And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. George lakoff for years has been studying political messaging and how people digest the message of public discourse. He is an author and Professor Emeritus of cognitive science and linguistics at u. C. Berkeley. He joins us to talk about how failing to understand unconscious thought and moral world views has frustrated democrats and progressives as they try to counter the trump message with basic logic. Professor lakoff, good to have you on the program. A pleasure to be here. Linguistically, size up donald trump for me. Its not just linguistically its mentally. He knows how not just to speak but how to change your brain and affect your brain very effectively. Hes a super salesman, and hes very good at it. You need to know a little about your brain which is ideas dont float in the air. Theyre in your neural circuitry. If you have a world view, your understanding of the world in general, then thats a lot of neural circuits. Once theyre fixed they become what you might call a neural filter. You can only understand what your brain allows you to understand. So if you have only one world view, youre stuck to understand things that fit that world view. And if information comes in that doesnt fit it, it will be not noticed, ignored, attacked. People choose a world view, do they not . Not necessarily. Often theyre brought up with it. I suspect that donald trump was brought up with the world view he has. When i say choose, he could expands his world could expand his world view if he wants to. I dont think so. This is not something you consciously will. Remember, about 98 of thought is unconscious and beyond conscious control. Now, many people, probably most, have more than one world view at once. What is a moderate . A moderate is somebody who has mostly one, if youre a moderate conservative, you have some progressive views on various different things. Youre a moderate progressive, you have some conservative views on different things. That means you have two different world views but about different things. Neurally that means those two world views contradict each other, and the activation of one weakens the other. So if youre if you can use language to activate your world view in sboelsomebody else, you power. Tell me how trump connects his mental, his world view, with his linguistics. First, repetition. Right. Over and over and over. A language means something, it activates whats called a frame in your brain which is part of a world view. So a good example when george bush first came into office, first time he talked about tax relief which says taxation is an affliction, and the good guys try to get, you know, rid of that affliction. The bad guys want to keep it there. Then every day after that, he repeated it, repeated it, and repeated it until the New York Times started using tax relief on its front page, and the democrats took tax relief for the middle class and so on, taking the conservative understanding of taxation. And this happens a lot. Take regulation trump says he wants to get rid of regulation. What does that mean . From a corporate point of view, a regulation is something that imposes on your freedom, is a burden and its costly. But from the point of view of the public, regulations are there to protect you. Theyre there to protect you against unscrupulous corporations in all kinds of ways. And whats happening right now is that the republicans in congress are getting rid of regulations in the food and drug administration. For example, regulations on proving that drugs are effective and that they work. 90 of the tests usually shows that most drugs that dont work. So you get rid of those, you get 90 of the drugs out there that are supposed to be healing you not healing you. They get rid of environmental regulations on clean water, clean air, and things like that. And so on. You get rid of regulations in the sec. What does that mean . It means fraud is made okay. So what happens is behind the scenes, regulations are getting rid of but theyre not called protections. If you said, look, you know, trump said hes going to get rid of 75 of the government protections in the following areas food and drug, you know, clean water, clean air, how do you feel about being poisoned . Right . Very different understanding. Uhhuh. Is my mind so weak, though, that when i hear trump say the same thing to me over and over and over again or treat the same thing over and over and over again that i have no ability to resist that . I have no cognitive ability to process that differently . You have to resist it all the time in order to stop it. Most people dont. So it will happen over and over. People, he would say crooked hillary, crooked hillary, until people thought she was crooked about something when she wasnt. You know, you get the the idea of the crooked press. The press that is lying to you, lying, lying press. The press isnt lying fake news, fake news fake news all the time until people get it as the fake news. Most of the population has no choice about that. Most of the population cant consciously resist all the time. Why . Because thats how brains work. If you have language that activates an idea which is physically there in your brain, every time it was activated, it gets stronger. The more its repeated and activated, the stronger it gets. Are you telling me that even though i have a basic fundamental sense of right and wrong, my mom and daddy raised me that way, that if i hear a lie enough times it will overtake whats right and wrong, whats just in the world . I dont know about you personally, but with a lot of people the lying doesnt matter wow let me tell you why hold up. You got me that one. The lie doesnt matter to a lot of people . Why . Look, think of it this way. All politics is about morality. Its about if the politician says do what i say, its because its right, not because its wrong. They dont say do it because its evil or doesnt matter. That means your notion of whats right for you is important here. Your very identity is defined by whats right for you. You want to think of yourself as doing right all the time. That is the deepest part of your identity. It is the highest truth for you. Now if you have what i call strict morality, what trump has and what the republicans mainly have, what that says is that that view of the world which a view having to do with domination, that view of the world defines who you are. And its the higher truth. So if something comes in and doesnt fit that and you happen to know its a lie, it doesnt matter because the higher truth that defines your very identity is more important. Okay. You have completely undermined every every belief system ive ever had about the fact that our mind is our mind connected to our heart is what drives us. Its the strongest part of who we are. Now youre telling me that my mind is so easily manipulated. Some peoples minds are. Yours may or may not be. Most people are not consciously looking for what is going on opposing them. Most people dont think about other peoples world views. One of the things about being a progressive is that you care about other people and empathize with other people. And you want to know the truth. If you want to know the truth, you worry about what other people are thinking and whether something is true or not. If the issue is something very different, if you think of a family life as being merit of father knows best, he being an issue of father knows best, he has authority over you, he has physical authority, tough love. If his children dont obey him, he tells them whats right, then they they should be punished. They have to be punished. Its his duty to punish them until they, you know, try to avoid the punishment, do what he says, and then if he they do that, if they do that and dont do what just feels good, then they can go out in the world and be prosperous. Theres a logic there. If you are not prosperous, then that means you dont have discipline which means you cant be moral and you deserve your poverty. Thats the view that people who are poor are lazy. Thats a very common view in strict father thought. Theres more to it than that. In that theres a view about the world in general that says this strict view of the world is the natural view. If its natural, if its the way the world actually functions, theres a hierarchy. It says that the people who have won out are the people that are the best people. That gives you a hierarchy of whos better than who. Religions have won out god above man. We have a conquering nature, man above nature. Nurture is there for us to get whatever we can. The strong above the weak. You have to have a strong country, et cetera, if youre going to beat out other countries. The rich above the poor. Well, theyre disciplined, they deserved it. Employers above employees. Theyre rich enough to be employers. You have western culture above nonwestern culture. Adults above children. And 21 states, teachers and coaches can beat children with sticks if they dont just show them respect all the time. You have america above other countries. America first because were better. You have men above women. Whites above nonwhites. Christians above nonchristians. Straights above gays. That is that moral hierarchy because it says who has won out. That moral hierarchy defines virtually all radical republican positions on every issue. Its one issue, its not whether someone is homophobic or not whether someone is a racist or a sexist or you know, islamophobic. Its all of them together. They fit together seamlessly. That is what is behind the kind of america and americans who vote for trump. And its a very powerful kind of thing. If i take everything that youve just said, i could take that to mean let me back up. You gave a wonderful and powerful and poignant definition what it means to be a progressive, at least as i see my progressivism. Right. But if i take what you offered as a definition to the nth degree, it sounds to me that progressive should be less caring and more caustic. In other words, if we want to win, if we want to defeat donald trump, then we should take on more of his ways. But thats not the kind of people we want to be. No, absolutely not. What do we do then . Heres what you do okay. First of all, its important to understand that there are differing kinds of conservatives. There are some who are moderate, that is who happen to have some progressive views on something or other. Some have ingroup care who care about their family or neighbors, the members of their church, in the army, members of their platoon. You know, they care about certain people, and it could be their community, their neighbors, a larger community. Its important to see this. And i have experience i grew up around such folks. When it comes to your being in your in group, they take care of you. If theres a forest fire, theyre out there manning the hoses. If theres a flood, theyre swinging the sandbags. They may have political views that are very different, but when it comes to care in their community and care for their neighbors, theyre right there. And thats real care. That is where you can discuss things with them and appreciate who they are. So when i was teaching this stuff, students would come to me and say, thanksgiving is coming, im going to encounter my grandfather, were going to have that grand fight again. I hate it. I cant stand the very idea of it. I say dont fight with your grandfather. Your grandfather loves you. Tell you what ask your grandfather one question what is he most proud of that hes done for other people without consideration for himself. Ask that question. 100 of the time people will come back and say, my grandfather has done three really terrific things. I disagree with him on other things, but i have to say hes done some really good things for people. I say only talk to him about those things, and keep talking to him about what it means for him. What that does is activate care and nurturance in his brain. That works for a neighbor who is otherwise a caring person. Thats different from talking to politicians who are pushing a particular partisan agenda. Absolutely. Im all for trying to find Common Ground, but that assumes that theyre interested in finding Common Ground versus pushing this agendas down my throat. They are not interested in finding Common Ground, so there are many things you have to do depending on who you are. Im involved in starting a Citizens Communication Network to get people to think and say protection instead of, you know, regulation. Dont say regulation, say these are protections, and so on. There are hundreds of things like that. Always shift the viewpoint to the public. For example, Public Resources that go through the government are necessary for private enterprise in private liv. You cannot have a business if you dont have roads and bridges and airports and sewers. If you dont have things that are given to you like science and technology, in Computer Science and satellite technology, gps systems, and cell phones. These are supported by our government and your taxpayers. Theyre given to you by that. You dont have medical technology and new drugs because the nih has done it, unless you have Public Resources. What the conservatives are trying to do is get rid of Public Resources. That is what is happening every day in congress. Getting rid of Public Resources and public protections. Absolutely crucial, and its being hidden because people are criticizing donald trump. Now what donald trump is doing is taking making a front for that. And criticizing donald trump directly is like saying dont think of an elephant. I wrote a book called dont think of an elephant. Or nixon saying, i am not a crook. You negate something, and it makes people think of it. It strengthens the people youre arguing against. What you need to do is argue for always frame things from your point of view when you start. So suppose youre in the press and you have to cover trump. Youre in the media. What do you do . And ive been on in the program, on the media. And thats what i said. I said, look, first of all, is he going to try to divert attention for someone, start with the real issues confronting the country and confronting him first. And tell the truth about those. Then when you see a diversion like is he talking about meryl streep this week or something else, tell the truth about that diversion first. Then say, oh, by the way, hes tweeted the following which doesnt fit the facts in this way. You say that. In 30 seconds, and then you go back to the real issues. And here is this is a diversion. Its a way from these real issues, and then you go back to telling the truth. Theres one big problem with that argument, and i totally concur with it donald trump sells. He sells newspapers, he gets ratings. And what you just suggested we should do is to talk less about him and more about the other, but that aint how tv or radio or newspaper business works, man. You we need click mates on online stuff. This is absolutely right. Yeah. When i talk to the graduate students in journalism at u. C. Berkeley, last march, i talked to them about just these things. And what they said was the head of cbs, the president of cbs, says it may be bad for the country, but having trump on every day is good for for the profits of cbs. Mr. Moonves said that. Les moonves. He came out and said it. Sure. And those graduate students said, why am i here in graduate school . I want to be investigative reporter. Do i want to have to work for that . And my answer was, you dont have to work for that. You can be telling truths all the time, saying things from the point of view of the public, not from the point of view of conservativism. You have to find a niche where you can do it. You have to find a way to do it, and ultimately, the people in the press have to get the courage to stand up to it. I know this isnt your field per se, but can you say a word about how they develop that . How does the press finds its spine . Thats a good question. It finds its spine because otherwise it will be useless. Otherwise all they will be is spokespeople for trump. Thats all theyre going to be. You know, okay, kellyanne, tell me what i should say today. Okay, kellyanne, ill just say it. Yes. And when they know its false. Why are they in the business . Why are they what is your job if youre a reporter . If youre in the media, your job is to tell the truth to the public good, period. That is why youre there. If youre not doing that, you shouldnt be there. To what extent do you think the truth doesnt matter . What im getting at is we live in an era where, how can i put this, the truth is what each of us determines it to be. Another way, its truth if i believe it. If thats where we are, i dont know that any of this matters. Were partly there because of the neural filter. If you hear information and it comes in and doesnt fit what your brain can understand or comprehend, youre going to either change it or ignore it or attack it. One of those things. And in fact, lots of experiments show this if you go into neuroscience, its well known thats whats going to happen. Theres a neural filter. If you have both world views, the question is can you say things that fit one world view and fit the other world view . Fit the minor world view even if youre mostly a conservative. That is something thats hard to do, but you have to understand that and study it. So its its difficult to do. And with some people if they are totally conservative, you have no choice. Theyre going to hear and believe what trump says no matter what you say. There are questions where they have mostly in group nurturance and care about their families, about other people and so on and their neighbors, this in those areas theres a chance to get them to think differently. Weve been talking for the better part of this conversation as we are now about the head thats what you do. Where does the heart come in . Is there no link, professor, between the head and the heart . Theyre intimate. Its not the heart is a metaphor for the rest of the body. All of your emotions come through your body, every emotion, you know, has is there in your body. We first discovered this in the 80s when we started looking at the metaphors used for anger. And i went to the person who studies the psychology of anger, how it works in your body, what the physiology is. When youre angry, your skin temperature goes up half a degree. Thats why youre boiling mad. Your Blood Pressure goes up and your heartbeat rate goes up, thats why you explode. You have interference with accurate perception, thats why youre blind with rage. You have interference with fine motor control which is why you get hopping mad. If you go through the actual language of anger to describe anger, theres a logic to it, but it comes from the body. And antonio demossio, a great neuroscientist, says all of those things in the body are registered in the brain. The brain and body arent separate. And they are linked to what you believe. Snare not theyre not disconnected from your beliefs. Your beliefs and your world view are not just intellectual. Theyre embodied. Thought is embodied, its there emotionally. And that is crucial. One of the things that you need to do is to get involved in the way peoples bodies work. You know, you can see by looking at trump what his body is doing. I mean, it is quite something. Its very often you can see somebody up there and you can tell what theyre like by the way their bodies work. What do you see from trump . Will. You see from trump somebody who is aggressive, who is trying to dominate you, who is trying to put you down and trying to be above you in all ways and so on. You see it actually physically in his face, in his mouth, in his hands, in his hands gestures all the time. So if hes going to be some version of i was thinking about the movie the manchurian candidate, if hes wired that way, how do we sustain hope for the next four years . Thats why we have a Citizens Communication Network were setting up. Were trying to get everybody out there using social media and every day saying, look, you say protection, you dont sigh language matters. Language matters. Its not just and actions matter. Certain kinds of actions matters. Why was the womens march what it was . Its why did it have to be women . Because it was about care. The criticism was each of those women had a different view, a different issue, et cetera, no. They all had one issue care. And the point of a Progressive Democratic government is its not just about elections, its about citizens caring for other citizens and working through that government for that care. Without care theres no democracy. Thats the quote of the day. Without care, there is no democracy. Now that i have conducted this conversation, i want to go home and watch it again. It was so much that came out of this, i need to replay this tape. So i hope at home you recorded it as i am doing at my house right about now. Professor lakoff, happen hon honhonor an honor to have you on. Im learning so much. Always a pleasure. Ive learned so much from you over the years. Thank you. You are kind. Thank you. Thats our show for tonight. As always, keep the faith. 3. For more information on todays show, visit tavis smiley at pbs. Org. Hi, im tavis smiley. Join me next time for a conversation with actress jane kazmerek. Thats next time. Well see you then. And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Be more, pbs. Today, on americas test kitchen, julia and bridget cook up the ultimate ground beef chili, adam shows bridget his top Food Processor picks, and erin wows julia with a red lentil soup with north african spices. 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