Transcripts For KRCB PBS NewsHour 20121227

Captioning sponsored by Macneil Lehrer productions ifill a massive winter storm disrupted travel today for tens of thousands of americans across the country. Good evening, im gwen ifill. Warner and im margaret warner. On the neho tonight, we t the latest on the snow sleet and rain that have snarled roads, knocked out power and delayed flights. Ifill then, with images from the connecticut massacre still raw, Spencer Michels looks at a California Law that aims to head off such violence. Reporter though no one knows the diagnosis of the perpetrator of the shootings in newtown, the killings have raised once again the issue of forcing the mentally ill into treatment. Warner as Congress Comes back to washington to resume fiscal cliff negotiations, we ask, what happens if they dont reach a deal . Ifill we talk with a repsentative of egypts Muslim Brotherhood about the new brotherhoodbacked constitution signed into law today. Warner and we have another of our conversations with retiring members of congress. Paul solman sat down with the always outspoken massachusetts democrat barney frank. The notion that people would not go along with an important Public Policy because i hurt their feelings, i dont think thats true. Ifill thats all ahead on tonights newshour. Major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by and with the ongoing support of these institutions and foundations. And. This program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Ifill a major winter storm surged into the midwest and northeast, fouling flight schedules and ruining Road Conditions on this day after christmas. The huge weather system left a trail of destruction in the Gulf Coast Region and at least six people dead. Oh, wow, oh jesus, look at that tornado. Ifill the calm of christmas night was shattered by tornadoes dropping from the sky across much of the deep south. This one hit near downtown mobile, alabama, ripping apart a church, a high school and a number of homes. At least 34 twisters struck in texas, louisiana, mississippi and alabama, tearing walls from homes and tossing cars onto one another. By this morning, heaps of debris dotted the gulf region. This use to be a really big, as you can tell by the size of the slab, use to be a huge feed store, metal. It wasnt a weak building at all. You can see what it did to it. Amazing. Ifill the same system that spawned the tornadoes dropped record snow on arkansas and texas, turning Christmas Lights into icicles and forcing wouldbe travelers to think twice. My mom and dad live in el paso and i was planning on going to el paso, but i think ill be staying home now. Ifill in oklahoma, the icy conditions led to this 21car pileup last night. From there, the huge storm front lumbered on, bringing blizzard warnings in indiana and ohio. To the northeast, more than a foot of snow was expected from new york state to maine. By last night, it was already on the way. The winds were fierce it was blowing the cars around and you could see the semis were swerving. Ifill the storm also forced cancellation of hundreds of flights and the ripple effects reached as far west as san francisco. After i found out my flight had been canceled after four hours of waiting in the airport, i had to wait another three Hour Customer Service line, which i didnt even get to the end of before the booth closed. Ifill about a 1,000 people spent christmas night on cots at Dallas Fort Worth international airport. By dawn, patience was wearing thin. One fedup pilot apologized to his passengers over the loudspeaker, after they were forced to wait on the tarmac for almost five hours. Ifill by this evening, the worst of the weather was moving into new england. But in its wake, nearly 200,000 customers had lost power across the southeast and midwest, making home for the holidays unexpectedly cold and dark. Warner still to come on the newshour courtordered treatment for the mentally ill; deal or no deal; whats next, the view from the Muslim Brotherhood and massachusetts congressman barney frank. But first, the other news of the day. Heres kwame holman. Holman Toyota Motor Company agreed today to pay more than 1 billion and settle claims of sudden acceleration. Court filings in california said the auto maker will install a brake override system in more than three million vehicles. It also will make direct payments to affected customers. The agreement is subject to approval by a federal judge. Reporter thousands of sunni demonstrators in western iraq staged a mass protest today against the shiitedominated government, the third in less than a week. Protesters filled the streets in ramadi in Anbar Province chanting topple the regime. The demonstrations began after Police Arrested ten bodyguards assigned to the sunni inan minter. Reporter the parliament of japan has elected shinzo abe as the countrys seventh Prime Minister in six years. Abe was sworn in today after being chosen by his conservativeleaning liberal democratic party. The party won power in this months elections, for the First Time Since 2009. Abe has called for bold measures to bolster japans ailing economy. He previously served as Prime Minister from 2006 to 2007. Russian lawmakers gave final approval today o a ban on americans adopting russian children. Its part of a series of reactions to a u. S. Sanctions law targeting russian human rights abusers. In washington today, a state Department Spokesman called the ban misguided. And adoption groups in moscow said it would harm children most. translated today we dont have that number of russian families who are willing to adopt, and the children who go to adopted families abroad are the children that russian families wouldnt take. There must be at least five refusals by russian families for the child to go to foreign parents. For that reason i dont see within this law an improved situation for these children. Holman russian president Vladimir Putin defended the legislation last week, without saying directly that he would sign it. In economic news, a mastercard report said u. S. Holiday sales so far have been the weakest since 2008. And wall street failed to get any momentum today. The Dow Jones Industrial average lost 24 points to close at 13, 114. The nasdaq fell 22 points to close at 2,990. Those are some of the days major stories. Now, back to margaret. Warner we turn to the difficulties of Getting Mental Health care to those who need it. Its a subject getting more attention in the wake of the several recent shootings. Its not known if the gunman in newtown, connecticut suffered from Mental Illness. But the man who shot four firefighters in webster new york this week killing two of them who were remembered at a procession yesterday left a disturbing note in which he pledged to burn down the neighborhood and quote do what i like doing best, killing people. Politicians and commentators have used these and prior attacks to call for improved Mental Health screening and treatment. But one such program in california has proven hard to implement, as newshour correspondent Spencer Michels reports. I wanted the world to know what a wonderful, incredible person she was. Reporter for more than a decade, nick and Amanda Wilcox have been advocating timely treatment and Early Intervention for the severely mentally ill in the hopes they wont become violent. Twelve years ago, their 19year olddaughter laura wilcox, a college sophomore, was murdered by while she was working over christs break at a Mental Health clinic in Nevada County, california. At about 11 30 a client at the clinic came in and shot laura four times at point black range through the glass. What we know now after the fact is he had late onset paranoid schizophrenia. Reporter lauras murderer, scott thorp, killed two others, and then went home and took a nap. He was eventually sentenced to a locked Mental Hospital for life. We felt that lauras death was a result of a failed Mental Health system. We wanted to help prevent people from being so mentally ill that they would commit a violent act. Reporter helen thomson, a former psychiatric nurse, was a california legislator at the time, working on a law to get treatment and social Services Like housing for reluctant and sometimes dangerous mentally ill individuals. People who were not covered by existing laws. They were resistant. They didnt want to go to the clinic, or they didnt want to take their medicine or they just simply werent lling to participate. We were answering the frustrations of families who, were told they didnt need help; they called the police. The police would take them to the hospital or the jail. Theyd be released back on the street and it became a rotating, circular activity. Reporter thompson named her law for laura wilcox. After much contentious debate it passed in 2002. A major aim is to provide aggressive treatment for those existing laws miss; people who may not have committed a crime, yet, but have a history of prior hospitalization and appear to be on a downward spiral. Lauras law provides Court Ordered outpatient treatment for the seriously mentally ill for up to six months. The court must find the patient is likely to become dangerous to himself or others. The patient must have a history of not complying with treatment. The process can be requested by parents, roommates, siblings, a spouse, as well as Mental Health workers and police. I think this is a perfectly good way to go. It beats doing nothing. Reporter for patients who dont comply, the court has the power to send them to the hospital for an assessment, which is a threat designed to convince them to comply. Legislators never funded the law; they said that supervisors in each of californias 58 counties had to implement and pay for it. Only one county Nevada County where laura lived has opted in. With fewer than 100,000 residents, it sits in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains, a center of mining during the gold rush. Nationwide, 43 states other than california have laws permitting some form of involuntary outpatient commitment. Though no one knows the diagnosis of the perpetrator of the shootings in newtown, the killings have raised once again the issue of forcing the mentally ill into treatment. It was raised when lauras law was passed and remains an point of contention. Coercive programs, fears of things like involuntary treatment, fears of having your dignity and your rights taken away, drive a lot of people away from things that would help. Reporter eduardo vega suffered from Mental Illness when in his 20s. He is the executive director of san franciscos Mental Health association and took part in a News Conference with legislators to boost support for Mental Health programs in california and across the country following the newtown shootings. But vega is opposed to the involuntary treatment programs in lauras law. Ive had some bad experiences in Mental Health services. Theres so many people who, precisely because theyre afraid of things like coercion, things like being locked up, being labeled, they dont receive any services, they dont talk to anybody, they become more isolated. Reporter vega says that in the wake of a tragedy, politicians often rush to pass unhelpful legislation. The lauras law project was driven by this example of a tragedy and spoke to peoples needs to want to try to do Something Different. And in this case it wasnt the right thing. But yet it can be that we rushed to create a solution before really thinking about what the implications are of it. Reporter the debate over involuntary treatment is familiar ground at the non profit turning Point Community programs in nevada city, which provides services for the countys mentally ill, including those who fall under lauras law, and many who dont. Some of the patients, like 36 yearold Jonathan Maurer here for a long acting injection for his paranoid schizophrenia, and to meet with a psychiatrist resent being ordered to receive treatment. Today maurer accepts voluntary treatment, for his paranoia; though he claims to have been mistreated previously. They gave me a catheter, and strapped me down naked on the hospital bed and then sedated me. They strip you of all your rights. I just dont see how they expect to logically assume that treating people with violence is going to cure violence. Reporter but Debra Simmons mother of a very disturbed son who gets treatment here praises lauras law and involuntary treatment for essentially saving his life. She didnt want his name used. He gets angry and agitated, doesnt sleep, doesnt eat, just goes through a whole cycle of events that just kind of spiral downward until hes become a concern to the society if hes out in public. We had to call the police, and he struck my husband; physically weve had to lock ourselves in our room. Hes torn our house apart. Reporter her son, she says, refused treatment until it was ordered under lauras law. He doesnt think hes ill. He doesnt recognize even when hes at his worst. He doesnt recognize that he has an illness. He thinks everyone else in the room or the community has a problem, not him. Reporter for simmons, lauras law, has been a game changer. Without that, i believe he would have injured someone else, or himself, and i dont believe we would have him today. Reporter still, many in the Mental Health Community Like rusty selix say the law builds up false expectations. Selix, executive director of the Mental Health association of california, says it applies to very few people. The belief that every Single Person out there who has a Mental Illness and doesnt, you know, seek treatment for it is going to be helped by lauras law is just nonsense. Theyre not a danger to anybody. The irony of course is it wouldnt have applied to any of these mass shooters. None of them were in that situation, or if they were, they were very good at hiding it from everyone around them. Reporter selix says Nevada County, where the law is in effect but has been used in just 54 cases is too small to be a model for big cities with vast Mental Health populations. Besides, he argues, much of what it does is covered by other laws; its the funding thats missing. Its a very expensive and cumbersome process. Maybe in a small rural county like nevada its not that expensive and cumbersome, but in all the larger counties to go through this enormous Court Process to get people into an Outpatient Program that we already have, and that we have hundreds of people on the street that are desiring of it, and we dont need a court order to get, what do we get out of it . And the feeling is that it doesnt really add that much. Reporter but at the Nevada County courthouse, presiding judge Thomas Anderson says the law has been very effective with two thirds of the cases, avoiding time consuming court hearings. Its saving tons of time, getting people into treatment when they need it, and the results have been very, very good. In the first couple of years, we saved a half a Million Dollars in our small county, which is a huge factor. This is a tool thats been missing forever from our Mental Health providing statues. Reporter anderson says the law tries to prevent psychotic patients from acting out and getting worse. The purposes of lauras law and the goal here is to catch them before that happens, engage them in treatment, hopefully voluntarily, and allow them to get some stability and then build on that stability to get back into a more normal lifestyle. Reporter the California Legislature recently extended lauras law, but still hasnt funded it. Outside Nevada County, los aneles has started a very small Pilot Program to implement lauras law, and several other counties have debated it. But with budgets tight, implementation by cashstrapped counties appears problematic. Ifill president obama heads back to washington tonight, as House Republicans call on the senate to come up with a plan to avert the fiscal cliff. With prospects still murky for a deal before years end, what can government workers, wall Street Investors and taxpayers expect if lawmakers miss the deadline . For that, we turn to stacy palmer, editor of the chronicle of philanthropy. Jackie simon, Public Policy director of the American Federation of government employees. And hugh johnson, who runs an investment and Advisory Firm in albany, new york. You all represent different constituencies. I want to start with you, jackie. Sorry, i want to start with you, stacy, and talk about philanthropy. This is the end of the year when people are making their decisions abouthether theyre going to get tax breaks or who theyre going to give to. Are people looking at the fiscal cliff and saying i dont know . Absolutely. People are uncertain as to whether theres going to be a charitable deduction next year, things like the estate tax will change. So its a rocky time. So some people are giving more and deciding im going to get the tax break now and do it while its a good thing for sure and some people are putting off the decision deciding they isle give more later. So were seeing a mixed bag but its a tough time because this is the time of year when most people are doing a lot of charitable giving. Ifill let me get your name right this time, jackie, and ask you about federal employees. They are affected by this. There are furloughs, cutbacks, tell me what people are thinking. Well, federal employees are in the uniquely bad position of facing peril regardless of whether theres a deal. Or whether sequestration and the fiscal cliff occurs. Ifill the acrosstheboard cuts. Why does it work that way . In the event no deal is made and we do have the automatic cuts known as sequestration starting in january, federal employees face job loss and in some situations certainly in the department of defense but throughout the federal Government People will be furloughed, forced to take unpaid days off, anywhere from 20 to 50 days. We really dont know. It depends in part on the agency and it depends in part on how much of the remainder of the fiscal year these cuts are squished into. So its thats one bad situation. And then the socalled grand bargains and deals, many of those include provisions that would cut federal Retirement Benefits and extend the current pay freeze for an additional three years so that federal employees would go five full years without any paid a justments. Ifill hugh johnson, if you were an investor or a Business Owner and youre watching wall street watch the fiscal cliff debate what are you telling them . Are people nervous . Well, even though i think theres been some positive things unfolding and i think the most positive thing thats been unfolding is the fact that the markets have not collapsed desite this very significant risk that we could go off the cliff, we could have significant increases in taxes, reductions in spending, and that would lead to a recession in 2013. The markets been Holding Together fairly well, telling me and i think investors collectively tend to get this right that were probably not going to go off the fiscal cliff or if we do go off the fiscal cliff it will b a small package of some tax increases, some spending cuts, but its not going to put the economy into a recession. So what ive been telling clients is lets just hold the line right here. Lets not sell precipitously. Lets wait until we see the outcome. But right now i think theres a real good chance that the outcome could be positive or will muddle our way through this significant problem. Ifill let me ask you a question which politicians kept bringing up during this last election which is the that the uncertainty is what makes peopl nervous in the sinessworld. Is this the kind of uncertainty they were talking about . It absolutely is. You mentioned before the retail Sales Numbers for this Christmas Season and the retail Sales Numbers for this Christmas Season were very poor, very soft. This is both individuals and individuals affecting Companies Making decisions and its really largely driven by their significant uncertainty about whats going to be their tax rate in 2013. Theyre really postponing any spending and it clearly affects all of those businesses tha are in the reil business. So you bet. Uncertainty is a real big part of it. And businesses are clearly not investininvesting in capital eq, at least at this juncture. They slowed that down and, again, they want to see the outcome and, quite frankly, were headed toward that outcome. Hopefully its a good outcome. Ifill stacy palmer, you said a moment ago some people will write bigger checks as a way of thinking just in case they lose their ability to make these deductions and some people will write smaller checks or not write them at all. How do you balance out whether this is agood thing or a bad thing in the short term . It depend who you are. Charities that have wealthy people, those are the people thinking about these Tax Deductions because most americans dont write off their charitable gifts. So the very wealthy charities are doing a little bit better. But i think this Economic Uncertainty is what the real problem is for the person making that 10 or 15 donation. If youre worried your job might get lost because things are so bad or that we are going to go into another recession if Congress Never comes up with a deal, you dont feel so good about writing that check to a charitable cause. You might go volunteer and use your time that way, but youre not going to give the direct money. So it think it depends its not one answer for the nonprofit world. Ifill also in the nonprofit world dont they depend a lot on the money which might get cut in any deal . Thats the much more important consequence for sure. Onethird of the money that Charities Get comes from the government so Mental Health services, help for the disabled, colleges doing their research, all those things are affected by government money and if that doesnt come or there will be some cut eventually in king a deal, that will cause a dramatic cut in the Money Charities get. But also more people may turn to charities if their own government benefits are cut. So charities are expecting a tough 2013. Ifill jacque simon, if im an employee of the pentagon or some place which there are tens of thousands of employees, is there any possibility that any deal that that come up with is going to disproportionately affect a Department Like that or does that happen across the board . Well, everything as it is right now is determined by the a law that was passed in 2011, the budget control act. Thats what set in motion this trigger for sequestration. In that law, roughly half was supposed to go to the department of defense and half in nondefense agencies. But given that, they will be thats one of the things that theres uncertainty among federal employees also, because we dont know yet how much discretion agencies will have and how they implement their cuts. And, again, a lot of focus is on sequestration, those automatic cuts. But that law also put in place spending caps that will affect cuts that are even larger than theequestration cuts. So cuts are definitely coming. Thats not even a question. Ifill its not debatable. Its just how large they will be and who will be impacted by those cuts. And federal employees in almost every scenario will be adversely affected. Again, theyve already given 103 billion toward deficit reduction and almost every scenario that weve considered a likelihood federal employees get hit again. Ifill let me ask you each briefly. Are you optimistic or pessimistic from what you read about the prospect of a deal . Im very optimistic. I think they will do something to avert sequestration, yes. Ifill hugh johnson . Very clearly i think that the message of the markets is were going to avoid a significant tax increase and significant spending cuts or the economy is not going to go into a recession in 2013 and thats really the key in this whole thing. Or, i would add, 2014. So im cautiously optimistic. Im holding on to my im crossing my fingers and holding on for dear life. Ifill crossing your fingers and toes . Stacy palmer . I hope well some kind to an agreement soon but whatever happen there ises is s going to be deficit cutting and well have to face decisions so that could be rough. Ifill stacy palmer, jacque simon and hugh johnson of johnson illington advisories, i wanted to get the title right, thank you all very much. Thank you. Warner next to egypt, where a hotly debated new constitution went into effect today. Egyptian president Mohamed Morsi addressed a deeply divided nation this evening, calling for his countrymen to unite behind the new constitution. translated to all egyptian people, you kind people, men and women, we stand today to celebrate our new constitution. Its a historic day. Egypt and egyptians now have a free constitution its not a grant from a king, imposed by a president or imposed by an occupier. Its a constitution selected by the egyptian people at their own free will. Warner the document, which morsi signed into law last night, was approved by voters, after months of street turmoil, and accusations that he and his Muslim Brotherhood rammed the charter through the ratification process. Morsi argued that speedy action was critical to restore stability to egypt. But Opposition Leaders like Mohammed Elbaradei insisted the document will enshrine islamist rule at the expense of hardwon liberties. He spoke monday on the newshour. It defies a lot of the basic human value we live by, like freedom of religion, freedom of expression, independence of the judiciary. So im not sure that this is the way forward. One of the most dangerous parts in that constitution, that it opened the door for many Controversial School of religious thoughts to seep through the legislative process and undermine the authority of the judiciary. Warner the constitution was approved by 64 of the national vote, but only a third of eligible voters had turned out. And in major cities like cairo, majorities voted no. This morning, those divisions were still apparent in cairo. translated it will certainly lead to stability. We can now begin to move forward. Investment can begin to come into egypt. What more do people want . translated we are very sad and we never wanted the situation to be this way. We never wanted just one Political Group to rule. We wanted there to be unity. Warner for now, legislative power rests with the countrys upper house of parliament, which is dominated by islamists. It was seated today. translated with regards warner parliamentary elections for the lower house take place in two months. The countrys lawmakers have no time to waste. The months of political unrest and uncertainty have disrupted the economy. Egypts Credit Rating was downgraded this week and its currency is trading at the lowest level in eight years. In response, morsis government has put off planned tax increases on various goods, and imposed restrictions on the amount of money that can be taken out of the country. Now a counter to our interview with el baradei earlier this week. For that, we turn to waleed el haddad, an official with the Muslim Brotherhoods freedom and Justice Party. I spoke to him late this afternoon. Waleed el haddad, welcome. This new constitution thats now law remains in the eyes of many egyptians a very polarizing document. How does president morsi plan or hope to overcome that divide . Id like to say that we have the first constitution in the egyptian history that egyptians went to the polling stations and put their voices and choose the first document suppressing them. Maybe there is some sort of disagreement for some points or some articles and the president choose to have a meeting and the dialogue and calling for a dialogue for all Political Forces of ours to sit together in order to discuss these points or these articles. And these promise to be committed to offer these articles to the next parliament in order to amend if there is a dialogue a dialogue between the political parties. Warner what can you say to Opposition Leaders like el bar die who say freedom of religion and protection for minorities and women are being curtailed here . We find this constitution protects basic human rights. If you read article number 34 you will find personal rights which is a very important article andachieves equality and the social justice the people need. There is no for some points that elbaradei and others mentioned. We are holding the Civil Democratic and modern state so now im calling all my friends in the opposition front play the politics democratically and play with the people, the grassroots, in ordertor grab the voices in order to amend the articles through the parliant, through the Democratic Institutions not through such demonstrations in the street. Warner there are also concerns it opens the door for islamic clericking to intervene in the law making process. Does it . When you read the egyptian document, the constitution you will find that for the first time there are new articles for the copts, for the jews, for the egyptian people who are nonmuslims and leaving in our land. We are partners in our homeland so there is no dominant for one camp or for muslims only. There is no room for an islamic or a theo krat i can state because the egyptian people in the history they didnt accept such state and they will not accept any role of the theocrat i can state. They will accept only the civil country, the democric country, the modern country that we are as a freedom and Justice Party committed to have this political seat. Warner many in the urban, business, and professional class oppose this constitution. Can president morsi tackle egypts economic crisis without their support . Well, we have a constitution now and we will have a parliament after a couple of months so this is the stability that the Foreign Investment is asking. We are in a crisis, yes, but we have several issues in order to pass this economical crisis. Firstly, we are going to have the loan from the i. M. F. And now we have as i mentioned the stable environments to attract the Foreign Investments, yes. We will work together. We will produce. We exert more efforts in order to develop, in order to find the solution r our economical crisis. Warner waleed el haddad, thank you for joining us. You can watch all of our monday interview with Opposition Leader Mohammed Elbaradei. Find a link on our home page. Ifill now, a second look at a science story that captured headlines this year. The federal government has taken new steps to limit some of the research it does with chimpanzees, which have long been the source of hope and debate. But qstionsemain abt whether those experiments should occur under any circumstances. Newshour science correspondent miles obrien reports. Reporter there are no other animals quite like them, except us. They share 99 of our d. N. A. And it shows. They scheme, plot and fight. They care for their babies and they grieve their dead. And they love a good game of catch. As i discovered, queenie had little patience for my wild pitches. Did you see her stomp her foot . Reporter shes very mad at me. Those very similarities are at the core of a heated debate over whether scientists should keep using chimpanzees for scientific and medical research. Do we owe our cousins something more . Here, they say we do. Welcome to chimp haven, near shreveport louisiana, a 200acre oasis of tall trees and hidden daily treats for about 130 chimpanzees. Haven cofounder amy fultz put me to work making a chimp Easter Egg Hunt of sorts. Its good roughage, isnt it . Im going to put some up here. You know, its nice sometimes to eat up in the balcony and just take the world in. They would eat termites this way, right . And ants. And actually, chimpanzees here at chimp haven have been fishing for fire ants. Reporter its kind of like mexican food, right . In short order, the chimps were let loose and the treats were clearly a hit linda brent is president and director of chimp haven, she will never forget when the first chimps arrived here in 2005. They just poured out of their indoor enclosure out into the forest, all of them. And they ran all the way down. And several of them stopped a couple times and just did this wideeyed wonder that they were out here and free, finally free. Reporter the chimps here sure have earned it. Most of them have lived hard lives as test subjects in scientific and medical research. Some of the chimpanzees when they first arrive are actually afraid to put their feet down on the grass. Reporter really . Yeah. They havent had that opportunity and some of them will stick close to the cement and the wire mesh. Reporter take a look at kris. This is how she spends her time outside alone, clinging to a 17foot high concrete wall, apparently traumatized. But in recent years, japan, they have helped find treatments for h. I. V. And hepatitis and played a key role in the space race. But in recent years, japan, europe and the uk have all ended the practice, leaving the u. S. And gabon the only two nations that allow scientists to conduct tests on chimpanzees, but maybe not for long. If this committee had been tasked to do what it was asked to do five years from now, we probably would have said there is no longer any need for the use of chimpanzees. Reporter jeffrey kahn is a professor of bioethics at Johns Hopkins university. He chaired a Blue Ribbon Committee for the institute of medicine that took a hard look chimpanzee testing in the u. S. As the outcry from Animal Rights activists reached a crescendo. We did acknowledge that from the perspective of this committee, the fact that chimpanzees are very close to humans gives them a different status. Reporter in late 2011, the committee laid out strict guidelines for chimp testing the research must be done only when its lifesaving, it cant be done ethically in humans, there are no other models, and the animals are socially and humanely housed. When the report arrived here at the National Institutes of health, they embraced the new rules almost immediately and formed a new working group to examine all research that relies on chimp testing. James anderson oversees that group. But the first test of this working group is to review all of those one at a time and hold them up against the iom principles and tell us this is consistent or this is not consistent. And if theyre not consistent, then well work with the investigators to close down the project. Reporter when the new rules are applied, there are very few Research Projects that make the grade. And most of them have something to do with the hunt for a vaccine for hepatitis c. Right now chimpanzees are the only Laboratory Animal that can be infected with the virus, although it does not make them sick. I do appreciate the sentiment that goes with chimpanzees. I feel it. I go home and say, are we still on the right track . Are we still doing the right research and is it absolutely required . And i come back and i say, yes. Reporter Robert Lanford is a scientist at the Texas Biomedical Research institute, where they house about 3,000 primates that are used for research, baboons, rhesus monkeys and about 150 chimpanzees. Oh, you dont want it, you want Something Different . Reporter sabrina bourgeous is one of the people here whose sole job is ensuring the chimpanzees are healthy and happy. I would say absolutely some of my best friends are chimpanzees. On a bad day, i come and seek out my friends. Reporter the attention, toys, push pops and primate friends make it all seem like chimp haven. But there was an awful lot they would not let us see here. None of these chimps were in the midst of a scientific study. We drove by the compound where that happens, but were not allowed to go inside, much less record video of any active research or medical procedures. Is there something were not seeing here that youd rather us not see . Its not that were trying to hide something. That we have a mission here, that is to prove improve Human Health Care and we believe that when people see that picture, they cant listen to the mission anymore. Reporter maybe so. Our trip did come on the heels of an nbc news report, which showed this one chimp getting sedated, blacking out and crashing to the ground. And another getting blood drawn while unconscious on a table. And take a look at this dramatic video of a sedation at another research facility. This came from an undercover investigation by the humane society. They see that, and their empathy as a human automatically goes out to that animal and says, this doesnt look good. Reporter so is it cruel or not . Well that depends who you ask. Sabrina bourgeois is unequivocal. So theyre not suffering . No, i dont believe i couldnt work here if they were. I really couldnt. I genuinely care for and love these animals. I think a lot of us wouldnt be here those who work with animals wouldnt be here if they suffered. Reporter but they do endure repeated sedations and biopsies. Medical files uncovered by the Physicians Committee for responsible medicine tell some grim stories. Take rosie, for example at 30 years old, she has endured 15 liver biopsies, multie blod draws and 99 sedations, several resulting in seizures. And she is still a test subject at texas biomed. Andrew rowan is chief scientific officer for the humane society. Yes, they are suffering. And then the other thing about it is the biopsies are not benign. I mean, the chimps that were retired out of this one lab in new york, they died at 35. They can live to be 55, 60 years of age. Reporter but does the end ever justify the means . Scientists are using chimpanzees to try and stem a raging epidemic of hepatitis c fully 3 of the worlds population, approaching 200 million people, carry the hepc virus. The drugs used to treat it are not always effective and carry horrible side effects and there is no vaccine. Arthur, nice to see you. Hey, you dr. Schiff good to see you. Reporter arthur, who asked us not to use his last name, believes he contracted hepatitis c during his days as a paramedic. He now has chronic Liver Disease and has suffered fatigue, nausea, irritability and depression from multiple drug treatments. Its an insidious disease. And its one that multiplies and grows. Me for example, having a very mild case of inflammation of the liver and within a 10year period, it progresses to cirrhosis. Reporter Eugene Schiff of the university of miami, is arthurs physician. He has been in the trenches treating hepatitis patients and researching the disease for four decades. I think id be a hypocrite if i said we dont need the chimpanzee, and i think id be doing a disservice to mankind. Reporter on his desk, he keeps a statue of a famous research chimp named daphne, testing on her helped scientists discover the protease inhibitors that make life a little easier for the likes of arthur. There isnt a day that i dont give somewhat, some thanks to daphne for the gift that she gave me. Why do i have that statue there . I think that chimpanzee and not only me, many people do is the hero of hepatitis. I often i referred to the chimpanzee as a hero of hepatitis. Reporter Scientists Say they are close to a less morally fraught alternative to chimpanzees. Labs in new york and maine are breeding so called humanized mice, which have livers that can be infected with hepatitis c. But this alternative wont be a reality for at least five years. Meanwhile, a moratorium on breeding lab chimps began in 1995, so eventually the testing will end or will it . Some say we should keep a colony at the ready for diseases we cant predict. The government is expected to decide on that later this year even so, with a thousand chimps still in us Research Labs right now, linda brent is making plans to expand chimp haven. Youre going to have a lot of potential visitors here, right . Right. Reporter excuse me, not visitors. Residents. Reporter residents. Hows that all are going to work out for you . Well, were really excited about it. I think in the very near future, we will be able to probably say that we have taken care of the chimpanzees that have served in medical research by giving them a fitting retirement. You ready . You ready . Reporter and hopefully, an occasional pitch in the strike zone. Oh, yes yes ifill an update, last week the n. I. H. Announced it would move 113 of its animals to chimp haven. But its unclear who will pay for the expansion of that facility. And theres more about all this on our website. Warner finally tonight, another in our series of conversations with retiring lawmakers. Tonight, massachusetts democrat barney frank. The congressman, whos served for 32 years, is known for his sharp intellect and blunt style. As chairman of the Financial Services committee, he coauthored the doddfrank reform law regulating banks in the wake of the financial crisis. He was the first openly gay member of congress, and recently married his longtime partner. Before that, in the 1980s, his career was marred by scandal involving his relationship with a male prostitute. But frank weathered that and went on to win reelection by wide margins. Newshour economics correspondent paul solman sat down with him last week. Reporter congressman frank, welcome. Why congress . What did you hope to accomplish when you came here first . To make this a fairer country. Id always been interested in politics. I assumed for a variety of well, for two reasons being jewish and being gay back in the late 50s, early 60s, id never be elected or anything, but i would participate as an activist. And its to make it fairer. Fairness in the sense of people not going hungry or being deprived through no fault of their own, or even if there was their fault, but not letting people sink to that level of misery, ending discrimination, not interfering with peoples personal freedom. And then when the congressional seat opened up, it was a Natural Forum to kind of increase my scope of activities to make this a better country. Reporter what grade do you give yourself, one to ten . Oh, i give myself a ten for being smart enough not to answer that question. Either you sound humble in a way that is literally incredible, not credible, or you sound arrogant. Ill say none of the above. Reporter what do you consider your successes . The financial reform bill i believe will hold up very well; i had a major role in that with some others. I am very proud of the role i played in getting legal equality for people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender, and helping get rid of the prejudice by being visible about it. Hepingo block. The conviction of bill clinton of impeachment. Ive done a lot of work for affordable housing, rental housing. I understand the rap on me and other liberals is we push poor people into homeownership. And its exactly the opposite of the case. We were trying to prevent those kinds of bad loans. And im beginning to see a substantial reduction in americas military budget and doing away with the notion that 65 years after world war ii we continue to have to protect the whole world. Reporter no concern that doddfrank on the one hand, goes too far, as some people say, and on the other hand, as others say, doesnt go far enough . No, i dont think in any area it goes too far. As to the regulators, i would have been worried if mitt romney had been elected because he would have appointed non regulators. But i think the people in place under president obama who helped write the law believe in it. The common theme in the bill, as i saw it, was to say to a great extent, people who make decisions that are risky, which should be done in the busess community, will not be able to escape the consequences of poor decisions because that way theyll make better ones. Reporter failures, regrets. Yeah. I should have voted for the first iraq war. George bush did that one very well. Id been skeptical. I was afraid that george bush was going to treat the first iraq war the way his son treated the second. In the housing area, i was late along with a lot of other people to see the housing bubble, but that didnt affect the actions. Reporter so you told me once when i asked you this question that you had a regret about when you came out, i think it was, or your general posture with respect to homosexuality and the timing of it. No. I wish i could have come out earlier. I dont think it would have been possible. Look, i regret that while the time i was closeted, i behaved irresponsibly and got hooked up with a hustler and made myself vulnerable to a guy who turned out to be a shakedown artist and got scammed by him into thinking that there was something personal there. That wasnt part of my governmental duties. I came out in 87. I now think if i had come out a couple of years earlier, it would have been better. There was a problem there because my colleague, gerry studds, was brought out in 83. We represented adjoining districts in bristol county, massachusetts. The notion that there would only be two gay members of National Parliaments in the world and they would represent adjoining districts, people would have been checking the water. Reporter are you amazed at the extent to which this country has turned around on this issue . Not amazed. Pleasantly surprised. Theres a pattern here that ive said before. I filed the first gay rights bill in massachetts history in 1972, in the legislature, one of the first in the country. In the 40 years since then i have consistently underestimated the pace of reform. But yeah, its gone a little faster than i thought it would. Reporter and yet, were in an institution here which is more toxic than ever, at least to all appearances. It got toxic when the tea party won. What happened was the American People were in a bad mood because of the crisis, because of the bailouts, for a whole lot of reasons and they elected in 2010 wild irrponsible extremists. And that caused the dysfunction. I dont think its permanent and institutionalized. I think it was the result of one election and i think as a result of the 2012 election its already beginning to recede. Reporter so the fiscal cliff will be resolved . Not right away. It will be resolved ultimately. The entrenchment of people who dont believe in government and the damage they have been able to cause because of that is diminishing. Reporter you havent been particularly pugnacious today, but has it cost you, do you think, to have been as pugnacious as you have been over all these years . No. This is probably the media stereotyping. I cant think of any achievement i tried to accomplish. I guess people arent as hypersensitive as that question would assume, by which i mean the notion that people would not go along with an important Public Policy because i hurt their feelings, i dont think thats true. Reporter what are you going to do next . Im going to write two books, i hope, one on liberalism, one on the history of the gay rights movement, give lectures for pay, do some tv commentary, and i ho teach. Reporter standup comedy. We once talked many years ago about, your fantasizing about it. No. Thats too hard. Thats too hard. Going before an audience of people who expect you to be funny is tough. Going before an audience that expect you to be boring and then being a little funny is much easier. I prefer easier. Reporter barney frank, thank you very much. Youre welcome. Warner barney frank may just stick around capitol hill a little longer. Shortly after paul finished that interview, there were reports frank may be appointed to temporarily fill john kerrys seat if the senator is confirmed as secretarof state. Ifill again, the major developments of the day a massive winter storm disrupted travel for tens of thousands of americans across the country and merchants hoped for strong afterchristmas sales to rescue the holiday season, as early reports show sales their weakest since 2008. Online we follow up on last ifill george bush has been in a houston hospital since seasoned, hes been treated for a bronchitis like cough since november. Online we follow up on last nights story about mammograms and ask for your views. Kwame holman tells you how to tell us. Holman weigh in on the debate over how often women should get Breast Cancer screenings. Theres a poll on our health page. There you also can review a range of professional opinions and find tuesdays report on mammograms. Plus, travel back in time one hundred years to 1913. Compare images of washington, d. C then and today. All that and more is on our web site newshour. Pbs. Org. Margaret . Warner and thats the newshour for tonight. On thursday, well have the latest on moves to resolve the fiscal crisis as the end of the year deadline approaches. Im margaret warner. Ifill and im gwen ifill. Well see you online and again here tomorrow evening. Thank you and good night. Major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by moving our economy for 160 years. Bnsf, the engine that connects us. And with the ongoing support of these institutions and foundations. And. This program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Captioning sponsored by Macneil Lehrer productions captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org