Transcripts For KQED PBS NewsHour 20170201

Major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by xq institute. Bnsf railway. Lincoln financial committed to helping you take charge of your financial future. And with the ongoing support of these institutions this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Woodruff tonight at the white house, President Donald Trump named neil gorsuch as his nominee to the United States Supreme Court. Here is a bit of what mr. Trump and judge gorsuch had to say in the east room of the white house. Judge gorsuch was born and raised in colorado, and was taught the value of independence, hard work and public service. While in law school, he demonstrated a commitment to helping the less fortunate. He worked in both harvard prison, Legal Assistance projects and the harvard defenders program. Brilliance being assured, i studied every aspect of his life. He couldve have any job, at any law firm, for any amount of money. But what he wanted to do with his career was to be a judge to write decisions, and to make an impact by upholding our laws and our constitution. The qualifications of judge gorsuch are beyond dispute. Hes the man of our country, and a man who our country really needs, and needs badly to ensure the rule of the law, and the rule of justice. I would liked to thank senate leadership. I only hope that both democrats and republicans can come together for once for the good of the country. Woodruff we then heard from judge gorsuch. Lets take a listen. Here in the house acutely aware of my own imperfections. I pledge that if im confirmed, i will do all my powers permit, be a faithful servant of constitution laws of this great country. I respect it is for the congress to write new laws and not alter the wurchg of the peoples representatives. A judge who likes every outcome he reaches is very likely a bad judge. Stretching for results he prefers rather than those the law demands. Mr. President , i am honored and i am humbled. Thank you very much. Woodruff our john yang is at the white house and joins us now. This decision was made. I tell you judy, just 12 days into his presidency, mr. Trump has taken a step that could leave a lasting impression on the nation for years to come. But thats not the only reasons that this whitehouse took this decision so seriously and so importantly. It also meant a great deal to the voters who got mr. Trump to the whitehouse. Campaign officials acknowledge that his relief in september of a list of potential justices really was a key factor in cementing and shoring up his support among christian conservatives. Now, even before we knew the name of the nominee, white houses press Secretary Sean Spicer today previewed the whitehouse taste for that nominee. He said hes eminently qualified and meets the criteria that Even Senate Democratic leaders vetted mr. Trump for a potential nominee. Once this nomination gets to the other end of pennsylvania avenue, judy we know the democrats will have other things on their minds than just judge gor saturday chs qualifications. We heard him thank the republicans working on this. John yang at the whitehouse. Obrien of course, judge gorsuch needs to be confirmed by the senate. Our Lisa Desjardins has been tracking the response from capitol hill and joins us from our newsroom. Whats the initial reaction. Imagine this. It seems senators had statements friend for this moment. No surprise republicans are very happy with this choice. But democrats, its a mixed reaction, miles. We already have one no vote. Thats from ohio senator sharod brown. He is opposed to this nominee. Every democrats are varied but Chuck Schumer has said he is not deciding whether judge gorsuch meets his criteria of being a mainstream choice but he said in a statement that he highly doubts it given his record. One other note, senator mark warner of virginia democrat came out with a statement praising judge gorsuchs record and education stow a little bit of warmth 24r frowarmth from one d. Most democrats seem to be holding their minds open but the real question is whether the republicans will get 60 votes. It doesnt look like they have it right now. If they dont visit will they change the rules of the senate to get this nominee on the Supreme Court. Lisa de desjardins will be tracking this. Woodruff and here in our pbs newshour studio, we are joined by Elizabeth Wydra, president of the progressive constitutional accountability center; michael carvin, former Deputy Assistant attorney general in the office of Legal Counsel during the reagan administration. He is now in private practice; Andrew Mcbride is a former federal prosecutor now in private practice. He worked with the new Supreme Court nominee when judge gorsuch was in private practice in washington, d. C. In the mid 90s; and from los angeles, Tom Goldstein, founder of scotusblog. Com. Welcome all of you to the program. Im going to start with you Andrew Mcbride. You worked with neil gorsuch. Tell us about him. I had the accomplish of working with judge gorsuch. Hes a tremendous guy. I think you heard the real neil gorsuch in his statement. He is understated. He is humble. For a resume, thats stellar. He is a very reserved individual. He was always a pleasure to work with. And as you know, in washington judy, there can be sharp elbows among lawyers who are working for the same climate. 2456s never ththat was never t. He added to the prurk. I followed him on the bench. His rulings remind me a lot of Justice Scalia in a number of ways. Justice oconnor i got to know Justice Scalia a bit. I think judge gorsuch has a bit of that libertarian streak that Justice Scalia had in the First Amendment area both freedom of religion and freedom of the press and Fourth Amendment area where hes made some privacy decisions that might have surprised some conservatives. Elizabeth wydra whats your take. Lilibertarian streak in part. I have questions on his records on reproductive access. First and foremost based on Donald Trumps stated litmus test of appointing someone who will be willing to overturn roe vs. Wade. Serious concerns about him willing to apply the law to all not just the wealthy and powerful. Will he stand up for workers right against corporation wrong doings and consumer protection. We cant ignore the back drop from what weve seen since the beginning of the trump presidency. This is the person who chose gorsuch as his nominee. Ghoach hagorsuch has to show het share these extreme authority authoritarian view points. If thats the tester kind of questions posed to judge gorsuch how is he going to answer those. He will answer them the same way Justice Scalia is what is the rule of law each in the statute that congress enacted or in the constitution that our framers wrote. Hes not going to impose any kind of personal views either pro trump or antitrowel, hes going right down the middle. In term of the analysis andrew referred to, he devoutly freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Unlike my friend he doesnt think freedom of religion means freedom from religion so hes certainly not youre talking about elizabeth. I dont know who youre talking about. When we talk about things like contraceptive access. What he was simply saying is Little Sisters of the poor and people like that shouldnt have the federal government impose their morality on them, make their expend their insurance dollars for something they view as sinful. Thats not a conservative or liberal view point thats following the statute congress enacted in a bipartisan way that says certain religious beliefs should not be substantially burdened by the federal government. Were hearing Tom Goldstein is joining us from los angeles. Probably the outlines of some of the discussion that were going to be listening to during judge gorsuchs confirmation hearing in the senate. What do you see the senators followinfocusing on. Ideology and that is democrats are very upset that president obamas nominee for this slot, chief judge maker garland was blocked so they are going to look for every opportunity to object to Donald Trumps nominee for that same position. When it comes to particular lines of decisions, i do think religion is going to be a real fault line here because judge gorsuch does have some significant opinions there. And also just a narrow reading of provisions of the constitution that progressives have relied on for a long time that involve things like reproductive rights. Well pick up on that, Andrew Mcbride. What do you see in his record thats going to become an issue . Well, he wrote a very long book about yout euthanasia thatm sure people will look at the contest of other constitutional rights. Of course there is no constitutional right to euthanasia. I will make two points to what tom said. First, i think judge gorsuch is not an activist. I mean of the three that were in the running at the end, he is the most like i would say a measurinmerric garland. He has a stellar record, understated person, a careful person. Someone who looks at the law and tries to make the best decision by the likes of the law not by his or her own personal belief. And so i think its a home run hit by the president. I think democrats would be quite fool orish to oppose this nomin. I think smart democrats will wait for the next nominee who might replace Justice Kennedy and say well you know now thats a swing vote for the court. But i think opposition to this nominee is just foolish. If youre upset because chief judge garland who is eminently qualified didnt get it, you know, yes. But there was an election, you know and now President Trump picked someone qualified who is not outside the mainstream if you will and should be confirmed. Liz beat were hearing Andrew Mcbride compare neil gorsuch to the man president obama picked for the court who didnt make it. I think it remains to be seen whether or not theres going to be a fighter o fight or not. I think people are starting out with fight in them. This seat was teo this is illegitimate but there are people saying were not taking anything off the table. We want to look at this record and see whether or not hes within that mainstream. Thats where the hearing, the questionnaire all of that is important because there are cases that dont come up were very concerned about. Even the broader idea is this someone going to be able to stand up for the constitution. Stand up frankly to the trump strietion. Beeweve seen cases coming on te travel refugee many are calling the muslim ban thats one of the big tests whether he will be on the check of the overreaching weve seen. Excuse me for interrupting. Michael, if his independence does become a question in the confirmation hearing, his ability to stand up to the Trump Administration or future administration how do you think he handles that. I think andrew elicited his track record. The Senate Democrats are not going to look to andrew or me to advice how to behave during confirmation hearings. That said, lets face it. This is just maintaining the status quo. This is just replacing Justice Scalia. The stakes are a lot higher if theres a replacement for Justice Ginsberg or Justice Kennedy and i think it would be very ill advised for the Senate Democrats to make this world war ii make them blow up the filibuster. If ifersz them i would hold my powder for the vacancy that matters in terms of the direction of the court. Tom goldstein way in on that and what the calculus may or may not be for this justice appointment. The inevitable fact is that judge gorsuch is going to be confirmed because hes in the mainstream of conservative legal thought. And President Trump elected him in part on the idea he would appoint somebody like judge gorsuch and they would have the votes in the senate. I dont see any prospects of hip being blocked. In terms of whether this is a consequential choice it really is. You are talking about someone who is going to extend the consferrive legacy of the Supreme Court for another quarter century or more. Hes a very young guy. Theres no doubt its already a serious serious nomination for a really important seat but it is the case there will be later title in which the court could become substantially even more conservative than it is. Democrats do have to decide at which point theyre going to kind of lay down on the tracks. All right. Weve only got just a few seconds left. Andrew mcbride since you know judge gorsuch tell us something we dont know about him. We dont know a lot about him. He is one of the best skiers in the United States. Hes a double diamond, double Black Diamond skier. And i think its very good theres someone from the west. Justice white obviously is a great guy in so many different ways and weve had a lot of d. C. Centric picks in the last. I think thats another message the president want to say. Harvard man. But a coloradoian in his heart. Thank you judy. All right. We will we thank you all. Once again Tom Goldstein joining us from los angeles. Andrew mcbride here in washington, Elizabeth Wydra and michael carvin. Thank you all. Thank you judy. Woodruff there was a lot of other news coming out of the Trump White House today. Back to john yang for that report. Reporter a night of Political Drama at the white house gave way to a day of defending President Trumps actions. White house press Secretary Sean Spicer for the attorney general to turn around and say im not going to uphold this lawful executive order is clearly a dereliction of duty. And she shouldve been removed, and she was. Reporter acting attorney general sally yates, an obama appointee, was fired after directing Justice Department lawyers not to defend the president S Immigration order. At present, she wrote them, i am not convinced that the defense of the executive order is consistent with my responsibilities, nor am i convinced that the executive order is lawful. Spicer insisted justices office of Legal Counsel did find the order lawful. That doesnt sound like an attorney general that is upholding the duty that she has sworn to uphold. At the end of the day, the attorney general either had a problem with her own division approving something but it wasnt the president she had an issue with. The president followed the process. Reporter meanwhile, Homeland Security secretary john kelly dismissed reports he was kept in the dark about the immigration order. I knew this was under development and i think we were in pretty good shape in how it was implemented by the workforce. Reporter the New York Times had reported kelly was not fully briefed until the order was being signed on friday, and that defense secretary james mattis was not consulted until just hours earlier. From day one, in terms of the inauguration, finishing touches, i would have to put it that way, were being put on the executive order. As i say, high level folks in the government, attorneys as well, were part of that. People on my staff were generally involved. Reporter but the acting commissioner of customs and border protection, kevin mcaleenan, conceded today the orders implementation could have been better. Communications, publicly and interagency, havent been the best in the initial rollout of this process. We have communicated with the department of state now and these guidelines will be on our website. Reporter mcaleenan said his agency had to create a waiver process for green card and special visa holders after the order took effect. At the capitol, House Speaker paul ryan said Top Republicans werent briefed until the executive order was being signed. I think its regrettable that there was some confusion on the rollout of this. No one wanted to see people with green cards or special immigrant visas, like translators, get caught up in all of this. Reporter press secretary spicer dismissed reports that the handling of the immigration order created tensions with g. O. P. Leaders. And amid the furor, the president spent most of his day in meetings. This morning, he urged executives from Major Pharmaceutical Companies to cut prices. Today, the white house also said the president will continue president obamas order barring discrimination by federal employers and contractors based on Sexual Orientation and gender identity. For the pbs newshour, im john yang at the white house. Woodruff the president also faces another legal challenge tonight. San francisco has filed suit against his order on socalled sanctuary cities. It cuts off federal aid to cities that shelter undocumented immigrants. Obrien in the days other news, Senate Democrats forced delays on three of the president s cabinet nominees. The Judiciary Committee had planned to vote on republican senator Jeff Sessions to be attorney general. Instead, the Committee Meeting grew contentious in the wake of last nights firing of the acting attorney general. We clearly saw what a truly independent attorney general does. I have no confidence that senator sessions will do that. Instead, he has been the fiercest, most dedicated, and most loyal promoter in congress of the trump agenda. Everyone on this committee, be they republican or democrat, knows senator sessions to be a man of integrity and a man of his word. Because we know him to be a man of his word, we know that he will uphold and enforce all laws equally. Woodruff meanwhile, democrats on the finance nominees Steve Mnuchin to be treasury secretary and tom price for health and human services. The nominee for secretary of education, betsy devos, squeaked through the Senate Education committee. It was 12 to 11, down party lines. But two republicans, Lisa Murkowski of alaska and Susan Collins of maine, warned, they still have serious concerns. I was surprised and concerned about mrs. Devoss apparent lack of familiarity with the landmark 1975 law i. D. E. A. That guarantees a free and appropriate education for children with special needs. When each of us have the opportunity to vote aye or nay on the floor, i would not advise that she yet count on my vote. Obrien three more cabinet nominees advanced to the full senate today for confirmation votes. The Energy Committee approved montana congressman ryan zinke as interior secretary, and former Texas Governor rick perry as energy secretary. And, the Small Business committee endorsed Linda Mcmahon to run the Small Business administration. Meanwhile, elaine chao was sworn in as transportation secretary, shortly after being confirmed by the senate. Obrien in eastern ukraine, heavy new fighting has erupted, with at least eight People Killed overnight. Ukrainian troops and russian backed rebels dueled with artillery and rockets on the outskirts of donetsk. It appeared to be the worst shelling in many months, and it briefly trapped hundreds of coal miners underground. Ukraines president blamed moscow translated our servicemen are successfully defending their positions. The only restriction is when criminals, russian rebels, deploy artillery systems, tanks and multiple missile rocket launchers in residential areas. We have clear evidence of that. Woodruff the Ukrainian Military and russianbacked rebels each blame the other for launching the offensive. Back in this country, the boy scouts of america now says it will accept transgender children who identify as boys. In a Statement Last night, the organization said its existing approach is no longer sufficient, as communities and state laws are interpreting gender identity differently. The Girl Scouts Organization has accepted transgender members for years. Obrien tonight marks the deadline for americans to sign up for Health Insurance under the Affordable Care act. It affects 39 states served by healthcare. Gov. States with their own insurance websites set their own deadlines. President trump and Congressional Republicans have promised to repeal and replace obamacare. The hotly debated Dakota Access oil pipeline may be moving closer to completion. According to north dakotas senior senator, the acting Army Secretary has directed the army corps of engineers to proceed with an easement thats necessary to finish the project. Protesters have rallied for months against the pipeline, saying it threatens Water Resources and sacred native american sites. Woodruff and on wall street today, subpar earnings from goldman sachs, boeing and others weighed on stocks. The Dow Jones Industrial average lost 107 points to close at 19,864. The nasdaq rose a point, but the s p 500 slipped two. Woodruff many questions remain about President Trumps executive order temporarily prohibiting citizens of seven majority muslim countries from entering the u. S. Perhaps chief among these questions does it make us any safer . Both today and yesterday, White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer fielded queries from reporters. Reporter some of the countries that have problems with terrorism are not on the list. Right, and were reviewing the entire process over this period of time to make sure that we do this right. But i dont think you have to look any further than the families of the boston marathon, in atlanta, in san bernardino, to ask if we can go further. Theres obviously steps that we can and should be taking, and i think the president is going to continue do to what he can to make sure that this country is as safe as possible. The fact you have countries like for example you mention saudi arabia or afghanistan where weve had attacks on u. S. Soil with connections to those countries so do you see those being added. Are you asking what is our concern to their reaction to us. Yes. Look, i think the president s number one goal is the protection and safety of the United States and its people. If they want to act in a way thats inconsistent with their concerns, then thats up to them to do it as a sovereign nation, but it is our duty and it is his duty to make sure that this country and its people are protected first and foremost. It cant be a ban if youre letting a Million People in. If 325,000 people from another country can come in, that is by nature, not a ban. It is extreme vetting. Woodruff so, is this policy effective . Does it make u. S. Citizens safer . For one perspective, i am joined now by michael leiter. He was the director of the National Counterterrorism center from 2007 to 2011, during both the george w. Bush and the obama administrations. Michael leiter, welcome back to the program. Whats your general reaction to what sean spicer is saying is the white house rationale for this . Well, i think as a general matter, it misses the point that much of this vetting is already going on. So the question is why stop it now . What are we going to add . And if the goal is to have a zerodefect system that no one will ever come to the u. S. Who later poses a danger to u. S. Citizens, then theres really only one way to accomplish that, and that is to permanently shut down all immigration. And the fact is, we cant do that. And we wouldnt do that. We have to make smart judgments based on facts about how we vet people, where we vet people, and where the threat really comes from. So based on all of those things, i really dont see this right now as being an effective counterterrorism tool. Woodruff youre referring to the number of terrorist incidents that have taken place in this country, a number of them were on the part of people who had been living here for a number of years. Thats right. Since 2001, 82 of fatal attacks in the United States from sunni extremist terrorism violent islamic extremists have been legal permanent residents or citizens. And the others werent from these seven countries. So by shutting down, at least temporarily, immigration from these countries, its a little bit like closing the barn door, but its not even the barn door where the horse came from. Woodruff so, michael, when the white house is asked, why these seven countries . They say these are countries identified by president obama, and this is at a time when you were in office, theyre saying 2011. They were identified at that time as being countries of concern. Whats the difference between what happened under president obama and what theyre doing now . Well, there is some truth there. I mean, these seven countries do represent country wheres theres a serious terrorism threat. But this these countries really grew out of paris attacks. And that issue involved people from European Countries who didnt need a visa, immigration visa at all. They were from visawaiver countries. You could just travel to the u. S. And under the obama administration, if people, say, from the united kingdom, traveled to yemen, then they would have to apply for a visa. What this order does was saying anyone traveling from those countries, theres going to be a pause. So i think theres some corallation, but its really using it for a very, very different purpose. And it misses, again, what the greatest threat was, which is people coming from visawaiver countries where the reviews are much less. Woodruff and, again, visa waiver countries normally being countries we think of as friendly, our allies, europe, other parts of the world, where their government is not viewed as a threat. Thats exactly right. There are three ways to get into the United States, a visawaiver country the u. K. , france, they dont have to apply, they dont get interviewed. Visa country like the seven where people are already being vetted, quite extremely, i would say. And then refugees, which really fall into a special category and to get special attention. Woodruff so when they say these are all designed to make the United States safer, to make american citizens safer, the answer is . I think the answer on these countries is, i dont see it. And we have to remember the ways in which this alienates the people with whom we have to partner, domestically and internationally. Its the Muslim Community in the u. S. , which helps us identify terrorists and radicalized individuals and stop them, and critically, its the International Partners that we need help from in the middle east and majority muslim nations who i fear will be alienated by some of these steps. Woodruff you mentioned the vetting process that already takes place, that was taking place through the obama administration. I was reading a piece just today or yesterday citing at least 20 different steps that someone has to take if they want to enter the United States from one of these countries considered suspect. How would you go about tightening just how tight is that process . And how would you go about tightening it, making it more stricter . Well, its hard to figure out, quite honestly, judy. And thats in part because it has been constantly improved. It was good in 2001 after 9 11. It wasnt perfect. And after 2011 and the underwear bomber, the Christmas Day bomber, it was tightened more. But today, every individual applying for a visa, they go through biographical checks from all of the National Security agencies the f. B. I. , d. H. S. , the c. I. A. They have biometric checks, fingerprints. And theyre finally interviewed before they even get that visa, and then they undergo additional screening while theyre traveling. So it is pretty severe. And in the cases of refugees coming out of syria, it is even more severe. And theyve already been screened by the u. N. Before handed over to the u. S. And in those cases, were generally not talking about what would be known in our circles as militaryage males, the ones youre most concerned with becoming terrorists. In the case of syrian refugees, thats less than 2 of the population. Woodruff one other argument ive heard the administration make is that these individuals come from places where they cant its the u. S. Cant believe what their government says about whether about their background, that its either a chaotic situation disorganized situation, or a government that the u. S. Would have no reason to trust. Theres no doubt that some cases like syria make it more difficult. But i think what you just repeated was really exaggerating how hard it is. We still have lots of databases. We have lots of information. We know email addresses. We know phone numbers. And searching those against the wealth of collection that the u. S. Intelligence community has can make connections that are important. Further steps that have been improved over the past several years involve looking at peoples social media profile. Thats really important to understand. We do have to demand that countries from which these people are coming are cooperating with the United States. That should be part of the visa process. So i think thats an important step that we demand from these countries that they provide with us information. But the idea that we simply cant get data about these people, i think misunderstands how the Intelligence Community and the vetting system has worked since 9 11. Woodruff michael leiter, thank you very much. Great to be here, judy. Thanks. Obrien aside from the National Security concerns, the president s executive order has ignited a fierce debate on its legality and constitutionality. We get two views, from neal katyal, a former acting solicitor general under president obama; and jonathan turley, a law professor at George Washington university. Jonathan, lets begin with you. Lets talk about the law. 1965, immigration and nationality act. What does it say, and how might it impact this executive order . Well, i think it can have an impact. Theres no question that the law says that you cannot discriminate on the basis of nationality or place of origin. And that certainly helps the challengers. But like much of this debate, much of that law has been distorted. It only takes you so far. First of all, the law doesnt apply to refugees. It applies to immigrants. Its used when you have visa issues. Also, it doesnt cover religious discrimination. Also, in 1990, the act was amended to exclude procedural changes as a form of discrimination. That that reduces the use of the 1965 law, i think, as a serious challenge. And, also it means that much of that order that is being challenged doesnt fall under the law. So even if one aspect might be challenged successfully, the other aspects of the order would remain. Federal courts have a longstanding policy to minimize the degree to which they strike down a piece of legislation or executive authority. Obrien neal, the way the immigration and nationality act is written, it mentioned an individuals place of birth or place of residence. It does not mention religion specifically. The executive order seemed to be narrowly tailored, trying to avoid the use of the word religion. So, in effect did they write an executive order which would run afoul of this law . Oh, they did. And dont be distracted by what you just heard from my friend jonathan. So, let me read the law, no person shall receive any preference or priority or be discriminated against in the issuance of an immigrant visa because of nationality. Now, this is most of what the executive order does, discriminate on the basis of nationality. Forget about the refugee provision. Its about green card holders. Its about anyone applying fair visa, a student, an employee of a company. You know, it applies broadly. Now, of course, it doesnt reach religious discrimination. Thats reached by the constitution, a seperate problem with the. So youve got two different things. Youve got, it violates the statute and it violates the constitution. And President Trumps advisers are pretending that this is 1952, in which this 1965 law didnt exist. But, unfortunately, it does. This is landmark legislation passed contemporaneously with the Voting Rights act. And it is just blatantly illegal under that law. Obrien all right, i feel like i need a gavel and a black robe here, gentlemen. Lets talk about the constitution first if we could. First amendment, very important amendment, as we all know, the establishment clause. Jonathan, it seems on the face of it that you could make a pretty good argument that this runs afoul of the establishment clause that basically says the United States does not get in the business of choosing religions. I think the most vulnerable aspect of the order is the one that gives preference to minority religions, and those people that were persecuted under them. That certainly is the weakest spot. But im still skeptical about whether you could make a successful establishment claim. Theres a lot of cases that have to be moved aside to get from here to there if you want to strike down this law. It is true. Theres establishment issues, but theres also plenary power in the hands of a president. Obrien all right, so the administration is trying to be very clear about saying this is not a muslim ban. But lets listen to candidate trump, december a year ago, when he first rolled out this idea. Donald j. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of muslims entering the United States until our countrys representatives can figure out what the hell is going on. applause obrien okay. And then last sunday, rudy giuliani, close adviser to President Trump in the campaign and through the transition, said this we focused on instead religion danger. Its not based on religion. Its based on places wheres there are substantial evidence that people are sending terrorists into our country. Obrien okay, counselor, so youre arguing this case. Are those comments admissible . Absolutely. And heres the thing. My last job was the chief litigation officer for the federal government, and i made took use of all the precedents that jonathan was talking about, about broad power in immigration. Nothing extends as far as what the president has done. This is religious discrimination, and heres what the Supreme Court has said about that. The clearest command of the First Amendment is that one religious denomination cant be officially preferred to another. This executive order prefers christians to muslims. Youve got it. The president himself said so contemporaneously when he issued the executive order to the christian broadcast network. This is just unamerican and unconstitutional. Obrien jonathan, did thencandidate trump and his adviser, rudy giuliani, more recently, did they undermine their own case . Well, they certainly undermined their case. I mean, the Justice Department attorneys are in fetal positions every time someone like this speaks about the purpose of a law. But the longstanding view of the Justice Department has been what legislators say about a law as to the motivation of the law is not controlling. Ive been in case wheres the Justice Department has maintained that position, that you have to look at the laws as to whether its lawful or constitutional. The court doesnt make assumptions or speculation about the motivations behind the law. If the law has an otherwise bona fide purpose, the courts tend to go with that. I dont see a court, any court saying that what a candidate said on the trail is going to be material in terms of whether this law is struck down. And im surprised that neal even suggests that. Ive been in cases where those types of arguments have been raised and courts have shot it down. For example, what if i mean, trump clearly said that. But he then gave this law to someone to draft, and they came back with a law that is not a muslim ban. Now, i dont like the law, but i dont think any court is going to look at this law and say its a muslim ban, because its not. Theres plenty to object about this law without making it something its not. It does not ban all muslims. Now, i know people dont like to say that because they, sort of like richard iii, you want to think of your enemies as worse than they are. You dont have to think about this law as worse than it is. It is not a muslim ban on a legal basis. Obrien but if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck isnt this legal parsing that they have come to this executive order . And when you look at the context and the comments, you have to come to the conclusion that at least religion was on their minds in some fashion. Oh, religion was more than on their minds. I think jonathan is just wrong. This is a First Amendment religion challenge in which the motivations of the law will be looked to and courts do so. And thats particularly underscored here. Because what has the new defense of this law been by the white house . Its oh, were not focused on religion. Were focused on security. Obrien all right, much to discuss here. Just in a word. Going to the Supreme Court . Will this end up in the Supreme Court . No, i think this is indefensible, and i think the Justice Department, after they lose in District Court after District Court, wont breng this even to the court of appeals. I certainly wouldnt have if i were in the government. It could go to the Supreme Court, but you have to be careful what you ask for. Were going to get a new nominee to that court and might not be the type of court you want to appeal this case if were with the a. C. L. U. Obrien neal katyal, jonathan turley, thank you very much. Obrien lets take a different look at the impact of the immigration orders, from the lens of Higher Education. Its the focus of our weekly segment, making the grade. There are nearly one Million International students on u. S. Campuses. The number of students who come from the seven affected countries is much smaller, about 17,000, and most of those are from iran. The president s temporary ban sparked anxiety and protests on a number of campuses around the country. Faculty and students both expressed worries about the wider message. Heres some reaction, first at the City University of new york, or c. U. N. Y. , and then from an iranian student at the university of alabama. I cannot look at the faces of merely half a Million Students of cuny, without seeing the faces and stories of millions around the world. 40 of our cuny students are born in another country. More than half of us speak a second language at home. At my campus alone, we have students representing over 150 countries. I just got a postdoctoral offer from another u. S. University, and im just worried about my future, let alone living in the u. S. Im worried that theyre going to deport me. Obrien more perspective on these issues now from angel cabrera, the president of the george mason university, the largest Public University in virginia, serving about 34,000 students. Born in madrid, cabrera is the first native of spain to lead an American University. Good to have you with us, mr. Cabrera. Thank you for having me. Obrien first, lets talk about your perspective as an immigrant yourself, having seen the University System here from spain, and now on the inside. Im curious how that affects your perspective on this whole issue. First of all, the american universities have a tremendous advantage around the world because theyre the number one place where students from all over the world want to study. I was there myself. I graduated from college from madrid, spain, and my dream was to come to one of the Great American research universities. And there are hundreds of thousands of students from around the world every year. Obrien and the Higher Education system here really does remain a magnet, doesnt it . Absolutely. Not only that gives the American University a great advantage but it gives an advantage, also, to the american economy. I mean, when you do the numbers and look at, for example, out of the recent startups, how many have reached 1 billion or more. About 40 of them have been founded or cofounded by a foreignborne individuals. Most of them, by the way, come to the u. S. To study. Obrien my understanding is most students dont have green cards. They have student visas. Thats correct. Obrien that means the carveout for green cards we have been talking about the last couple of days does not apply to most of these students. So give us an idea of the Immediate Impact on your campus and campuses in the u. S. In our case, we have 82 students who have what we call an f1 visa, which is a student visa from those countries and we have about five j1 visa holders, who tend to be exchange scholars. It could be a visiting professor, someone getting their ph. D. Here. We are trying to figure out where all of them are. I think we have accounted for most of them. We have heard, unfortunately, from one of our students from libya who was stuck in istanbul, trying to board a plane to come to us. So she may have to cancel classes this semester and try to figure out whether maybe she can take some of the class online. Obrien what is your advice to students whether theyre here or there . Well what were telling our employees, our students, our faculty is dont go anywhere right now until its more clear because if you step outside of the United States, you may not be able to come back in. Thats, of course, some of them have Research Projects or they may have family issues that require for them to go outside. Right now, were saying do your best to not leave the country. Obrien the idea, according to the Trump Administration, is to make things safer for americans. Just this past november, a somali refugee, student at ohio state university, had a stabbing spree. 11 people were injured before he was subsequently killed. Is there a sense among yourself and other College President s that this is a measure that could make things safe or campuses . Well, i dont have the data. I dont have the evidence. I hope that those people who make these decisions may have data that really links the presence of those kinds of students to National Security issues. We dont have that kind of evidence. On our campus, our students from those countries actually have never posed a threat of any kind. On the contrary, i think the presence of people from all over the world increases the understanding of our students. When youre in class with people from other countries you get to see the world in a more nuanced way. You start to understand how things are perceived from other angles. So from my perspective, one of the best things that one can do to in fact improve the understanding and diminish the probability of safety issues is to create understanding, is to engage in scholarly exchange. Obrien its worth putting this, i think, in context into the larger economic eco system. The Education System has a direct link to certainly Silicon Valley. Lots of Silicon Valley c. E. O. S came to the United States through this route specifically. Over time what impact would this have, ultimately, potentially on jobs in america . Well, i think when we talk about immigration, most people start thinking immediately about lowskilled labor. The part that is left out, and it shouldnt because its essential to the economy of the United States its the knowledge worker. Its the graduate student. 75 or more of graduate students in engineering and Computer Science in the United States today are immigrants. When you look at startups in technology, some of the most innovative companies, the ones all of our graduates want to work for, 40 of those who achieved 1 billion or more were founded or cofounded by immigrants. If you look at scientific achievement, 40 of the nobel Prize Winners in this country, whether its chemistry, medicine and physiology, or physics, about 40 were born outside of the United States. So our science is tied to immigration. Our innovation is tied to immigration. Obrien angel cabrera, president of george mason university. Thank you for your time. Youre welcome. Thank you for having me. Woodruff now we look at efforts to change the face of classical music, and shake up tradition while keeping true to the sound. Jeffrey brown has the story. Reporter an orchestra performing with singers see anything unusual . At a recent concert by the dallas opera, the focus was on the conductors women conductors. And in the still highly traditional world of classical music, that is unusual. This was the culmination of the Second Annual Hart Institute for women conductors. Six women and four observers, chosen from 156 applicants around the world, taking part in an intensive twoweek rehearsal workshop, combined with sessions on how to build and maintain a career. I have absolutely seen very talented women who are held back from where they ought to be. Reporter its the brainchild of dallas opera general director keith cerny. I think there are some individuals who are opposed to the idea of women leaders, whether on the podium or running large opera companies. Fortunately, there arent that many of those people, but theres certainly some. But more generally, i think its an issue where, because theres fewer women in those positions, search committees, and general directors and symphony c. E. O. S dont tend to think so much about hiring women for those opportunities. Reporter its just not part of their thinking . Its just not part of the thinking. Reporter according to Industry Data of the nine largest american opera companies, by budget, none has a female music director and principal conductor. And marin alsop in baltimore, who served on the faculty at the dallas workshop, remains the sole woman music director at the nations 24 largest orchestras. In dallas, cerny hired Nicole Paiement as principal guest conductor, and she played a large role at the institute, encouraging when you have an idea, which are always very, very good, reporter cajoling, teaching. Say one thing and then move on. You sort of explain it five times, but i think we get it the first time. Reporter paiement runs her own, Small Opera Company in san francisco, and travels the world performing with orchestras. I know there is that surprise phenomenon every time im guest conducting for the first time, they are surprised when i arrive on the podium. I dont have the physique; im a woman, a small woman. Reporter what do you mean . You sense that the audience is surprised . Not the audience but the musicians. When i arrive, i can feel that they are like, oh, okay, thats our conductor . And its a little bit of a surprise. It can be refreshing. Reporter but does that make you have to prove yourself . No, not at all because, they see what im doing on the podium is not there to be a leader and to be the boss, but to make music as a collaborative art form. And you know, the art of conducting has changed a great deal. The era of the tyrant on the podium. Reporter right, that stereotype. That stereotype is long gone. Reporter romanian conductor mihaela cesagoje recalls something she learned from her mentor. Marin alsop is giving a very, very good example, so if a woman goes and conducts with her hand like that, everybody, maybe they might say, oh, thats such a girly thing. But if a man does that, oh, hes so sensitive. So i think its a lot of question of perception, how people are looking, but i try not to focus so much on this, because if im thinking about this every day, then you just dont do anything. Reporter that was what we heard from others here as well, including the youngest participant, 26yearold tianyi lu, who grew up in new zealand, love the music, embrace the work, and focus on how to get better. But, theyre all used to being a outnumbered in this world. Ive been in master classes where im the only girl, and i think reporter and what happens . Well, certain things have happened, but i think for me, its more to do with, sometimes its very easy for everyone to pretend like theyre really confident. Whereas i dont think im the sort of person who can pretend as well as others. So i actually need real confidence, and that comes with time in front of the orchestra, time with people who are experienced giving me their suggestions, their support and encouragement, and for me thats the most important thing. Reporter time in front of a prestigious ensemble is key to the institute. For a conductor, the orchestra is her instrument. Rehearsals were augmented by oneonone sessions with more seasoned conductors, including italian conductor carlo montanaro. Is there something that a conductor has to have, you know, that you must have to be good . What makes a great conductor . Charisma. Reporter charisma . Knowledge, technique, being true on the podium, not faking yourself on the podium. Dont make a show, believe in the music youre conducting. Reporter do you see differences in women and men conductors . No, zero. Reporter zero. I see a musician, i dont treat them women, men, no. Reporter off the podium, there were other very practical lessons on building a resume and networking, whether and how to hire an agent; and developing executive leadership skills, in order to one day move into upper management. We really have to do our homework, we really have to educate ourselves if we are going to be in this field. You will most likely be the musical director of an orchestra. Youre going to have to deal with a board and a board is going to talk to you about numbers. Reporter american Elizabeth Askren has guestconducted in many leading european venues and, like the others here, is hoping one day to be a music director. She saw the institute as a great opportunity for learning with and from other women. Its a safe space for us to treat some of those issues. Some of which are just, you know, common, everyday things, questions that all conductors have to face. And then there are some issues to explore that may pertain to women. The fact that the numbers are rather low in positions of directorship why is that, can we talk about that . Reporter the dallas opera has made a 20year commitment to this institute. I asked general director keith cerny how hell judge success. It would be terrific to think that 20 years from now, this whole issue will have gone away, and men and women will be equally evaluated for positions on the podium. I think that may be a little optimistic, but reporter you do . I do, unfortunately, because, theres been no improvement, its been static for 25 years. I think it is starting to improve, slowly. Reporter from dallas, im Jeffrey Brown for the pbs newshour. Woodruff you know what i think, more women conductors. Obrien yes, said the maestra. Im miles obrien. Woodruff and im judy woodruff. For all of us at the pbs newshour, thank you, and well see you soon. Major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by lincoln financial committed to helping you take charge of your financial future. Bnsf railway. Xq institute. The ford foundation. Working with visionaries on the frontlines of social change worldwide. Carnegie corporation of new york. Supporting innovations in education, democratic engagement, and the advancement of International Peace and security. At carnegie. Org. And with the ongoing support of these institutions and individuals. This program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Captioning sponsored by newshour productions, llc captioned by captioned by kim boland here you can run into people that are just very likeminded. Its a conservative area. I have conservative values. Maria hinojosa Northern Idaho a haven for white conservatives. Norm gissel they come up here because theyre exhausted with multicultural issues. John alden weve had problems for 50 years now with any prayer in schools. Hinojosa still haunted by a history of extreme racism. Joshua hoston well see swastikas, well see various verses that are offensive. And he went like this. Dont come change idaho. Come and fit into idaho, and wed love to have you. This is the new america black, brown, asian, lgbt, immigrants. The country is going through a major demographic shift, and the numbers show it. The face of the u. S. Has changed. Christina ibanez were american. We care about the same things. But yet we also want to preserve our culture. I just see it destroying what we had planned to happen here. Hinojosa by 2043, we will be a majority nonwhite nation