Transcripts For KQEH Charlie Rose 20170522

By this regulation, which calls for i do think there will be a report at the end of the day but the report is going to focus around whether or not to bring criminal charge charges. If there are criminal charges dont expect him to be talking about anything outside of the four corners of that criminal complaint or indictment. Also the consideration of the life of roger ailes who died this week at age 77. We talk too gain sherman and jim rutenberg. His legacy created this moment. He created donald Trump America by fuzing politics and entertainment and making those values paramount to winning elections. So donald trump sort of one of the tragedies Donald Trumps life is that his downfall and his death came at his greatest political triumph which is put ting a reality tv star in the white house. We conclude with the art collecting gallery owner adam lindemann. The fashion swings are huge, and the idea that artist forever and tell me temporal is a fantasy. Impressionist market is soft and it has been on a bull run for 15 years. Fashions change. In you look at basquiat and warhol, when he died it was virtually unsaleable and basquiat has been growing but back in the 90s you could buy it for nothing. The former chief of staff to Robert Mueller, a look at roger ailes and also the record sale of a Jean Michel Basquiat. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose President Trump is headed overseas on a nine day triv trip to five countries and three summit meetings. Begins in saudi arabia where the president will deliver a speech about islam then to vatican city , belgium and back to italy. Its the first foreign trip of his presidency and Administration Officials are portraying it as a chance for america to reengage globally and a chance to trump to get away from mounting controversies at home. For more zero we turn to ian brimmer and Michael Hanna a senior fellow at the century foundation. Welcome. Great to have you. Good to see you again. So what does the president hope to plirn and what is within the well m of reasonability . Well, i i mean aside from distracting and creating decent headlines with people that actually want to see him, thats porn by itself. The biggest success so far trump has had in his presidency, short as his is the meeting with xe ping. Expectations were low and people were concerned it was going to be rocky and came back and said we got along famously. See how long that lasts. First she going to saudi arabia, to israel. The two leaders of American Allies that will happiest to see the back of former obama. They they wanted to see somebody new. They are going to treat him well and do their best to focus on the issues that are useful to them and a bilateral relationship whether its about better Security Cooperation or major arms deals or showing that were just good partners and allies and they will help to make trump look for president ial if trump can come away with not just those trip but the whole nine days look like he is engag ing in Foreign Policy as president of the United States, the trappings, the context will actually be much more of a win than anything he could be accomplishing back in the United States. More than the saudi government he also is going to see there a lot of leaders from islam countries and muslim countries. He will make the speech about islam. Is it a chance for him to make amends with what people saw as anti muslim both policy and Campaign Rhetoric . To a degree. The thing tooler is that, for the saudi leadership, and the egyptians, and emrates, the thing that really matters is convergence on their key priorities. So the issues about islam that came up during the campaign, thats not really high on their list. Their care about iran. They care about iran. The president cares about a blanche check and cutting the criticism of human rights and democracy. Those are the things they care about. Clearly there is an issue of what can he possibly say on this very topic that he has a long fair i had complicated history on. I assume this is not going to be a theological discussion but a low common denominator type of speech talking about militant islam and maybe iran as well. Maybe talk about iran as well certainly. In terms of, this isnt going to be talking very much about the specifics. I think its going to be talking about the fight against isis, dealing with militant islam, talking about moderation but its not going to be something that is going to get into specifics. I cant imagine. What can he get from them . Aside from the fact that theyre a stalwart ally theres not a hell of a lot of saudis have to offer the United States. Rose what about boots on the ground in syria . Not going to happen. Not going to happen. The saudis are up to their eyeballs in a failing war in yemen and trying to extricate themselves and their allies as well. And i think part of the problem is that trump is starting with countries that tactically want to work with him but longterm the future of American Interest is not in the middle east. The America First is about extricating yourself from the failed wars. Over a long period of time this is the fight between steve ban none and people like hr mc master and mcmannis in the administration for what kind of policy are you going to have. The future is china and asia and perhaps the transatlantic, latinamerica. The first big trip he is going with the best allies that like him and one of the reasons they really like him is because thai were kind of concerned that the United States saw them as history. And you know at the end of the day, the desire of obama to balance iran against the gulf states was being done because obama didnt want as much entrenched engagement in part of the world that the us didnt need as much or see any wins. If trump is going to say im engaging with my friends the saudis he can get them to buy a lot in terms of american hardware, and thats a benefit for american multi nationals. But if you ask me in ten years time are the saudis going to have a lot to offer the american s strategically, you look at the future of saudi arabia and you say, probably not we dont need the energy. The government has enormous problems and they lawmaker lucky if they can maintain domestic stability and their losing geo political influence in the renal rose why is that . Because they dont need their money . Because arena iran is getting stronger. The saudis have to diversify away from being a Petroleum Based economy. Rose thats a big plan of the crowned prince. Its difficult for them to do that given their educational system, given the lack of actual control he has over the royal family, and given how late theyre starting. Im impressed with the guy. If peertopeered to bet on anyone in the region individual ly he would be a good individual to bet on. But saying that the sawed yous are our friends and were going to work with them longterm, especially as an american president who sees islam in many manifestations a as problem, a threat and a way to play to his own base, i dont see it as sustainable. And this is going to be a good trip. The meetings will be good meetings. In a couple years time when you have a bunch of saudis and their kids that having a harder time with the trips to the United States being in university, you know, tsa shake downs and this sort of stuff and they feel like its harder for them to operate and travel to america, and god forbid there are terrorist activities emanating from this part of the world against American Assets in the renal, i think its going to be much harder to maintain this as one of the longterm stable relationships the u. S. Has. One of the things they had against president obama is that they did not belief in the iran nuclear deal. Where is trump going to be on that. Trump said it was a horrible deal and he was going to rip it up. He did rip up others like the transpacific partnership. On iran he chose not to. It was never passed. Right. But he said were pulling out as opposed to getting it done. In the iran deal he said, yeah, its horrible. But he has put more sanctions and he is holding up the deal in part because he has heard from a number of sane advisors in the u. S. And in the region and in israel and in saudi arabia and the uae that if you unilaterally pull out of this deal all youre doing is empowering the iranians theyreler producing more oils. Other country less still do business approximate with them and theyre going to produce a nuclear capacity. The inspect rehearse going in and recollection tiller son said so far the iran i understand are living up to the deal. Thats the trump administration. I think it was intelligent in the same way that trump obsolete he, he has backed away from the idea that iran is the the nuclear deal needs to be ripped up and i think on all of those things, the Foreign Policy establishment in the United States can breathe a little bit more easily that policy is normalize. Because the israelis and the saudis are now on the same side on some crucial issues, whether its iran or whatever where its written or whatever it may be, that some of these countries may come out with additional motivation to do something about the israelis and the palestinian s . I think for the saudi perspective, they would clearly want something to be done. I think nobody is under any illusions now that youre going that this is solvable. This is intractable. And i think that the saudis would like to see some small tangible steps. I do think however that people have gotten some rupp away notions about the possibilities of what can happen between the so you haddies and israelis. As their interests have converg ed a lot of interactions have happened but in secret, and theres a lot of intelligence sharing, the sort of National Security establishments of the countries in the gulf and israel have gotten a lot closer, and they have warmer relations than private but there are real limits for how far that can get you and i think this administration is thinking a lot about this outside in approach. And this isnt something that can really change the dynamics of the situation. Its true that israel palestine isnt the center of gravity in the region. People have much greater concerns but it Still Matters and it places limits on what any of these autocratic leaders can do, particularly in public what do we know absent the iranian elections . At the end of the day, these elections matter and the Supreme Leader matters more and thats the transition that is going to ultimately determine to what extent iran is a country that the u. S. Can ever truly work with never mind embrace on the international stage. We also know, of course, that like in a place with hong kong the only people that can run for the presidency in iran are those self selected by the Guardians Council so its very limited. Including people like the former president. So i think that were going to find out very shortly whether or not we have a continued kind of reformist in the iranian context who very much is still playing a tough role against the americans and most of the west or whether we have someone that is truly going to start trying to close the iranian economy and that would, i think, limit their Economic Opportunities in the region. Either way, iran is the principle antagonist for key American Allies in the gulf Going Forward and thats only going to continue whether its yemen or iraq or syria. And again the russian issue matters. Keep in mind on the way to saudi arabia, just 24 hours ago, trump decides hes going to order another round of strikes against some Syrian Rebels that were supporting the regime. Now its clear look at the timing last time, he announces it xi ping and having cake and this time they announce it on the way to saudi arabia. The russians needly say we have a serious problem with this. We condemn this american attack. The closer the americans are get ting to promises with the saudis the more the iranians on the other side are going to have big challenges. The russian issue is not going to go away in any manifestation, not in europe, not in the middle east and certainly not for trump at home in the United States. Let me talk about one thing that is not part of the trip. The french election. Does that send a message that the european and Economic Commission and the european mmission is stronger than we thought . Well, i dont know about you cant say stronger. You cant win elections by say you go will dismantle it or withdraw from it. Are that le pen was able toel garner we would be shocked. So i think its hasty to see this as kind of a looking back moment. These forces are really strong through the europe. They failed in france but the kind of underlying issues and sentiments are going to be with us, not just in europe the sure of globalization. Inequality, standards of living, dealing with, you know, immigration and the stresses that that parts and that is unique in a are european context , different from our own context and those things are not changing so the challenges are enormous still. I think that is exactly right but the hardest part of trumps trip is going to be dealing with the french and german leadership because as much as he said nato is important, at no point has he said we need a strong europe, the transatlantic matters, he was supporting bmplets rexit. They have been public about it and distrust trumps positions on Climate Change and on the most important alliances since world war ii and trump has a lot of wood to chop before he can feel comfortable with these two important ally whose feel vulnerable with their american relationship right now. Rose back in a moment. Stay with us. The investigation of ties between russia and the Trump Campaign picked up new urgency this week. Robert mueller is former director of the fbi. On wednesday he was ed special counsel. He served in democratic and republican administrations. John karl enis a lawyer in private practice. Before that he served as assistant attorney general fore National Security and chief of staff to mueller during this time at the fbi. I am pleased to have him on this program. With just. Thank you. Describe the Robert Mueller you know. Theres no one i have worked with in 20 years, in deposit that i admire more than bob mueller. She an american hero. He is someone who day in and day out is dedicated to the task at hand, cares about getting it light and doesnt care about the limelight. What is his new role as special counsel. In the new role he las been appointed unprovision that has rarely been used. Some people will remember the independent counsel statute. That was different. At the end of the take the independent council would report to the house of representatives with their findings and recommendation of impeachment. This isnt bring reg as independent. Instead, it reports to, in this case, the now acting attorney general for this matter rod rose steen. The Deputy Attorney general because the attorney general has recused himself. Yes. He said he recused himself. Rod became the acting attorney general and under this statute the special counsel still reports to him but has a degree of independence no other prosecutor would have. He is handling the Justice Departments investigation. He is agenting as a prosecutor handling the Justice Departments vision. He will have available to him all of the information the fbi had and anyone else . I would expect in this case he would continue to work with the fbi as the investigators and get he information from any other Government Agency that is relevant and have the ability to con veen and use grand jury to issue process, follow up on investigative leads and seek things like search warrants and to do interviews. Rose we will have therefore a lot of investigations going on Senate Intelligence committee, house intelligence committee, Justice Department, and what else . And its important to think about for this investigation what it is and what it isnt. One thing about bob mueller as director and prosecutor, throughout his career, if you give him a mission, he will do it to the best of his ability. But hes also not going to go outside of the lines that mission. So i would not expect at the end of the day for him to do anything that is not prescribed by this regulation, which calls for i to think there will be a report at the end of the day but the report focuses around whether or not to bring criminal charges. If there are criminal charges dont expect him to talk about anything outside of the four corners of that indictment. Lindsey graham from South Carolina said this after the meeting with rod rosen rosenstein, he said this is now a criminal not counterintelligence investigation do you recall do you agree with that . We will see. There is a broad range counterintelligence investigation, and rightly so because its important not lose site of the fact that a foreign power tried to undermine our electrical system. They attacked democracy. Not one party or the other democracy. And its very consistent with what russia has been doing now for years in europe. We saw them do it before they attacked our tems and we have seen them do it afterwards in terms of attacking french elections. Thats the threat that is looming out there, and that counterintelligence investigation needs to proceed and we also need to think about that as a policy Going Forward, how do we protect ourselves if they try to do that again. Thats not bob muellers mission his mission is as special counsel to determine whether or not crimes have been committed. Collusion is the word that has been bantered around. He has a broad mandate. Its to investigate any crimes that might be committed as a result of the russian efforts to interfere with our effort. And perjury including it. It looks like anything that may have arisen out of that, so perjury, obstruction, any other crime that may have arisen out of that was part of rods memo. Help me understand how these investigations are not going to collide with each other. They need the same witnesses for the most part . We will v. To see. When i was at the department of justice at times we would weigh in with the Relevant Committee if they were doing an investigation and say, hold on, dont interview x witness, dont ask for y document because that might undermine our on the to do our investigation and hold someone responsible. We try too navigator it if it was an important issue where there were clear Public Policy reasons why congress was holding hearings, clear oversight or intelligence reasons so they could provide but in a way that wouldnt prevent us from bringing and doing our jobs and to see there theres a charge to be brought up at the end of the day. What did you think about the memo written by rod rosenstein. Its always hard when youre sitting outside and you dont have the full set of facts nor the person whose task is to make the decision. I know how hard it can be inside of those spots. But i think its critical what came out came out. I mean the American People need to know is that the basis for firing a spot that by statute, by tradition, by custom, has been independent from the political branches . And im speaking of fbi director the president said he was intending to fire him anyway. He said he was intending to fire him before the memo was written. And he also said one of the reasons was because of the Russian Investigation which is why i think its the correct decision that he was thinking about the Russian Investigation when he fired him. As soon as he said that it became vital to preserve the integrity of our institution to have a special counsel take a look at it. You cant be in considered responsible for that chason command after that. It could have been interpret ed and i think some of the trump people have suggested what he meant by that was that he expected the Russian Investigation would results in the controversy that would flareup after this, not whether this would stop the Russian Investigation. We sean hannity the former prosecutor passed judgment from outside but our role is when do you want to recuse ones self and it depends there was certainly the appearance of a conflict which is why i think its great stranges indispensable man has been called back into duties once again, bob muller and is filling that role. Theres no one more trusted along the guesswork his wrong career as marine, federal prosecutor and local prosecutor doing homicide and fbi director than bob muller. What is his relationship with james comey. I have always thought they were friends. There are people who are both steeped in the tradition. Hes is not a mentored proteegee. Its not mentor proteegee. It is not. Theyre very different people rose how so . Bob mueller i will 85 you some examples. When i worked for mueller, every day he wore button do you think red tie, jacket. Rarely took over his office. When comey took over, he made a point and i was in the briefing that day when we were getting the threat briefing and i to a double take because he showed up in that fbi sioc wear i believe a blue spirit and not the most traditional blue. And so they have different personalities, and also you know when prepping, descrr mueller, we prep with him hours and hours on end and he read his materials very carefully, she not a casual public speaker, director comey is one of the only witnesses have seen testify before congress that fave his Opening Statement without reading it. He did it with no notes. So two different personalities. I think they were steeped in Justice Department tradition and had a deep understanding of the special role of the fbi. And what did the rank and file of the fbi agents think about james comey and especially after he was fired . You know theres a lot of discussion a lot of discussion about that. From what i knew, director mueller, who, as i said, i respect more than anyone in the world, he was respected in the fbi. But i dont know that he was loved. Because for all of the reasons im saying she not warm and fuzz y. He is often he was in a difficult period of transition for the fbi as we moved from being primarily a Law Enforcement agency to one whose job was to prevent acts from occurring like terrorism. Director comey when ewent around , heave may have had a lot of emphasis on improving morale and chime at after a period of change and he was believed by the agents in the field. Comey. Combese was believed. There are those tbho they say didnt lining him and say he made had a lot of mistakes n your judgment and observation they were wrong . There may have been some who disgreed with the decisions that he made. And i tell you one thing director comey believed in deep ly was measuring how people felt. And they put out a Climate Survey constantly within the fbi and i would be curious to see the results and whether that did or didnt dip. What are the questions that comey will have to answer . And if you were there, as if a lead interrogator of hip, what would you want to know. So theres different aspects to that. One might be what type of interview would you do or questions would you ask in relation to a criminal investigation. The other would be the broader mandate of the house and the senate about what is happening here between the executive branch and the director of the fbi and this could be a different set of questions. I do think at the end of the day its important if get as much transparency as we can without damaging any sensitive sources or methods because again the question here is so critical to the functioning of our democracy , to make sure that people leave this episode feeling they know what occurred and that the fbi is going to operate with the integrity that it always has Going Forward. If you are the chief of staff for the fbi director where you were, and the president of the United States said i want you guys to go easy on this investigation, wowbts you go tell somebody . Isnt that a clear obstruction of justice if there was an intent . 12k34r6 well you always im always hesitant to their something a crime without doing the investigation. But i cant think of something we would take more seriously and it did not occur in my tenure there than if the president of the United States had told the director of the fbi explicitly, dont investigate somebody because theyre my friend, because it will look bad whatever the reason. That would be its a red flag. Its a total red flag, and its hard to imagine it happened i lead some of the public report and we will learn more about what actually did or didnt happen later. Rose we talked about these issues before. Turning to the recent cyberattack, it seems to be happening all the time now. So we saw massive we did talk about it before and one of the things that we talked about was ransom wear and the way these blended threats you dont really know overseas if its a crook or nation states or a terrorist group, and we are at a moment of great vulnerabl ability and we havent done what is necessary. Two thoughts on this. First, we moved almost everything that we value from annal catalog Digital Space in 25 years from paper too digital and we connected it through a protocol that was never designed to be secure in the first mace and we to so without thinking about risk and what bad guys might do. Thats why Something Like did the bad guys get hold of the protocol. They know how the internet works and where the gaps are, and the capability of nation states theres no internet connected system in the world that is safe from adversary at the high end, be that a russia or organized Sophisticated Group the stuff that is connected through the internet, knot safe. And flfers a dramatic example of that, because its not even the best malware. It affected hundreds and hundreds of thousands of companies and it wasnt particular lip well designed version of ransom wear. They have to be like the worlds worst crooks or they have a different intent. What they did, they infected all of these peoples computers and maximized Law Enforcement attention making it most likely someone figures out who did it and catch them and at the same time they made barrelly any money. Less than a hundred thousand dollars so far. The fact is, if you pay them off with the ransom wear you dont get your data back. As soon as people found that out theyre not going to pay them. When this happened i asked a nun of people do you think this was the act of a nation state oar some other nonnation state actor . And they all said nonnation state actor. Then later they said north korea i think it was too early to tell. In the case that we presided over, theres the sony case about north korea. In that case you saw north korea attempting to change the content of a movie. But you help the deputy of the National Security director say most say north korea was responsible for the attacks on the swift, the Banking Institutions and the reasons they were doing that was to mach a buck, not a political point. But you say we are not prepared. Were not prepared. Not only are we not prepared now we are about to transform as we move to the internet of things and connect things like that the first pacemakers that were put into peoples bodies and they were not encrypted a12yearold using Public Software could kill these devices that were in their hearts and then they tried to patch and fix the system. Its vital on the front end we focus on security by disiefnlt we dont joaft the just roll it out and then think about the consequences. Rose we think the north koreans are pretty good. You know the scary think charlie, theyre pretty good. Theyre not that great. And think about how much damage they could cause. And the russians are considered to be top. The russians i think are if theres anybody. As good as anyone. Near the top. The United States, russia, israel is very capable of the space and china is get interesting. Great to see you. We elaborate back. Stay with us. Roger ailes died yesterday. He was 77. The controversial media titan had been a mainstay of the American Media for more than four decades. He is best known for launching fox news in 1996 with financial backing from rupert murdoch. Combative, and created a news network to combine politics and entertainment. Loyal right wing audience made fox news an empire. He stepped down last year following allegations of Sexual Harassment. He was described as a brilliant broadcaster who played a huge role in shaping americas media. Gabe sherman, National Affairs editor new York Magazine and author of the loudest voice in the room, how far the bombastic roger ailes built fox news and a divided country. And. And Jim Rutenburg has an interesting piece about roger ailes in toes times. Pleased to have you both. Welcome. Lets do this in the beginning. Lets assume all of the things that became and tainted roger ailes career, all of the Sexual Harassment stuff, had not been there. What would be his legacy well, i think politically his legacy is creating his current moment we live n i mean he created Donald Trumps america by fuzing politics and entertainment and making those values paramount to winning elections. So donald trump sort of one of the tragedies of roger ailes life is that his down downfall and death came at his greatest political triumph which was put ting a reality tv star in the white house. And i think theres the politicization of the news media , fox news by bringing conservative talk to television, to prime time, certainly gant trend of a kind of divided and split because the media environment now we have alternative facts and different views of reality. Brought on before trump e. Trump came to power. It was creeping in. Death panels would get covered there, birtherrism was covered for everybody bit a little more room. The tea party. They fostered the tea party. That said, rairls knew where there was a line. So when sean hannity becomes the face of the tea party, event ually its too much and he could pull him back. So roger tried to walk this fair and balanced line where they did news and really far right at times. Dean hendrick well that was part of roger ailes genius and the propaganda mention of fox news is knowing where just to push against the line and then pull back so they to could answer their critics to the Mainstream Media to say we are fair and balanced and in fact they were delivering a message to their audience. The message was . The message was that liberals and elease were keeping the common men down. Essentially they are the fox audience is the trump voter. What happens to fox news without rails. Well its a tremendous question. Because what has happened since rails left is bill oreilly left because of a similar megan kelly left. His deputies are leaving. So where does this and there was a certain roger whereas too smart to follow one strict formula, but the people that worked for him knew how to make it a formula and run fox. Now theyre in a reinvention period and its a big if. For the first time in years they have lost in a demo in prime time. They are trailing cnn and msnbc in the audience. I cant remember a time really since the iraq war that fox news has not been the dominant player in cable prime time. Heap had a capacity to creativity stars in a big way. Bill oreilly and sean hannity and megan kelly. This gets to the svengali, effect. He would take looked over or passed over permits like bill oreilly who had been fired from any number of jobs and roger ailes reinvented him as an avatar of the working mans right. The downside is that ails required ultimate loyalty from his talent and it really was a cultive personality inside the hallways at fox news and people were terrified to speak publicly and cross ailes and that is the culture of silence that he created that unfortunately led to the pervasive culture of harassment that we only saw come to the public foreafter Gretchen Carlsons lawsuit. What happens to be brought down by the sexual scandal that brought him down . As i covered him in my reporting shticks a pattern of behavior that happened throughout his career. I interviewed women on the record who recounted these experiences bay back to the mike douglas show. You could argue thats a different era, the mad men era where sex and application were kirch. I think roger ailes got to the point he thought he was all powerful and to me its a story of a man consumed by ambition and creating a personality at fox where he thought he could do no wrong and he thought he was untouchable. Rhames s roger ailes even stood up to resumer murdochs children and he clashed with them and time and again rupert sided with ails over his family. He would say, ronalder can report to me. He doesnt have to report to anyone else. And he would go to rupert and threaten to quick and he would say, no, roger, we love you. He was providing a huge percentage of foxs revenue. And also gabes reporting of his book by all accounts in the reporting, especially now after his death, made roger gain went for im going to tell this story, i dont want to speak for you, and roger became very bunkered in. As as he became more bunkered in , what were hearing now is that roger over the years last his fastball and became paranoid and wasnt the same person who created his network and that legacy of people will debate this now for years to come, but things shifted on roger ailes and then they left. Before he lost his job what was his relationship with trump. They were speaking more frequent ly than people know. One might say that he was pushing his network behind trump the network part was already there. That said, megan kelly was out there, his biggest star fighting regularly and his news people, wallace, bret baier were cover ing in a direct way but no question his closeness with trump. This point about rails losing his fastball, i have written about this, after ailes is forced out of fox news he is called to go to debate prep and become a formal unpaid advice tore the campaign. Ailes gets to the room with all of trumps top advicers and the guys start looking around and realize ailes is just telling old war stories and blaming me for his downfall, my book and trump and the advisors are looking at their shoes and say ing this guy is not adding a lot here. That is the only time he was pushed fast margin of trump world. Thank you. Rose here are some excerpts of interviews didnt i with roger ailes. Up knew him a long time. Most are from the early 2000s. Here they are. Whatever the ratings comparison is, what has led Fox News Channel to be considered here to stay. I hire good people. I mean that is really it. When i left msnbc, when i let cnbc and i started a small channel called america is talking which became msnbc, 82 people left with me to start fox even though there was no network at that time. And they were good people. I was able in six months to pit together a cable channel because i had some very trusted people, five Vice President s, several people who really knew their jobs, and so i was able to focus on launching the channel which is a huge task. Because even today, we have about 30 percent of the resources of cnn. I mean cnn has 4,000 people. We have a think. But i think it all comes down to people and a vision. Rose Jean Michel Basquiat painting of a skull sold at south wes last night and is the sixth most expensive painting sold at an auction i spoke with Yusaku Maezawa who about the painting. Lets start. How did you go from being a lawyer to gallery owner. Well it has ban long and circuitous path but i went wack to the beginning. When i got out of college i got to know antibody and basquiat and i ran around as a 20 yearold thanks to a friend, and he was a dear friend of andi s so the art world was always glamorous and exciting for me. As soon as i professional fetion ly had the wherewithal i began to collect and collect what i knew and the people i knew and the moment i was excited about. That makes you a collector but not more. Now you have two galleries. And i have done a bunch of writing. I have written two books on collecting. I wrote for the observer for four years which i enjoyed and i also love markets and the art market is so exciting and interesting. Lets talk about that. What is the art market like today. Well, weve been on a bull run since, last say, 2000 late 90s. I mean we have been on a tear really. And when we had the recession in 2008, lehman crises and all of that, it was my perception that we would really sort of take take a break for a couple of years, because its usually like two or three years when the market takes a pause. But in this case dpea zero nine was a weak moment. You could have jowmped in and bought a basquiat. But i would say by 2010 we were back on the tear and we have been in a rising art market since 2010. A lot of new people came into the game. A lot of different people came in the game and the prices have continued to move. How are they different. Well, the prices are higher. And we had brazilians we had a lot of asians. Weevdz e. We have had chinese buyers and indo neetions and ma lations and the european being and the american collectors but i would say the art market is globalized in a new way. And stretches across the world in terms of who is buying and where theyre buying. Theyre buying mostly in new york and london. You have markets all over the world, but the asians have been very strong. The braz brazilians were big buyers but their economy dropped and now china has picked up. This painting sold to an amazing japanese man who became infatuated with basquiat and found his dream come true, one of the greatest was equation in the world, so was indicate in the world, something he could buy. If you look at the 2001 and just coming up and what is selling. Does the after the market have does it have in a sense a kind of ebb and flow of who is popular. Absolutely. The fashion swings are huge. And the idea that art is forever and temporal is of course a fantasy. Impressists and modern is soft and the contemporary market has been on a bull bull run 15 years if you look at basquiat and warhol. When warhol died the work was un salable. Then it reached over a hundred Million Dollars at auction. Basquiat has been slowly growing but back in the 90s you could buy that for nothing. I mean he died he died in 1998 sadly of a drug overdose. And very young too. I think he was 28 years old. Has tasty involved too . Is it really taste or is it fashion . And what is the difference . I think what is interesting about art is that its a cocktail of different factors but certainly between the museums, the collectors, the writers, the critics and the artists themselves, all of this comes into play. So therefore different trends. Right now we have been in a trend for monochromatic art and away from figurative but that will, in time, reverse and there are always outliers and depositions to the rule so its hard to say its one thing. People like to say its fashion and dismiss it. The truth of the matter is, everything is fashion. I mean internet stocks evaluations are a fashion. Uber it is a fashion and in one second everything could disappear. Everything is subject is fashion , this jacket, this shirt , this room d. So people like to use that to say art is only fashion. But its not falings. What is art . Art is history. After the is our collect part of our collective cultural history so in that sense its something that isnt temporal because it is forever and we will always have art and art will always be an important ingredient of our society. Theres a new term art advisor. You may be one of those. Well what is an art advisor . Yeah. Its like the idea if you need a Financial Advisor to diversify your portfolio, so now you need a art advice tore diversify your collection. Its also the idea that you cant really trust the dealers because the dealers are trying to el sell you their stuff so you need an advisor to go between yourself and the galleries and cherrypick what is best for you in your portfolio which is your art investment. And the truth is, art advisors have been around soft when new people come around, into our market, they need someone to d people have come to me for advice but i dont pro profess so just strictly in stick to art advisory but it has back booming industry, and its a by the like the yoga world. There are few legitimate teach ers perhaps who can instruct you and bring you into the ghoul deal. But for the most part everyone has handgun shingle and everyone is an art advisor. What determines the success of the auction houses . Well we dont really know now , do we . Its impossible. Its a theater. Every auction is a theater. One of is private, chris tease and the other is public, south bees. We did can can see through the numbers and we dont know what deals were necessarily done. And sometimes the payments can be slow, you know, some people pay on time. Some people perhaps never pay. But that is nature of the beast. I mean this is the art world after all. This is not the financial world, and really if you look on wall street i used to work on a trading desk in oppenheimer. We had failed against s deals all the time. But want to could short a deal and actually bet that the deal was going no fall apart. The art market it means youre own and it youre in to wit. Win it. Do most people buy to put on display . I have heard of people who put it buy a painting and put them in storage. Absolutely. Its a huge thing. Meme are buying paintings and putting them in freeport. This way they dont pay any taxes and this city is full of foreigners who avail themselves of our market and our city. A very good peace of art over goes down. It will simply be sold to a more and more demanding buyer. Some great artists fell by the wayside. Look at the great painters of the 80s of. Theyre not in native. What determines it other than supply and demand. I think zeitgeist. Theres a zeitgeist. Theres a feel. With who creates the zeitgeist. The cite gift is a combination of dealers, collectors and the real world. Life. I dont think that warhols work was as important in the 80s as it is now but the world 20 in his direction. He foretold the media. He foretold the internet in a sense, the idea that imagery can take it from one place and put it in another and celebrity and the importance of Marilyn Monroe anall of these that i think. And moo see thing and all of this. Thats what made it important is what happened in the future. So i think in the moment we cant always know. We ke know what we know know but the future will tell. What kind of man was andy warhol. A very strange man. Im certainly knot one of his best friends but he would you know him. I knew him. He would just say great, wow, wonderful and never let you know. He was a camouflage figure. Always had a camera, always taking pictures. I met him once or twice and he always had a camera and took pictures. But in the 80s when i was a 20yearold in new york, he was more famous than his work. In other words he was famous as a celebrity but his work had sort of kind of fallen by the wayside. At that time oar i think so. But grown significantly since then. Well now. Now, you have people calling him one of the three or four painters of the 20th century. Well we have picasso and we have warhol. Those are the two biggest art markets. I think the entire art market is picasso and warhol and you have calder and a few other names. And thats 50 percent of the market. And then Everything Else shares the left. So the picasso market is just billions of dollars a year globally. And pick caps owe alone represents i dont know what the number is, but itler is varies on the year depending on what sales but it can be 20 of the year overall market. Look the i think me represented 15 to 20 percent of appear evening sale. Then he went to zero. Now he one kind of crawling back and people are talking about whether or not he is going to make a a comeback or not. One collector can make an artist, can they not. Huge if its a significant collector. I think someone with come in and invest and collect and make it happen. That being said, other people have to come to the party. You cant just do it by yourself. No. Pino has been amazing collector with a huge position, owner of chris tease, luxury expwrandz a great investor, very smart money he can come in and buy all of the stengels in the world. Steng el can have a show eight the whitney but at the end of the day others have to come in and convince the world this is art that is here to stay. So what do you expect for what is happening this week . This is going to be an exciting week because weve got one great collection at christy s which is the spiegel collection. What is good is not necessarily necessarily the crises but the freshness. What is fresh is more and more important. That is what has changed so much we have asked this often. What does it mean to have a great eye. You dont think about much eye you look like i dont believe in the idea of having a good eye. Its a all about comefers and i think to have a good eye is understanding what the artist was about and the intent, the historical content, what the artist was trying to express and the relevance of what mat means. I do believe in a great eye. People with a great eye do well collecting. Someone is like why do you like this or this one. I dont know. I can just tell you thats the one or i can tell you thats a fake, that is not right. I just know it. But i do think having a great eye is extremely important but if youre collecting these days you also have to have a good nose. So you need to sort of know what things are worth and when is the time to buy or you know if theres an opportunity. If you buy for investment when is the time to sell. Yeah. It depends on what your goal is. Thank you for coming. Great to have you. Thank you for joining us. See you next time. For more about this program and early episodes visit us online at pbs. Oral organize and charlie rose. Com. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Youre watching pbs. A kqed television production. Its sort of like old fishermans wharf. It reminds me of old san francisco. And youd be a little bit like jean valjean, with the teeth, whatever. And worth the calories, the cholesterol, and the heart attack you might have. Its like an adventure, you know. Youve got to put on your miners helmet. It reminds me of oatmeal with a touch of wet dog. I did. Inhaled it. People when they say sommelier or something