And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Investigative journalist Annie Jacobsen has written what she says is the definitive history of the militarys decades long experiment with mental powers like esp. Her new book reveals how the government used psychic spies during the iran hostage crisis and the cia search for psychedelic mushrooms. It is called phenomena, the secret history of the u. S. Governments investigations into extra Sensory Perception and psycho kin easis. Annie, good to have you back on this program. Thank you. Can you see this, jonathan . This is like, you write these texts that are like theyre so dense. It is a big story. It is a big story, but thats a lot of research though. You just keep going at it. Thats the joy of it. I mean i interviewed a lot of scientists. All of the original cia scientists and the dod scientists and a lot of the psychics themselves. Yeah. So you just write in it when youre doing that. And you heard what . I mean this is a quest story. This is really about mans quest for knowledge, like what are we capable of. And it is also a story of science versus the supernatural, and that makes a lot of people really uncomfortable. You believe . Gertrude smidler was the harvard psychologist, experimental psychologist that created these two terms to answer that question. The sheep and goat . The sheep and the goat. I read about this, yeah. The goats are the firm skeptics, the people who think it is utter nonsense. The sheep on the other hand are open to the idea of anomalous powers. I would say i lean sheep. Because of research. Because of research and i think life experiences. What did you see in the research that pushed you deeper into the sheep category . You know, i have a lot of respect for the cia. I think that they are a National Security asset to all of us, and it was the cias research that i found the most pro found, that i found really pushing the boundaries of what is known. And the cia documents that were declassified as part of this book indicate that the cia believes that they use this term, it is inescapeable. They believe that the phenomena is real and that you cannot escape the reality that phenomena does exist, albeit in a fickle manner. What have they seen . What have they witnessed that makes them believe that the reality in some form of that is inescapeable . Most of the cia work falls on the axis of divination. This idea and this is as old as the hills, okay, that you could see the future, that you could know the unknowable. And the psychics who were working for the cia in the 70s predicted a lot of situations and also saw things, and were talking, you know, names, places, situations that could not be known in any other manner, particularly looking into the soviet union, looking behind the iron curtain, in places where we could not have assets that were humans. And so that kind of really opened up, it kicked down the doorway to this original research. Are there any things, for lack of better word, any data, any evidence, any victories that you can point to that we have won, things that we have been benefitted by, protected from because of this extra Sensory Perception on somebodys part . The specifics idea tail in the book in a chronology because you can see how it is an ebbing and flowing, and thats always what drives the scientists crazy, the scientific skeptics. You mentioned iran. I mean there are some inescapeable evidence that the psychics that were working at the time were able to the iran hostage situation, were able to determine the location of certain hostages, and even the joint chiefs of staff themselves wrote a letter to the Program Manager saying, this is actionable intelligence. Thats a little scary though. If you could know that, what else could you know . You know, i try to focus less on like, this is exactly the truth and more asking the reader the question, what is the truth. I mean where do we go with this kind of knowledge . What i found most illuminating was going into this thinking that this whole program had been buttoned up in the 1990s, and thats not the case. It is back today with the dod, and it is occurring under a different rubric, all under the idea of anomalous mental cognition. This idea of perception, the ability to see the future, the ability for soldiers to foresee where an ied might be planted. These kind of situations led to a resurgence of a new series of programs across dod. Im going to back up just for half a second here, go back to something you said a moment ago when you said very clearly that you have and i dont want to misquote you, but you said you have Great Respect for the cia. Increasingly, as you well know and im using the word increasingly. I havent done independent research on this, but it seems to me for a variety of reasons there are fellow citizens, if not a majority certainly many, that dont share that point of view because of a number of things that the cia has done over the last number of years that has eroded that trust. What do you say to americans watching this program tonight, fellow citizens who dont have the same trust in the cia that you have . Well, i mean in all four of my books i touch upon serious work done by the cia. And if you you know, no one is perfect and no agency is perfect, but if you consider the fact that the cias job is to give intelligence to the president , thats their job, most of that intelligence is working to keep america out of a war situation. And i think thats where the curve ball came in, no pun intended. But, you know, agencies make mistakes, and on balance when you look at when i look at that agency from a journalists point of view, from the perspective of a historian, looking at all of these thousands of declassified document also that i have looked at, i would say on balance that that agency works very hard to selfimprove. And speaking of the cia and donald trump, what do you make of the terse, tense relationship between mr. Trump and the cia and wh does that important portend for the country if our leader and our chief spy agency cant seem to get along . I noticed the word portend, so i feel like theres a little sheep in you there. Yeah, yeah. But all jokes aside, i think it is super dangerous. I mean i think that the intelligence that and, again, im referring to a body of document also that ive looked at over many years, and i think that the Intelligence Community as a whole is working, must have a terrific working relationship with the president. I have never seen anything like this current situation, and the individuals that i, you know, work with that are retired intelligence agencies i think share that same fear. Theyre scared, too . I would think so, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Back to the book, congratulations. I just read mr. Spielberg, and in steven, his company has bought the rights to this. Together with blumhouse, so you have these two power houses of cultural influence, and i think thats whats great. I think, again, i would say going back to this is a book, this is a story, this is a subject about the reach else of knowledge, and i think thats important personally, politically, societally, culturally, i think thats what television is amazing at doing. I think that the idea of discounting anything, being such a firm skeptic and also one of the problems i have with skeptics is that they tend to kind of make people feel intellectually inferior. If they even broach this subject. I find that unuseful. I think that tv is a great way into that world for many people because they can feel comfortable in a narrative, and then they can begin to create their own ideas about things. I think i know what you mean when you say unuseful, but what do you mean by that . It is insulting. I mean it is insulting. I dont want anyone to insult my intelligence, and im sure many people feel the same wayand. And so people button up and they get quiet about arenas that they find intellectually exciting when theyre told, thats actually, you know, some kind of inferior thinking. I mean, look, the real problem about all of the phenomena is that and here is where the scientists have a legitimate point, is that, you know, ever since the scientific revolution science is based on five processes. And when those processes are not repeatable, then you must change your idea about the hypothesis until you can move toward general theory. Esp, psycho kinesis, these concepts have never been able to move out of the realm of hypothesis, never moved toward general theory because theyre not repeatable. Science is absolutely correct in pointing that out, but that doesnt mean that it should all be thrown out in my opinion. And yet you had no fear of us laughing at you by spending this much time to approach the subject matter. I mean ive written this is my fourth book. Maybe i couldnt have written this book as book number two on the heels of area 51, but i have been writing about hard science. When i wrote the pentagons brain about darpa, about hard science in the military, it led me into this. I write about that in the book, about how the two subjects go like this, and thats what i find super interesting. Again, reaches of knowledge. Finally, on a goingforward basis, having nothing to do with what they have done heretofore, the millions of taxpayer dollars spent to find this phenomena, is this a good use of taxpayer money in the coming months and years . I dont see why not. I mean i really dont, because i think when you truncate programs, when you cut them off at the knees, then you have a big seesaw. I mean, you know, whereas if you can allow things to kind of if you Fund Programs in a neutral and balanced way, they tend to have more success scientifically. Thats my experience of, again, looking at a lot of documents. Has the budget for this kind of phenomena research been increasing over the years, stayed about the same or decrease . I ask that in light of the fact of mr. Trump now trying to dramatically increase defense budget. Im curious. Has it gone up, down or stayed about the same . These programs fall into what are called special access programs, sap programs. The budgets are so tightly control and skewered i dont think i could make an accurate assessment either about what was spent or about what is being spent. Thats an honest answer and i appreciate you for giving honest answers. Annies new book is call phenomena, the u. S. Governments research into esp and psycho kinesis. Congrats on that spielburg deal. Thank you. Up next, actress Elizabeth Marvel. Stay with us. We welcome Elizabeth Marvel to this program. Is that your real name . It is a great name. It is. Smiley is a great nay, but marvel. You may know her best as two highpowered politicians, Heather Dunbar president ial candidate in house of cards and president metrofocuelect keane. Here a new season of homeland. I have been at this a long time. At what . What is it you think you have been at exactly . No, i really want to know. Keeping america safe. I see. And this qualifies in your opinion . What does . Feeding me bad intelligence, leaking false reports to the press, coercing me into cabinet choices antithetical to the policy goals that got me elect. Seriously, where do you see this goes . Do i come around to your point of view . Do i give up, roll over . Do you see me resigning . I am the next president of the united states. 60 Million People voted for me. Who voted for you . Ouch that sounds kind of trumpian. I beg to differ, i beg to differ. It sounds a little trumpian. Who voted for you . Yes, but she won the Electoral College and the popular vote. Oh. Im just saying, im just saying. Which leads me to question number two. Im so glad you won. Do we really have to wait like three years to get you in . You know. Can we get can we make it happen like overnight . That you cannot make happen, but i dont think any of us have to wait three years for this president to selfdestruct. Let me start with the real and then come to the fake, although ill imagine what is fake and what is real with this guy. It is kind of hard to know. What did you make of what is happening in the real white house . Well, you know, you have an unrepentant misogynist to begin, lets start there. You know, i mean it is it is like playing a game of whamamole when you look at this presidency. You take your eye off one thing and some other crisis presents itself, which may be part of their woeful strategy. But, you know, it is am tour hour and it is terrifying. It would be surreal and almost hilarious if so many lives werent at stake. Yes. I think whenever life imitates art, art imitates life, who knows on any given day . But i think you could not ask for a better role where the messaging is concerned. Yes. Than to be playing the character that youre playing now. Would you agree with that . I would agree with that. I think having a woman playing the leader of the American Government at this moment is fantastic because i also believe that if you can see it, you can be it. I think having young women seei galvanizing and empowering and important, because also this character is a woman that believes in public service. She is a public servant, and i think thats something that were also missing. We are seeing someone in office at this moment who is an opportunist and doesnt have a relationship to governance as being a servant of the people. And so theres no discipline and theres no dignity. I find myself making that distinction, which it is a brilliant point on your part, but i find myself more and more making that distinction when i talk. I make actually two distinctions, one between politicians and public servants. I take your point because theyre not the same thing. They can be, but theyre not the same. Thats right, thats right. The other distinction i find myself making which echos a bit of what you were saying earlier is the difference between the American People and the American Government. I find myself making that distinction to foreigners when im traveling around the world when people ask you, how did you guys do this . I say theres a difference between the American Government and the american of course the American People elected the president , but theres a difference in the American Government and the American People. I take no pride in saying that, but it is the case. I hear your point about the public service, which is a noble service. I couldnt agree more, which is why when i was researching this part i did a lot of research on shirley choicisolm because she is unbought unbought and unbought. Oh, it is so good. Boy, do we need shirley right now. But because she was someone who was dedicated to public service, and this understanding of stew wardship, that we leave it better than we found it. I feel we have strayed from that path woefully as americans. I mentioned these two powerful roles you have played of late. Are you drawn to these power roles . Did it just happen that way . Honestly, it just happened that way. I didnt you know, i go where the work is. Yeah, yeah. Because in my life, im a working mother from brooklyn, and im a hippy. So, you know, it is but it is wonderful playing these women who are strong and smart and, you know, not victims, not girlfriends. It is fantastic. The writing is fantastic. I couldnt ask for anything more. Speaking of a hippie, if this had come out in your campaign for president in the tv series you might not have gotten elected. Then again trump would have maybe you would have appointed. Seriously. In your real life, you are a hippie. Is it true you were following around the grateful dead and got kicked out of school . What is the true story here . That is the true story, my friend. Yes, yes, i have a little road on me. Okay. Yeah, i was a visual arts student. I went to an art school in high school, and got in a little trouble like you do when youre a teenager and not being closely supervised. And i did, i followed the dead around. Wow. It was fun, it was great, it was kind and sweet and lovely, and it was a time that you could do that. Yeah. You know, the 80s, as crazy as the 80s were, that was a surprisingly kind and generous environment that i found myself in as a teenager. I love talking to these dead heads, and i have talked to many over the years. What was it in their music that you were connecting to . What was it that you were i think joy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joy, absolutely. And i think the thing that people do respond to is it is not just the music, it is the community. I see. And the kindness and generosity of the community. Yeah. And i was a wayward, lost teenager that could have gone down many bad roads, and i landed in a very sweet place. Yes. How did the arts end up choosing you or you chose the arts . I dont know how it happened, but how did that you know, it is interesting. As i said, i was a visual art student and that was always what spoke to me. Yeah. I am rather introverted by nature, although here i am talking to you introverted in brooklyn . There are. I didnt know there were introverts in brooklyn. There are. Our son we call the mayor of red hook because he is a very social gentleman. Okay. But when i my goal was to go to cooper union or rizzy, one of the great art schools, but because of my challenges as a teenager i didnt have my portfolio ready when it was time to apply. I bumpmed around london, i ende up landing in london out of high school and i saw a performance that Vanessa Redgrave gave because it was a cheap ticket and i didnt know what to do with my afternoon, and i went in and saw this Eugene Oneill play and i sat in the fifth row and i watched her. It was a moment where she was alone on stage, and she just brushed the hair from her face and i saw these ripples like water go across her face, and 30 years of the life of this character that she was playing passed and i had never seen anything like it. It was like i i can only imagine when people first saw houdini escape from the milk can or one of those fetes that you cant understand how they did it, and i became obsessed. Up until that moment i didnt know from theater, i knew nothing, and i wanted to know what that was. I had heard of juliard because my high school was a Feeder School because there were lots of musicians in my high school and i knew there were no academics and i knew all you had to do was go in and audition and maybe you got in. So i flew to new york and i auditioned and somehow i got in. Its been i have been an actor ever since. It is the only job ive ever had. I wouldnt say somehow. Youre gifted, thats how you got in. Im thinking as youre telling that story if the combination of Eugene Oneill and Vanessa Redgrave cant do it for you then what cant, absolutely. You cant do better than that. No, it was an incredible moment. Wow. Let me close on this note. What then, particularly in this moment, well circle back to where we began. What then in this moment do you see 30 years later your role as an artist, a citizen artist . What do you see that role as these days . You know, it is interesting. I see us, i see artists as the first responders. And when the proverbial crap hits the fan, we are there to be of service, to tell the story, to bring a balm to soothe, to provide catharsis and, you know, not to make our work any more important or less important, but just that there is a great importance to it. Well, youre doing great work and im honored to have you on the program. Thank you. I like the name smiley, but i would take marvel. Smileymarvel, there you go. Thats too much. Way too much. Honored to have you o thank you for coming to see us. Thank you so much. Thats our show for tonight. Good night from l. A. Thanks for watching and as always, keep the faith. For more information on todays show, visit tavis smiley at pbs. Org. Im tavis smiley. Join me next time for a conversation with carl and rob reiner. Thats next time. See you then. Captions by vitac www. Vitac. Com and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Today on americas test kitchen, julia and bridget make a spectacular korean rice bowl. Adam shows bridget his pick for the best spider skimmer. And dan makes julia the ultimate korean Fried Chicken wings. Its all coming up right here on americas test kitchen. Americas test kitchen is brought to you by the following. Fisher paykel. Since 1934, Fisher Paykel has been designing