5.7 f.m. In Canyon City for questions or comments please call 719-473-4801 during regular business hours you can always become a member of k. Or c.c. By going to King or c c dot o r g and making your financial contributions safely on line. Hello I'm Jordan Dunbar and I'm Phoebe Keane and this is the thought coming up today now all we need is an economist he could tell us more about him. I'm an economist who are they talking about and do you recognize the mystery economists also hard truck of all or yourself even if there are no. We do the deal occasion with the means which is. Singular. Unique objects in their photographs and finally what is this. She did into the boat so to find out after the news. I'm Stuart Mackintosh with the b.b.c. News Hello the head of Catalonia is regional government says he'll activate an independent declaration if Madrid take steps to impose direct rule Spain's central government has been pressing colors Pujol to confirm whether Catalonia intends to secede after a disputed referendum earlier this month a deadline set by Madrid for his response is due to run out in 2 hours Tom Barrett is in Barcelona if Catalonia has devolved government does not clearly state that it is not declared independence from Spain then the Spanish government will make an unprecedented move it will for the 1st time ever invoke a broad constitutional powers in reality it will be a list of measures designed to exert direct control over the cattle and authorities from Madrid this is about protecting the Spanish constitution and disciplining an unruly disobedient devolved government which held an illegal referendum earlier this month New figures show that China's economy grew 6.8 percent in the 3rd quarter Robin brand in Beijing has the details as is so often the case the official figures are in line with those forecasts by China's government that is especially helpful at the moment because China's ruling Communist Party is currently meeting here in its 5 year Lee gathering to anoint President Xi Jinping for another term at 6.8 percent growth the economy is expanding slightly slower than at the start of the year but it's above the goal for all of 2017 but China is experiencing a slowdown it's gradual but the economy here is expanding at its smallest rate for a generation the British banking groups h.s.b.c. And Standard Chartered a likely to be investigated over new claims that they may have been used to launder money stolen from the South African state the British Treasury has referred allegations raised by the former cabinet minister Peter Hain to the Serious Fraud Office. From Johannesburg and regarding reports this is a new twist in the giant corruption scandal that's shaking the South African state and damaging the reputations of a number of global companies Lord Hain says whistleblowers have told him that hundreds of millions of pounds have been taken out of South Africa illegally via Hong Kong and Dubai the Treasury has now asked the Serious Fraud Office and other agencies to investigate whether h.s.b.c. Standard Chartered may unwittingly have been used to transfer stolen funds at the center of the allegations of South Africa's President Jacob Zuma and the wealthy business family the group does both deny any wrongdoing scientists in Germany have documented a steep decline in the population of flying insects in less than 30 years the study carried out in $63.00 German nature reserves showed a loss of more than 3 quarters of the total biomass of flying insects including butterflies b.s. And moths world news from the b.b.c. Venezuela's Constituent Assembly has sworn in 18 of its newly elected regional governors in a ceremony that was boycotted by the opposition which has denounced Sunday's vote as fraudulent The majority of the 23 regional governorships were won by supporters of the socialist government. It's 30 years since global stock markets crashed in an event that came to be known as Black Monday here's our economics correspondent Andrew Walker the for the New York's Dow Jones Index was in percentage terms its largest ever one day decline some have put the blame on computerized trading which triggered rapid selling of shares trading systems in New York were overwhelmed at times by the sheer volume of orders which may have aggravated the instability 30 years on some experts fear that stock markets are once again unsustainably high share prices have risen strongly as a result of low interest rate and other policies pursued by many central banks in response to the financial crisis of 10 years ago New Zealand's Labor party will form the country's new government in coalition with the small Nationalist Party New Zealand 1st and the Green Party the announcement has just been made by Winston Peters the New Zealand 1st Leader The announcement follows inconclusive elections nearly a month ago in which neither the Labor Party nor the National Party won enough votes to form a majority government New Zealand 1st has common ground with labor on a number of key policies including limiting immigration and foreign ownership. An appeal court in Tunis is upheld the public indecency conviction of a couple arrested in September for kissing in a car Nessie malarky whose French was also accused of refusing to obey police after the apprehended him and his Tunis in girlfriend the couple were given lighter sentences than the original terms the case prompted widespread outrage on social media and triggered a debate in Tunisia over public morality and the role of the police b.b.c. News. Hello this is the thought show on the b.b.c. World Service with me Jordan Dunbar and with me Phoebe Keene coming up later on the program why do people through their breath we join the she tries to find her inner dolphin. But 1st the Nobel Memorial Prize for economics was awarded to Richard Thaler but who is he and what is a behavioral economist for his Charlotte McDonald with a mystery guest. Hello and welcome to more or less on the b.b.c. World Service I'm Charlotte McDonald This week we're talking about the latest recipient of this year's Nobel Memorial Prize for Economics Richard Thaler He's professor of behavioral science and economics at the Chicago Booth School of Business in the u.s. Now we need is an economist who could tell us more about him. Charlotte I'm an economist at heart Tim Harford Mary Cabot undercover. Deidra you now bad really do you know about that I do know about Favre I've interviewed him I've met him I've read his books I've written about him right well that's that's good enough Rath so well tell tell as he is this person he's a professor at the University of Chicago and he is I suppose the leading behavioral economist in the world and behavioral economics is this. Really an attempt to introduce a sort of psychological realism into economics classical economics as these quite formal perhaps unrealistic assumptions about how humans behave and the behavioral economists say well we could add psychology or maybe just add a bit of common sense and that would make economics work better can you give us an example I mean what is behavioral economics sure so I mean what failures favorite examples is the ball of cashews so he describes having guests over dinner and while you know the main course is cooking in the oven they're having drinks and as you do he puts a large bowl of cashew nuts in front of his guests and they're sitting around having their drinks and their hoovering up the cashews they're just getting to them at a real rate of knots and after a while Taylor realizes they can spoil their appetite so he removes the ball of cashews takes it off to the kitchen where they can't touch it now they're grateful that he's done that they're happy that he's removed the temptation the famous point is this doesn't make any sense in the framework of classical economics because in classical economics if you don't want to eat because you know if you just don't eat because you nuts and if you do want to because you're not you won't be happy that they've been taken away there's no way of saying well it makes sense to remove the cush units and put them in the kitchen but of course common sense says oh yeah of course I totally understand that the thalers inside is not something magical about the shoe nuts there is insight is these seemingly trivial examples about human nature they might turn out to be really important they might help us understand for example how financial markets work or the example that failure is most famous for. They might help us make better pension policy because we're always wanting to save for a pension but then you know when push comes to shove we're tempted to do something short term as to not save So it's these trivial commonsense everyday examples made economically significant and economically relevant you described what he was spouting something that humans do yeah so failure originally started with this list of behavioral anomalies on the blackboard in his office like stupid stuff stupid people do. So. Who phrase that stupid stuff that people do a hand kind of goes against what they think they should want but what they actually end up doing stuff doesn't make any sense in the standard economic paradigm then he takes it to the economics profession in a column called anomalies which is published in The Journal of Economic Perspectives which is a well respected journal where every issue of this journal he points to something that people do that makes no sense in the framework of regular economics and he did banks all the attempts by economists to rationalize this behavior and it shows that it's economically significant so examples for instance there's the December effect if I remember rightly stocks fall in December and they rise again in January but it shouldn't happen in perfect markets that shouldn't happen but failure identifies it and said this is important and there's no straightforward way to explain it so he's pointing to these examples and he saying to economists you have to pay attention to this this this stuff really matters. Ok Well Richard Thaler is that knowledge was an inspiration to governments around the world for instance the u.k. Government set up the behavioral insight unit in 2010 its remit was to develop ways to get more people across the country to engage with government policies that should help them in the long run but maybe perhaps they've been putting off Tim could you tell us a bit more about that so these units were trying to take ideas from behavioral economics and from social psychology to be fair and turn them into policy relevant ideas on how do we persuade people to pay their taxes how can we reform our pension policy how can we get people to insulate the loft Well the way that happened it started with a research paper that failure published with a guy called Cass Sunstein who's a legal scholar named identify this thing they called libertarian paternalism libertarian paternalism is this idea that we keep people's freedom to choose we respect that you know people may know what's best for them. But we also have a paternalistic side so maybe people don't know what's best for the maybe we need to nudge them into doing the right thing so you know I give you the freedom to opt in or opt out of a pension you know whatever you want but maybe I'll not to you to have a pension by making that the default option and then you have to opt out and you have to opt out now in classical economics doesn't make any difference you do either one dimensional You don't want to pension exactly exactly but according to behavior economics the default probably doesn't matter so he introduces this idea with Cass Sunstein of libertarian paternalism and then they give it as much catch a title nudge and they publish a book called knowledge in if I remember rightly about 20072000 it's about 10 years ago and and this book becomes very sexy for politicians and if you recall David Cameron was elected prime minister in 2010 Barack Obama president in 2008 and both of these men were talking about nudge ideas because it seemed like a just a smart way to make a better policy and as they warm elections then failure and some steam became highly policy relevant and these behavioral insight units were set up can you give an example of something that a policy that has come to fruition that we think may have had a successful match fact one of the other things that Thaler says is a very straightforward point is if you want people to do something you make it easy you actually have to think about how things are designed so what happens by default how many boxes do I have to fill in Could some forms already be filled in by default because the government say wants me to fill in my taxes and they already know a lot of stuff about me so maybe all that stuff should be filled in automatically and I can just corrected if there's a problem so you know behavioral economics has been used to redesign tax forms for example in the United States basically to try to make it easier to do the right thing one of the things I was reading about it earlier is that some of his work that he's done helps. Spot some of their naughty tricks that marketers and advertising use is going back to the cash you nuts thing isn't it it's like I don't really want cash but if they're there I'm going to eat them yeah I mean in in the book Nudge fail is talking about you know nudging people to do the right thing but of course you can nudge people to do the wrong thing and advertisers and marketers have known this for a very very long time you can nudge people to smoke you can nudge people to eat fatty salty sugary food these days how they have the term evil nudges and fail also talks about something else he calls it sludge to sludge is basically just noise when your you know you're trying to make that make a clear decision and companies are just confusing you with all kinds of irrelevant information or just making it hard to unsubscribe from something that you want to unsubscribe to so yeah I mean these tricks have been used for a very long time for good and for evil in the private sector Thaler is saying the public sector need to take them seriously as well and ideally one would hope our enlightened governments are going to use nudges. And. Right Way and as a source for good or evil he's government is it for good but it is a powerful force it is a powerful force it's worth paying attention to and it has been a blind spot in classical economics that we've ignored these design factors and the psychological factors and I think failure has he's not the only one but he's done more than anybody else to convince the economic profession to take these behavioral factors Seriously thank you very much Tim Harford for being an expert for us but try My pleasure. So that McDonald presenting there now didn't you get like you enjoy a good selfie I'm going to take that as a compliment and yes you're right because I feel there's quite a well known saying amongst my friends on a selfie or didn't happen say you met someone or something big happened you need to get a photograph you can just tell people. So it doesn't count unless you've got a cell exactly like an old fashioned autograph Yeah no good selfies these days and I used to work up in Radio one which is one of the B.B.C.'s music stations and it's the big pop stations that gets all the big pop stars and film stars coming on and I got to interview a series of really big celebrities and they said you're allowed to take a selfie not against it but think does it make you look professional so I decided I won't be a professional and then will as my contract was coming to an end I realized that I probably wouldn't get a chance again with these people but I was recording the interviews we were filming up but I wasn't on camera so I started doing is popping my head across the camera to fix equipment so that I would appear on camera just ever so slightly at the start so that I could have a screen shot to prove that I did actually meet that person but it ended up looking like I didn't know how to work the camera but I didn't know how to do my job and everyone thought you were rubbish on camera and I don't work there anymore so the lesson is always get a selfie and I did and I think they're really annoying and I would be really embarrassed asking someone famous for a selfie I want to do that ignores famous people if I see them I don't want them to be big headed enough because I've realised they're famous even though everyone else I like to ignore famous is interesting tactic and I'm a professional Yeah yeah. Anyway loves a cheeky self you know I mean and yeah so I'm fashionable and that's because selfies can be quite a serious issue Jordan sorry did you know that a selfie could affect national security let's join the trending team who've been looking into this and checking out the latest trends online. Hello I'm Jonathan Griffin welcome to b.b.c. Trending the program which leaves no stone unturned in its tireless search for the best online stories of the week our team of social media my stories is some build and 1st up for sound. If you got that start them so this week I'll be telling you a tale of 2 films and the debate they've ignited about whether a white gay male filmmaker can do justice to the story of a black transgender one Ok reaching more from you later well yes it's also hit harder than I gather your story is all about a ban on selfies from Russian soldiers Oh yeah everybody loves a selfie right that's right well sometimes I'll be telling you why Russian top brass aren't big selfie fans and why they decided to clamp down on armed forces use of social media intriguing Ok Let's begin I. Will you tell me more about this proposal by the Russian military to ban its soldiers from posting selfies online Oh yes Jonathan the Russian defense ministry apparently has it in for their ubiquitous Sophie and in fact it's just drafted a lot of not just selfies but any social media pays by their professional soldiers there seems a bit harsh So let's start with the obvious question why well in broad terms they say it's for security reasons but more precisely it's because they've had their fingers on a number of occasions where sofas and posts by soldiers have revealed very sensitive information about where their troops are deployed and in particular with regard to the conflicts in Ukraine and Syria Ok let's back up a little bit you mentioned they had their fingers burnt How did that manifest itself where we take Ukraine as an example Russia has maintained since 2014 that none of its troops are in eastern Ukraine soldiers Sophy's and also their social media pages have suggested that they very definitely are at this point I think it's really important you kind of explain how selfies might give away someone's location or sometimes it's very straightforward to have the photos will be labeled with their location in other cases the location is revealed by what's called metadata in the praise message days. It is information which isn't outwardly visible in the photo but is contained in the computer file and other occasions there is other stuff in the background of the photo that gives it away say there are shops or types of plants or road signs now there is a new breed of journalists and research and they specialize in so called open sources that information which is effectively available to anyone who has an internet connection Carole Mikhailov works for the Moscow based conflict intelligence team their job is to track the activities of the Russian military we another terrorist tracked Russians are inside eastern Ukraine the done as going no hands green which I agree but by a Russian led separatist movement aided by Russian irregulars those regulars they both did a lot of photos of themselves on the bar chilling in your crane both of foreigners are themselves in Ukraine incidental group by battles and those be able they. Really care less so with their what they did so that it allowed to identify a specific units and specific areas where they were raiding now killing his team publish their findings and those findings in turn were picked up and followed up on by other news outlets and that caused a considerable amount of embarrassment to the Russian authorities because the evidence they had was pretty convincing Yes and for one thing all the big social networks let people show where they are when they post a selfie or photo and some of these Russian soldiers simply hadn't bothered to switch their geolocation function off and this was all 3 years ago and since then most during them are careful about how and when they post but cure Mikhailov says there are still pretty simple ways of finding out where photos have been taken. Even if there are no idea dads we do the delegation with the means which is. Single out the See think unique object in their photographs and videos and we. Are there progress from that area where there are presumed to be which were both. Sound and many times before the conflict we crossed that with. Satellite imagery like Google Russian counterpart or young if you are like anything turbans in like an Arab an error we can access truth you so it is pretty easy so Carol and his colleagues have been tracking these social media posts since 2014 so how come the Russians or stories are only doing something now when the signs are that they tried very clearly been aware of the problem for some time and the there are now far fewer of these sorts of posts than there were there's still though a steady drip drip of these images and they don't make the same kind of headlines they did 3 years ago and the Russian authorities seem to have decided that now's the time to take some concrete action Ok but will it work I mean can they really in full slease Well that depends who you are many of those who work in this field say it is going to be extremely difficult. Belling cat is agree pretty very similar work to conflicts intelligence team there is open sources to dig beneath the surface of what's actually happening on the ground in conflict zones and probably best known for their investigations into the shooting down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 79 over Ukraine back in 2014 and Aric is a betting catch research and journalist and he isn't convinced the ban will achieve what it's designed to do You can't stop the normal human urge of people to share over share information because again these are 2021 year old kids lot of them you know just like in the u.s. . You know a lot of times you're from a small town a village in middle of nowhere in a rural area and you go you know join the army to the best way for social and economic mobility and just like in the u.s. And with Russia when you're coming from maybe being in poverty or from a very boring rural area and you go and all of a sudden you're doing these exciting things are in Syria and you're in your great Ukraine you're on these millions and millions of dollars of equipment and you're seeing all these corn interesting things obviously you want to share it you know to your friends back home an icicle or whatever so I mean you can pass all the laws you want people are still going to share to a degree that's Eric Taylor from Belling captain he's not alone in thinking that this ban won't stop Russian soldiers social media priests Carol Mikhailov from conflict intelligence team also believes that young soldiers will simply find a way of getting past the ban possibly simply just by disguising their social media with pseudonyms and fake accounts I think there will be a growth of that Brecht is even the ban guns into effect so may become harder but I don't think that there's like stops they are. Dead and directs off from the conflicts intelligence team so the Russian military is banning selfies it sounds like the digital Research's who track soldiers on worry that they'll be out of a job thanks well and now a story about 2 films focusing on the life of Marsha p. Johnson a key figure in the l.g.b. T.q. Movement in the United States as one of the films The Death and Life of Marsha p. Johnson launched on Netflix last week there's been a debate online as to who has the right to tell her story we super son has been looking into this hi Jonathan So this new film was directed by David France and established American filmmaker but when it came out he did online discussion was sparked by an impassioned Instagram post by Raina Gossett a transgender activist and filmmaker she's working on a short narrative film called Happy Birthday Marsha and like March. Johnson she is a black trans woman in her post rain accused director David France of taking her ideas and using her archival research this kind of extraction excavation of black life disabled life poor life trans life is so old and so deeply connected to the violence Marcia had to deal with throughout her life her post received thousands of likes and was shared widely on Twitter and Facebook now David Francis vehemently denied the allegations saying he supports Reno's film has donated money to help produce it to to be clear this is not a case of plagiarism David says he obtained all the archival footage he used legally and the films are very different but many on social media have argued that a white man should not have even made a film about a black transgender woman while others are just pleased that the film has been made at all this is an outrage Ray McGovern has done so much to bring the world's attention to the work of trans people of color including her own thank you so much for making this dork I'm watching it now it is wonderful all that matters is that the story is. There's lots to unpack for yes and it's really a twofold story it's about who has the right to tell the story of an important historical figure but also when someone in a position of privilege and someone from a marginalized community both pursue the same topic who morally should tell the tale that's a really really interesting question so let's start with the subject of these films Marsha p. Johnson who want to Marcia pay it no mind Johnson was a black transgender woman who in the 1960 s. Was an outspoken advocate for lesbian gay bisexual transgender and queer rights most famously she was involved in the 1969 Stonewall riots in New York City and many see these riots which broke out after a police raid at the Stonewall Inn which was a prominent gay bar at the start of the gay and trans rights movement in the United States Yeah I'm not incident and its aftermath but a lot of coverage. The years but I've not heard much about Marshall b. Johnson's woman now and many in the trans community consider Marcia a mother figure of transgender rights but feel that her story and contribution has been overlooked by this mainstream movement and in 1902 she went missing and her body was found in the Hudson River she was just 46 years old police at the time ruled it a suicide but the community suspected her death was a homicide why do they think well they felt that many crimes against their community were not properly investigated by police and in the year Marcia died the anti-violence Project an organization that documents violent crimes against people logged 1500 cases in New York alone and trans people are disproportionately the victims of violent crimes online yet even today g l a d a transgender advocacy group has reported that 2016 was the deadliest year on record for transgender people in the United States and of the $21.00 trans women killed nearly all were trans women of color. It's a sobering statistic there is nothing new it's horrible and we'll hear more about that story after the break to do stay with us we'll be back in a minute. Distribution of the b.b.c. World Service is made possible by American Public Media with support from Cronos with cloud based workforce management solutions designed for organization is to maximize their most valued assets their workforce dot com workforce innovation networks and by Magoo online test prep for the a c t s a t g r e l sat empty TOEFL and practice smart go far and enjoy the ride of dot com You know I drive junky car Hello this is Nina Totenberg when my husband and I were courting he was really scandalized by my very old Mazda 626 and when we were invited to a state dinner at the White House he said that I should rent a fancier car I review of course it's amazing to think that I kissed her and that dumped cards into my favorite programs go to k. R.c.c. Daughter work cheaper details. Hello welcome back to the thought show on the p.c. World Service with me Jordan and me. Coming up how to films about the life and death of a black transsexual woman have caused a fear if online debate. What is some people deliberately restrict theirs and what happens when small children hold their breath intentionally That's all coming up in a moment but 1st. B.b.c. News with Gerry Smit the head of Catalonia is regional government has said he will activate an independence declaration if Spain take steps to impose direct rule Spain's central government has been pressing college Tuesday mall to confirm whether Catalonia intends to secede after a disputed referendum earlier this month a deadline set by Madrid for his response is due to run out shortly. The British banking groups h.s.b.c. And standard charters are likely to be investigated over new claims that they may have unwittingly been used to launder money stolen from the South African state the British finance ministry has referred allegations raised by the former cabinet minister Lord Hain to the Serious Fraud Office New Zealand's Labor party will form the country's new government in coalition with a small Nationalist Party New Zealand 1st and the Green party the Labor leader urges send Arden will who only took up the role in August will be a prime minister at New Zealand 1st has common ground with labor on a number of key policies including limiting immigration and foreign ownership New figures show that China's economy grew 6.8 percent in the 3rd quarter the figures were 9 with expectations observers say the data will add weight to the Chinese government's assertion of good economic management scientists in Germany have documented a steep decline in the population of flying insects in less than 30 years the study carried out in $63.00 German nature reserves showed a loss of more than 3 quarters of the total biomass of flying insects butterflies bees and months is 30 years since the global stock markets crashed in an event that came to be known as Black Monday New York's main end eggs the Dow Jones experienced in percentage terms is a biggest ever drop in a single day some analysts attributed the event to the introduction of computerized trading b.b.c. News. You're listening to the thought show on the b.b.c. World Service I'm Jordan and I'm Phoebe King coming up later in the program which part of your body has the same surface area as a tennis court and what does it have to do anything but 1st let's continue the story the life and death of a block transsexual woman that's caused a fierce online to be it appears the b.b.c. Trending teen. Many of the issues that arise by March a story still really really important to talk about to die yes and we asked David France the director behind the Netflix documentary to tell us about Marsh's contributions to the movement and he described her as a heroic figure whose name has been dropped from the historical narrative after other leaders at the time deemed her too radical She and her good friend Sylvia Vera and other transgender activist were considered not only comrades but heroes and the early sites but early 15173974 the movement was beginning to shift away from the kind of early radical ideas of the early activists toward a more kind of assimilationist strategy in $1073.00 they were ejected from the movement and they were ejected from a recognition within the community of the role that they played clearly Johnson is not like the famous gay rights activist Harvey Milk who said Oscar winning films made about him or never heard her name before now which is surprising given her role in the movement so we've heard there that they would France really thinks that this story needs to be told and he sounds enthusiastic about being the one to tell it so was the controversy coming from that this is where things get a little tricky so David Francis documentary was just released on Netflix if you're not familiar that's a global video streaming service and the film explores the circumstances of Marsh's death through the lens of a trans activist trying to uncover the truth Rayna gossips film hasn't been released yet but based on the trailer we've seen and it's a fictionalized look at the night before the famous Stonewall Inn riots in short these are 2 very different films you mentioned before the accusations involving a convoluted edge. That's where things start to get a bit more complicated Yeah so it looks like the 2 films have different narratives but they both appear to use archival footage and research around marshes life and activism in the 19 $160.00 s. But under u.s. Law that. It's not really a concern neither rain or David only archive footage so they would both have to pay for its use and digitizing footage doesn't mean you then own it it's still just a derivative of the original so we asked 70 for again a media lawyer from New York whether sourcing the material ever means owning it under us law if you've put the physical labor into the work but there have been arguments made by plaintiffs in cases that say we this is this was created by the sweat of my brow and therefore is mine and that has failed uniformly the intellect is electoral property that doesn't account for physical labor the act of changing something or compiling something what is protected is the expression of ideas so in copyright ideas are not protected ball so it's quite clear cut them by someone we know there is no legal can use it and as you've said before it wasn't really plagiarism but more a question of who the historical narrative belongs to that's right and David says that he'd been in visioning his documentary on Marcia for years before he heard about Rayna's film so it appears that these 2 work came about independently but even if Raina has no legal right to the sweat of her brow work the question that some are asking on social media has been Does David have a right to tell the story at all how much tourist space time energy do why I gave him a neat that's Lourdes Hunter founder of the trans women of color collective a grassroots trans rights organization based in Washington d.c. While she described the film itself as amazing and compelling she said that instead of making his own film David France should have used his position as an established filmmaker and a white man to promote the work of someone in the black trans community someone like Raina got it. Now David Franz is himself an openly gay man does the fact he's a member of the l g b t Q movement change anything for Lourdes and for many of those who've spoken out from the trans community it really doesn't these stories stories about the actors women should be told by doctors Yeah there are places in the movement for everyone people who have access to resources and access to social capital access to finances and their role in the movement is to leverage that act so that the people who are supposed to be telling these stories who have done their research and done the work who actually live in the. Noise do can be elevated that of course is not a universal feeling on line and for his part David France told me that he felt in creating this documentary he was a toning for his community's past mistakes for me to not revisit that story of that which I knew so much already would align me with the people who were eliminating their narratives from our history. I think of Marsha and Sylvia as being 2 of the most historically important figures in the l.g.b. T.q. Movement and as such they belong they belong really to all of us not just in that queer community but to all of us as humans to know that these 2 individuals through their political engagements have impacted human life not just in New York but around the world their legacies our human legacies and their narratives that have informed our narratives what's Rainer herself had to say about the discussion her posts started I've been in touch with her and while she initially told me she might answer some of my questions by e-mail by the time of this recording she actually hasn't done so she did write an op ed for Teen Vogue this week and said quote Too often people with resources who. Already have a platform become the ones to tell the stories of those at the margins rather than people who themselves belong to these communities David France however thinks that everyone not just members of the transgender community have a right to tell these stories so that they reach as many people as possible Here's what he told us about the idea of restricting who can tell these stories well that might mean that their stories not get made by as many people as possible. And they should be they are heroic individuals whose lives and contributions we should all know about and if you begin to make a list of people who can't tell those stories what you're doing is removing those stories from history after all this the questions remain Is it possible to claim ownership of a historical narrative and who has the right to tell stories from marginalized communities. Certainly something to think about Thanks Rita. That's all for now my thanks to reach 2 percent and will you spoil the stories this week. To pursue the speaking to Jonathan Griffin there annoy inhale. Exhale. For most of us breathing is instinctive but could you hold your breath for 22 minutes. So I exhale. Almost a full exhale and then I inhale with my nose. Then I used to throw in the critical bones. Amount of fall and then I pack with my tongue for. 5555. 5. Hiram stick Severinsen and in 2012 I held my breath for 22 minutes. Breathing it's a vital life force. We do it all we die it's our most natural reflex we take about 16 breaths a minute that's around $23000.00 a day so why would anyone consciously restrict it and what happens to our minds and bodies when we do. This is the b.b.c. World Service I'm Lucy ash and on this edition of the why factor why do people hold their breath. Stick Severinsen his tourne and muscular with a clean shaven head and piercing blue eyes a Danish marine biologist in his early forty's he's been called the human dolphin and the man who doesn't breed. Here has just sawed a hole in a frozen lake in Greenland before plunging into the icy depths wearing nothing more than his skimpy swimming trunks he holds the record for the longest free dive under ice 72 meters or 236 feet. But how does he survive so long without air rule number one Don't think about time he tells me or the end result otherwise your ego gets in the way. It's very important to understand that you have to change the frequency in the brain. You're also learn to changes into what I call the you're in a dolphin You know you tap into this mammalian dive response and it's a beautiful reflects the Mammalian Diving Reflex that's when blood is diverted from the limbs to the vital organs of the heart brain and lungs in the world of mammals it allows seals and other warm blooded aquatic animals to conserve oxygen for the 1st 6 months of life humans do this too which is why small babies find swimming so easy when their heads are submerged in water they naturally hold their breath. You change your brain frequency from Bader from everyday life thinking boring analytical skeptical thinking into a beautiful alpha state of playfulness and never everything's become soft and it becomes in gauging it becomes meaningful and time dissolves. Toby Helm an I'm a test consultant at University College London Hospital every time you take a breath in you're lowering the pressure inside your chest by using your inspirit 3 muscles the main one being the diaphragm and then that draws air in which is oxygen rich and then through process is a cellular level there's an exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide and then as you breathe out that carbon dioxide is taken away and that's the exhaust gas from what we call aerobic respiration which is the process by which our cells get their energy somebody tell me that if you stretch John Long that they could cover a tennis court is that right or is that just to have been met no no that's very true the the area of the lungs is huge because the way that oxygen gets into the bloodstream is through diffusion and that has to happen over a very short distance so the distance between the air that you breathe in and your blood vessels is around 1250th of the width of a human hair. We're talking. Like steak as a child I loved picking up bottle tops from the bottom of the local swimming pool but I could never collect that many before popping back up for air. So can I train myself to hold my breath or longer. I've gone in search of my own in a dolphin in a small pool in London with Liv Phillips from the British free diving association she's the reigning u.k. Free diving champion for the 10th time. When the Tokyo press will if this new. Middle. East mood to. Night. Live has a soothing voice I'm trying to stay calm and Zen like and be at one with the water in them anytime you like I fight the urge to emerge but I just can't take it much longer what can only be. A big difference this is the. Early Years. Earlier though. Once I got my breath back to normal lives confessed she'd forgotten to time me so I realised I'd have to try that all over again some die for fun some out of necessity Kim Gye is from Jeju Island in South Korea She's one of the traditional women divers or high on yo meaning see women on a single breath she dives to depths of up to 15 meters in search of seafood. There that you or your it doesn't sell but the owner and yet. When I started diving at 15 it was for stuff we could sell in the market octopus Cisneros abalone we even knew Spears to catch fish underwater and by the age of 17 I was good enough to make quite a bit of money. Then when I was 33 my husband died and I had the burden of raising our 4 children on my own. Free diving in Korea goes back to the 6th century but for the past 300 years it's mainly been done by women intrepid wives and mothers like Kim have long been their family's main breadwinner harvesting the lucrative sea bed while their menfolk farm the land above. How back then when I had my 1st daughter we were really knocked well off so just 5 days after giving birth I volunteered to go out to sea. And I left my newborn baby and with her grandfather. And I dived to the sea bottom to collect seaweed the type that were quite a bit of money. But that dive took its toll on me. I was sick my body and face became really bloated. The 1st rule of any diving with it's free diving or scuba diving or swimming in general never dive alone I lost my best friend and it was a horrible loss of Asli he just made that one mistake one day he went free diving alone and never came back. A blackout is not a horrible experience you don't know that you're blacking out that's the danger it's like you pulling the plug from a computer. In the past decade alone at least 40 c. Women from Jeju Island have died on the job. I've never had to go to hospital myself but there was a lady in my village who died a couple of months ago while I was diving. Sometimes things can go wrong maybe your tools get stuck or you might get snagged on something and if you miscalculate and stay under too long it can be fake or so far we've been talking about people who consciously hold their breath but some do it in voluntarily says lung specialist Toby Hillman when people are asleep the muscles of the neck and soft palate are actually a bit floppy a so they have less tone and you can get obstructions to the airway so that's not necessarily breathing control but it's more of a mechanical stoppage of air moving and that's something which is called obstructive sleep apnea and what we see is that people have their sleep significantly disturbed it can be really quite dramatic sort of having 6070 press holds per hour and sometimes those breaths hold can be really very long so 4560 seconds. If some adults stop breathing in their sleep some young children stop breathing when they're fully awake Usually these spells don't last long but that doesn't make it any easier for parents like Samantha Vanderpoel. My daughter had been suffering with the virus it was around about November time and she was around about 10 months old. I was getting into bed and I heard a noise on the video monitor it just didn't sound right to me. Something told me to go up to her bedroom and as I did she was laying and thrashing about and she just didn't look like my daughter looked like a completely different child in that cot I scooped her up I ran down the stairs to my husband then she went limp and stopped breathing. Her eyes rolled back and she just went from blue to ashen and I just screamed at my husband call an ambulance she's died she's died. Within about a minute she had come round I was a mess my husband was a mess and she went off to hospital for some tests all of which came back absolutely fine and for maybe 2 days 3 days she was absolutely fine and then we counted again such fits can happen when a small child has a temperature that often provokes these breath holding spells but Samantha's daughter has a number of triggers usually it's down to emotional stress so if she has a tantrum sometimes she just won't take that breath and she'll go blue and boom there goes one so in total the how many of these episodes have you had over $200.00 really we were having up to 8 in a day. And what do you do. Everything that goes against how it feels to be a mother I have to leave her on the floor and monitor her breathing lift her legs up count because if it goes beyond 10 seconds then I have to call an ambulance if she hasn't taken a breath in that time when all I want to do is cuddle her and soothe her but realistically that is actually the worst thing I can do it will prolong the episode . You must be in a terrible state of panic. Obviously I'm trying my hardest to keep calm because if my daughter White from a seizure and sees that I am distressed it will put her into another one so it's a case of keeping everybody calm which is especially difficult if it happens in public and hasn't happened yes it was shortly after we saw the neurologist and my daughter had a seizure in a supermarket trolley I was asked if I could video episodes for the neurologist so they can see exactly what's occurring at that time and the looks like got from other people who must have thought I was crazy there is my daughter Blue and limp in a trolley with me making no attempt to soothe her but standing there videoing her I remember after the seizure skipping around going outside sitting in my car and just sobbing because I felt like the worst mother in the wild. The high on your divers of Jeju Island sing mournfully about how their men are drinking while the women do the heavy lifting underwater more or more to. These real life mermaids have a tough existence and they seem to be a dying breed in the 1960 s. There were around 26000 hyun year now fewer than 5000 left last year UNESCO officially recognized the women as an intangible cultural heritage of humanity many like Kim Akbar already grandmothers younger women on Jeju Island would rather work in offices or hotels than Don a wetsuit and hold their breath in the icy Korean straits. Book other than you do so that they do that in Yemen divers like me are to take painkillers because there are a lot of stresses on the body. And I'm having to increase the dosage because I've taken this medicine for so long it's becoming less and less effective. But you know next year I'll be 80 I'm still going strong and even though I've not completely recovered after my 1st child I still feel diving hasn't affected me too badly and one of my granddaughters now wants to learn to dive like me she's been to a special dive school on j.q. Where they teach the new generation of women she's carrying on the family trade So are you proud that your granddaughter has decided to pick it up. Where it was her decision and while I'm very proud of her have making it there is a part of me that feels worried about safety because I know how tough it is but she said I'm strong I want to do it breath holding may carry risks but it's also a powerful force for good according to form a world record holder stakes Severinsen when you do breath holding you actually stressing yourself and you're actually provoking that stress response you know because you're kind of moving closer to death you know when you're holding your breath for 234 minutes but then when you learn to control that stress it gives you a tool that you know you can use and you don't have to go to the gym you don't have to call your mommy a doctor you know that with your breathing you can resort to that 247 and it's reliable Stig's record breath hold of 22 minutes has since been broken it's now over 24 minutes longer than this radio program just imagine that. You think. Ok. The best time. I don't know it was. Night time when you. Don't want to watch. 159 just one measly 2nd short of 2 minutes not bad for a 1st time I'm told stick spent doing this his whole life actually I found the discipline curiously invigorating when breath holding is involuntary though it can be frightening it feels a bit like staring over the abyss towards the end of life. That was the wife factor with Lucy Osh So Phoebe tell me how long can you hold your breath for. You know Dr Well I had one of those tests recently actually a lung capacity test the doctor what is your lung capacity I'm not sure but it was a much older age than I am that I had the lungs of much older persons it is a bit worried about that but then I don't have asked so that's good it's good that you know when I was doing my breathing test Well you have to puff into this tube saying and she said Oh you could be a deep sea diver Oh wonderful time to think so I think that's probably one of those things that nurses say well I may have the lungs of a startled humps or I ever I used to have a deep sea diving dog well absolutely true and when my parents 1st went to meet the dog and take it for a walk along the beach the owner never said what his job was on our dog run into the sea after a stone or something my daughter threw on him for about 20 minutes it never appeared so my parents started to think we're going to have to tell this mom of drawing to what I'm going to. Eventually she was her name pops up runs out of the sea Wiking her tail and. Turned out her owner was a deep sea diver in the Middle East were former company and so they would go scuba diving and snorkeling together and she did this all the time think well what amazing to look. That's already outside for this right you've been listening to the thoughts are with me Jordan and with me will be back at the same time next week teaching us that. You're listening to the b.b.c. World news on k r c c To southern Colorado's n.p.r. Station Kera c.c. Broadcasts on 91.5 f.m. From our studios in Colorado Springs Colorado you can also hear cares you see in the following communities 88.5 f.m. In West Cliff and Gardner 89 point one f.m. In La Hunter 89.9 f.m. In Lyman 90 point one f.m. In Manitou Springs 91.7 f.m. In Trinidad and Raton New Mexico 94 point one f.m. In Walsenburg and love Fida 95.5 f.m. In Lake George and Hartsell 95.7 f.m. .