Transcripts For KQED PBS NewsHour 20170131

Xq institute. Bnsf railway. Lincoln financial committed to helping you take charge of your financial future. And with the ongoing support of these institutions this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Woodruff President Trump is preparing to take up the next big item on his agenda tonight revealing his nominee to fill the vacancy on the u. S. Supreme court. He will address the nation at 8 00 p. M. , eastern time. It is widely reported that two federal Appeals Court judges, neil gorsuch and thomas hardiman, top the list of candidates. The announcement comes amid the uproar over mr. TrumpS Immigration moratorium, and a highlevel ouster at the Justice Department. John yang begins our coverage. Reporter a night of plitical drama at the white house gave way to a day of defending President Trumps actions. White House Press Secretary sean spicer for the attorney general to turn around and say im not going to uphold this lawful executive order is clearly a dereliction of duty. And she shouldve been removed, and she was. Reporter acting attorney general sally yates, an obama appointee, was fired after directing Justice Department lawyers not to defend the president S Immigration order. At present, she wrote them, i am not convinced that the defense of the executive order is consistent with my responsibilities, nor am i convinced that the executive order is lawful. Spicer insisted justices office of Legal Counsel did find the order lawful. That doesnt sound like an attorney general that is upholding the duty that she has sworn to uphold. At the end of the day, the attorney general either had a problem with her own division approving something but it wasnt the president she had an issue with. The president followed the process. Reporter meanwhile, Homeland Security secretary john kelly dismissed reports he was kept in the dark about the immigration order. I knew this was under development and i think we were in pretty good shape in how it was implemented by the workforce. Reporter the New York Times had reported kelly was not fully briefed until the order was being signed on friday, and that defense secretary james mattis was not consulted until just hours earlier. From day one, in terms of the inauguration, finishing touches, i would have to put it that way, were being put on the executive order. As i say, high level folks in the government, attorneys as well, were part of that. People on my staff were generally involved. Reporter but the acting commissioner of customs and border protection, kevin mcaleenan, conceded today the orders implementation could have been better. Communications, publicly and interagency, havent been the best in the initial rollout of this process. We have communicated with the department of state now and these guidelines will be on our website. Reporter mcaleenan said his agency had to create a waiver process for green card and special visa holders after the order took effect. At the capitol, House Speaker paul ryan said Top Republicans werent briefed until the executive order was being signed. I think its regrettable that there was some confusion on the rollout of this. No one wanted to see people with green cards or special immigrant visas, like translators, get caught up in all of this. Reporter press secretary spicer dismissed reports that the handling of the immigration order created tensions with g. O. P. Leaders. And amid the furor, the president spent most of his day in meetings. This morning, he urged executives from Major Pharmaceutical Companies to cut prices. Today, the white house also said the president will continue president obamas order barring discrimination by federal employers and contractors based on Sexual Orientation and gender identity. For the pbs newshour, im john yang at the white house. Woodruff the president also faces another legal challenge tonight. San francisco has files suit against his order on socalled sanctuary cities. It cuts off federal aid to cities that shelter undocumented immigrants. Obrien in the days other news, Senate Democrats forced delays on three of the president s cabinet nominees. The Judiciary Committee had planned to vote on republican senator Jeff Sessions to be attorney general. Instead, the Committee Meeting grew contentious in the wake of last nights firing of the acting attorney general. We clearly saw what a truly independent attorney general does. I have no confidence that senator sessions will do that. Instead, he has been the fiercest, most dedicated, and most loyal promoter in congress of the trump agenda. Everyone on this committee, be they republican or democrat, knows senator sessions to be a man of integrity and a man of his word because we know him to be a man of his word. We know that he will uphold and enforce all laws equally. Woodruff meanwhile, democrats on the finance nominees Steve Mnuchin to be treasury secretary and tom price for health and human services. The nominee for secretary of education, betsy devos, squeaked through the Senate Education committee. It was 12 to 11, down party lines. But two republicans, Lisa Murkowski of alaska and Susan Collins of maine, warned, they still have serious concerns. I was surprised and concerned about mrs. Devoss apparent lack of familiarity with the landmark 1975 law idea that guarantees a free and appropriate education for children with special needs. She has not yet earned my full support, and when each of us have the opportunity to vote aye or nay on the floor, i would not advise that she yet count on my vote. Obrien three more cabinet nominees advanced to the full senate today for confirmation votes. The Energy Committee approved montana congressman ryan zinke as interior secretary, and former Texas Governor rick perry as energy secretary. And, the Small Business committee endorsed Linda Mcmahon to run the Small Business administration. Meanwhile, elaine chao was sworn in as transportation secretary, shortly after being confirmed by the senate. Woodruff our Lisa Desjardins has spent much of the day at the capitol, watching the toandfro over President Trumps cabinet choices. And she joins me now. Lisa, welcome. So what is the strategy behind the democrats tactics in slowing down, delaying these nominations . The truth is, it depends on each committee. As you reported earlier, it seems the ones most indefinitely dlaitd are Steve Mnuchin and tom price. We dont know when thrael come up for a vote. Democrats say they want to talk to them again. They want more answers to questions. At the same time, Jeff Sessions looks like hell get a vote tomorrow. But all this delay in the end might not matter. Its really things like you report on, on betsy devos. Do they have enough republican votes to be confirmed. Woodruff so how are the republicans responding to this . They say this is bad acting on the part of democrats. They say this is democrats being sore losers, in the word of one republican. But on the other hand, democrats say they are playing hardball, and that they are reacting to President Trumps refugee order. They say that he is now unleashing a new kind of aggressive executive power that they are reacting to in the senate. Woodruff and, lisa, how are the republicans dealing with that . And does it have implications for the Supreme Court nominee coming . I didnt get a lot of answers from republicans tonight as to how can they get these nominees to the senate floor without going through some of these committees. They say theyre work it, but the truth si dont know of a way they can do it without democratic votes. So thats to be determined. But i think in the end, its a political calculus on both sides, and the Supreme Court nominee will be a huge factor in this. Republicans are, in a way, daring democrats to try and block the Supreme Court nominee. Democrats seem to be ready to do it. Well see if republicans, as john mccain told me tonight are, willing to change the vote count to only 50 votes for a Supreme Court nominee. They say theyre open to that at this point. Woodruff well, that would be a story for all of us to cover. Lisa desjardins, thank you. Obrien in eastern ukraine, heavy new fighting has erupted, with at least eight People Killed overnight. Ukrainian troops and russian backed rebels dueled with artillery and rockets on the outskirts of donetsk. It appeared to be the worst shelling in many months, and it briefly trapped hundreds of coal miners underground. Ukraines president blamed moscow translated our servicemen are successfully defending positions. The only restriction is when criminals, russian rebels, deploy artillery systems, tanks and multiple missile rocket launchers in residential areas. We have clear evidence of that. Obrien the Ukrainian Military and russianbacked rebels each blame the other for launching the offensive. Woodruff back in this country, the boy scouts of america now says it will accept transgender children who identify as boys. In a Statement Last night, the organization said its existing approach is no longer sufficient, as communities and state laws are interpreting gender identity differently. The Girl Scouts Organization has accepted transgender members for years. Obrien tonight marks the deadline for americans to sign up for Health Insurance under the Affordable Care act. It affects 39 states served by healthcare. Gov. States with their own insurance websites set their own deadlines. President trump and Congressional Republicans have promised to repeal and replace obamacare. Woodruff and on wall street today, subpar earnings from goldman sachs, boeing and others weighed on stocks. The Dow Jones Industrial average lost 107 points to close at 19,864. The nasdaq rose a point, but the s p 500 slipped two. Obrien still to come on the newshour the contenders for President Trumps Supreme Court nominee; universities Warn International students not to leave the country; and, a music job that women rarely hold. Woodruff many questions remain about President Trumps executive order temporarily prohibiting citizens of seven majority muslim countries from entering the u. S. Perhaps chief among these questions does it make us any safer . Both today and yesterday, white House Press Secretary sean spicer fielded queries from reporters. Reporter some of the countries that have problems with terrorism are not on the list. Right, and were reviewing the entire process over this period of time to make sure that we do this right. But i dont think you have to look any further than the families of the boston marathon, in atlanta, in san bernardino, to ask if we can go further. Theres obviously steps that we can and should be taking, and i think the president is going to continue do to what he can to make sure that this country is as safe as possible. Look, i think the president s number one goal is the protection and safety of the United States and its people. If they want to act in a way thats inconsistent with their concerns, then thats up to them to do it as a sovereign nation, but it is our duty and it is his duty to make sure that this country and its people are protected first and foremost. It cant be a ban if youre letting a Million People in. If 325,000 people from another country can come in, that is by nature, not a ban. It is extreme vetting. Woodruff so, is this policy effective . For one perspective, i am joined now by michael leiter. He was the director of the National Counterterrorism center from 2007 to 2011, during both the george w. Bush and obama administrations. Michael leiter, welcome back to the program. Whats your general reaction to what sean spicer is saying is the white house rationale for this . Well, i think as a general matter, it misses the point that much of this vetting is already going on. So the question is why stop it now . What are we going to add . And if the goal is to have a zerodefect system that no one will ever come to the u. S. Who later poses a danger to u. S. Citizens, then theres really only one way to accomplish that, and that is to permanently shut down all immigration. And the fact is we cant do that. We wouldnt do that. We have to make smart judgments based on facts about how we vet people, where we vet people, and where the threat really comes from. So based on all of those things, i really dont see this right now as being an effective counterterrorism tool. Woodruff youre referring to the number of terrorist ensdents that have taken place in this country, a number of them were on the part of people who had been living here for a number of years. Thats right. Since 2001, 82 of fatal tacks in the United States from sunni extremist terrorism violent islamic extremists have been legal permanent residents or citizens. And the others werent from these seven countries. So by shutting down, at least temporarily, immigration from these countries, its a little bit like closing the barn door, but its not even the barn door where the horse came from. Woodruff so, michael, when the white house is asked, why these seven countries . They say these are countries identified by president obama, and this is at a time when you were in office, theyre saying 2011. They were identified at that time as being countries of concern. Whats the difference between what happened under president obama and what theyre doing now . Well, there is some truth there. These seven countries do represent country wheres theres a serious terrorism threat. But this these countries really grew out of paris attacks. And that issue involved people from European Countries who didnt need a visa, immigration visa at all. They were from visawaiver countries. You could just travel to the u. S. Under the obama administration, if people, say, from the united kingdom, traveled to yemen, then they would have to apply for a visa. What this this order does was saying anyone traveling from those critize theres going to be a pause. So i think theres some corallation, but its really using it for a very, very different purpose. And it misses, again, what the greatest threat was, which is people coming from visawaiver countries where the reviews are much less. Woodruff and, again, visa waiver countries normally being countries we think of as friendly, our allies, europe, other parts of the world, where their government is not viewed as a threat. Thats exactly right. There are three ways to get into the United States, a visawaiver country,. The uk, france, they dont have to apply, they dont get interviewed. Visa country like the seven where people are already being vetted, quite extremely, i would say. And then refugees, which really fall into a special category and to get special attention. Woodruff so when they say these are all designed to make the United States safer, to make american citizens safer, the answer is . I think the answer on these countries is i dont see it. And we have to remember the ways in which this alienates the people with whom we have to partner, domestically and internationally. Its the Muslim Community in the u. S. , which helps us identify terrorists and radicalized individuals and stop them, and critically, its the International Partners that we need help from in the middle east and majority muslim nations who i fear will be alienated by some of these steps. Woodruff you mentioned the vetting process that already takes place, that was taking place through the obama administration. I was reading a piece just today or yesterday citing at least 20 different steps that someone has to take if they want to enter the United States from one of these countries considered suspect. How would you go about tightening just how tight is that process . And how would you go about tightening it, making it more stricter . Well, its hard to figure out, quite honestly, judy. And thats in part because it has been constantly improved. It was good in 2001 after 9 11. It wasnt perfect. And after 2011 and the underwear bomber, the Christmas Day bomber, it was tightepped more. But today, every individual applying for a visa, they go through biographical checks from all of the National Security agencies the f. B. I. , d. H. S. , the c. I. A. They have biometric checks, fingerprints. And theyre finally interviewed before they even get that visa, and then they undergo additional screening while theyre traveling. So it is pretty severe. And in the cases of refugees coming out of syria, it is even more severe. And theyve already been screened by the u. N. Before handed over to the u. S. And in those cases, were generally not talking about what would be known in our circles as militaryage males, the ones youre most concerned with becoming terrorists. In the case of syrian refugees, thats less than 2 of the population. Woodruff one other argument ive heard the administration make is that these individuals come from places where they cant its u. S. Cant believe what their government says about whether about their background, that its either a chaotic situation disorganized situation, or a government that the u. S. Would have no reason to trust. Theres no doubt that some cases like syria make it more difficult. But i think what you just repeated was really exaggerating how hard it is. We still have lots of databases. We have lots of information. Wean email addresses. We know phone numbers. And searching those against the wealth of collection that the u. S. Intelligence community has can make connections that are important. Further steps that have been improved over the past several years involve looking at peoples social media profile. Thats really important to understand. We do have to demand that countries from which these people are coming are cooperating with the United States. That should be part of the visa process. So i think thats an important step that we demand from these countries that they provide with us information. But the idea that we simply cant get data about these people i think misunderstands how the Intelligence Community and the vetting system has worked since 9 11. Woodruff michael leiter, thank you very much. Great to be here, judy. Thanks. Obrien aside from the National Security concerns, the president s executive order has ignited a fierce debate on its legality and constitutionality. We get two views, from neal katyal, a former acting solicitor general under president obama; and jonathan turley, a law professor at George Washington university. Jonathan, lets begin with you. Lets talk about the law. 1965, immigration and nationality act. What does it say, and how might it impact this executive order . Well, i think it can can have an impact. Theres no question that the law says that you cannot discriminate on the basis of nationality or place of origin. And that certainly helps the challenges are. But like much nels this debate, much of that law has been distorted. It only takes you so far. First of all, the law doesnt apply to refugees. It applies to immigrants. Its used when you have visa issues. Also, it doesnt cover religious discrimination. Also, in 1990, the act was amended to exclude procedural changes as a form of discrimination. That that reduces the use of the 1965 law, i think, as a serious challenge. And, also tmeans that much of that order that is being challenged doesnt fall under the law. So even if one aspect moeb challenged successfully, the other aspects of the order would remain. Federal courts have a longstanding policy to minimize the degree to which they strike down a piece of legislation or executive authority. Obrien neal, the way the immigration and nationality act is written, it mentioned an individuals place of birth or place of residence. It does not mention religion specifically. The executive order seemed to be narrowly tailored, trying to avoid the use of the word religion. So, in effect dthey write an executive order which would run afoul of this law . Oh, they did. And dont be distracted by what you just heard from my friend jonathan. Let me read the law, no person shall receive any preference or priority or be discriminated against in the issuance of an immigrant visa because of nationality. Now, this is most of what the executive order does, discriminate on the basis of nationality. Forget about the refugee provision. Its about green card holders. Its about anyone applying fair visa, a student, an employee of a company. You know, it applies broadly. Now, of course, it doesnt reach religious discrimination. Thats reached by the constitution, a second problem with the panth so youve got two different things. Youve got it violates the statute and it violates the constitution. And President Trumps advisers are pretending that this is 1952, in which this 1965 law didnt exist. But, unfortunately, it does. This is landmark legislation passed contemporaneously with the Voting Rights act. And it is just blatantly illegal under that law. Obrien all right i feel like i need a gaffe expel a black robe here, gentlemen. Lets talk about the constitution first if we could. First amendment, very important amendment, as we all know, the establishment clause. Jonathan, it seems on the face of it that you could make a pretty good argument that this runs afoul of the establishment clause that basically says the United States does not get in the business of choosing religions. I think the most vulnerable aspect of the order is the one that gives preference to minority religions, and those people that were persecuted under them. That certainly is the weakest spot. But im still skeptical about whether you could make a successful establishment claim. Theres a lot of cases that have to be moved aside to get from here to there if you want to strike down this law. It is true. Theres establishment issues, but theres also plenary power in the hands of a president. Obrien all right, so the administration is trying to be very clear about saying this is not a muslim ban. But lets listen to candidate trump, december a year ago, when he first rolled out this idea. Donald j. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of muslims entering the United States until our countrys representatives can figure out what the hell is going on. applause . Obrien okay. And then last sunday, rudy giuliani, close adviser to President Trump in the campaign and through the transition, said this we focused on instead religion danger. Its not based on religion. Its based on place wheres there are substantial evidence that people are sending terrorists into our country. Obrien okay, counselor, so youre arguing this case. Are those comments admissible . Absolutely. And heres the thing. My last job was the chief litigation sphe for the federal government, and i made took use of all the precedents that jonathan was talking about, about broad power in immigration. Nothing extends as far as what the president has done. This is religious discrimination, and heres what the Supreme Court has said about that. The clearest command of the First Amendment is that one religious denomination cant be frtunately preferred to another. This executive order prefers christians to muslims. Youve got it. The president himself said so contemporaneously when he issued the executive order to the christian broadcast network. This is just unamerican and unconstitutional. Obrien jonathan, thencandidate trump and his adviser, rudy giuliani, more recently dthey undermine their own case . Well, they certainly undermind their case. I mean, the Justice Department attorneys are in fetal positions every time someone like this speaks about the purpose of a law. But the longstanding view of the Justice Department has been what legislators say about a law as to the motivation of the law is not controlling. Ive been in case wheres the Justice Department has maintained that position, that you have to look at the laws as to whether its lawful or constitutional. The court doesnt make assumptions or speculation about the motivations behind the law. If the law has an otherwise bona fide purpose, the courts tend to go with that. I dont see a court, any court saying that what a candidate said on the trail is going to be material in terms of whether this law is struck down. And im surprised that neal even suggests that. Ive been in yaiss those types of arguments have been railed and courts have shot it down. For example, what if i mean, trump clearly said that. But he then gave this law to someone to draft, and they came back with a law that is not a muslim ban. Now, i dont like the law, but i dont think any court is going to look at this law and say its a muslim ban because its not. Theres plenty to object about this law without making it something its not. It does not ban all muslims. Now, i know people dont like to say that because they, sort of like richard iii, you want to think of your enemies as worse than they are. You dont have to think about this law as worse than it is. It is not a muslim ban on a legal basis. Obrien but if it walks like a duck, talks leak a duck isnt this legal parsing that they have come to this executive order . And when you look at the context and the comments, you have to come to the conclusion that at least religion was on their minds in some fashion. Or religion was more than on their minds. I think jonathan is just wrong. This is a First Amendment religion challenge in which the motivations of the law will be looked to and courts do so. And thats particularly underscored here. Because what has the new defense of this law been by the white house . Its oh, were not focused on religion. Were focused on security. Obrien all right, much to discuss here. Just nay word. Going to the Supreme Court . Will this end up in the Supreme Court . No, i think this is indefensible, and i think the Justice Department, after they lose in District Court after District Court, wont breng this even to the cowfort appeals. I certainly wouldnt have if i were in the government. It could go to the Supreme Court, but you have to be careful what you ask for. Were going to get a new nominee to that court and might not be the type of court you want to appeal this case if were with the a. C. L. U. Glou. Obrien neal katyal, jonathan turley, thank you very much. Woodruff we return now to the Supreme Court and President Trumps muchanticipated choice. To be announced tonight. For that, we are joined by Elizabeth Wydra, president of the progressive constitutional accountability center; Michael Carvin, former Deputy Assistant attorney general in the office of Legal Counsel during the reagan administration. Hes now in private practice; and marcia coyle, chief washington correspondent for the national law journal, and a newshour regular. We hope to be joined shortly by Tom Goldstein, founder of scotusblog. Com. And we welcome all of you to the program. Marcia, im going to start with you. We keep hearing its down to two individuals. This is after 21 names that President Trump gave us back during the Campaign Last may. What are we to make of the finalists, if thats what they are . How are they different from the long list we originally saw . Well, i think the original list really did contain very solid conservative judges on it, either on federal Appellate Courts and even on some state Supreme Courts. The two now that were focused on, judge gorsuch, who is in colorado, and judge hard man, who is from pennsylvania, he sits in pittsburgh. Gorsuch sits in denver, i believe. They are theyve risen to the top, i think, especially because they seem closest to Justice Scalias jurps. Judy, if you recall, President Trump said during the campaign that he wanted to appoint someone who was like Justice Scalia, the late Justice Scalia. I think that judge gorsuch really is closest to Justice Scalia in his approach to judging. I think all of the finalists would have considered themselves close to Justice Scalia as originalists and textualists. But judge gorsuch is really probably the most haebt most vocal and most passionate about using originalism, and textualism to interpret the constitution and statutes. Woodruff Michael Carvin, how would you separate these two, if thats who they are, the finalists from that long list that we originally saw . To echo what marcia said, theyd both be worthy successors to scalia. Taci think judge gorsuch probaby digaise little deeper into the law and is more vocal, if you will, about the virtues of originalism woodruff deeper than . Judge hardy man, the other candidate from pittsburgh. Which is no way to suggest judge hardayman is not an excellent lawyer. He is. I think he stood out among the current federal judiciary, because he takes a deepseated approach to why originalism is correct and how you get to the correct answer. Woodruff Elizabeth Wydra, what would you add to looking at these two who appear to be the finalist. I think whichever one is the nominee, were going to be look very closely to see if he is someone who applies the constitution and its guarantees of equality and justice for all, indeed, to all people, not just those who look like him or have the same amount of money in their bank account or pray like him. President trump made a statement that he thought his nominee would represent christians fairly, which, obviously, is a little bit concerning, since justices are not supposed to represent in that way. Especially what weve seen over past few days how important the crowrts as a check against unconstitutional violations of the branches. Woodruff Tom Goldstein is joining us now from los angeles. Tom, welcome. So what do you look for tonight . Weve been talking about what it is that characterize these two apparent finalists, what do you see, and what are you looking for . Well, i think that the president really is going to, get a lot of credit from conservatives. I think probably the big difference is just the cases that theyve heard. Judge gorsuch has heard more cases about religious liberty, whereas judge hardayman has heard more cases about guns. I think were going to see more drama from President Trump than we usually see in rollouts related to the Supreme Court. And then were going to hear a lot of sound and furry that will ultimately amount to nothing because republicans simply have the power between the presidency and the senate to get through essentially anyone. Woodruff so, marcia coyle, is that how you see it, a lot of drama but in the end the president and his allies, republican allies, are pretty much going to get what they want . I think its probably true. Im ot quite sure really what the democrats thinking will be at this point. I know there are some dwheems would like to block any nomination at this point because theyre very angry about the way president obamas nominee, judge Merrick Garland, was treated in the senate. He had the the Senate Republicans refused to hold hearings or a vote on that nomination, so they see it as sort of payback maybe we should block this one. On the other hand, senate sorry, Senate Democratic leader Chuck Schumer has said, were going to look and see if the nominee is within the mainstream. Hes not went mainstream, then we will block or try to block. And i guess it will depend on how he defines mainstream. Main stream of what. I think its going to be interesting. Woodruff Michael Carvin, how does one define main stream when it comes down to individuals like these judges . Chuck schumer defines it as a judge who will impose democratic policies on the country and twist the law to accomplish that. I guarantee you, he wont think anybody on trumps list is within the main stream. I think they will engage in the sort of massive resistance they have already been engaging in, in the trump presidency, and unfortunatelyoure going to seel demagoguery attacking fine people. It doesnt make a lot of sense objectively because, remember, this is replacing scalia. Its not as if this replacement can move the court more to the right than it is. The court right now is quite liberal in terms of gay marriage and affirmative action and other issues. So all youre doing is preserving the status quo of a relatively liberal court. Nonetheless, i think, partially because of the garland issue, the democrats are going to make this a lot of sound and fury. Woodruff the garland issue being Merrick Garland who president obama picked a year ago and the republicans wouldnt hold hearings for him. Do you see the court as pretty much on the liberal end of the spectrum . I think it would have been if Merrick Garland, perhaps, had been conserved as he should have been. Its a conservative court. The Roberts Court is led by conservative justices which is not to say they dont sometimes rule in liberal ways in more progressive ways that conform with the constitutions text and history. I think theres going to be a focus on this nominee no matter what because every justiceolt court is important, and in fact, the integrity of the court as an independent arbiter of what the constitution is, and the pinnacle of our independent judiciary, alcohol make sure that the constitutions structural provisions are respected, so this justice is important. And i think there is a chance that we are going to have a real fight to make sure that this nominee does not share the, frankly, authoritarian views that the president has exhibited. Woodruff michel im sorry, Tom Goldstein. How do you see the whether it is judge gorsuch or hardiman, we dont know for sure, the white house hasnt confirmed that theyre the finalists, but if its one of these, how does the court shift . What do you see . Well, i dont think the court ask does shift very much. I think the courts considerably more conservative than Michael Carvin describes. But hes quite right to say in the main youre probably looking at somebody who is a lot like Justice Scalia. But what does happen is you extend that for a generation. Youre talking about someone who is likely to be on the court for a quarter century or more. So it locks in whatever the ideology of the court is now in a really important way and avoids a shift to the court on the left that Elizabeth Wydra described. The other thing, it changes when youre a judge and you become a justice. You get freed from a lot of the constraints of existing precedent. So nobody ought to say with great confidence what any of these judges will do when theyre a Supreme Court justice. Conservative venezuela gotten a lot better about not putting on somebody who is squishy, who might move a lot. But its still unpredictable. Woodruff i just quickly want to go around the table before we wrap up and ask each of you about the process of the names that have come out. You have two dozen names, and now its dun to two. Marcia, is this different from the way its normally done . I think every president looks to certain individuals and certain groups for input in terms of who may most reflect that president s own ideology, philosophy, and that was no different, i think, in this case. President trump reportedly was assisted by the conservative Federalist Society and the conservative heritage foundation. In terms of the rollout, having were told both judges at the white house right now. That is puzzling, different, and i guess we have to wait and see. Woodruff 45 sctdz, Michael Carvin, is this unusual to do it like this . I think President Trump was much more specific than most president s have been. I agree that normally youre going to give a general sense of who youre going to appoint, but this was a very important issue because of Justice Scalias passing, and President Trump was very clear about the kind of justice he was going to appoint. So i think he probably has a more specific mandate than most of his predecessors in terms of who hes going to name diswhrg your thought on the process. I think one of the unusual parts of this process was trump was very clear about his litmus test. Abortion, religious liberty, and guns. And normally you dont do that because it suggests youre guaranteeing a vote so that was very unusual. Woodruff Tom Goldstein, of five seconds. Its usually less of a circus than this. Woodruff all right, Tom Goldstein joining us from los angeles. Were glad you made it through the traffic. Thanks so much. Woodruff Elizabeth Wydra, marcia coyle, and Michael Carvin, thank you. And we hope you join us tomorrow night, when i sit down with Vice President mike pence at the white house for his First Television interview since taking office. Obrien lets take a different look at the impact of the immigration orders, from the lens of Higher Education. Its the focus of our weekly segment, making the grade. There are nearly one million International Students on u. S. Campuses. The number of students who come from the seven affected countries is much smaller, about 17,000, and most of those are from iran. The president s temporary ban sparked anxiety and protests on a number of campuses around the country. Faculty and students both expressed worries about the wider message. Heres some reaction, first at the City University of new york, or c. U. N. Y. , and then from an iranian student at the university of alabama. I cannot look at the faces of merely half a Million Students of cuny, without seeing the faces and stories of millions around the world. 40 of our cuny students are better than in another country. More than half of us speak a second language at home. At my campus alone, we have students representing over 150 countries. I just got a postdoctoral offer from another u. S. University, and im just worried about my future, let alone living in the u. S. Im worried that theyre going to deport me. Obrien more perspective on these issues now from angel cabrera, the president of the george mason university, the largest Public University in virginia, serving about 34,000 students. Born in madrid, cabrera is the first native of spain to lead an American University. Good to have you you with us, mr. Cabrera. Thank you for having me. Obrien lets talk about your perspective as an immigrant yourself, having seen the University System here from spain, and now on the inside. Im curious how that affects your perspective on this whole issue. First of all, the american universities have a tremendous advantage around the world because theyre the number one place where students from all over the world want to study. I was there myself. I graduated from college from madrid, spain, and my dreesms to come to one of the Great American research universities. And there are hundreds of thousands of students from around the world every year. Obrien the Higher Education system here really does remain a magnet, doesnt it . Absolutely. Not only that gives the American University a great advantage but it gives an advantage, also, to the american economy. I mean, when you do the numbers and look at, for example, out of the recent startups, how many have reached 1 billion or more. About 40 of them have been founded or cofound by foreignborne individuals. Most of them, by the way, come to the u. S. To study. Obrien my understanding is most student dont have green cards. They have student visas. Thats correct. Obrien that means the carveout for green cards we have been talking about the last couple of days does not apply to most of these students. Give us an idea of the Immediate Impact on your campus and campuses in the u. S. In our case, we have 82 students who have what we call an f1 visa, which is a student visa from those countries and we have about five j1 visa holders, who tend to be exchange scholars. It could be a visiting professor, someone getting their ph. D. Here. We are trying to feggure out where all of them are. I think we have accounted for most of them. We have heard, unfortunately, from one of our students from libya who was stuck in istanbul, trying to board a plane to come to us. So she may have to cancel classes this smefort and try to figure out whether maybe she can take some of the class online. Obrien what is your secrecy vaes to students whether theyre here or there . Well what, were telling our employees, our students, our faculty is dont go anywhere right now until its more clear because if you step outside of the United States, you may not be able to come back in. Thats, of course, some of them have Research Projects or they may have family issues that require for them to go outside. Right now, were saying do your best to not leave the country. Obrien the idea, according to the trump administration, is to make things safer for americans. Just this past november, a somali refugee, student at ohio state university, had a stabbing spree. 11 people were injured before he was subsequently killed. Is there a sense among yourself and other College President s that this is a measure that could make things safe or campuses . Well, i dont have the data. I dont have the evidence. I hope that those people who make these decision may have data that really links the presence of those kinds of students to National Security issues. We dont have that kind of evidence. On our campus, our students from those countries actually have never posed a threat of any kind. On the contrary, i think the presence of people from all over the world increases the understanding of our students. When youre in class with people from other countries you get to see the world in a more nuanced way. You start to understand how things are perceived from other angles. So from my perspective, one of the best things that one can do to in fact improsecute understanding and diminish the probability of safety issues is to create understanding, is to engage in scholarly exchange. Obrien its worth putting this, i think, in context intorks the larger economic eco system. The Education System has a direct link to certainly Silicon Valley. Lots of Silicon Valley c. E. O. S came to the United States through this route specifically. Over time what impact would this have, ultimately, potentially ojobs in america . Well, i think when we talk about immigration, most people start thinking immediately about lowskilled labor. The part that is left out, and it shouldnt because its essential to the economy of the United States its the knowledge worker. Its the graduate student. 75 or more of graduate students in engineering and Computer Science in the United States today are immigrants. When you look at startups in technology, some of the most innovative companies, the ones all of our graduates want to work for, 40 of those who achieved 1 billion or more were founded or cofounded by immigrants. If you look at scientific achievement, 40 of the nobel Prize Winners in this country, whether its chemistry, medicine and physiology, or physics, about 40 were born outside of the United States. So our science is tied to immigration. Our innovation is tied to immigration. Obrien angel cabrera, president of george mason university. Thank you for your time. Youre welcome. Thank you for having me. Woodruff now we look at efforts to change the face of classical music, and shake up tradition while keeping true to the sound. Jeffrey brown has the story. Reporter an orchestra performing with singers see anything unusual . At a recent concert by the dallas opera, the focus was on the conductors women conductors. And in the still highly traditional world of classical music, that is unusual. This was the culmination of the Second Annual Hart Institute for women conductors. Six women and four observers, chosen from 156 applicants around the world, taking part in an intensive twoweek rehearsal and conducting workshop, combined with sessions on how to build and maintain a career. I have absolutely seen very talented women who are held back from where they ought to be. Reporter its the brainchild of dallas opera general director keith cerny. I think there are some individuals who are opposed to the idea of women leaders, whether on the podium or running large opera companies. Fortunately, there arent that many of those people, but theres certainly some. But more generally, i think its an issue where, because theres fewer women in those positions, search committees, and general directors and symphony c. E. O. S dont tend to think so much about hiring women for those opportunities. Reporter its just not part of their thinking . Its just not part of the thinking. Reporter according to Industry Data of the nine largest american opera companies, by budget, none has a female music director and principal conductor. And marin alsop in baltimore, who served on the faculty at the dallas workshop, remains the sole woman music director at the nations 24 largest orchestras. In dallas, cerny hired Nicole Paiement as principal guest conductor, and she played a large role at the institute, encouraging when you have an idea, which are always very, very good, say one thing and then move on. Reporter cajoling, teaching. You sort of explain it five times, but i think we get it the first time. Reporter paiement runs her own, Small Opera Company in san francisco, and travels the world performing with orchestras. I know there is that surprise phenomenon every time im guest conducting for the first time, they are surprised when i arrive on the podium. I dont have the physique; im a woman, a small woman. Reporter what do you mean . You sense the audience is surprised . Not the audience but the musicians. When i arrive, i can feel that they are like, oh, okay, thats our conductor . And its a little bit of a surprise. It can be refreshing. Reporter but does that make you have to prove yourself . Not at all because, they see what im doing on the podium is not there to be a leader and to be the boss, but to make music as a collaborative art form. And you know, the art of conducting has changed a great deal. The era of the tyrant on the podium. Reporter right, that stereotype. That stereotype is long gone. Reporter romanian conductor mihaela cesagoje, recalls something she learned from her mentor. Marin alsop is giving a very, very good example, so if a woman goes and conducts with her hand like that, everybody, maybe they might say, oh, thats such a girly thing. But if a man does that, oh, hes so sensitive. So i think its a lot of question of perception, how people are looking, but i try not to focus so much on this, because if im thinking about this every day, then you just dont do anything. Reporter that was what we heard from others here as well, including the youngest participant, 26yearold tianyi lu, who grew up in new zealand, love the music, embrace the work, and focus on how to get better. But, theyre all used to being a outnumbered in this world. Ive been in master classes where im the only girl, and i think reporter and what happens . Well, certain things have happened, but i think for me, its more to do with, sometimes its very easy for everyone to pretend like theyre really confident, whereas i dont think im the sort of person who can pretend as well as others. So i actually need real confidence, and that comes with time in front of the orchestra, time with people who are experienced giving me their suggestions, their support and encouragement, and for me thats the important thing. Reporter time in front of a prestigious ensemble is key to the institute. For a conductor, the orchestra is her instrument. Rehearsals were augmented by oneonone sessions with more seasoned conductiors, including italian conductor carlo montanaro. Is there something that a conductor has to have, you know, that you must have to be good . What makes a great conductor . Charisma. Reporter charisma . Knowledge, technique, being true on the podium, not faking yourself on the podium, dont make a show, believe in the music youre conducting. Reporter do you see differences in women and men conductors . No, zero. Reporter zero. I see a musician, i dont treat them women, men, no. I want to see a musician that knows what hes doing. Reporter but why does the reporter off the podium, there were other very practical lessons on building a resume and networking, whether and how to hire an agent; and developing executive leadership skills, in order to one day move into upper management. We really have to do our homework, we really have to educate ourselves if we are going to be in this field. You will most likely be the musical director of an orchestra. Youre going to have to deal with a board and a board is going to talk to you about numbers. Reporter american Elizabeth Askren has guestconducted in many leading european venues and, like the others here, is hoping one day to be a music director. She saw the institute as a great opportunity for learning with and from other women. Its a safe space for us to treat some of those issues. Some of which are just, you know, common, everyday things, questions that all conductors have to face. And then there are some issues to explore that may pertain to women. The fact that the numbers are rather low in positions of directorship why is that, can we talk about that . Reporter the dallas opera has made a 20year commitment to this institute. I asked general director keith cerny how hell judge success. It would be terrific to think that 20 years from now, this whole issue will have gone away, and men and women will be equally evaluated for positions on the podium. I think that may be a little optimistic, but reporter you do . I do, unfortunately, because, theres been no improvement, its been static for 25 years. I think it is starting to improve, slowly. Reporter from dallas, im Jeffrey Brown for the pbs newshour. You know what i think, more women conductors. Obrien said the mary, stra. I agree. Woodruff and im judy woodruff. Join us right here at 8 00 p. M. Eastern for special live coverage of President Trumps Supreme Court pick. For all of us at the pbs newshour, thank you, and well see you soon. Major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by lincoln financial committed to helping you take charge of your financial future. Bnsf railway. Xq institute. The ford foundation. Working with visionaries on the frontlines of social change worldwide. Carnegie corporation of new york. Supporting innovations in education, democratic engagement, and the advancement of International Peace and security. At carnegie. Org. And with the ongoing support of these institutions and individuals. This program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Captioning sponsored by newshour productions, llc captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org youre wat rose welcome to the program. We begin this evening with mike morell, former acting director and Deputy Director of the c. I. A. Talking about the new administrations National Security staff and National Security issues, including immigration. Do you take some sort of military action against north korea. You know, ive, since the very beginning of this president ial campaign, ive been concerned about the president s temperament. Ive been concerned about his thin skin, im concerned about thinks ego, im concerned how he might feel in relation to kim jongun if hes successful in testing icm. I worry about over reaction. Rose we conclude wit