their exposure to these chemical weapons Journal and this meant that many countries were determined that these things should not be used many came home with dreadful injuries as a child in the 1960 s. I remember an elderly neighbor a 1st world war veteran who survived an attack his wheezing and the story of poison gas with the stuff of nightmares these lingering debilitating effects focused public opposition to come. A weapons but at the Washington disarmament conference in 1921 states grappled with a perennial chemical conundrum the diplomats at that meeting bumped into the obstacle of what today we called you were used to knowledge in other words the toxic chemicals that had been used on the battlefield most of them had been synthesize for the 1st time over 100 years earlier so we're dealing with technologies that's all of a sudden found new use during the 1st World War So people at the design women's conference how can they control toxic substances that were key to industrial production and development and so the conference made one of those classic diplomatic compromises chemical weapons were to be banned but only in warfare it was this combined legacy which led countries to sit down and hammer out a treaty called the Geneva Protocol and this was agreed in $1025.00 and this protocol outlawed the use of both biological and chemical weapons but significantly it prohibited 1st use so that's kind of the crucial part that you mustn't start but could one respond Indeed one could and this was why many countries continue to have stocks of chemical weapons their argument was course we'll never start using these things but by Jove or somebody uses them against us we want to be in a position to respond and to respond in kind and so countries built up stocks in the conference room nations still expressed that they. Kept their powder dry and so already in the into war period one has the sense of the deterrence going on in the chemical weapons arena Yes and it continued right through and up to and through the 2nd World War. I know I have but not invent sentimental and scientists I think we're an experiment give us new proposals the discoveries and you will have done a great thing for generating a chilling exportation to scientists to do their bit for the Fatherland in Germany the chemical arms race was on and not just for warfare protecting crops from pests was a huge priority harbor himself developed a formulation of cyanide called Cyclone Bay which well after his death in 1934 would be used not to kill rats but in the gas chambers of the Nazi death camps at buyer the organic chlorine compound d.d.t. Proved to be so astonishingly effective as an insecticide that is Discover Polly Miller would be awarded the Nobel Prize in chemistry in 1948 and at a subsidiary of the chemical conglomerate EEG Farman another chemist Gary Hart schröder stumbled across a new class of insecticides which proved to be in a different legal together his laboratory work was extremely prolific because he systematically started working out all the different theoretical possibilities for organic phosphorous compounds between 136 and 944 and he formulated about 2000 of them Dan proceed as a security consultant with experience in both the Us Army and the u.s. Secret Service Dan a spent months digging in the British National Archives hunting down documents relating to schröder is work in December 936 it touches cyanide to an organophosphates compound and almost immediately realizes he doesn't feel well he is driving home because he has looked on the map as something like a 25 or 30 mile commute home from his lab to the village where he lives and all of a sudden he can't see very well even though it's quite dark out all of a sudden is vision goes very dim. And he left work early because he'd had a headache didn't quite feel well couldn't concentrate any more now ever the scientists She actually looks in the mirror of his car and sees that his pupils of his eyes are pinpoint it ends up taking several weeks off of work he's in the hospital for about 2 weeks but then finally goes back to work to figure out what it is that he has done get out schröder and stumbled across a new class of compound one with unparalleled power nerve agents and these act by blocking a key enzyme Cole Nast raise responsible for resetting the nerves after signals passed the result is blurry vision headaches and salivation tremors eventually convulsions before death and schröder a chemist who don't leave hope to find a pesticide to kill the potato beetle immediately lost control of his discovery says 935 there have been a standing order from Berlin out to German industry any new technology a new discovery of a possible military application need to be sent up to the bureaucracy as soon as possible for evaluation and that included chemicals there was and it's just he was a nice man a good colleague and practicing Christian it must have given him a bad conscience having to give it to the military but it was a military order Dr Vilhelm Klein hons a young eager fireman chemist who was himself drafted in to work on the secret Nazi nerve gas program. But the focus was now on producing enough of this substance renamed Tabone the German word for to blue for testing by the German military scaling up required different skills Dr auto Ambrose a chemist and senior manager with the if Arbonne was given the task of delivering large scale production of Tabu in strict a secret he sets up a facility called Die Hard for which is now in Poland but at the time was in the German province of Silesia only about a kilometer from the order river sets up a plant where they start scaling up production using slave labor produced over $10000.00 tonnes of Tubman at the Dia and for plant by the end of the war but in the meanwhile get hard schröder had continued his search for the optimal insecticide by including an atom of flooring he made something even more deadly they called it the Allies meanwhile had no idea what the Germans had found they were still preparing for traditional gas attacks but if no one actually used chemical weapons in Europe elsewhere was a different matter Italy had used mustard bombs from planes and tanks in its 1935 attack and have a cinema in clear contravention of the Geneva Protocol the Japanese used hydrogen cyanide and mustard 2 years later in their invasion of Manchuria as the 2nd world war unfolded the allies kept stocks of weapons close to the front on the Never-Never So it seems almost incredible that chemical weapons were never used in World War 21 of the enduring questions is why Hitler didn't use his secret nerve agents. Didn't concede explains why auto Ambrose who is the a and Sarah he was absolutely convinced that the Americans had developed a nerve agents and he knew the size and scope of the American Chemical Industry He was convinced that well if we have 12000 tons of Tabun they've at least got that he was so convinced of that as what he told Hitler Hitler put the question to him in 1944 auto Ambrose told Hitler straight to his face that you know what I'm sure the Americans have this I'm on the desk in the next episode of discovery from the b.b.c. I'll be looking at what happened to chemical weapons after the 2nd World War despite treaties to ban them they are still being used. You're listening to the b.b.c. World news on k. Or c c 2 Southern Colorado's n.p.r. Station broadcast on 91.5 f.m. From our studios in Colorado Springs Colorado you can also hear cares you see in the following communities 88.5 f.m. In West Cliff and Gardner 89 point one f.m. In La Hunter 89.9 f.m. 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Battles for survival thousands of women and children have fled to the safety of overcrowded camps controlled by the Kurdish forces even by the standards of Syria the conditions in these camps are just awful and deaf occasion on the open and the completely struggling to do with the numbers there have been arriving in the last few weeks many now want to return to where they came from but will they be welcome back or cost out and treated as pariahs should they be tried as terrorists or treated as young women and mothers who made a serious mistake and should we be wary of trying to deal radicalize individuals who rejected mainstream values for a violent ideology that's the real story from the b.b.c. Coming up after the nice. This is the b.b.c. News Hello I'm anemic e.u. The Canadian government has confirmed it will allow a us extradition case to proceed against the chief financial officer of the Chinese technology giant who are way among When Joe was detained in Canada last year Washington's request she's facing charges which include bank fraud Miss Munger and while away deny the claims Dave Lee has more the next step will be a hearing on Wednesday that's going to be a chance for the dates to be set for the actually just extradition proceedings to begin in the fall.