Transcripts For KQED PBS NewsHour 20151117

Major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by moving our economy for 160 years. Bnsf, the engine that connects us. And the william and flora hewlett foundation, helping people build immeasurably better lives. And with the ongoing support of these institutions this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Woodruff a massive investigation of the terrorist attacks in paris was in full swing across france and belgium today. The death toll stood at 129, with some 350 wounded in fridays coordinated assault, now claimed by the Islamic State group. Hari sreenivasan is in paris, where he begins our coverage. Sreenivasan thanks, judy. It was a day of remembrance and resolve here. The victims in paris were memorialized once again, as the french began a forceful response against the Islamic State. Sreenivasan silence fell across paris at noon today. And across much of europe, as victims of fridays attacks were remembered by millions. Including the french president , at a courtyard at the sorbonne. Sreenivasan a short time later, Francois Hollande went before parliament to declare that france is at war. translated the french people are ardent, valiant, courageous. They dont give up. They stand up when each of their children is put in the ground. Those who wanted to murder them by deliberately striking innocent people are cowards who fired on an unarmed crowd. Sreenivasan across france, authorities conducted a sweeping dragnet of people they suspect of militant ties. And found caches of weapons, including rocket launchers, were throughout france overnight, police and armed police, with the help of the central and regional branches of our Intelligence Services, carried out 168 raids in the homes of people under suspicion. Sreenivasan at the same time, a fuller picture of those suspected in the plot came into focus, including abdelhamid abaaoud, the alleged mastermind. The belgianborn militant is seen here in the Islamic State propaganda magazine, but is now believed to be in syria. In all, at least eight men mounted the friday attacks. At the bataclan theater, at the stade de france and two restaurants. At least one attacker carried a possiblyfake syrian passport and may have entered europe 6through greece, with the flood of refugees. Most of the others are believed to be frenchborn muslims who may have traveled to syria. Seven died in the attack, while the eighth, 26yearold salah abdeslam, is thought to have escaped to brussels. With that in mind, president hollande announced drastically steppedup security measures, including broader Police Powers and border controls. Its the third day of mourning for the city of paris, government buildings, museums even the eiffel tower are closed. People around the city are now thinking about what to do next. closing down the borders wont change anything, you know theres always we always have refugees coming in the country, in any other countries. Sreenivasan we sat down with 49year old emmanuells pohrel outside a cafe as trucks made their morning deliveries. if you think of security all the time you become crazy and paranoid. Sreenivasan pohrel is also concerned about the increasing scrutiny refugees and immigrants will face. i dont think those people who come in are terrorists, theyre just going away from a country where theres war. Sreenivasan this is a tension playing out across the city and perhaps the country, even as young and old visit the sites of friday nights rampage, to pay their respects, to grieve. While we spoke to Brigitte Fraisse outside the cambodian restaurant that was struck friday night, her daughter introduced her to, another woman walking by. That woman said, close the borders, while ms, fraisse said open the borders. In a different neighborhood, we met an anxious 63 year old realtor named thierry preguica. translated i think the western world crumbles little by little. I think were facing a problem we dont control any longer. Sreenivasan pregucia is on the side of increased security at the borders. translated unfortunately, today, we need to strike hard, because we are facing a very determined, blind enemy, who has no logic, or rather, has a barbaric logic. So today, our established rules, they are a bit dated i think. We have always understood this would be a longterm campaign. There will be setbacks and there will be successes. The terrible events in paris were obviously a terrible and sickening setback. Sreenivasan president obama, at the g20 in turkey, acknowledged Islamic State had struck a major blow, but he defended u. S. Strategy against repeated questions about whether hes underestimated the militants. We have the right strategy and well see it through. There will be an intensification of the strategy that we put forward, but the strategy that we are putting forward is the strategy that ultimately is going to work. We havent underestimated their abilities. This is precisely why were in iraq as we speak and why were operating in syria as we speak. And its precisely why we have mobilized 65 countries to go after isil. There has been an acute awareness on the part of my administration from the start that it is possible for an organization like isil that has such a twisted ideology and has shown such extraordinary brutality and complete disregard for innocent lives, that they would have the capabilities to potentially strike in the west. Sreenivasan in a video released today, an iraqi fighter with isil threatened more strikes against the countries in the coalition, and inside the u. S. translated we say to the states that take part in the Crusader Campaign that, by god, you will have a day, god willing, like frances and by god, as we struck france in the center of its home in paris, then we swear that we will strike america at its center in washington. Sreenivasan aware of the risk, u. S. Authorities have increased security at airports and in major cities. But there are republicans in congress and on the campaign trail who say that the u. S. Must do more. I want to fight in their back yards so they dont fight in our back yampletd thats the two choices. The president pushed back against the idea thousands of american troops should be sent to the middle east. We acts if theyre a state and we use routine military tactics that are designed to fight a state attacking another state. Thats not whats going on here. These are killers. Killers with fantasies of glory who are very savvy when it comes to social media and are able to infiltrate the minds of not just iraqis or syrians but disaffected individuals around the world. And when they activate those individuals, those individuals can do a lot of damage. Sreenivasan paris was the latest demonstration of that damage, indicating a possible strategic shift outside the groups selfproclaimed caliphate, including the suspected bombing of a Russian Airliner over egypts Sinai Peninsula that killed more than 200, suicide bombings in beirut suburbs last week that killed more than 40, and attacks in turkey and tunisia that killed nearly 200 people. France is already responding to fridays attacks with intense new air strikes in syria, targeting raqqa, the city the Islamic State uses as its capital, and based on and tonight in paris, after standing darkened for two nights, the eiffel tower is again lit. Now in the red, white and blue of the french tricolour flag, its spotlight shining across a tense and grieving city. Sreenivasan just a few hours north of me in belgium, authorities were on the hunt today for one of the suspects in the paris attacks and more clues, conducting a series of raids. Newshour special correspondent Malcolm Brabant has this report from brussels. Reporter it was late morning when explosions erupted in the brussels neighborhood of molenbeek. Masked and heavily armed police surrounded the suspected hideout of a man wanted in connection with the paris attacks. Reporter they were in action, i saw the police rushing in, they put the barriers in place, i was wondering what was going on, then they pushed everyone away, they asked us not to go outside. Reporter commandos eventually entered the besieged house through the roof, but came up empty. Theyd been looking for saleh abdeslam, a 26yearold frenchman living in the belgian capital. Hes been identified as the driver of a rental car that dropped attackers off at the bataclan concert hall in paris, friday night. Salehs brother, brahim, blew himself up outside one of the paris restaurants that came under assault. A Third Brother was one of five people arrested over the weekend in belgium, but released. Mohammad abdeslam says his family is at a loss. translated i cannot tell you why, i cannot tell you how they did what they did. We are an open minded family, we never had any problem with justice, and you also must understand that because of the tragedy, my parents are in shock, and they dont quite realize what has happened. Reporter at least one neighbor also expressed shock, saying she had no problems with this kid. translated what do i think of it . Im sure he has nothing to do with this because ive known this kid for years. He used to play here with the youth. Hes a calm boy, he didnt even smoke cigarettes. He was cool with everybody. We had no problems with this kid. He would always say hello, always polite, well brought up, i cant believe it. Reporter theres frustration in brussels tonight that saleh abselsalam is still on the loose. The anguish is compounded by the fact that Police Stopped him on the way from paris to belgium on friday night, didnt realize his significance and let him go. This city is regarded as the jihadi capital of europe, and so there is a network that could be protecting him here. More raids are anticipated. Two other belgian men have been arrested and charged with being part of a terror group. All are from molenbeek, a poor district thats home to many muslim immigrants, and also, home to several alleged terror plots in recent years. Bilal benyaich, a belgian radicalism expert, says the suburb has a dark extremist underbelly. We are talking about several hundreds of people, most of them were activated or a lot of them were activated during the syria crisis a nd are fighting now or have fought in syria. But the problem nowadays is that these radicals and that these violent extremists went rather underground. Reporter in the belgian parliament, center right opposition m. P. Georges dallemagne blames the presence of radicalism in brussels on hateful preaching by saudi imams. Since decades, there have been an active group of people coming from saudi arabia who are caliphist and who have had quite a huge impact on some of the muslims, members of Muslim Community here in brussels who have developed radical opinion and sometimes who have supported terror and violence. Reporter what do you think belgium needs to do now . I think first, we have to be very drastic on people coming back from syria. I think those people need to, not to circulate freely in europe. Reporter belgiums, and molenbeeks, link to the attacks also extends to the man now being called the mastermind of the plot. Abdelhamid abaaoud, a 27year old belgian national, is believed to be in syria. Hes also been tied to an earlier train attack in france that several americans helped thwart. Now, a French Police union is calling for molenbeek to come under e. U. Security control. They say the belgian government has ceded the area to the Islamic State control. Woodruff joining us to discuss the attacks and aftermath and reaction is malcom brabant. Hari sreenivasan is with us in paris and chief Foreign Affairs covenant Margaret Warner joins us here in washington. There is a state of war in france. Youre on the streets, memorials are behind you. What is the sense of the mood there . Is it resolve . Is it fright . It is a bit of both. There is a serious sense of grief but there is a tremendous undercurrent of anger you can hear in people here. Theyre a little confused about what to do. You cant take out the heart of france which has the nature to take people in, the refugees in and at the same time you feel some part of that heart was cut out with this horrible attack, so people are trying to figure out how they can strike that balance between securing their borders and being the french that they are proud to be. Woodruff and, malcolm, we hear you describing the views of the people there in brussels, talking to them about how they feel. Is there a sense the french are moving into a new chapter when it comes to dealing with the Islamic State . Well, there is certainly a sense of fear in brussels. That was quite apparent on the train i took today from paris to brussels. As soon as we got on the trainers Belgian Police were coming down the aisles, checking for weapons, checking to see when was on the train. Tonight here you dont get any sense of it. Just down the street here, you feel a terrible thing is going to happen and people are territory there will be this apocalyptic breakout and dont know precisely how to react to it. Woodruff you have been spending the day working the sources in washington, margaret, and its interesting to hear the president says he was acutely aware of the i. S. I. L threat and, yet, the administration is not clear on his handling. He said the u. S. Had strategic warning Something Big was coming and intelligence officials said in fact he had picked up chart particularly concerning europe, that it was going to be a big operation and particularly worried about france and they had warned france as late as friday morning, though, no specificity on targets. That said, they acknowledge now that the attack was much bigger and more sophisticated than they thought i. S. I. S. Had the capability of doing, brennan alluded to this, and especially in the cyber sophistication, they had a way to have communicating impervious to surveillance. One official told me theyve also perfected the use of these downloadable apps. Some names other people mentioned to me like kick and sure spot in which people communicate one to one. Its completely encrypted and no backdoor. Its scary when you think brennan said they dont consider this juanoff event and other attacks are planned and in the pipeline. Woodruff the president made it clear he doesnt think a change of strategy is needed. Is that a unified view inside the administration . The fact is it is the view of the administration. I certainly pick up from some officials they would like a more robust approach, but as they described it to me, president obama genuinely believes mass force doesnt work in a case like this unless you keep troops there forever, as in iraq and afghanistan. Onhes going to do more weapons drops and more bombing raids, but it is not going to be qualitatively different. One former defense official said to me, basically, they have this philosophy, theyre clinging to the philosophy even though paris proved its probably not sufficient. Ifill hari and malcolm, much discussion about the role of the refugee, the migrant crisis in europe and the degree to which any of the perpetrators could have come into paris disguised and succeeded. Malcolm, you have been covering this for some months now. I want to hear what you have to say, but hari first. Sreenivasan i think one of the key tensions in the streets of paris, i even heard it in the story malcolm filed, is how do we protect our borders when there are 26 countries in this agreement thats been running for years. Free travel through europe is one of the hall m an hallmarks a key vulnerable. So when theyre coming from grease, macedonia and through germany, they have the access and ability to go to any of these countries. Woodruff malcolm . I think part of the problem lies in greece because the greeks just want to get them through the country and arent checking them properly and they dont have the facilities to check everybody. There are perhaps 10,000 people coming through greece every day and these people are literally just swarming through europe and many are getting travel documents and their movement is facilitated by countries which want to get them through. But the response i think is going to be youre going to see a lot of widening opposition movements demanding this agreement is at an end. More and more people are going to want border controls because they want to know whos coming into their countries. One of the problems the french have thought and they havent been able to monitor all these people is there are 5,000 potential jihadis in france, and the Intelligence Services have a real problem trying to monitor these people and they have to prioritize them. And then there are thousands of people coming through europe. You just cant monitor all of them. The Security Services are kind of overwhelmed if that respect. Woodruff one last question, do you sense any pulling back in the willingness of europeans . I know you are on the ground pulling back on the willingness to keep on with a military campaign against i. S. I. S. In syria . Hari . Sreenivasan one of the things we got, almost a universal sentiment from different people we spoke, with what about the airstrikes in raqqah yesterday, do you think thats appropriate . People said, i want a targeted response from my government as efficient as possible and if thats where i. S. I. S. Is and the root of the problem, then thats where it needs to be stopped. Quite a few feel differently and its a small sampling, but there is definitely a feeling something needs to be done and the government needs to take swift action. Elections are coming up in december and as malcolm points out there may be a take toward a more conservative france if they dont get results in the next few weeks. Woodruff malcolm . I havent spoken to many in brussels, but oneperson who understands this area deeply, he thinks it will be a huge mistake for the west to put boots on the ground in syria because he thinks that will be playing into i. S. I. S. s hands and giving them the response they want and will led to a much wider inferno. Ifill malcom brabant, Hari Sreenivasan and Margaret Warner, thank you very much. Woodruff the attacks in paris have also prompted political blowback here at home. A number of governors, almost all of them republican, say their states will not accept refugees from syria. And several republicans in Congress Said today they want to block plans to take in an additional 10,000 syrians into the u. S. Over the next 12 months. The white house said its going ahead with the plan. Well focus on the political fallout from paris, after the news summary. Ifill the state department suggested today that, even in the aftermath of the paris attacks, the civil war in syria can still be ended. Diplomats at a weekend meeting in vienna announced that syrian president Bashar Alassad and the opposition will start new talks on january first. And leaders at the g20 meeting agreed today to support the new effort. In washington, states mark toner said fridays attacks make it all the more critical to act. You know, weve got specific steps for the first time to advance a cease fire and to put forward a political process. So, you know, there was already urgency here, a sense of urgency. Thats been redoubled. Or thats been obviously under scored by events in paris. Ifill the vienna agreement focuses on moving toward an interim unity government and new elections. But the future role of syrian president Bashar Alassad remains undecided. Woodruff activists in minneapolis are demanding that Police Publicly identity the officer who shot a black suspect early sunday. Family members maintain that 24 yearold jamar clark was shot while handcuffed. Hes now on life support. The shooting sparked protests, but Police Officials maintained clark was not handcuffed at the time. They also said he interfered with paramedics treating someone he had assaulted. Ifill the Justice Department today announced a record 95 million settlement with one of the nations largest forprofit college companies. Education Management Corporation stands accused of highpressure recruiting to sign up students and collect their federal student aid. Education secretary arne duncan along with attorney general Loretta Lynch said the announcement follows investigations by 39 states. The settlement should be a very clear warning to other Career Colleges out there. We will not stand by when you profit illegally off of students and taxpayers. The federal government will continue to work tirelessly with state attorneys general to ensure that all colleges follow the law. Ifill the company enrolls 100,000 students and receives 90 of its revenue from federal student aid. Woodruff and the week on wall street got off to a big start, boosted by a gain in oil prices and, in turn, energy stocks. The Dow Jones Industrial average rose more than 237 points to close at 17,483. The nasdaq climbed 56 points. And the s p 500 added 30. Ifill politics, and political campaigns, are in the end about leadership. And from the campaign trail, to the president ial podium, to the halls of congress, leaders weighed in on the fallout from fridays paris attacks. Over the weekend, the paris attacks quickly turned into a political rorschach test. Among many republicans, the debate centered on the wisdom of allowing Syrian Refugees to receive u. S. Asylum. We cant roll the dice with the safety of americans and bring in people for whom there is an unacceptable risk that they could be jihadists coming here to kill americans. We just saw in paris what happens when a country allows isis terrorists to come in as refugees and the result can be a horrific loss of life. Bringing people into this country from that area of the world i think is a huge mistake. Because why wouldnt they infiltrate them with people who are ideologically opposed to us . It would be foolish for them not to do that. But to bring them here under these circumstances is a suspension of intellect. We have a responsibility to help with refugees after proper screening. And i think our focus ought to be on the christians who have no place in syria anymore. Theyre being beheaded, theyre being executed by both sides. And i think we have a responsibility to help. The problem is we cant background check them. You cant pick up the phone and call syria. And thats one of the reasons why i said we wont be able to take more refugees. Ifill at least a dozen republican governors agreed, declaring their borders effectively closed to refugees. President obama, speaking in turkey at the g20 summit of nations, pushed back. When i hear political leaders suggesting that there would be a religious test for which a person whos fleeing from a war torn country is admitted, when some of those folks themselves come from families who benefited from protection when they were fleeing political persecution thats shameful. Interviewer for democrats, reaction to the crisis focused on what action the u. S. Should be willing to take to bring down isis. We have to look at isis as the leading threat of an International Terror network. It cannot be contained, it must be defeated. But this cannot be an american fight, although American Leadership is essential. I would disagree with with secretary clinton, respectfully, on this score. This actually is americas fight. It cannot solely be americas fight. I would argue that the disastrous invasion of iraq, something that i strongly opposed, has unraveled the region completely. And led to the rise of al qaeda. And to. Isis. Ifill and on capitol hill, republicans in both chambers called for the president to halt the flow of syrian migrants into the u. S. For more on what has been said and hasnt, we turn to politics monday with tamera keith reporting from des moines and amy walter with the Cook Political Report with me here. Amy, are you surprised this turned to politics over this debate with paris . No. This has been sort of the reality of the political campaign. This is a very serious issue, a very serious crisis. The fact is were in the middle of a president ial campaign. This, of course, should be part of the 2016 campaign. Whats surprising, i guess, is how quickly this has been divided along partisan lines, i special on the issue of accepting Syrian Refugees. Democrats almost universally on the side of the president saying we should still accept syrian immigrants after a lengthy process vetting those folks who want to come into this country, and republicans pretty much universally saying we should not accept them at all. Ifill tamara, its kind of an intellectual debate because can these states really block refugees . Its not clear they can but their certainly out there making a statement. I think its much easier to make a statement about refugees and saying, hey, lets put a stop to this, than going out and offering a solution on thousand to deal with the crisis with i. S. I. S. And syria. That is a messy, sticky situation, which is much more complicated and nuanced than simply saying, i dont want refugees in my state. Ifill its quite a test of Foreign Policy, these unexpected crises, no matter what they are. In this case, for instance, we saw dr. Ben carson on Fox News Sunday being asked repeatedly, what would he do, who would he call, how would he form a coalition, he didnt seem to have an answer. He struggled on that question and how to enforce a no fly zone in case we do down a russian plearntion what does that mean for American Foreign policy visavis our relationship with russia, we saw he struggled during the debate as well. I dont think this will change the overall contours in the political race now on the republican side. What i think it does is put another piece into the vetting process for voters that, while theyre not making a decision today about who theyre going to vote for, eventually, theyll get to that place. Once we hit early december, january, people will get serious about not just who they like but who they will vote for and the idea of who is going to look like a commanderinchief will be an important piece in. This it always was but i think paris made that more important. Ifill tamara, if you are a jeb bush, Hillary Clinton or donald trump, how do you think they are treating this in a way that would help them . Hillary clinton is certainly talking about it. However, shes not making it a complete focus of her campaign. I saw her speak yesterday in iowa. She spent the first two or thee minutes of her remarks talking about the terrorist attacks in paris and the need to build International Coalitions to fight i. S. I. S. , and then she quickly turned and started talking about the economy, because i think democrats and actually some republicans still feel that when it comes down to it, people are willing to vote based on the economy more than they will vote based on these international affairs. Thats been a big division between democrats and republicans from the beginning even before these attacks in paris that republican primary voters much more interested on the issues like terrorism, security, democratic voters more interested in the economy. So i think this had to underscore that the republican primary electorate interests, pretty different from democratic interests. So is that the sweet spot were seeing with the republican governors calling to keep refugees out, protecting people at home and speaking to the Foreign Policy component . I think theyre speaking to the base, voters, republican primary voters. This is a concern theyve held a long time before the paris attacks whats going to happen if we bring in refugees from syria. This has not been a good idea to the electorate. This has been opposed to immigration, illegal immigration, and you have Republican Voters wanting to see illegal immigration scaled back and what to do with the gitmo detainees, not bringing those prisoners into the United States. Ifill president obama, while traveling in turkey, he took many occasions to defend his policy going after i. S. I. S. And he grew more exasperated with each question but he also took the opportunity to say, listen, what these folks who dont know what theyre talking about are doing is what he was essentially saying need to step back. We are taking this more seriously than that. Did he make his case . Well, he was certainly taking a swipe at at least ted cruz without saying his name and the people who talk about things like, well, we know christians would come here and we would be okay with maybe christians, but ifill that would be jeb bush, right . Jeb bush made that point. So was the white house still exasperated . Not only in an Election Year with these outside questions but also legitimate questions about whether their strategy is working . Well, what the president seems to be saying is you guys are criticizing me but when you say what we should do were actually doing that. There have been huge numbers of airstrikes and there are advisors on the ground and many of these things that are being prescribed by his opponents are things hes doing, but maybe its more a matter of rhetoric. The way he talks about this is in a way trying to still build bridges, and i think a lot of people are calling on him to just come out and be stronger about it. Ifill its the word of strength, aim. The democrats are talking strategy but you also hear people like donald trump saying, bomb the oil trucks. You hear john mccain not running for president but Lindsey Graham who is, talking about being stronger, boots on the ground, something ben carson is also talking about. Is that a vulnerability . For the republicans, yeah. And the democrats. The democrats made this point as well is its not just the president getting criticized for this policy, its going to be Hillary Clinton and democrats who have to defend the Current Administration policy, Hillary Clinton more so because she was part of the administration as a secretary of state and you saw on saturday night, nobody did a particularly good job defending the president. I didnt see that, or his strategy on i. S. I. S. Then you looking to the republicans who are pretty well unified, we need to be stronger, send a stronger message, no Syrian Refugees, and yet theyre kind of divided on, well, how intensively do we get involved . Rubio is suggesting, yes, second send military there, but not as strongly as somebody like donald trump who wants to do it immediately. So i think those are where the fault lines will open up for republicans is how quickly do you invest . The public clearly will be wary about more military involvement. Ifill final thought aim mentioned in passing was the democratic president ial debate saturday. I do wonder whether, in the end, anything changed in the atmosphere after that. Obviously, both omalley and sanders tried to take more direct aim at Hillary Clinton. I think there is a little bit more negativity, especially from Maryland Governor martin omalley. Hes definitely more willing to go on the attack now after that debate than he had been before, and i think Bernie Sanders also is more directly addressing Hillary Clinton, and Hillary Clinton herself is going after them a little bit more. So, you know, the gloves maybe cough ever so slightly, but its still pretty tame compared to the republican side of the fight. Reporter tamara keith in des moines, iowa, for us tonight, and n. P. R. , and Cook Political Report. Thank you both as always. Thank you. Woodruff we focus now on the changing nature of the threat from the Islamic State group and how to counter it. For that, we turn to four people with deep expertise Juliette Kayyem was an assistant secretary at the department of Homeland Security during the obama administration. She now has her own Security Consulting firm. William mccants is director of the project on u. S. Relations with the islamic world at the brookings institution. His most recent book is the isis apocalypse the history, strategy, and doomsday vision of the Islamic State. Richard barrett is a former director of global Counter Terrorism operations for the british government. Hes a founder of the United Nations Counterterrorism Task force. And Hassan Hassan is a middle east analyst at Chatham House in london, he coauthored the book isis inside the army of terror. And we welcome you all to the program. Will mccants, starting in washington with you. What new to we know about the Islamic State attacks . They seem to have shifted and taken on a strategy of global jihad. Theyve always had the rhetoric of gobbl global jihaddism. Always talked about hitting United States, france, others, but for most to have the history focused on state building. They have been it from successful at it. But with taking down the Russian Airliner, the attack in beirut and now paris, we believe its attention has shifted abroad. Ifill richard barrett, if their attention shifted abroad, how did this happen . I think the european and other western intelligence agencies have been looking for this to happen for some time. They havent been oblivious to the threat. We understand about seven previous plots were thwarted in france and the United Kingdom and in bul belgium, it wasnt so long ago this mastermind narrowly escaped a police raid in the house where he was living with his accomplices there. So its not come out of the blue. So many people are concerned in the Security Services, its very difficult for them to focus resources. Hindsight is great. Foresight is very, very difficult because there are so many people who could be one of the guys whoo attacked in paris last friday. Woodruff Juliette Kayyem, how much has the United States and the rest of n. A. T. O. Underestimated i. S. I. S. . I dont think theyve entirely underestimated it. I think it is just a difficult threat to confront. There is the geographic aspect of i. S. I. S. That they cover a lot of land in the middle east and there are terrorist incidents, whether the lone wolf, the individual getting radicalized or the much more sophisticated attacks like what we saw in paris. And so there are just different pieces to minimizing and degrading the threat of i. S. I. S. And none of them is going to work perfectly, and all they need to do is succeed once. People have been waiting for this. I know that sounds sort of harsh and not sympathetic, but this is not a shock. They have been saying they want to do this. I think the shock is none of the pieces were picked up beforehand seemingly by any intelligence agencies. Ifill Hassan Hassan, what is the appeal . We know there are lone wolves and weve seen that acted out, but this was a lot of people and were now hearing there is a 24hour help desk with i. S. I. S. What is changes and how is it evolving . Well, in terms of appeal, yiechesz aa peels because of because it has the caliphatebuilding enterprise that is actually functioning at least for people who are potential sympathizers to the group. But i. S. I. S. Has always had a twin strategy that actually feeds into each other, the two facets of the strategy. The first is the one i mentioned, the caliphate building enterprise that feeds into its global ideological appeal and makes people outside look at the group as something different, something that might have been, you know, that they have been thinking about for a while, the appeal to have the caliphate, the the appeal of the caliphate, the appeal of the powerful muslim state opposed to the west, germany and the middle east. At the same time, i. S. I. S. Now looks like it has started to focus on itS Global Network, but i think the fact is what weve seen recently is with the russn airliner and the attacks in paris is only a sign that i. S. I. S. S Global Network developed. Its now more capable, more mature in its ability to strike abroad, and i think thats a sign of thatll tha of of th. I remember last year i sad with someone in i sat with someone in turkey who works with i. S. I. S. As a security official, who sets up sleeper cells and spies and so on, and he told me something we learned from the iraq war is instead of waiting for other people to spy on us, to infiltrate us and attack us or bring war against us, we are doing that now, we are establishing eyes and ears in neighboring countries and also in western countries and so on. Woodruff given that, will mccants, does this call for the west or the United States to change its approach . I dont think so. The Islamic State has seen 25 of its territory wither under firepower from the United States and its allies. Its had tens of thousands of its soldiers who have died and i would argue this strategy they are pursuing of building cells abroad is the consequence of the success against them. I think where the merns and others where americans and others have failed is bringing the syrian war to a close. The i. S. I. S. Strategy is right but the syrian strategy is not and thats fueling ultimately this conflict. Ifill richard barrett, one of the questions right after this happened is whether this was al quaida or i. S. I. S. I dont know if its a different without a distinction or i. S. I. S. Now eclipsed al quaida as the biggest global threat . I think its eclipsed al quaida as the biggest global threat and number of supporters, yes. I dont see why some young guy who becomes radicalized would choose al quaida over the Islamic State because Islamic State is where the action is. Its i. S. I. S. , its building the caliphate, its i. S. I. S. Thats calling on people to do stuff, its i. S. I. S. Which is there, present, in the news over time and so on and so forth. So i think the attraction if you want to join something new and want a sense of adventure and belonging, its i. S. I. S. You will choose rather than al quaida, and i think al quaida is rather difficult to get ahold of now, particularly in afghanistan and pakistan, but also somalia, its ratherrer nationalist. Yemen is a war zone as well so its not so easy. I. S. I. S. Is still relatively easy and attractive to join. Woodruff what about the question of whether the west should change its approach . President obama said today remember i. S. I. S. Is not a state. He said traditional military tactics wont work. That doesnt address who i. S. I. S. Is. How do you see that . We have to change our tactics and im not quite sure what people mean. Every tactic is presently being used and they would be amplified, obviously. The europeans will step up to a much greater extent. This comes down to are they willing to commit ground troops, ours and others into the fight in i. S. I. S. And we just have to speak in english. We have to say, this is the question. I just want to remind people, we should do that. We have half a million troops in afghanistan and iraq over the course of 14 years. Ifill Juliette Kayyem, were losing your audio. Well come back to you in a moment and want to follow up. But Hassan Hassan, we want to ask you about the role that we expect International Organizations like n. A. T. O. To play or as we heard people today saying this is a problem for muslim nations to solve or at least take lead on . I think this is a really kind of tricky thing for fighting i. S. I. S. On the one hand, the western countries, especially the United States, are indispensable in the fight against i. S. I. S. No other country can in the whole world can mobilize their resources that the United States can. Its capable of getting countries behind it and fighting this war. Now, the problem is, when you do that, you risk playing ifill go ahead. You risk playing into the hands of i. S. I. S. , that this is a global war against i. S. I. S. , and that appeals to a lot of people who feel, when a country or a group is under attack from the west, that means that it has something it got something right. Now, the question today is whether you step up the Current Campaign against i. S. I. S. , and i think obama is partly right that the Current Campaign is effective, as will mccants just mentioned, is effective in a measured way, in the sense that its containing i. S. I. S. Militarily in the sense its preventing it from going to baghdad, to countries that are to neighboring countries. Sbut that wont defeat i. S. I. S. The other option that needs to be on the table is not to drop more bombs and strike more against i. S. I. S. Inside raqqah, but to really talk very handed, if you like, political process to really resolve the convict in syria and iraq rather than allow the conflict to fester and grow. Woodruff let me ask will mccants to respond to that and if you will comment on how vulnerable you think the u. S. Is. I think the Current Campaign is working, but the challenge is that there are many more places in the middle east and north africa for i. S. I. S. To. Go because to have the instability, security vacuums are opening up and i. S. I. S. Is continuing to seek state building in those countries. Woodruff you dont mean to attack. You mean to go gather recruits . To gather recruits but also build states in libya, yemen and somalia. So even if we deal with the i. S. I. S. Problem in syria and iraq, its still metastasizing and growing. Ifill let me goal foul low up with Juliette Kayyem. You worked with the department of Homeland Security so you have a unique point of view about how vulnerable americans should be feeling in all of this. America is built vulnerable. We have to think about not reducing risk to zero but how do you reduce risk and then fortify targets that might be attractive to terrorists. But given our flow of the country, the people, goods, ideas, the kind of commercial activity we have, well never get it to zero, thats why we have different pieces of the Homeland Security network which also includes the private sector and individuals engaging. But the idea of the question of are we safe, of course not. Weve been a Vulnerable Society to make us perfectly safe and have bad checks on subways. Were balancing the different risks at various stages. Woodruff appreciate it. Apologies about the microphone difficulty. But we were able to understand what you were saying. Thank you. Thank you richard barrett, Hassan Hassan and, here in washington, will mccants. We appreciate it. Woodruff before we go tonight, we return once more to our Hari Sreenivasan in paris. Sreenivasan the outpouring of support and sympathy continues to flow for the victims of the attacks. Tonight, we show you some of the images of the impromptu and organized memorials and tributes made over the past few days to the people of france, spanning the globe. We begin here, in paris. church bells ringing ifill on the newshour online for 12 years, photographer Latoya Ruby Frazier has been capturing the changes in her hometown of braddock, pennsylvania, a steel town that has felt the effects of the postindustrial era. In her latest photos, she tells the story of this rust belt town from above, through a series of aerial shots that show braddocks decline and the ones who are left behind. You can see that photo essay on our home page pbs. Org Newshour Woodruff tune in later tonight, on charlie rose french philosopher and writer Bernard Henri levy headlines a Panel Discussion on isis, paris, and the response to fridays attacks. Woodruff and thats the newshour for tonight. Im Judy Woodruff ifill and im gwen ifill. Join us online and again here tomorrow evening. For all of us at the pbs newshour, thank you and good night. Major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by and by the alfred p. Sloan foundation. Supporting science, technology, and improved Economic Performance and Financial Literacy in the 21st century. And with the ongoing support of these institutions this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Captioning sponsored by newshour productions, llc captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org announcer this is nightly Business Report, with Tyler Mathisen and sue herera. Surprise rally. Why stocks moved sharply higher on the first day of trading since the paris attacks. Even as the manhunt for suspects continues in europe. Going dark. Did videogame consoles and cell phone apps help the paris terror plot go undetected . And the money trail. How isis gets its revenue and funds its operations. All that and more tonight on nightly Business Report for monday, november 16th. Good evening, everyone. And welcome. Few expected a day quite like today. On wall street stocks rose sharply, and they did around the world. Lifted in part by a rise in oil shares and defense stocks here in the u. S. The gains were, however, broad and