And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. What is it that unites all great endeavors and how does failure propel people to success . These are to the questions answered by author, sarah lewis. Her book is titled the rise creativity, the gift of failure, and the search for mastery. Sarah lewis serves on president obamas arts policy committee. Good to have you on this program. Thank you. Why the fascination with the subject . We are all fascinated with the notion of success and failure. As a scholar, why the fascination . Creativity is a mystery. We have come closer to understanding it were me look at how obstacles could lead to advantages. I would often see artist studios and realized they werent going to bring those paintings, but they wouldnt show them to me either. There are missteps that could be important for iconic work. I wanted to see if this was true in all of life. I spent a lot of time, 15 years researching, looking at the life stories of various individuals from explorers and nobel Prize Winners to artist to see if this is a common thread. There is a whole book about this. What is the true line you discovered . I discovered the very things people want to avoid failures, setbacks are this the things that some iconic the jewels individuals found were key and never would have found any other way. I think anyone would tell you that they learn more from their failures than they ever learn from their successes. Absolutely. Most persons who are successful are willing to admit that. And how the value that process are that reality of that truth and how they use it to propel, does that make sense . Absolutely. There are number of ways we can talk about this. I favor examples are those masters to create iconic works that they themselves think are near wins. That gives them a propulsion to go forward. One thought his works were so incomplete he didnt sign 90 of them. He would set them aside and go back to them and make them better. That work goes on to become famous, but he tries to rewrite of five different types of publishers that an attendance. In an appendix. One man says his favor song is always the one he had yet to complete. What i have in this book is that my history as i see it is not about excellence, but it is this onward almost. It gives us a sense there is more to do. It also means people could see their works as failures where the world sees it as success. That is part of the riddle of human endeavors. Fascinating phrase. Unpack it from a bit more. I think i get it. When you state deliberately incomplete, tommy moore. Tell me more. I wonder how people manufacture a sense of propulsion for themselves. Check, the famous coach often gives his piercing might have an undefeated season in football something to strive for. He makes them eat humble pie. That is the way tom brady describes it. There are other athletic examples where people give themselves something to reach for even if they have met their goal. The reason it is in porton is because success could make us complacent. Is important is because success could make us complacent. Theres a study looking at the propulsion that comes after someone has received a silver medal versus a bronze. Even the bronze medalist have more to stand to improve. Theyre typically happier with their success because they do not get fourth place and not metal. Silver medalist felix have come so close so they are focused on followup competitions hell they have come so close feel they have come so close they are focused on followup competitions. Athletics. I love sports as much as anyone. A huge american past time. I love it in part because someone paraphrasing it because it inspires us with mans accomplishments. When you watch tiger or tom brady or whoever, and makes you want to believe and feel whatever you are up against, they did it against all the odds. I can do it as well. Check withetes, bili outstanding, these athletes do have a motivation. It is called a multimillion dollar contract. You really need to step your game up. Yeah. How do we take lessons from them when for the rest of us they are not milliondollar contracts on the line . Yeah. How do we keep challenging ourselves to do better day by day . To be frank, i hadnt thought of the idea of contracts is the motivated force. Im more interested in the success and mastery. Success is about what the world thinks about you. You hit a certain mark and then the world says you have become x, y, or z. Mastery is about something quite different. It is an internal gap about where it is you are and where you want to go. Everyone that i have profiled in the book whether they are and explore or nobel Prize Winners, their dealing with that internal landscape. The desire to close the gap, that Intrinsic Value that comes from that is what is propelling them. I didnt speak to anyone who is motivated by external approval or contract they had where they were fearful that they would lose. Many athletic examples are about amateurs in the book. One is responsible for the population of the ironman competitions because of the most spectacular near wins we have seen. She and college trying to use her body to gather data. She entered on a lark and ended up almost winning the ironman and collapse because she had been trained properly. The closest person ran by her and came into first place. She found herself propelled by this desire, an interior designer desire to best herself. About point, it was clear she was not going to win. But the wild world of sports says her doing is to prod herself up after she star fist on the ground. On the ground and regain control of her body to cross that finish line for herself. What is interesting about this propulsion is that it may not help us, but it helps us to outdo ourselves. That is a beautiful answer and response. It makes us wonder whether we should do away with the term success and focus on mastery. We talk about the distinction between success and mastery and there is also a distinction between success and greatness. We all want to be successful. I want to do this and that. There is a distinction between the two. Maybe we ought to get rid of the word success and master focus on mastery. It seems to me if it is always , it is ating ourselves most likely never self master a nyway. I will Say Something to your second question first and go back. I think masters are not experts because they take a subject to an end. I think they are masters because they know there isnt one. I would love for us to get rid of the idea of success. Valuet sure there is in aiming for a goal, but the idea of success carries a great deal of what others think about you. I think there to be damage in that. There is so little vocational about American Culture anymore that we do not often use the word mastery. We forget what it means. Archers up at see columbia, i wish truck by this endurance that they had to go i was struck by their endurance. A woman on the varsity team could hit a 9 and 10. Could do that for three hours. Thought this is such an ancient relic of endeavor. It is the pursuit of mastery. Success is hitting that 10 ring once, the mastery is doing it again and again and knowing that it Means Nothing if you cannot do it again and again. We would be better served if we in for that kind of mastery. You are obviously a scholar. What is it that you most want to get through to your students, particularly the young ones if youre teaching a freshman seminar . What you want and understand early on in their life journey . Hope we could cultivate a kind of fearlessness. We understand there are advantages that come from all sorts of circumstances. Some of the most greatness that the most comes from uncommon foundations. That is what i hope we can celebrate. It is a way to look at the capacity of the human spirit and if they have strong and resilient. That is what i hope students gain from it. That is what i gained from it. I became someone i do not think i could be to understanding these stories. The book is called the rise creativity, the gift of failure, and the search for mastery. By sarah lewis. Congrats. Thank you. Coming up, musician amos lee. Stay with us. For 10 years, amos lee has been bringing his brand of hope and sold to break down music berries. His latest cd mountains of sorrow, rivers of song. It features collaborations. We take a look at a cut from the album. I dont want to feel your breath sos you laid on me peacefully while you slept i dont want the keys to the door i dont live there anymore to forget theest dream dreams we dreamt ahhhhhhh you have still got it, amos. [laughter] worry in the studio whether you still have it . At this point i try to have fun. We work hard all year. You write all of these songs. I went in with my band. We want to have fun basically. You have a loyal fan base as any artist i know. Every time you put something out, it will pack the clubs to hear you and see you do what you do. What is fascinating over the years we have been talking, we have been here more times than i can count. Always happy to have you back. You do not really have a signature song. Yet they keep coming and coming. Does that concern you . Has it never come up as a thought in your mind . I feel lucky. Im grateful for so many things. Awesomeut artists. I have worked with the best people. Family environment like your Work Environment is. That is the way it is for us. It is a family as this. We have been running it since the very beginning. We will run it till the very end. The more people, the best. For us, it is about the values. This is our love. I would love to have a signature song. It brings more people to the party. It has been growing slow. That is what it is. It is a Family Business for us. Tell me about your songwriting process and how you sit down to put together a new project. Every project is different. Give me a sense of what youre process is on any given project. I do not have much of an agenda. It is kind of whatever im feeling or thinking about doing in that timeframe. During the work that i do, it is sort of nonspecific not like if youre not list you have a theme throughout the novels. You start a novel or finish a novel. This same with a film. In the singersongwriter world, it is different. Concept. No specific these are snapshots of three minutes to four minutes of emotional stuff i went through at a period and a putting it all together. We try to create a cool list the expense for people and put songs that people will want to hear. That is kind of it. Be concepthave to project . Artists overo many the years. I have seen that these concepts and everything that the blood great could you put out a experience with only 12 tracks and have that work . It is weird. There is the economy there. Omy. Ichon there are the singles things were people really want a few songs off the record. I grew up working at a record store and listening. There is always this continuity at would turn me on about music. I think it is weird. That aren to records just beautiful streams and it starts and it flows and when it ends, it is almost like a never started. It is like the market stuff you your people buying music. It almost feels like singles and the concept of an album doesnt even interest people that much anymore. It is kind of weird. You lost me when you refer to something called a record store. [laughter] store . Is a record i know, man. Such a drag here that place change me. It was a vintage jazz record store. I really do not know what that is. A record store is one thing, but a vintage jazz record store, what is that . Such a drag. It is cool that we have these devices that have every album ever made at her fingertips at all times, but i remember a couple of times a particular going to buy voodoo in a first came out. Im ever being excited to go to the record store. Ill get up early and make sure its not sold out. Theres something cool about that. Now you have the record before it comes out. You stream it. I almost hate to say it, but almost he values the experience a little bit. There is no courting. You do not have to court the record at all. You fall in love with the record still, but theres no courting phase for albums. It is like to show. I know that you loved james taylor. You into the troubadour show because you are excited. Right. How long ahead of time we do so excited for that night. It is a buildup. When it comes to the experience it is so immediate. You type something in and then you hit it and then it is there. It is almost too easy or something. It is not like it takes away from the love of music. People love music and will always love music. It is our job to consistently push ourselves as otters to the delivering thing push ourselves to keep delivering to people. I miss the record store. I miss going in and knowing the guy at the counter and being like, hey. Knowing that he was going to hit the record put on the counter and still buying it. That takes guts. Things you said a few things that had my mind going in a bunch of different records. [laughter] i have got add, too. You do not have to court to record any and anymore. Nobodyt have to court anymore. You can go online to get a record and go online to get a date. It is over now. I guess it is consistent in relationships. Why shouldnt it be that way for music . You are right, i love james taylor. I was in a conversation the other day. A friend of mine is doing his autobiography. One of the great joys of my life i will remember it and revel in it for long for as long as i live. Anemembering as to host anniversary and you were on the billing. Standing in the shadows that night and watching all of these from Dave Matthews to norah jones in that stage milwaukee i loved it. You killed it. Amazing. [laughter] it was one of my great joys of my life to watch you do that thing. It was a great evening. What were your takeaways . What was your take away as a young man out of experience of working inside a record store . Some of the coolest people i used to work at a record store and became a great dj and radio host and a great tv guy. Ill start working in this record store. What do you take away from it . It is called poppa jazz records. I was walking by when day and i saw the help wanted sign. I would workht there because i didnt think i was cool enough. But they hired me. The coolest part about it was the owner who let us bring records home, whatever he wanted. That was kind of where i first just so much music. Hat took me as a young writer it was very discouraging, but it took me to a place where it was like, this is the power that music has. When you listen to this artists or two that Donny Hathaway live record, you cannot help but be blown apart a little bit here. If he doesnt move your soul, your soulless. Pretty much. You cant be helped. [laughter] album. Me about your it is a collection of songs. I really wanted to work with my live band. They have put in so much good work. Really came together as a unit. Theyre great to work with. My view was to go to nashville and record with those guys. The title song is written about i mean, huge inspiration. He wasnt well. He had a serious illness. He kept given it, you know what i mean . Cap giving it in a real way eared there was no faking it she kept giving it he kept way. G it in a real there is no faking it. I have to ask about the take away. He is doing it now, amos lee. Mountains of sorrow, rivers of song. Wonderful project. If you get a chance to see amos lee in concert, take them out. Check him out. That is our show for tonight. As always, keep the faith. For more information on todays show, visit tavis smiley at pbs. Org. Tavis hi, im tavis smiley. Join me next time for a what is grabbing the countrys attention. See you then. And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Be more. Next on kqed newsroom, new developments in the leland yee saga and reaction from the chineseamerican community. The highs and lows of the cannabis industry, documented in the new book, weed land. Its going to be a long while before marijuana is going to be a reward issue for politicians. Plus, poking fun at the culture of silicon valley. If you want to live here, youve got to deliver. Like steve. Jobs or wozniak . Steve jobs or steve no, i heard you. Which one . Jobs. Jobs was a poser. He didnt even write code