Transcripts For KQEH Moyers Company 20131221

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Last month in sydney, australia, they threw an annual event called the festival of dangerous ideas. One of the main speakers was david simon, the writer and producer who created the wire and treme, two Television Series that vividly portray the vast gap between rich and poor. Nothing drives that great divide home, he said, like our prison system. Youre seeing the underclass hunted through a war on dangerous drugs allegedly that is in fact merely a war on the poor and has turned us into the most incarcerative state in the history of mankind, at this point. In terms of just the sheer numbers of people weve put in american prisons, no other country on the face of the earth jails people at the number and rate that we are. Hes right, of course. During the past 30 years, the number of inmates in federal custody has grown by 800 . And half of them are serving sentences for drug offenses. According to the sentencing project, an Advocacy Group dedicated to changing how we think about crime and punishment, more than 60 of the people in prison are now racial and ethnic minorities. This book woke people up the new jim crow mass incarceration in the age of colorblindness, by Michelle Alexander. She was my guest more than three years ago when the book was first published. An outstanding work of scholarship on how our war on drugs, our harsh mandatory minimum sentencing, and racism have converged to create a caste system in this country very much like the one under jim crow segregation laws. None of us at the time anticipated the powerful impact her book would have. It became a bestseller, spurred an even wider conversation about justice and inequality, and transformed Michelle Alexander from attorney and professor to an activist and advocate for an end to our dehumanizing penal system. Michelle alexander, welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me. When the book came out, one reviewer called it the bible of a social movement. Have you seen the apostles and the disciples and the church spreading . Have you seen the signs of a movement . Yes. And it has me so encouraged. As i travel from city to city, and ive been speaking in churches and at universities, ive been speaking inside prisons and reentry centers, just an incredible range of venues, i see over and over again people who are dedicating their lives now to ending the system of mass incarceration, to raising consciousness. People of faith who are organizing their church communities, organizing within mosques, holding study circles, holding film festivals and then organizing and mobilizing their memberships. Or their congregations. Im especially encouraged by formerly incarcerated people who are finding their voice and organizing to man the restoration of their basic civil and human rights. Organizations like all of us or none which has successfully, you know, achieved ban the box legislation. Ban the box . Ban the box on employment applications the, you know, box on employment applications that asks that dreaded question, have you ever been convicted of a felony . And of course it doesnt matter whether youve been convicted of a felony a few weeks ago or 40 years ago, for the rest of your life, youre labeled a felon and then subject to legal discrimination, for the rest of your life. What do those exfelons, what have they been telling you about what its like to come out and try to get back into the society to which they have paid for their sins . I think its just an extraordinary challenge. And i think most people have this sense that when youre released from prison, well, yeah, life is hard. But if you really dedicate yourself, pull yourself up by the bootstraps, you know, knock on enough doors, youll get that job, youll get your life back together. It may be hard but if you really try, you can do it. But what ive learned, you know, over the years from working with many formerly incarcerated people, and forming close friendships with many people who have been released from prison, is that its not just hard, its often impossible. Youre released from prison, often with, you know, maybe 20 in your pocket. Have nowhere to sleep. You try to return home, maybe to your family who lives in public housing. Your family risks eviction in many places if they just even allow you to come home. Felons can be excluded from public housing. Whole families can risk eviction if they allow people with felonies to come home to them. Trying to get a job can be next to impossible. You know, people say, well, they could get a job at, you know, burger king or some, you know, minimum wage job. No actually, you know, many lowwage jobs are, for all practical purposes, offlimits to people who have felonies. Hundreds of professional licenses are offlimits to people who have felonies. In my state in ohio, until just recently, you couldnt even get a license to be a barber if youd been convicted of a felony. Food stamps may be offlimits to you if youve been convicted of a drug felony. You know, what are people released from prison expected to do . Apparently what we expect them to do is to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars in fees, fines, court costs, accumulative back child support, which continues to accrue while youre in prison. And in a growing number of states youre actually expected to pay back the cost of your imprisonment. And paying back all these fees, fines and court costs may be a condition of your probation or parole. And then if youre one of the lucky few, the very few who even manages to get a job straight out of prison, up to 100 of your wages can be garnished to pay back all those fees, fines, court costs. How do you explain this, given the fact that this is a society that celebrates second chances, for politicians in particular, a society that is built around the theme of renewal, born again and yet, doesnt extend that same act of forgiveness to people who have paid for their sins. Well, we say were a society that supports second chances. But in reality, were not. And i think the reason to fully understand whats happened in this country, with respect to mass incarceration, you have to look back at least 40 years to the law and Order Movement that was born in the midst of the Civil Rights Movement. You know, when civil rights advocates were beginning to violate segregation laws and sitin at lunch counters and desegregate trains and busses violating what they believed were unjust laws segregationists said, you know, this is leading to the breakdown of the respect for law. We need law and order in this country. And the call for law and order was in direct response to the Civil Rights Movement and the nonviolent, civil disobedience the protesters were engaged in. But this law and Order Movement began to take on a life of its own as crime rates began to rise in urban areas and some politicians began to say, you know, this rise in crime is a symptom of this attitude of lawlessness that is spreading through the nation. We need to get tough. We need to crack down. We need law and order. And as ive documented at Great Lengths in the book, and many other political scientists and historians have as well, the get tough movement and the war on drugs really is traceable to a backlash against the gains of africanamericans in the Civil Rights Movement and a radical shift in mentality that occurred where as a nation we ended the war on poverty and declared the war on drugs. A wave of punitiveness really swept the nation on the heels of the Civil Rights Movement. And this attitude has infected not only our criminal Justice System but our Education System that now has a zero tolerance policy for School Discipline infractions. And has led to this prison building boom unlike anything the world has ever seen. How have mandatory minimum sentences contributed to that . Well, mandatory minimum sentences ensures that you will get the harshest possible sentence under law. The mandatory minimum sentence. And so it shifts power to the prosecutor so the prosecutors can then say to you, well, you take this plea or else youre going to get this harsh mandatory minimum sentence. And it gives prosecutors the power to, you know, encourage plea deals, you know, in a federal system. I think 97 to 98 of all, you know, charged cases result in a plea, not a trial because people are terrified of facing these harsh mandatory minimum sentences. And it ensures that its up to the prosecutor, not the judge, you know, what kind of sentence you receive. And mandatory minimum sentences has a lot to do with the exponential increase in our prison population in the United States. And today, you know, even in this era of obama, in this time of supposed color blindness, we now have created a system of mass incarceration, a penal system unprecedented in world history. We have the highest rate of incarceration in the world, dwarfing the rates of even highly repressive regimes like russia or china or iran. And the majority of the increase in incarceration in the United States have been among impoverished people of color who, once theyre swept into the system, are then stripped of the very rights supposedly won in the Civil Rights Movement. And yet, the topic of mass incarceration has been one, you know, that has been rarely raised. Is there research that confirms that the backlash is against black criminals or against criminals, just crime . Well, there is. Theres an enormous amount of research that suggests that the backlash and the punitive impulse was not simply in response to crime but was much more deeply connected to racial attitudes, racial fears and anxieties. And in fact, you know, the political strategist who conceived of the get tough movement and the war on drugs quite deliberately used not so subtle racial appeals and racial code language with the purpose of trying to exploit both conscious and unconscious racial biases and stereotypes for political gain. The southern strategy. By which Richard Nixon was elected president. Yes, yes. The basis of the southern strategy was using these kind of racially coded get tough appeals on issues of crime and welfare to appeal to poor and working class whites particularly in the south who were anxious about, threatened by, resentful of many of the gains of africanamericans in the Civil Rights Movement. And to be fair, i think we have got to acknowledge that poor and working class whites really had their world rocked by the Civil Rights Movement. You know, wealthy whites could send their kids to private schools, give their kids all of the advantages that wealth has to offer. But poor and working class whites in the south, many of whom were themselves struggling for survival, who are desperately poor, often illiterate. They were the ones who might have to ship their kids across town to go to a school they believed were inferior. It was they who were suddenly forced to compete on equal terms for limited jobs with this whole group of people theyd been taught their whole lives who they believe were inferior to them. And this state of affairs did create an enormous amount of fear, resentment and anxiety and an enormous political opportunity. What about now . How do you see that playing out . Well, i see it most obviously in the immigration debate. Today we see that this fear of immigrants coming across the border to take jobs and to take Educational Resources and who are going to drain the tax base of your county. These fears that they are coming to take from you is leading and has led to another sort of gettough movement. Get tough on them, those immigrants who have violated the law by crossing over and this wave of punitiveness now directed towards immigrants is leading to the same kind of indifference towards their basic humanity that we have seen in the war on drugs and the get tough movement that led to the rise of mass incarceration. I mean, race has been used as a wedge again and again throughout American History to divide the lower classes, if you will. And to create an environment in which poor and working class people are pit against one another. But that does not mean that, you know, all or even most poor or working class white folks are harboring any conscious racial resentments. I know that there are those folks out there, for sure. But i think much of it lies in the unconscious, stereotypes and fears and biases that we all have within us that get exploited in these moments where groups are scapegoated and fears are stoked, resulting in, you know, the emergence of these new systems. I mean, we are having mass deportation today at the same time as we are having mass incarceration. Mass deportation, i must say, by a black president. Absolutely. Its one of the great ironies. Just as its, you know, an irony that the greatest escalation of the drug war was under president clinton who, you know, many africanamericans called our first black president. I remember that. And it was president clinton, you know, a democrat, who escalated the drug war far beyond what president reagan or president nixon had even dreamed possible. And it was the Clinton Administration that championed laws banning drug offenders even from federal Financial Aid for schooling upon their release. Banning drug offenders and people with criminal convictions from, you know, public housing. You know, to a large extent many of the rules, laws, policies and practices that now constitute this castelike system were championed by a democratic President Administration desperate to win back those socalled white swing voters. The folks who had defected from the Democratic Party in the wake of the Civil Rights Movement. I was going to ask you what do you think is the dynamic that drove clinton and now drives obama . Is it to satisfy the base they think most hostile to them . I think so. And, you know, what i find most unfortunate though, of the politics that have developed over the years, the politics of trying to appease, you know, poor and working class whites not by building explicitly multiracial, multiethnic, you know, coalitions and alliances that encourage solidarity across racial and class lines. But instead by kind of tossing these symbolic bones, you know, saying, well, were escalating the drug war, were getting tough on them. Dont you feel better now . Were willing to get tough by deporting even more immigrants than ever have been deported before. Dont you feel better now . We fall into the trap of really playing to peoples, you know, baser fears and instincts rather than risking perhaps some shortterm losses, but building the kind of unity and the kind of solidarity across race and class lines which i believe would help to ensure a much more Stable Foundation for the kind of multiracial, multiethnic, inclusive democracy that i would hope for. Which is why my great hope does not lie with president obama or our elected politicians no matter how wellmeaning or wellintentioned they may be. You have talked recently in a way different from how you were talking three and a half years ago. Youve been talking about moving out of your own lane. What are you suggesting . Yeah, well, you know, right around the anniversary of the march on washington i found myself doing a fair amount of internal reflection about my own role at this time in building the kind of movement that i would hope for, for social justice. And what i had to admit to myself is that for the last few years, you know, i have spent all of my working hours talking about mass incarceration and trying to raise consciousness about what has happened in this country, how weve managed to birth a castelike system again. You know, that there are more africanamericans under correctional control today, in prison or jail, on probation or parole than were enslaved in 1850. That weve created this vast new system again. And to try to raise consciousness so that people would wake up to this reality. And i realize that as wellintentioned as all that work was it was leading me to a place of relatively narrow thinking. That i wasnt connecting the dots between other kinds of social injustices that are occurring here in the United States and abroad to the work that i was committed to and the cause that i had been committed to over the years. It was a larger breakdown of democracy that affected more people than africanamericans in prison or immigrants being deported. Youre saying that the system has broken down. Absolutely. The entire system has been broken down. And its really i think, at its root about a failure on our part to develop a moral consensus about how we treat one another. You know, for me, i have to care. If i care about a young man serving, you know, 25 years to life for a minor drug crime. If i care about him and care about his humanity, ought i not also care equally about a young woman whos facing deportation back to a country she hardly knows and had lived in only as a child and can barely speak the language . And ought i not be as equally concerned about her fate as well . Ought i not be equally concerned about a family whose loved ones were just killed by drones in afghanistan . Ought i not care equally for all . And that really was dr. Kings insistence at the end of his life. That we ought to care about the vietnamese as much as we care and love our people at home. So, i think we ought to commit ourselves to building a human Rights Movement in this country, a human Rights Movement for education, not incarceration, for jobs, not jails. A movement that will end all these forms of legal discrimination against people released from prison, discrimination that denies them basic human rights to work, to shelter, to education, to food. You dont think practical politics leads you where you want to go . No. I think that the system, as it is designed today, with the amount of money that influences who gets elected and who even has a shot of Holding Office in the United States today. I think that the way the system is currently designed does not allow for that kind of policy change to occur. Were going to have to build a movement that changes the nature of politics itself, that takes money and the profound influence of money out of politics and is one that is not, you know, a win lose, winner take all kind of system. Today we have democrats and republicans battling it out with people joining camps and thinking that somehow through this war demonizing the opposition were going to come up with solutions that genuinely benefit all. I think thats deeply misguided. Were going to have to become more creative about how we do democracy in the United States. But it begins i believe, with people in their communities organizing around the issues that matter most to them. Arent you talking in some instances about ghettoized communities that, where unemployment is high, families are in distress, schools are falling apart and there are very few life support systems. How do they organize . Its incredibly difficult. Incredibly difficult. But its not impossible. Im inspired by people like susan burton, for example. Shes executive director of an organization in los angeles called a new way of life. And susan is an africanamerican woman who became addicted to crack cocaine after alos Angeles Police Department Officer ran over her 5yearold boy. And if susan, you know, had been middle class, uppermiddle class, she might have had a Good Health Care plan and mightve been able to get good legal drugs to help her cope with her depression and her grief. But things were different for susan. She became addicted to crackcocaine and spent 15 years cycling in and out of prison and jail. Every time, tossed out onto the street, unable to get work or even access to drug treatment, cycling in and out for 15 years. Finally she gets access to a private drug treatment program, becomes clean, is given a job and decides to dedicate her life to ensuring that no other woman would ever have to go through what she has gone through. And now susan runs five safe homes for formerly incarcerated women in los angeles, providing them desperately needed shelter, support, finding work, reunifying with their families. But beyond that, she is part of all of us or none and is organizing formally incarcerated people in california and nationwide to demand the restoration of their basic civil and human rights. So they and whats happening is phenomenal. So they could become full citizens again. And with the leadership of organizations like all of us or none, theyve succeeded in banning the box on employment applications in the entire state of california. You know, therere enormous victories that are being achieved precisely because the people who we have written off and viewed as disposable are reclaiming their voice, standing up, speaking out, organizing even as they struggle to survive. And so, you know, my own view is that in building this movement weve got to be able to do a number of things simultaneously. Weve got to be able and committed to building an underground railroad for people who are released from prison, people who need desperate help finding shelter and food as they try to make a break for real freedom. But weve also got to be willing to work for abolition at the same time. Abolition of the system of mass incarceration as a whole. And i see people like susan burton and so many others miraculously managing to do these things at the same time. And so i hope that, you know, people will donate generously to these organizations which often dont receive the level of funding from foundations they deserve and also find ways to donate their time and their energy to this work and be part of this movement in a direct way. Arent there some signs of progress on the issues that concern you . Attorney general eric holder has begun to advocate for some reform of our mandatory minimum sentences. Here he is speaking to the american bar association. Take a listen. I have today mandated a modification of the justice departments charging policies so that certain lowlevel, nonviolent drug offenders who have no ties to large scale organizations, gangs or cartels will no longer be charged with offenses that impose draconian mandatory minimum sentences. They its a very encouraging sign. It suggests that at least for a small category of cases, mandatory minimum sentences will no longer be automatically sought by federal prosecutors. And its a positive step in the right direction. It doesnt go all the way. Mandatory sentences are still on the books and will still apply to thousands of people who, you know, may be dubbed as having some kind of gangrelated connections and of course those kind of connections do not have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. And, you know, in a number of states across the United States in recent years mandatory minimum sentences for drug crimes, nonviolent drug crimes have been reduced. And weve seen for the first time in 40 years state prison populations beginning to decline. The federal prison population is still rising. And most of the people who are incarcerated in federal prisons are there due to drug offenses and immigration violations. So we still see, you know, the federal prison population rising. But the state prison populations beginning to decline. And that is reason for hope. But my concern is that the primary reason that legislatures have begun to ease up some of their harsh mandatory minimum sentences is not because of genuine concern for the people whose lives have been destroyed or the communities that have been decimated by the drug war. But instead these changes have been motivated largely because of the fiscal crisis. They cant afford these prisons anymore. Yes. These states find that theres no way to maintain these massive prison systems without raising taxes on the predominately white middle class. So theyve been willing to downsize a bit. Well, take california. Former governor schwarzenegger said they had been investing too much in prisons and not enough in schools. But ultimately it turns out that what he was proposing wasnt altogether downsizing. It was privatizing the prison so that the responsibility for them was transferred to forprofit corporations. And i ask you what happens when theres a profit motive to send people to prison . Well, when theres a profit motive it ensures that more and more people will be locked up and remain locked up in order for companies to maintain their profit margins. You know, the largest Prison Company, private Prison Company in the United States, the Corrections Corporation of america, sent a letter to 48 governors basically with an offer we will buy your staterun prisons in exchange for a promise, a guarantee, that you will keep these prisons filled at least 90 percent capacity. You know, these kinds of agreements and incentives are not in the Public Interest. You know, what would be in the Public Interest is, you know, a commitment to reducing crime so that our prisons empty. But instead, private prisons want a commitment from state governors that these prisons will be kept filled by any means necessary which virtually ensures a high level of commitment by politicians to these get tough measures, mandatory sentences, war on drugs, to keep prison beds filled so in fact, arizona, oklahoma, louisiana and i believe virginia all have privatized prisons that are kept at 95 to 100 percent occupancy because they have guaranteed that occupancy to the private industry. Even if the crime rate falls. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, thats whats most worrisome is that they will insist and have insisted on keeping their beds full even if crime rates are relatively low. And today, you know, crime rates nationally are at historical lows. But incarceration rates are higher than they ever have been. Well, some people argue, as you know, that the crime rate nationally is down because weve been locking up the people who commit the crimes. Yes, which has been proven to be demonstrably false. You know, if you look at the data it shows that, you know, states that have been on an incarceration binge do not necessarily have lower crime rates than states that have incarcerated people at a lower rate. There is no clear connection between incarceration rates and crime rates. And in fact, in cities like chicago and in new orleans, new orleans is the incarceration capital of the world, you know, they have some of the highest Violent Crime rates in the country as well. And the same can be said for chicago. In fact, you know, a growing number of researchers and sociologists now believe that incarceration rate, high levels of incarceration, actually can be a contributor to high crime rates because youre incarcerating such a large percentage of a community or a population, youre ensuring that people are going to be locked out of work and locked out of housing and living, you know, in a state of desperation for the rest of their lives. So i would hope that as we build this movement to end mass incarceration, we will not be tempted to make purely fiscal arguments about the need for reform but ensure that the way we engage in our advocacy helps to inspire much greater care, compassion and concern for the very people who have been locked up, locked out and that we have been taught to despise. But when you look back historically at slavery, condoned by many people who quoted the bible, when you look at what happened after the civil war. It took the civil war to free the slaves and then they were put back into a form of slavery with a coerced labor, forced labor. And use of jim crow laws, you referred to. You look at the racial violence that extended right on through our time. Where do you get any hope that this ideal of compassion, that we can create a society, such as you describe, given our conflicted, often savage past . I get my hope from this revolutionary idea that doesnt seem to die in the United States. This idea that all people are created equal with certain inalienable rights, including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That was a revolutionary idea in the declaration of independence. And it was wholly incomplete. It was all men are created equal and implicitly slaves were left out, you know, poor people were left out. Women were left out. Women were left out. Right. But it was a revolutionary idea then and it remains a revolutionary idea today. This idea that keeps changing and growing and expanding as our consciousness changes and grows and expands that all human beings are created equal and have certain inalienable rights, it wont die. It didnt die with slavery, you know, a war was necessary to end slavery. But this idea has continued to survive and its continued to grow. And we see now that in the United States we do believe that women are equal. We have an idea that people of all races are created equal. We are now beginning to see that depending on, regardless of your sexual orientation, you are equal. This idea itself has not died. And so i think the worst thing we can do is to fall into a sort of cynicism where we imagine nothing can ever be done. You know, these new systems of control just keep being born. This is just part of human nature. Well, it may be part of human nature to fear one another. But there is also a part of human nature i believe that wants to see the equality, even divinity, in each other and to honor it. And that spirit remains alive in the United States today. And if we give up on it then i think were giving up on the dream of truly thriving equitable multiracial, multiethnic democracy. Michelle alexander, thank you very much for being with me. Thank you for having me. In our conversation, you heard Michelle Alexander single out a woman named susan burton as an inspiration both to her and to the movement to reform the criminal Justice System and reclaim basic civil and human rights for people released from incarceration. Because of susan burton, many women have found shelter, a job, and camaraderie during that rocky period after they walk out of prison into what otherwise would be a cold and treacherous world. She herself almost didnt make it. Burton served six prison sentences in california for drugrelated felonies. Shes never forgotten what she heard a prison guard say as she walked away for what turned out to be the last time ill see you back in a little while. After all, 65 percent of the states parolees do return to jail within three years, and nearly a third of them within the first six months. But thanks to treatment and resolve, susan burton has stayed clean and free. Today her los angeles organization, a new way of life, runs five houses offering help to women struggling to rebuild their lives. Her story is told in a film released last year, produced and directed by tessa blake and emma hewitt. Heres an excerpt this is susan burton, shes the founder and executive of a new way of life, and this is samantha jenkins. And whatever we can do to help you pursue your goals, you know, were here for you. What kind of plans you have . I plan on going to school. Whatever you need to, you know, get your school going, you let us know. Yeah, okay. We want to keep you grounded and connected. Okay. Okay. Thank you. All right. Thanks. Youre welcome. A new way of life is a home. Were going to get you situated and were going to clean everything its a home where women can come and feel accepted and supported and safe. If you find any problems, just let me know. We can help you get yourself where you want to be in life. Its home for so many women who have no place to go. I was locked up for four years, thats a long time. I was happy to be out, but still scared because, you know, i guess because were creatures of habit and you want to feel secure and safe. They drive you to the bus station and you know, they give you 200 and they buy your ticket out of your money and put you on a bus. And youre just headed to wherever. And so, i arrived downtown l. A. And it was really scary it was really scary. And i looked like i came from prison, you know, i was dusty looking, you know, with jeans and a paper bag. Everybody knows that youre from prison they know, just by the way you look and they know. You get approached by everybody. There were people asking you if you needed a ride, telling you that you look fine drug addicts, People Living that life and you know they are. Its so easy to get lured, especially if youre scared and im going to be honest, i was scared and i felt like i was just standing there buck naked. I didnt have any place to go, i really didnt. And i called miss burton and i told her, i said, i received a letter from you and you said for me to call you and that you would pick me up. And she says, where are you . And i told her. She says, ill be there in about 15 minutes. And she came and picked me up. To come into a place and be able to drink out of a glass and not plastic, to sleep on a mattress and not metal and to have food, have choices, its just stuff people take for granted. Miss burton is so sweet. Shes a good lady. Im glad she picked me up. This house is the beginning of a new way of life. I got it in 1998 and fashioned a house for women who had been incarcerated and thats where i started. When i left prison, i went to treatment and got a job and, you know, i saved the money and i saved about 12,000. Yeah, and i mean, i saved every dime. Some months, i didnt spend but 40 a month for anything that i needed. And everything else, i saved. And i didnt understand why or what i was saving for. I didnt know i was on my way to creating something that would have the ability to change lives. I tried to give help in the same fashion that i had received it. There was a lot of movement in the house, a lot of cooking and tv watching and healing going on. And a part of it was my healing, also. I relate really closely with the women. I understand what theyre feeling ive felt the same thing. Ive had the same fears, the same anger, the same frustration. I lost my son and he was accidentally killed by a Police Officer and i just didnt know what to do. My whole world just spun. The pain of everything was so unbearably present in my body, i think if you looked at me, you could almost see it or touch it. And it was all the disappointment, all the grief, all the sorrow that had to be addressed. So i was able to address it through someone helping me. I am about to go visit with my daughter. Im a little bit fearful because of the way my lifestyle was a few years back when i was in my addiction. I started prostituting myself and that is the worst thing ever, in her eyes. So i dont know where were going to go with this or how were going to get through it, but im going to try talking to her and hopefully, shell open up and we can get past it. Dominique has some resentments towards me because of my addiction and i was in and out of prison. This is a picture of me when i got my ged in prison i was in prison when i took this picture. I went to prison for involuntary manslaughter. I left in 1989. I didnt come home until 1996. I was happy to come back into my daughters life, but i didnt know how she would accept me because i had been gone so long. You know, i would stay clean and sober and then id go back to that lifestyle again, so i knew that i had to work hard to earn her trust again. I couldnt trust her. So through her addiction, as i got older, i knew i couldnt trust her. I didnt trust her with anything i didnt trust her with my child, i didnt trust her with me. She went back to jail a lot. Parole violation after parole violation, repeatedly. Ill never forget the day that i had to kick the freaking door down to get to my mom who was getting high in the next room, who stole my sons piggy bank to go buy drugs. I couldnt think i never stole your sons no, i did not, dominique. Mom, theres a lot of stuff that you say you didnt you dont think you did, but i think that youre when you were active in your drug use, you dont remember a lot of stuff. I mean you hurt a lot of people. I know. And you have a lot of relationships to fix. You cant hide the things, the mistakes you make. You cant act like they didnt happen or push them aside and think you can start all over. Im getting better. Im not there yet, but 100 percent, but im working on it. You are. Okay. I guess thats all i can ask for. Okay, and you got it. Thanks. A long time coming. Youre welcome. Give me a hug. This is my room and this is my bed and i was right here on the computer. I like the fact that i know how to use it. Its so cool, i just wish i could use it to get a job. Im healthy, im employable, im willing. Ive been out of prison for just about a year and ive been looking for a job ever since ive been out. I was a nurse before and i had never had a resume and i just walked in and they would hire me right on the spot. Now i have all these resume, these certificates and all this stuff, but it doesnt matter because my background is in the way. We dont get a lot of money here. We barely make it from month to month keeping the doors open, keeping food in the houses, keeping the lights on, keeping staff paid. That invoice shouldve been paid, right . And then do how much am i short from payroll . Thats still short. Okay. All right. Bye. It was 1999. I was a few months sober and it angered me that i would be treated so cruel and caged and chained for a drug charge. And i knew thousands of women just like me who had been negatively impacted by the war on drugs, who were incarcerated on a turnstile going in and out of prison, not able to get help. Imagine 70,000 a year to keep us contained, just squandering public funds. I just got a notice saying that Mental Health services have been defunded. Hell, they couldve sent me to yale. For all those years and got so many degrees. You know six prison sentences. You know, six degrees, right . Its not one is two, or three. Theres a chicken in the backyard. Hi, there. Are you thirsty or do you want something to eat . I think hes hungry. Hes looking for food. I had a big tax bill and i just panicked. I did. And started talking to a friend and said, i can help you out, you can make some quick money selling drugs. I was selling crack, crystal, marijuana, vicodin, viagra, everything i could get my hands on. I was just going to do it for a little while, pay my bills and be done. But that didnt happen. I got four years. I went to see a social worker to sign up for food stamps. She asked me if i had a conviction or anything like that on my record and of course, i told her the truth, you know. I said, yes, i have. And she said, what . And i said, for sales of you know, narcotics. And she says, oh, youre not eligible for food stamps. They wont give me food stamps because of my conviction they wont give me lowincome housing because of my conviction and trying to find a job, its like, they throw your application in the trash. I feel like im drowning. I could call up a drug dealer right now, somebody that knows me and i dont have to have any money. They would give me something to sell and i would pay them back and then i would be on my way. Very easy to get back into that lifestyle. Heres another one, isnt that wup one pretty . They are cute. We have a yellow one theres a yellow one, too, i shouldnt say we, were not allowed pets, but oh well. I really like sitting here. Its a good place. Well, it was pretty deep, but i believe she got a chance to say a lot of things that, you know, she had been holding in. Yeah. And a lot of it was hurtful. The pain that our children incur, we just dont know how deep and how far it goes. Its taken me over ten years to receive some forgiveness for the character i was through my alcoholism and addiction. And i did the same thing that you were doing that youre doing now. Yeah, you are very inspiring and i consider you to be my mentor. Ive never told you this, but i admire you. Thank you. And im staying under your wing. You are not getting rid of me and i want to learn from you and i want to be like you. And give back and help others that come behind me. Yeah, well, i dont know if i told you, but i admire you, too, and i think about you and where youre headed and it makes my heart very, very happy, because you are the reason i do what i do. I got blessed with a job. Im working in the laundromat. The lady that owns the laundromat is an acquaintance of miss burton and she gave me two days a week parttime, at 8 an hour and i am thrilled. Its keeping the washers and dryers clean and giving people change and she gave me the keys and i count money, she trusts me. Im happy to have a job. Just awesome. I wouldnt be able to survive on the money that i make here if i left a new way of life. So i need some more hours, i need to have my own housing and i need transportation. But anyway, im happy i have this. This is a start. One step at a time, you know . Its chicken, ribs, sausage. Theres greens in there. Im starving. When did you start . I started last wednesday. Wow. So its just two days a week. Chasing bubbles. I do. Im this bubble chaser, which is okay. Its a job, you know what im saying . Im thankful. You know what . You never gave up looking for a job, never. And im still not giving up. I want you guys to meet my daughter finally. Her and my grandkids will be here. Uhhuh, thats good. And things are good. Thats good. Yeah, things are good. Thats from the film, susan, by tessa blake and emma hewitt. Not only is ms. Burtons work the subject of the movie, shes also been recognized far and wide for her leadership and courage. She was a member of californias Sentencing Reform Commission she serves on the board of the Los Angeles Sober Living Network and she received the citizen activist award from the Kennedy School of government at harvard university. At our website billmoyers. Com, well link you to more of her story and more about Michelle Alexander and her extraordinary book, the new jim crow, acclaimed as the bible of a social movement. Thats all at billmoyers. Com. Ill see you there and ill see you here, next time. Dont wait a week to get more moyers visit billmoyers. Com for exclusive blogs, essays and video features. This episode is available on dvd for 19. 95. To order call 18003361987 or write to the address on your screen. Announcer funding is provided by Carnegie Corporation of new york, celebrating 100 years of philanthropy, and committed to doing real and permanent good in the world. The kohlberg foundation. Independent production fund, with support from the partridge foundation, a john and polly guth charitable fund. The clements foundation. Park foundation, dedicated to heightening Public Awareness of critical issues. The herb alpert foundation, supporting organizations Whose Mission is to promote compassion and creativity in our society. The bernard and audre rapoport foundation. The john d. And catherine t. Macarthur foundation, committed to building a more just, verdant, and peaceful world. More information at macfound. Org. Anne gumowitz. The betsy and jesse fink foundation. The hkh foundation. Barbara g. Fleischman. And by our sole corporate sponsor, mutual of america, designing customized individual and Group Retirement products. Thats why were your retirement company. Tavis good evening. From los angeles, i am tavis smiley. A conversation with actor stacy keach. He is no stranger to rave reviews. He has had more than his shares of difficulties. We have glad you have joined us