That somehow the big cities have all the answers, but in some cases, some smalltown approaches might be the things that you actually solve some of the challenges that were facing in our large metros. [people cheering] [margaret] burgum earned a spot in the first gop president ial debate, where he stood by his commitment to support his partys nominee. As he looks to expand his national profile, what does governor doug burgum say now . [announcer] firing line with Margaret Hoover is made possible in part by robert granieri, vanessa and henry cornell, the fairweather foundation, the tepper foundation, the asness family foundation, the mckenna family foundation, charles r. Schwab, and by the rosalind p. Walter foundation, and damon button. Corporate funding is provided by stephens inc. Governor doug burgum, welcome to firing line. Margaret, great to be with you, excited to be with you, honored to be with you. You, governor, have an extensive record of success in the private sector, and you have been elected to a second term as the governor of north dakota. Your family has deep roots in north dakota dating back to the 1800s. Your greatgrandmother was the first woman to hold Elective Office in the dakota territory. How has this legacy influenced you . Well, one of the things that i find amazing about my greatgrandmother and her coming to north dakota after the civil war with her husband, who was a doctor fighting for the north, she kept a diary. Some of the earliest history of north dakota was her writing down and understanding that it was moving from fortress to farm. And the actual state Historic Society in north dakota, its foundational elements came from the fact that prestatehood, for over 20 years, she and other women in bismarck had been understanding the rapid change that was occurring, and they wanted to save that piece of transition in history. She was a contemporary of susan b. Anthony, she was trying to get the state of north dakota, wouldve been amazing, admitted to the union in 1889 with women having the right to vote the time it entered the union. She was not successful in that event. So she was a change agent. She was elected to office when she couldnt even vote for herself, and she was the first superintendent of Public Schools. So its an inspiration for me when i read her diaries. Its an incredible history, but it also, i think, is inspiring to not just myself, we cant choose our relatives, but yeah. I think a lot of people have been inspired by the pioneer women in north dakota. She certainly is one of em that helped shape our state from the very beginning. [announcer] live at fiserv forum in milwaukee. We just had the first republican debate. You were able to eke out about eight minutes of speaking time as you introduced yourself to the american people. Were you satisfied that you were able to distinguish yourself amongst the other candidates othe stage . Well, of course im not satisfied. I woulda liked to have the whole two hours to myself to introduce myself, [chuckles] i mean, cause we would have plenty to talk about, particularly if we were gonna talk about the things that matter to this country, like our economy, you know, highest Interest Rates in 22 years, inflation out of control, our debt downgraded, our National Debt at record levels. And then weve also, were in an actual kinetic war or proxy war with russia, were in a cold war with china, were in a cyber war every day with both of them. And we seem to have an attention issue to not focus on the things that matter the most. And one thing i know as a ceo and one thing i know as a governor is if you dont have the top leader focused on the things that matter the most, a lot of things can go off the rails in a hurry. And so i would love to have spent more time in that debate talking about substantive issues that are really facing this country. Well, the second debate is coming up. Its scheduled for later this month. If you hit the polling threshold to participate, whatd you learn from the first debate in order to do anything differently second goaround . Well, weve received a lot of positive feedback from people about actually exhibiting characteristics that people think are, you know, in leadership, which is when youre trying to pick a superintendent for your school, when youre trying to pick a new pastor for the parish, when youre trying to pick a ceo, you know, for a boardroom, the Selection Process doesnt include whos got the snappiest retort and who can call each other names and who can make up stuff on the fly, thats not the criteria. I think americans actually understand what leadership looks like. Character, integrity, honesty, actually, you know, sharing facts, staying focused on the issues. So theres some things we wont change at all, but certainly next goaround, were gonna be more assertive in interjecting ourselves in the conversations than we were last time, because this whole idea of, oh, ive been invoked, and then it ping pongs back and forth, and then another 30 minute segments gone by. You know, its not really helpful. I mean, im sure its Great Entertainment for the public because controversy sells, divisiveness is a gigantic, profitable business in our country. And at some point, we probably have to say, is this the right way for us to select leaders to actually lead us through these difficult times . So what should be different . Well, i think when youve got a field this small, you know, have theuestions and the debate rules actually talk about the policy as opposed to, again, being, you know, cable infotainment where, you know, sort of anything goes. Weve talked to people that are supporting us that said, hey, when all thastarted happening and the name calling, i just turned off the tv cause i am so sick that this is what america, this is how were deciding a president . So theres a group out there, lets call em the exhausted majority, in the middle that is not enthralled by this process. And all you have to do is look at the ratings. You can say, hey, look at the ratings, were so high, but thats only a tiny fraction of the people in this country. Most people in this country arent paying attention, dont want to pay attention, cause thats not helpful to them. Are the exhausted majority part of the gop primary electorate . Well, some of them are and some of them arent. I think one of the things that were doing is trying to make sure that when were talking to people that were talking to everybody and they know that as we did in north dakota, when elected, whether people voted for us or not, we serve them once were in that office. The job is to serve everyone. Its not to,ou know, weaponize things and attack the other party. Its actually in service, to service to this country. It feels like the primary process is less focused on the policies and the ideas than traditionally the conservative movement and the Republican Party has been. And it seems to me that that change in departure has really happened in the last eight years. And yet trump continues to lead the field. How do you understand that . Well, ill leave the punditry to the pundits, but i do know for my own state, which is a lot of the people that supported President Trump supported us during our elections in 16 and 20. And i think that part of their voice was, hey, we were forgotten. You know, someone needs to, you know, remember that were here, and this is the hardworking men and women in america. And we know that most of the, you know, Rural Counties in america end up red no matter, you know, how the election turns out. And thats a population were very familiar with. So i understand how they feel, and i want them to know that i see them, i hear them, i feel them, but i also know that weve got policies and approaches that can deliver better results for them. You are the only candidate who is running for president from an overwhelmingly rural state. There is a huge and growing division between urban and Rural Counties in this country, both culturally and economically. How do you help Rural America rebound . Well, i think weve got a good blueprint of whats going on in north dakota. Mean, were on track to have the highest gdp of any state in the nation. Weve got the highest gdp of any republicanled state in the nation. And were doing that with a focus on innovation versus regulation. So much of what comes out of washington, dc today, you got a bureaucrat in washington, dc that writes 800 pages in Something Like the waters of the usa, and then they try to dump it on a state like north dakota, and they may have never set foot in our state. And ill tell you, nobody cares more about the soil health, the air quality, the water quality, nobody cares about the future of that than the families that are living there and raising their families and raising their crops, building their lives on that for their kids and their grandkids, nobody cares more. And so in some of this, i go back to the 10th amendment, which is the federal government has a specific set of responsibilities that were delegated to them by who . Delegated by the states to the federal government. The states creat the federal government. And ive seen it as an entrepreneur, ive seen it running global businesses, and now i see it, a front row seat as the governor, with the Biden Administration, where theyre always stepping out of their lane and theyre always trying to bigfoot particularly, you know, states that are actually resourceproducing states, the people that are feeding and fueling the world, you know, are under attack because of an ideology thats about regulation. And so i dont know that its as much, you know, i dont see this thing sometimes as rural versus urban. Theres a lot of Economic Activity and ideas and stuff that comes from large cities. But weve also, in the United States, i mean, you know, our large cities right now are not a showcase. If you landed here, firsttime visitor to the United States and went to some of our cities today, and that was your impression of america, you wouldnt be coming away and saying, thats the best of america. But i think in this case, you know, theres always this idea that somehow the big cities and the big population areas have all the answers for the rural areas that in some cases, you know, this might be flipped. I mean, that, you know, some smalltown approaches might be the things, block by block, neighborhood by neighborhood, community by community might be the way that you actually solve some of the challenges that were facing in our large metros. You know, you focus on energy policy, and youve said that president Bidens Energy policies are, quote, wrong on every front, and youve consistently called on him to increase Domestic Oil Production. Let me get your response to some of the following facts about Domestic Oil Production being on track to hit a record high this year. Biden administration has approved more drilling permits in its first two years than the Trump Administration did in the same period. And there are over 6,000 oil permits that are not being used currently. So what part of Bidens Energy policies are wrong, and what would you do differently . Well, first of all, the Biden Administration is the First Administration since the Truman Administration that hasnt held the lawfullyrequired quarterly lease sales for oil and gas on federal lands, didnt hold a single lease sale in the first two years. And so the staff that theyre throwing out that theyve got you reading is on these things that theyve approved. Those were applications that happened under the Trump Administration, and they belatedly got em out the door, but they literally havent held a lease, you know, in the first two years. And so i feel thats a complete misrepresentation, they are actively trying to shut down. And biden said it himself, no more drilling. I mean, he said the quiet part out loud, read it in the court document. The president of the United States said no more drilling when theyre required by law to actually hold those lease sales. And then of course, you all know, everybody reported on it, that he went to the middle east and was fist bumping people and saying, hey, could you increase your production . And the state department went to venezuela, thats dirty venezuelan oil, they dont even have an epa, and the state department was asking if they could increase production for the sole purpose of trying to get price down before the midterms. They werent calling montana, north dakota, wyoming, oklahoma, texas, or alaska, the big oilproducing states and saying, could we increase production here . No, they were going to our adversaries and asking them to produce, you know, that energy. So i just, i reject the premise of the question. Okay, so then what would you do differently, governor . Well, i think the simple thing is we have to start, you know, selling energy to our friends and allies and stopping this thing where were not selling it to our friends and allies. We should be the one selling it. We decide to put Oil Price Caps and sanctions on russian oil, and then now theyre selli below the world price, and whos buying it . Chinas one of the biggest buyers of russian oil, so we turn russia into the discount gas station for china. And im sure, again, those farmers in iowa, lobstermen, they would love to be getting diesel at 20 off tomorrow. Theyre not, china is. And so when i say that these policies that are on, theyre actually empowering dictators, destabilizing the world, and hurting the American Economy and creating inflation here at home. And thats all factual. Us oil and natural gas exports are still at record highs, though, governor. Exports to europe has been increasing since early 2021 and now are higher than under the Trump Administration. So why is that . Well, thats in part because europe has finally figured out that they shouldnt be 100 dependent on russian energy. But were still, even in the lower 48 right now, at the time, at the time of the russian invasion, we were offloading 400,000 barrels of oil a day equivalent into new england of dirty russian heating oil. Why is that . cause the number one drop in co2 emissions in this country in the last 20 years has been the conversion of adding in clean us natural gas in replace of coal. And so when we do that, thats always a good thing, if you care about the environment. If you care about the environment, you would say youd wanna have all Energy Produced in the United States, all base load electrons, everything produced here, because we do it cleaner, safer, smarter, and better than anyone else. But when were doing that, im in New Hampshire, and then theres New Hampshire. 41 of the people in New Hampshire are still heating their homes with heating oil because you cannot get Clean Natural gas from pennsylvania into new england because you cant get a pipeline permitted cause people say, oh, fossil fuels bad. You know, i say pipeline, you say protest. How about we say, if you really care about co2 emissions, lets use natural gas as a transition fuel and get it done right now, cause thats the thing thats actually really dropping co2 emissions. So again, this is innovation as opposed to regulation. Well, speaking of the environment, you have committedo making north dakota Carbon Neutral by the end of the decade. Share with me how youre doing that. Well, were doing it all through innovation, not regulation. And we have multiple ways we can do this, but, you know, one of the biggest ways we can do this is through Carbon Sequestration and carbon utilization for enhanced oil recovery. And we got a company in north dakota that takes co2 off of a gas plant, so youre decarbonizing a natural gas plant, you put it in a pipe, you compress it, you ship it 105 miles, you put it down an oil well, the co2 stays in the ground, and when the oil comes up, it actually produces less co2 when refined and consumed than what was put in e ground. So we got an oil company in north dakota thats greener than patagonia, and if the whole goal of that was to eliminate co2 emissions, and you said, weve got a way to do it right now without having to, you know, shut down every gas station, you know, shut down everybody thats got a liquidfueled vehicle, you might say lets at least have that conversation, but theres so much cancel culture around climate we cant even have a discussion about climate policy. Id like to have it, were having a discussion in north dakota about climate policy. How can we get to zero through innovation . I wanna ask you about immigration and also about the economy. You visited the southern border last month, where north Dakota National guard troops have been stationed to help with security. And i know you recognize that theres a crisis at the border. Theres also significant labor shortages in our economy that could be helped by some form of Immigration Reform. How do you think about Immigration Reform broadly . Well, first of all, thank you for acknowledging that weve got a crisis. I mean, i think this is, you know, the most underreported story every single day. cause if you take the official numbers from the Biden Administration in two and a half years, 6 million, 6. 5 million people, thats how many people we have a record of that have entered the United States illegally. Thats the Asylum Seeker number we have. Theres another number, which is the gotaways, which we see on camera but we dont know where they went or where they went to, so the number is larger than that. You know, and if people want to enter our country, weve got ports of entry. We have 18 of them in north dakota. We have a 365mile border. I love when people enter our country legally. And so we should make it easy for people to enter legally, hard to make it illegally, thats pretty simple. And then, of course, i grew up in a state, we talked about my grandmother. In 1900 in fargo, 80 of the People Living in that town of fargo in 1900, english was their second language. I mean, we had, you know, germans, norwegians, swedes, danish, you know, everybody immigrating to north dakota. You know, were very fresh, we understand immigration in north dakota. We wouldnt have a state without immigration. But unfortunately in our party, the Republican Party, i dont think we can have a discussion about a Legal Immigration policy until we secure the border. Thats part of national security, one of the jobs of the president , to do that. And the federal government, thats their job to do it. And then we need to have a discussion, cause when youve got chronic labor shortages, that also drives up inflation, which raises the cost for everybody. So weve gotta balance labor, and one way to do that would be with smart immigration policy. You have called for ridding the country of the department of education. Ronald reagan argued for the exact same thing on the original firing line with william f. Buckley jr. Back in 1980, soon after the department had been established as a cabinet level agency. Take a look at reagan here. I would like to dissolve the 10 billion National Department of education created by president carter and turn schools back to the local School Districts, where we built the greatest Public School system the world has ever seen. I think i can make a case that the decline in the quality of Public Education began when federal aid became federal interference. Governor, the department of education as we know it now has a budget of around 80 billion, not 10. Do you propose ridding us of the department entirely, and how would you go about doing it . Well, i think one of the things that we have to do is not just sorta run around and arbitrarily say this agency or that agency, you know, needs to be eliminated. In the case of the department of education, that could, because weve actually got 50 states that all have departments of education. And many of them, like in north dakota, we distribute it down to 175 School Districts. Were a local school board where weve got government close to the people making decisions. And so you could just block grant the money out without all of the federal restrictions and the federal interference, as president reagan was sang. Just if you really wanna put that money out there, then give it to them and let em invest it in ways that work for them, cause what works in a Small Rural School district even in north dakota maybe doesnt work for the biggest School District we have in fargo. As you approach the next debate, former President Trump remains far and away the front runner in this race. Hes leading decisively, as you know, in every single poll. And no individual who has been leading this early in advance by this much has ever lost the gop nomination. So what is your plan to get republican primary voters to choose you over trump . Well, i think the first thing there is theres so many firsts. I mean, every day you turn on the tv, this is the first time this has ever happened, the first time this has ever happened. So i think, again, theres historically so much volatility in the primaries that were just gonna keep, you know, keep driving forward with the things that we know are affecting every American Family and driving forward with that plan. And when the voters get to start voting in iowa and New Hampshire next january, then the voters get to decide. So our plan is to basically get in front of them, have them know who we are. Were the least wellknown candidate on the stage drive, name recognition up. You know, were in this because we believe that if we get our message out, that people are gonna respond and hear that. So thats what were doing right here, and were on the ground in iowa today. We just got done with a week in New Hampshire, and were very much looking forward to, you know, watching the real response from real voters, can you climb when they see that theyve got an alternative that looks like leadership and the leadership that america needs, the focus leadership, to help drive us through the Tumultuous Times that are ahead of us. With respect, governor, i wanna just kick the tires on this because there are firsts every day, there are firsts in dona trumps legal challenges, the former of president s indictments. Is that what youre referring to when you say volatility . cause the truth is theres not a lot of volatility in the polls. Trump still continues to lead despite all of those firsts. So how do you crack into that very strong base of support the former president still has . Well, i mean, things can change rapidly. Things can change overnight. Weve seen over our history that people that were thought to be the leader, the undisputed leader, and go back in either party, this is thperson thats gonna win, and then something happens and things collapse, and other people, others emerge. And so the only way you find out is actually play the game. I mean, its like, these hypothetical questions that are often asked, its like saying, look, in the pseason poll, you know, tampa bay is gonna win the super bowl. Well, then i guess we dont even need to play a game. Super bowl is not gonna be till next january, and i dont know whos gonna win the super bowl and i dont know whos gonna win iowa and New Hampshire, but i certainly know that if youre not in the game and youre not competing, then you dont have a chance to win at all. You said at the last debate, governor, that mike pence did the right thing on january 6th. Did donald trump do the wrong thing . Courts are gonna decide that. My goodness, i cant even keep track of all of it, but theyll decide that. But you know, one of the hallmarks of our democracy is peaceful transfer of power. And i think that, you know, america and the whole world was holding its breath. But here we are. And we just, we have to go forward, but is the Republican Party . If were talking about 2020, thats the way we lose. You know, the people that love us talking about the past, Biden Administration, bidens candidacy totally depends on us talking about the past. But we have to have a peaceful transfer of power. Its, again, thats the foundation of democracy. I hear your rationale and i hear what youre saying. Ive noticed that you rarely criticize donald trump by name, and ive also noticed that most of your complaints about the direction of our politics, the divisiveness and the insults and the focus on the past over the future, happen to typify donald trump, who has promised that if he is elected to a second term, it wl be driven by retribution against his enemies. And while you supported donald trump in 2016 and 2020 and have said that you would support him again if he is the nominee, even if hes a convicted felon at that point, how do you square that with the importance of character and divisiveness and transcending that in our politics . Well, if youre referencing the debate question. If former President Trump is convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as your partys choice . Everybody on that stage, to get on that stage, had gned something that said were gonna support the eventual nominee. I mean, that was the rule to get on the stage. And so im not gonna go back and parse, you know, that out, but, you know, if im running for the president of the United States, trying to win the president of the states, im running against all the other candidates, including the former president , because i believe we need character, we need integrity, we need to restore trust and honesty. America deserves to have an opportunity to vote for someone that they can trust, someone thats got the honesty, the integrity, the vision, the capability, and the proven track record to be able to get it done. Someone that they know that actually cares deeply about the american people. cause nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care, and Theodore Roosevelt said that. He understood that, and thats why were running. Governor doug burgum, thank you for joining me on firing line. Well be watching. Thank you. [announcer] firing line with Margaret Hoover is made possible in part by robert granieri, vanessa and henry cornell, the fairweather foundation, the tepper foundation, the asness family foundation, the mckenna family foundation, charles r. Schwab, and by the rosalind p. Walter foundation, and damon button. Corporate funding is provided by stephens inc. [bright music] [bright music continues] [bright music continues] [bright music] [gentle music] [announcer] youre watching pbs. Mister rogers neighborhood is made possible in part by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you