transatlantic. >> and this is the beauty of fiction. the history is fantastic and sociology is fantastic and all of these things together i will never prioritize one or privilege one over the other. but fiction can get into the small moments where whoever it happens to be, lieu polled bloom, turn of the corner. somebody brushing their teeth, somebody, you know, feeling a hand on your face, these things are that history doesn't necessarily write about but they are small moments that build up and they make the large moments. and so i believe that fiction can create history. >> rose: ian bremmer, near control roubini,. >> funding for charlie rose was provided by the following additional funding provided by these founders. and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. it has been five years since the financial crisis lead to a global economic meltdown. we have since seen a jobless recovery in the united states coupled with stagnation in europe. it is what the authors of a new report describe as the new abnormallal. joining me now nouriel roubini and ian bremmer, ian brehm certificate president of the your asia group and near-- in an article in this month's "institutional investor" magazine they warn that the world's economies still face structural problems. they also say that failure to deal with them could trigger another crisis. i am pleased to have both of them at this table together. welcome, welcome. >> good to see you. >> what a good idea to have you together and to write this together. so how do you know each other. how do you work together? you're an economist, he's a political scientist. >> well n many ways we're complementary because i would say in this world after 9/11, you cannot discuss economic and financial issues without understanding political and geo political issues. >> rose: and would you say. >> i would say the same thing. >> rose: you can't understand politic was understanding economics. >> historically you wouldn't bring the political scientist into the market discussion, if you have us by ourselves you are missing a large piece of the equation. we have been working together over a decade and it is fun and. >> rose: there is much to talk about. and we could sell this. so how do you see the world today and what is the new abnormallal? >> well, after the global financial crisis some people like-- said we enter the new normal. a time when economic growth and advanced economies would be low, dynamic. >> rose: you could never expect it to be like it was. >> exactly. our point is that this situation is one that is not a stable equilibrium, not even a stable diseck win lup, it is unstable diseq win lum. take for example the eurozone. you can't have monetary union without banking, fiscal reunion, either more integration or fragment says. so the situation here we face right now in the global economy, say in the eurozone is not an unstable disequilibrium therefore a new abnormallal that cannot be sustained. >> rose: what is the evidence of instable in china. >> the instability in china is that china used to be growing 10% for three decades. the growth now slowed down to only 7, 7.5%. in our view it will slow down further there are also social chiefages like rising inhuman wealth and equality, environment damage, air, water, land quality, the situation of inhe quaggity between coastal region growing fast and the poor center. so a country that in many ways is unstable. >> rose: what would you add to the new abnormallal with specific reference to europe and china. >> i think that the political instability in china is one of our least concerns in the near term. but the emerging market space as a whole is an extraordinary amount of instability. >> like what is happening if brazil. >> and in turkey and many other countries. some of that instability is the flip side is you've got a middle class that you are selling lots of products to. also middle classes that have very different kinds of demands from their governments and capabilities to insurance those demands are actually heard if not met. you also have the structural headwinds that are coming from a changing environment from the fed, from currency conflicts, from a lack of global leadership. the emerging markets we're hoping that the emerging markets are going to be driving the economy coming out of the financial crisis. what we realize that these emerging markets are actually much more unstable. and so it's not a stable equilibrium. it's not all downside but it's unstable equilibrium and that is why it is the new abnormallal. >> take one country, for example, brazil, an emerging market. what is the reality there that contributes to the new abnormallal? >> you know, brazil you've had for 10 years a view that this was the emerging market that could do no wrong. they have the demographics and they have the energy wealth and they have the land wealth and they have a very popular president and it's all true. but they also have millions of folks on the streets that are saying we demand different things from our government than we did historically. we demand educational spending that really befits the kind of country we want to become and we demand better security and how can you possibly be focused on, you know, building these stadiums half of which you will tear down after the world cup because you can't even continue continue to pay for them when you make it possible for us to get on a public busment and-- wile shets's responded in a way that shows that she clearly is very sympathetic to the people on the streets, so far her ability to make actual policy changes suddenly changed the steering on the boat. that's very limited. and the downside, we've seen demonstrations that show this kind of discontent before. we saw them with the occupy wall street movement. but they had to, in the united states and in developed economies if you have that kind of dissent you either get with the program and join the establishment and established political party or you get marginalized. in emerging markets like brazil, that's not true. >> okay. let me go through the trajectory of your own recommendations, fame and where you are today. i mean you became known as dr. gloom because you predicted the consequences of the subprime crisis, fair enough? >> yeah. >> then you began to be a bit more optimistic, yes? you did. >> i thought-- . >> rose: maybe it was because you were so gloomy that anything you said made you look optimistic. but you became more optimistic. >> well, i usually say i'm dr. realist rather than dr. doom and gloom. you have to look at the world. there is a severe financial crisis there has been a recovery, it's been patchy,. >> rose: go ba stock that, why has it been a nemming. >> it's been anemic because the financial crisis was one that there was too much debt leverage and risk taking in the private sector, households, banks, financial institutions even corporate. and result of the resolution of the finance kritions, it is a surge of public debt and deficits. historically when we had too much private and public debt there say painful period that can last over a decade where growth will be anemic, why. you have to spend less to save more, to gradually reduce the deficit and debt. and that implies an economic growth has been very weak in the united states n europe and japan and other advanced economies. and that's going to continue. and eventually that slow economic growth is associated with rising unemployment and also with social and political unrest. that's the situation now, is unstable disequilibrium is the new abnormallal. we have had a decade now of very low economic growth. >> you don't see huge bubbles are going to cause a worldwide financial recession. >> well, the policy response to the financial crisis monitor easing, it has been zero policy rates, quantitative easing, credit eating, has boosted our crisis, it has gone higher and higher and higher but has not lead to a strong economic recovery so over time there is a gap between wall street is doing well because it has-- and main street, where economic growth in the. is and europe and japan and emerging markets is still very week. >> is that because of the absence of demand or something else. >> on one side there is an absence of demand that is part of the story. on the other side there are structural problems of these economy that constrain supply. and then there is the burden of too much private and public debt that implies painful deleveraging. so in part we need that monetary easing to try to avoid and prevent this great recession from becoming a great depression but liquid sit a bit like a drug. a palliative. it does not absolve the disease. you have to do from the mantel of structural change t will reduce the productivity, for example n europe. if you don't do them liquidity just buys you time but creates own difference,. >> what fundamental structural reform are you talking about? >> well, it depends on the country. >> in the case of europe i think-- . >> rose: pick one. >> in the peripheral of the eurozone i would say first of all budget deficits were very large. stocks of public debt were very large. the trouble if you front load the fiscal austerity that makes the recession worse. >> rose: is that experimentation over you think in europe? >> they say now they will back load some of the austerity but a lot of the damage has been done. you already in the deep double deep recession in most of the eurozone. it is not just a recession in the case of greece and spain, and now the recession is spreading to the core of the eurozone, france, belgium, netherland, finland, now in a recession. then there are the structural problems. not enough innovation, not investing in to education, in training your liberal force for a global economy where you have to compete. >> they are there are knockdown effects. that are political-- political so you look at what happened in the eurozone. and you realize that the arab spring, you can point directly to the eurozone for actually starting. i mean where were the egyptians getting their tourist dollars from. where were they getting their aid dollars from. where were they doing their trade it wasn't with the united states. it was primarily with europe. you look at algeria, morocco, tunesia, that all fell off a cliff. well, you know, the united states can handle slower growth. japan canner handle zero growth for decades as we've seen. the germans can handle slow growth. the emerging markets have a much harder time. they're fundamentally less consolidated and yet they have populations that are capable. >> they can't handle it because their population will not allow them, you know, their demand on the government will be too intense for the government to withstand it? >> that's half of it. and the other half is that the government itself is less legitimized, less consolidated, it's less capable to respond to these sorts of shocks. >> so when you look at, let's go to the united states and come back. >> sure. >> this was also the cycle, the united states had the recession that it had. everybody talked about what needed to be done. you had a kind of revolution here in terms what the fed had to do. and what the u.s. government had to do. you had tarp and everything else. the recovery is under way. when you look at our future, it used to be people talked a lot about the decline of america. you hear that less now. does that match your own assessment of the united states economic future? >> i would say yes, in the sense, in absolute terms of course the united states is still growing slowly, unemployment rate is. >> -- >> well, there is a ceiling or not, we don't know. i think a lot of the unemployment rate is certainly cyclical but compare for example to the rest of advanced economies, you have to recognize that you have to do some things right. first of all we cleaned up our banks fast we are tarp and recapitalized them so there is credit growth. secondly we did very aggressive monetary easing, quantitative easing number one, number two, number three, that lead to -- >> and then we postpone the fiscal adjustment. instead take the united kingdom and eurozone. they have not cleaned up their banks there was not enough monetary stimulus, early fiscal austerity and that's why they are in a double dip recession is so in relative terms actually the united states is doing much better. the results longer time, of course-- there is a third manufacturing revolution that will affect through the united states. >> rose: those are good things. >> those are good things, they have been for the united states. >> i agree with all of that. i think the trade policy has been quite positive emanating from the u.s. with the pas civic and the europeans. i think that will matter. immigration policy had has a good chance of getting through, i think that is a positive thing. but the decline discussion that lord knows we had so much of in the united states, where you really see the impact of that changing is from china. you go to beijing and dow an i do after 2008, 2009, 2010, all of the chinese elites basically said the united states, we know that they can't get it done. it is inevitable decline, we don't believe. they're not saying that any more. and 4.7 billion dollars being invested in smithfield is to the because they need our pork manufacturing technology. it's because that's a good place for them to drop 5 billion. not europe, certainly not japan. and we need that. it's good for us. >> they don't have to buy treasuries they can buy our companies. >> they can buy our companies and bet on our market and we want them to do that. ultimately that is the kind of thing that can turn a vicious cycle. >> rose: you encourage that, it is good for china and the u.s. >> i think that is right. >> rose: do you agree. >> yes t is, even if paradoxically some people say even on the purchase of pork manufacturing, there may be some national security issues. the backlash of foreign investment coming from china is not just-- technology, you have some political forces would say even security will be something we have to worry about. i think that is a very anything difficult sign because there is a backlash against foreign direct investment in the united states, especially coming from countries like china or the middle east. >> rose: i want both of you to talk about at this moment, you know, the discover of the possibilities of natural gas and all of that and what it means to our economy, our future and our dependence on foreign oil. >> let me say what it is bad for. it's really bad for europe. the you look at german productivity in manufacturing numbers, you look at the input costs in that country compared to the united states. near can yell talks about how there is a manufacturing boom, infrastructure project boom and it will cost cluster which will have folk down effects for jobs for americans. the germans are going to get crushed by this. this is an economy in the eurozone after their elections that really can't handle that. and part of the world we already know isn't rebounding well. they're in the mid of a double dip recession, that's a problem. but for the u.s. there is no question. first it's real. it's to the being legislated against at the national level. it's being delegated to the state level, and the vast majority of those states want those jobs. most of those governors want the chinese to invest, same sort of thing. i believe if inn it. i think it's happening. the interest of the united states in having a significant lasting security role in the middle east which is already well lower than it was five years ago will continue to decrease. >> interest in having, are you now talking about the so-called pivot to asia or something else. >> the pivot to asia is not something we're talking about as much now because john kerry has already been on a plane about 10 times to the middle east. >> i agree. but -- >> what is it that is causing, you know, do you think the united states does not want to get involved, obviously the president has withdrawn from two wars in the middle east and has no great appetite for syria. >> i think 70% of americans saying they don't even want to provide any military support for the syrian rebels. >> indication of a new idea about our role in the middle east. >> it is. and as americans understand that they don't need the middle east for energy, that will pick up steam and momentum, and other countries will have to play much more of that role than they have historically. >> how about china in this aspect. they got a lot of money. they now buy most of the iraqi oil, correct, because -- >> 80%. >> 80% iraqi oil. they have a huge trade relationship with germany, right? are we going to see a kind of pervasive impact of the chinese economy on the economy's of other countries around the world and could that in the future have geo political repercussions. >> well, certainly china is already surveyed the second largest economy in the world in the next-- might become the first economy in the world in terms of size of gdp and of course what is happening in china is affecting global economic growth. for example there has been a slowdown of growth in china in the last few quarters. if that slowdown were to become hard landing, many people are going to suffer. first of all emerging asia. there is trading and providing inputs for the production of final goods in china. secondly commodity exporters from latin america to africa to asia, we're exporting a wide range of commodities to china. third of all europe, germany and even the united states are exporting lots of goods and services to china or doing foreign direct investment to-- so if a hard lining of china were to occur and i'm not predicting one, the consequence are going to be absolutely global economically and politically. >> we're between much more reliance, all of us, on an economy that is vastly more uncertain than the united states or the europeans or japan looking out over the long-term. but the geo political implications in the nearer term are of course traumatic. the chinese will become as you kind of imply the largest most important player pretty quickly in the middle east. they're the ones that will have all the economics to gain or lose. already ten years ago in sub saharan after africa china invested 20 million, functionally nothing. now it's the world's-- in africa comes from china. they overwhelmingly the most important country. >> rose: are there consequence force that. >> first of all economic consequences which is you will use chinese labor. will you have chinese inputs. will you do chinese 4g on telecom and that can crowd out western firms in those sectors which is interesting. but there are political consequences because the chinese tell you to jump in that environment, how high would be the appropriate response. >> you know f you and hi that conversation as we often do here at this stable, six months ago, we would have a different or not outlook on the future of erd won and turkey. >> slightly different. >> you and i both know erduwan pretty well. his response i think has been less temper ant than we would have liked. >> rose: with real damage, does it damage his potential member in the european union. >> they delayed that it almost did. i think more importantly it damages his ability to change the constitution in turkey to allow his success to the presidency to be meaningful. that's the real change. when you go and talk to the coaches, the they are saying you know what, we think we want to take a lot of money off the table in turkey right now. i have never heard them say that before. that's interesting. >> there is something positive about what is happening in turkey is that in many countries of the middle east, actually there say movement towards even morris lambic forms of government. the most radical groups are those that islam were taking cover while in the case of turkey theres with a sleepage of ird want to a more authoritarian regime to morris lambist forms of social norms and now the opposition is the secular state and other people are saying not. and therefore it's not compromising right now but if a compromise were to be reached, actually, turkey could move to the center and that's going to be a better stable. >> so the net effect might be positive. >> it's funny, i'm coming across more negative here because that big if so far he has not shown any willingness. he does have a strong base. and he is doubling down on them. and let's face it, when you talk to the seculars and they are significant, though nowhere near a majority in the population, their level of loathing for what he personally represents, it's not quite a feeling of putin but it's not usually far off. >> even within his own parties for example, the president is more moderate and it is not obvious that maybe will get to the president. >> let's talk about two other places. russia. putin realizes he can't have an economy dependent on energy. >> right. >> they have not done anything for diversifying their own economy, it is essentially based on oil, gas, not much diversification. there is ran saking, corruption, aging of population, it's becoming more author tearian and in spite of all prices above 100 per bottle, russia is going to grow 1.8% this year and the potential growth is not more than 3%. used to grow 8% within 1998, since the global financial crisis the growth rate has been extremely mediocre is so it's a failure. >> this is a guy that needs reform. he just completed his st. petersberg forum and his announcements were not about reform. it's we have a lot of money in our reserve fun so we will use that on infrastructure and open up a little bit the energy sector for easier investment terms. he's doubling down on the same stuff that has gotten him into this trouble for the last ten years it is a depressing outlook and it is a submerging market. >> rose: iran just had an election. >> like that election the iranian real up 15% just on the basis of that election. of course they didn't have much more down to go. have they been hurt by sanctions. >> they have, there is a new round of sanctions coming on board july 1. very hard to turn those around or off it took a long time to get there. going to compli cas case-- complicate negotiations process. but i think everyone understands it is go toing on the one hand there will be engagement this talks directly with this guy and move the neidle and make people feel more comfortable. on the other hand the sides are very far apartment. and the ability of the united states to get countries to maintain a policy aligned with israel in a tough, tough sanctions against iran, much harder when rowani is the president than ahmadinejad. >> rose: and the supreme leader is still the supreme leader. when you look at central bankers and their role, has their power grown, have they made mostly smart decisions, does it depend on where you are talking about? look at the european union, yes f you look at the united states, yes. >> well, the situation right now is one in which actually the power of central bank is rising because in terms of policies, probably monetary policies is the only game in town. on fiscal policy-- the ability back stop and bailout banks, financial institutions, houses, is constrained right now by this fiscal crisis. so if you have weak economic growth what can you do. you become even more extreme in your monetary policy. think of it we have gone to zero policy rates. then we have done quantitative easing, then credit eating, in some countries there is serious discussion today about having negative, negative interest rates. you would think that you would have negative interest rates this is becoming something that is unusual. so the powers increase on policy, on financial stability, and they're institutions that can by pass the police call system. you have to go to a parliament to make a decision about quantitative easing. that's why they have been delegate pog we are to central banks who try to jump start economic growth. >> for both of you, japan today prime minister. >> i'm actually reasonably optimistic about economics in the following sense. suppose they dofering, monetary easing this year, fiscal easing and then some consolidation next year. then they do structural reforms. then they join the transpacific partnership in the liberal itzed trade. if that happens the yen weakens, the stock market goes up, economic growth becomes positive. then the fiscal, your debt situation becomes more stable and if you do the economic reforms, potential growth rises, profitability rises and then japan stabilizes. that's the positive. the reason they do only the monitor and fiscal stimulus and they don't do the fiscal austerity, structural reform and one year of growth and then slump again to stagnation, depression and deflation. so we have to see. >> i think that the geo politics are driving japan to, you know. they've had many, many years of stagnation. and now they see china. and they understand. you know, number one these aren't their friends, it will be hard for them to invest, hard for them to compete, they are already bigger, they will be a lot bigger very soon. so-- comes in and after sort of a horrible succession of prime ministers that would do nothing and the democratic party of japan and says that's it, this is our last chance. we don't get this right we are in serious trouble. the first thing he does is not the three hours, the first thing he does is he says we're going to do transpacific partnership. i know it's hard on the agriculture lobby but we will join and liberallized trade. and we need to do this not just because it helps gdp. we need to do it because we need external pushing that will force us to liberalize and engage in structural reforms. that is a positive thing. so i feel good that this guy has -- >> to be encouraged by the fact that the chinese recognized that state capitalism cannot exist the way it has been in china, and that they have to change some of the rules that gave such a huge advantage to say capitalism. >> i think they will, they are seeing that. but they are seeing it slowly and they also understand just how incredibly entrenched the system is. it's one thing to understand that long term it's inefficient. you have 7.5% growth this year and everyone around you including yourself and your own family and friend its, that's how they -- >> there is also this question of china. which is that the president, i would have a conversation with the president interview for this program last sunday. and the point he made two sundays ago was that china can't-- has to recognize that if it, in fact, goes back to robert zell ig f in fact it wants to be a stakeholder it has to be a stakeholder. it can't do some things and say no, no, no. that's not our responsibility. that if it wants to be a great power it has to step up with all the rights and responsibilities of a great power. >> well, so far we're a poor country -- >> free riding on currency, on the current account. >> right. >> on trade, on the environment, are those days over. >> i'm not sure if they are over yet from their point of view if they can provide on the system for the time being without providing global public good, they do it for a while longer. >> i think they're starting the deal over. more than state capitalism which is harder for them to do. they see that the united states is to the going to carry all their water in the middle east, in the sudan. and if it is going to get done, the chinese grog have to play a role. now they're constrained. they's never done it before but when you have sheesh and ping saying you know what, we will do peace talks between the israelis and palestinians, great place to practice because they can try ten different things and it won't matter that does imply that they are getting some form of stakeholdership internationally. we should be hopeful about that opinions thank you, on that note, thank you so much. back in a moment. stay with us. colum mccann is here. he came to the united states from his native ireland in 19786. his ambition was to live in america and write a novel. seven books later his novel let the great world spin won the national book award in 2009. his new move sell called transatlantic. it spans two continents and 150 years and blends the real with the imagined. i am pleased to have column mccann at this table. welcome. >> i'm so pleased to be here. >> let me just confess, i am in love with this because of the characters i know, on the one hand, characters i'm familiar with. and ireland. this is such an old question. but what does it mean to be irish. >> that's-- that's the original question, that's what we're asking ourselves all along. i mean i suppose what it is, obviously we have this ancient and deep history. we have an ability to sing and an ability to tell the story, an ability, i suppose to live our lives outloud. and i quite like that. and the irish go everywhere. we seem to embrace a lot of different experience. also we have that sort of lurking sadness around. i know you used to interview frank mccourt. >> yes, i did. >> and frank had all of that. he had that big brawling kmum enthusiasm for the world and at the same time you could always tell there was something behind there that recognizes history, that recognizes difficulty. and you know we're sort of together as a nation. it's good to be over here and to be irish, actually. >> i never missed interviewing an irishman or irish woman, for example i just had graham mcdowell, the great fwofler, fantastic golfer. i men and constantly we've had whether which side they are on it didn't mat tore me to talk about the conflict to. talk about people who tried to solve the conflict like george mitch whole say character here, like tony blair, like. >> like graham himself. >> all of these people, i mean, the fact of the mat certificate that for 800 years we had difficulties ire inn iver land. and it came about in late 1990s that everybody decided after 30 years of complete flare-up of the troubles that this was enough. but nobody knew how we would come together. and if took, well, president clinton, to a point, senator mitchell and it took senator mitchell to go in there and listen to us. because you know how we clatter on, right. it is just like for 700 years. >> rose: you like to talk. >> exactly. and he went in and for two years, he sat in and listened to us and elise ened to every side. not just two sides but four sides, six sides, sometimes eight sides. elise ened to the women. elise ened to the children. and his beauty was that he embraced silence. he allowed people to fell him what they felt. and he didn't make any pronouncements, until, he had his son andrew and five months into the peace process, he said, i have to go home it is time. we've talked for years and years and years. it's 1998. on good friday, easter time, let's use the symbolism and let's have a peace agreement. and low and behold, he worked it, lots of people worked it. the canteen ladies worked it. the people who were driving cars, they worked it. blair worked it, hearn worked gerry adams worked it, mcguinness worked it but most of all the glue that held it together was this american glue that was provided by senator george mitchell. an incredible man. >> rose: and he's become, i assume a friend of yours. >> he has become a friend of mine. originally, funly enough, though, i went to him and his wife heather and i said i would like to write about them. and would they give me their blessing. and they said sure enough, fair enough. you know. >> rose: right. >> and then helter said to me well, when would you like to meet the senator. he said i don't want to meet the senator. and that was the beginning of a strange process. like you want to write. >> rose: you wanted to learn before i meet. >> exactly, yes. i wanted to-- what it ments to be somebody like that i went away and hid in my cubby hole and i imagined what it was to be him for about six months. and then i sent it to heather. and you know, she sent some stuff back to me, some fantastic notes, including the fact that he didn't wear brown shoes but black shoes which was a great one. but you know, all these fantastic details and we built it up and built it up until eventually she said to me, okay, we're ready to show it now to her husband. and then hi a five hour interview with him in his home. and then later, i spent three days with him in maine. and my admiration for him increased each time. and you know, i was looking for something to find, something, you know, off kilter. >> give you a little edge. >> yeah, and this man is too nice. >> and he said to you in the end, you're much too nice to me. >> well that's the thing. this is the perfect response from a man like him who is involved, whose's conscious, humble and gracious. what are you going it to say. he said you flattered me too much. he is not going to say anything else. i think it was the perfect response. but i think and i hope i caught him because history needs to catch him. and history needs to learn from people like him because it's not just about northern ireland as you know. i mean it's about columbia, you know. >> this ing weres an interesting point. you believe that fiction can capture history, you believe you learned as much about ireland from ulysses as you can any history book. >> for sure, for sure. ulysses, said as you know on june 16th, 1904, when my great grandfather was alive. now i never met my great grandfather, obviously. you go i know he was almost the same age as leopold bloom, the character in the novel. now when gi in and read about leopold bloom walking the streets of dublin i can actually walk in my great grandfather's bodies. and i can feel his blood pulsing through mine, to the because i knew him but because i newly polled bloom. and this is the beauty of fiction. not that, you know, history is fantastic. and sociology is fantastic and all of these things together i will never prioritize one or privilege one over the other. but fiction can get into the small moments where whatever happens to be, leopold bloom turning the corner, somebody brushing their teeth, somebody, you know, feeling a hand on your face. these things that history doesn't necessarily write about but they are small moments that build up and they make the large moments. and so i believe that fiction can create history. and also. >> i want to come back how you used it here. there are three story lines here, the second is frederick, why was he interesting. because in 1845, the great man went to ireland on lecture tour. >> you know, i only learned about this story a few years ago. at first when i heard it, that's incredible. frederick douglas the great abolitionist still a slave n 1845 takes a ship. he's not even allowed to go first class even though he has enough money to pay first class, takes a ship and lands in done leary in the port in dublin. and i thought wow, a black man going ireland in 1845, what was that like. well, he was taken in by the establishment. and the anglo-irish and they took him all around the country where he gave these fantastic lectures to great hoards of people. however, the huge crisis of conscious for him and i think this is where the story becomes really profound and beautiful and contradictory. and where fiction can sort of enter it. at the same time, the famine was unfolding in our country. and he saw worse poverty than he had ever seen in the south. the three million people enslaved in america, he thought well, the irish had it much worse off. and so his dilemma was do i speak out on behalf of the poor irish when my hosts are the ones who are sort of holding this, you know, undemocratic moment and place or do i chief to my people. and i was annoyed at him because you know, publicly he didn't speak out on behalf of the poor irish. at first i was annoyed. then i began to realize what a beautiful gesture it was to his own history. and to his own people. and also that you can't hold a million-- you can't take on the conscious of the world world. douglas was a most incredible person, you know, douglas and mitchell both. as you know, he spoke out on behalf of women's rights, a hundred years before anybody else. and he gave birth to the civil rights movement over here. and he was fantastic and what he did in ireland was pro found-- profound too. >> the third leg of this is the people from new foundland went transatlantic to ireland, the first, before charles lindberg, transatlantic flight. why them. john all koch and arthur wliten brown. >> i was just on a flight, you know, coming from dublin a couple of weeks okay and i was thinking this chicken here is very tepid. then i had to remember that the very flight, the very first flight was two ref men who had come out of that bath of dying that was the first world war 25 million dead. and they took a vickars by me. they redesigned it, replaced the bombays with petro tanks. in other words, took the war out of the machine, and they flew across the ocean for 17 hours, opened cockpit, the tip ends of their hair freezing and them slivering there, a little bit of brandy and a couple of sandwiches and here i was thinking yes, this chicken-- so i was-- how spoil dodd we get but it was a beautiful journey and a profound journey. and it was the linking of the continents through the air. they also carried the very first trains atlantic male. >> do they have fabric. >> cloth made in northern ireland, linen cloth. and held together with wood, couple of screws and two huge rolls-royce engines if you can imagine, two rolls-royce engine force 16 hours going-- imagine what your ear was feel like at the end of it all. >> now married with dad are these fictional characters, women. >> women. >> a family opinions yes. >> four generations. >> so what are you doing here? >> what is this art form? >> oh, well, sometimes i say people ask me what is your novel about and i say it's about 300 pages. because the thing is, that they come to it and they interpret it for you. and sometimes you leave these landscapes open so that people can walk into it. now if i'm too conscious of what it is that i want to say, if i'm lecturing or being didactic about my themes they suddenly become uninterestingment because what i want people to do is to live in the pulse of the moment. noferdz i want them to be on that flight. i want them to be in with mitchell. i want them to be farming ice with a woman in missouri in the 1850-- 18 '50s and 1860s. but if i were to talk about what i really want to do, i want to question what's real, question what's imagined, and then talk about history and talk about empathy and decency. so and also the role of women in all of this. which i think is incredibly important. because for a long time we have ascribed history to men. the men have taken over history, they believe they are the perpetrators in most of our historical events. but what about the women who were there. they're really the proper glue between all of these events. and they are the ones who, you know who got out in the streets and you know, they're the women in argentina who are walking with the photographs of the disappeared. they're the women who got out in the 1970s in ireland and said enough of this slaughter. enough of this blood and bone all over the place. i want my child back home. and mitchell knew this. mitchell was really well aware that he would have preferred to have 3,000-- 3,600 mothers talking about northern ireland because 3,600 of them lost their sons and daughters. he didn't want to listen to the man rattling on and on and on. and part of his beauty was he gave back our peace, our country to the people who were rightfully sort inform charge. >> and he knew they were tired of war. >> oh yeah. >> but everybody is tired of war. and in particular, women throw up their hands and say, but it seems to me that they are the ones to whom we must listen. if you take irish history and even recent irish history, mary robinson and-- have been so fantastic about, like, excising the wounds and saying okay, come on. let's put a "candle in the wind" owe. let's look at ourselves. let's have a more nuanced think about without we lap to be. and you know, i like actually strangely enough, i don't know what this means and i don't want the psycho analysts to put me on the couch with it but i love writing about women. and i love -- >> it is said that you write more, that you more than anybody, a they say that you can write in a woman's voice better than you can even write in a man's voicement and that no one, no man who writes does it better than you. >> wow, i done know about that. >> rose: let's assume that some of that is right. >> i don't think so. >> rose: but let's assume it is right with. why do you think is. what is it that gives you the talent to hear the experience and the voice of women and put them in a move snell. >> well, i love the idea of otherness. and i also, you know, i have a good life. i have a really good life. i have got three kids. you know, i live in new york. i come from ireland. i got a wonderful family. by i wake up in the morning and i don't necessarily want to be me. i like the fact that i can step away and become other. when i wrote -- >> you mean here. >> inside my head, and inside a book. when i wrote let the great world spin, i remember i was writing about a 38-year-old hook never the bronx. and my kid was come knocking on the door. and they said come on dad, let's go for a game of football in the park. and i would say, you know, in my imagination say to myself, i would say hold on a minute, i'm just turning a trick under the deggen here, give me five minutes and i will be out playing football in the park. in other words, what i like to do is go in and imagine what it means to be that person. and the more sort of anonymous that person happens to be, the more attractive they are to me. so the small little corners of human experience, if i can get there. >> so it's not hard for you. >> not hard for me at all. >> rose: at all to write in another one's voice. >> i'm tired of writers telling me how hard it is and that they have to hideaway. and i thought sure, it's hard. but a lot of things are hard. it's hard to do this. it's hard to be a coupon the street. it's hard to drive a subway train. >> rose: to do it well and all of them. >> exactly, yeah. so i don't like to talk about how difficult it is. i feel that i have a gift. and i have got to run with the gift. and if i can imagine what it feels like to be a woman living on park avenue or to be a woman farming ice in missouri, then let it be. and i don't want to examine, because if i know the secret behind if, i think i might be able to do it again. >> rose: i will slow new, back to george-- i want to do this now because i will forget about doing this. this is senator mcgovern talking about the very things that will you hear from him in the book, roll tape at this table. >> the queen was knighting me, it's honorary because only a british citizen can use the title. and by an awful coincidence at the time we were meeting with the queen, the process in belfast was collapsing. and when i came out and had a press conference, of course, the reporters said how do you feel about being honored for a peace process that just collapsed. and i said of course i feel very badly. are you embarrassed,. >> yes, of course i'm very embarrassed. instead of celebrating my wife and i went back to the hot told watch the news on television which was all bad news about the events in belfast. and that night i got a call from the british secretary of state and from the prime minister of ireland,-- . >> rose: secretary of state for northern ireland. >> who asked me if i would go back. and i really didn't want to do it because i had been there for years. and i talked about it with my wife. and finally she said to me, she said you have got to go back because if you don't, and the war resumes, you will never forgive yourself. and that really was the most telling argument, that i was in a position where i could possibly be of assistance. and if i said no and the war resumed, i would have it on my conscience forever. so even though there wasn't much prospect at the time and most people felt it couldn't work, i felt i've got to give it my best effort which i did. >> rose: do you think he is the best embodiment of what a politician can and should be. >> yeah, i think he's an amazing man. i think if we had a number of george mitchells we would be so much better off in terms of managing what it means to be other, being empathetic, being progressive, having a conscience and doing all these things. how he survived in the world of politics is sort of amazing to me. but he had that sort of old new england sort of dignity and charm and he doesn't attempt to -- >> but it should be said that he probably could have been there as long as he wanted to. the people of maine loved him, if he could return to the senate, he turned down the supreme court, you know. thought about a whole range of things that he could have done. he also was a special enjoy-- envoy for president obama into the middle east. >> right. >> rose: this novel ends with obama's 2011 trip to ireland. >> right. >> rose: why that, what does it mean? >> well, first of all, i start out with, or chronologically it starts out with douglas coming to ireland. i wanted to finish it and bump it right up against the present. i don't like the idea of writing an historical novel. and i believe that history is relevant to today and also history changes according to the present moment that you are in. and it seemed to me that bun of the greatest moments in contemporary irish history was the week when the queen of england and president obama inside 1 week both went to ireland. and they were embraced. they were adored. and o bomb-- obama went there he said he dropped a post fee from the obama and people loved him. >> bama. >> but the thing is people were terrified by the queen's visit. and they thought okay, there's going to be riotsing lots of things going on. no, she came and she bowed her head at the garden of remembrance. she was embraced by the irish people. she spoke in a rich. and it was a crystallizing moment for what mitchell had done. it was to say this peace process in place. who is to say that it won't, things won't flare up again but i believe they won't. we'll have isolated moments of violence and maybe some molotov cocktails and questions about flags and so on. but i believe that that week when obama and the queen were there, that was a total justification of this whole transatlantic series of relationships. and also, i have to say that i hope american people can see that america was going outwards in an extraordinary way. everybody talks about this country being insurance lar, about its politics like shrinking inwards. but the truth of the mat certificate still to this very day we're going to, we're trying to help out in all sorts of places, especially the middle east. but in northern ireland it was achieved and everybody has to take a bow because peace is a great story. but it's also i think the hardest story to maintain. >> you have become a huge sort of apostle for storytelling. >> yes. >> doing what? >> i'm involved with this brand-new charity which is called narrative four. and basically what we want to do is we want to bring kids from all different parts of the world from lifea, belfast, new orleans, from chattanooga from chicago, bring them together and not just have them tell their stories but have them inhabit the shoes of others. so they exchange stories with one another. in what we call a leap of radical empathy. so that we are hoping that we can expand the lungs of its world by having thee kids get together, telling each other their essential stories. and then trying to understand one another. and maybe in that way we'll, you know, see a if you george mitchell come along. we'll see a new douglas come along. and you know, and there's lots of people doing really good things in the world as you know. and this is just one small thing where we bring lots of artists together. salomon rushdie's involved, sting has been involved. we have all sorts of writers helping us out, ian mcoun, about 106 writers came together, gave us a free piece of fiction to use. alexander heymont, all these fantastic people. louisa rayes is my partner in crime, a mexican novelist who lives in chicago. we created this this with a number of different people. and it's really working. >> rose: finally there's this. a teacher from newtown, connecticut, after the terrible tragedy there contacted you. and said that he had a sign-- assigned let the great world spin as a reading protect-- project. pick up the story. >> this man's name is lee canlock. probably, you know, i have a huge regard for teachers. my wife is a teacher. my great friend frank mccourt was an incredible teacher. this man is an incredible teacher. he teaches at the high school in newtown. and he saw firsthand what happened to not only the young kids but the older kids, the ones who survived, the ones who baby sat the kids, the ones who lost their brothers, their sisters. and he's interested in healing n this notion of empathy. and he feels that he can do it through literature. and which is an incredible thing. the fact that lit cure can matter. your tory matters. and so amazingly, and i have to say you know it was one of the greatest days of my literary life. he got in touch with me and said he wanted to use let the great world spin for the kids in order for them to navigate their grief in relation to what had happened. so they could talk to counselors, talk to themselves, talk to other people. and then he invited me up to the school where he,. >> were you ready to go in the beginning or reluctant. >> no i was ready to go. i was ready to go. the minute he said it to me i was ready to go. i was scared. i didn't know what i would say. in the end, i didn't have to say all that much. the quides all said it they said we were in a dark place. we're looking for a bit of light. you know. how do we achieve a modicum of light. how do we think our way out of this. how do we ago our way out of this. how do we become better people. and it was extraordinary. the lech tris knit that classroom as i listened, so i was lucky. i wasn't talking to them. hi nothing to say. >> i learned how to listen to them. and it break my heart. and but it healed it too. in certain ways. they got a chance to talk and they will keep on talking. they will be talking for the rest of their lives, they will have to. as long as somebody is there to listen to them, i think that's the big achievement. >> listeners play a role. >> absolutely. >> transatlantic a novel by colum mccann, winner of the national book award and the book he won the national book award for was called let the great world spin. thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org