Transcripts For KQED Charlie Rose 20170309

Welcome to the program. Im Anthony Mason of cbs news filling in for charlie rose. We begin tonight with politics and a look at the newly released republican plan to replace obamacare. We talk to politicos jake sherman. Once you start pulling on it the whole thing will end up falling on the floor. The white house has signaled they are sending mixed messages. They are saying this is a working draft, lets talk. We are in game for negotiation. We are happy to horse trade. That needs to end according to capitol hill republicans. Now conservatives are being brought to the white house, the House Freedom caucus, this conservative group is going bowling at the white house which will see if they can do some, you know, bowling diplomacy. And senator ted cruz of texas is dining with the president. The president is really using the white house and trying to use the levers of power in a way that Barack O Bam Obama was not successful at. So whether he can make the case that listen, the Republican Party has been promising this for years, this is what we can produce. This is what we can get the votes for, this is what we need to pass, that is what he really needs to say to Congressional Republicans to get it across the finish line. We continue with two stars of the new film, the sense of an ending, Jim Broadbent and michelle dockery. The stories we tell ourselves are the stories we told ourselves first, they get whispers, they become more remote from what really happened. And hes convinced himself that he is already. But when you dig a bit deeper, more is revealed. We conclude this evening with dan senors conversation with shimon dotan and Daniel Gordis about israeli past and present. We appreciate that the two state is the only solution in the region but i think to put the blame on the palestinian, for that matter to put the blame on one side is ignoring the facts on the ground. Israel is the authority in the region. It is the strongest power. Israel does not face any military threat whatsoever in sponsibility to extend the hand, to take the initiative, we have to recognize that we leave now in the west bank where the reality is 2. 7, 2. 8 million palestinians, and the midst of them more than 400,000 israelis. This reality is terrible from the standpoint of israel, not only of the palestinians. And to ignore that and to wait for the palestinian to some of israels demands, i think its quite a short side of the phenomenon. Politics, film and israeli when we continue. Funding for charlie rose is provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Good evening, im Anthony Mason filling in for charlie rose. We begin this evening with politics. President trump campaigned on repealing and replacing the Affordable Care act. The signature legislation of president obamas 8 years in office. On monday the Trump Administration and House Republicans unveiled their plan to upend obamacare. The bill seeks to eliminate the individual mandate for most americans in favor of a new system of tax credits to attract people to buy insurance on the open market among other provisions. But the legislation faces stout resistan across the political spectrum including from within the Republican Party. Joining me now from washington is jake sherman. He is a Senior Writer for politico and coauthor of playbook, jake, welcome. Thanks for having me. To start with, jake, the American Health care act is different fundamentally how from obamacare . In many, many, many ways. As you mentioned at the top, it eliminates the mandate to buy health insurance. It eliminates a whole host of provisions that democrats worked very hard to pass. And republicans would argue this is a free market solution. But this is kind of where the the divide is here. Republicans on capitol hill are positions this as the largest Entitlement Program in perhaps American History which is one of the big stumbling blocks, one of the big hurdles that trump and ryne need to yefer come. From a policy perspective it does keep the main structure, the main framework of obamacare or the aca as its officially called. And the wall street journal editorial page actually conceded this in a very Friendly Forum for House Republicans, a forum that frequently supports what House Republicans and Senate Republicans do. Stem which is somethingreo tear conservatives have seized on on capitol hill in expressing their opposition. Some of the opposition is calling it obamacare lite, correct, the republicans. Right, thats right. And this is mostly coming from the House Freedom caucus which is a group of 25 or so conservative lawmakers, many of them the same people that got john boehner, that forced john boehner to resign just a couple of years ago. A lot of these people though come from districts that are extremely supportive of donald trump. So the real big question here from a political point of view is what does donald trump do to break the fever. Republicans dont have a huge margin for error in passing this bill in either the house or the senate. And so will donald trump hit the campaign trail aggressively to rile up in favor, these lawmakers constituents in favor of the health care law. Now hes doing that on saturday, traveling to louisville, kentucky, most notably senator rand paul is against this piece of legislation. Well see how donald trump positions himself and positions the legislation in front of rand pauls constituents. Paul ryan says he has the votes to pass this in the house. Is he rate . He might be at some point. I dont believe even he i dob believe even he knows it at this point. I think its very early. And one thing that weve kind of seen and its become a continuing narrative of Donald Trumps administration, he is basically saying that he wants to repeal and replace the health care law, obamacare, the Affordable Care act and rewrite the entire tax code by the end of july. Now this is, i have been covering washington, covering congress for a decade. This is something that even the biggest optimists would say is a very rosy view of how washington works. We have 60 something legislative days. In the 1980s it took almost i think a little bit more than a year to rewrite the tax code and that was without twitter and the cable news that we know today. So i think that this situation that paul ryan is describing is probably going to be right at some point but i dont think that his leadership knows right now whether they have the votes to pass this. I think hes projecting a little bit. Did the Trump Administration anticipate the backlash or at least the level of backlash from within the party . Its difficult to know because many of the people donald trump surrounds himself with have no experience in government. His Steven Bannon was a media executive, gary koan was the president of goldman sachs, his chief policy advisor Stephen Miller was most recently a Communications Aide on capitol hill, hardly somebody who is very seasoned in passing legislation or what it takes to get legislation across the finish line. So its difficult to know if they expected it. Ople i talked to last night, is morning, throughout the day said that they are not surprised by the opposition from some of these outside conservative groups, the thorn in the side of republicans in washington. Some of these groups who kind of exist to try to pure fie or adhere the party to a strict idea logical purity. So i think that they are not surprised at the level of outside complaints. I think some people were caught off guard because we theut we were still in the honeymoon period with donald trump on capitol hill and clearly that honeymoon period is over. They will need some of these votes. What will they do to get them . What compromises do they have to make and how does that process proceed here . This is the big divide pitol hill republicans. And capitol hill republicans say listen, what you see is what you get. We put in a lot of work to this bill. We are not going to reopen this legislation to negotiation. Because once you do that, you really start, it unravels. Its like a ball of yarn. Once you start pulling on it the whole thing will end up all over the floor. Now the white house has signaled they are sending mixed messages. They are saying this is a working draft, lets talk. We are in game for negotiation, we are happy to horse trade. That needs to end according to capitol hill republicans. Now conservatives are being brought to the white house, the House Freedom caucus, this conservative group is going bowling at the white house which well see if they can do some, you know, bowling diplomacy. And senator ted cruz of texas is dining with the president. The president is really using the white house and trying to use the levers of power in a way that barack obama was not successful at. So whether he can make the case that listen, the Republican Party has been promising this for years. This is what we can produce. This is what we can get the votes for, this is what we need to pass, that is what he really needs to say to Congressional Republicans to get it across the finish line. The democrats arent even really in the conversation here, jake. But this is ultimately their legacy thats being attacked. And Nancy Pelosis legacy in particular, isnt it . It is. And they really dont have any power to do anything. Especially in the house of representatives where republicans have democrats have been in the minority basically since they passed this law. I mean this was a most political prognosticators look at this law and say this is what cost democrats the majority in 2010, and republicans have had it for seven years since. They could complain, they are slowing down the hearings. The initial steps to getting this bill towards the floor. They are trying to throw out procedural hurdles in the house. None of them are going to stick. Now in the Senate Democrats have a bit more power. They are still not going to voted for this legislation and dont really have a big formal role when it comes to this legislations future. One thing we can say for certain in some way, shape or form the American Healthcare system is going to be different than it has been for the last couple of years. And thats an important thing for democrats, for the future of the democratic party. One of the biggest changes was the eliminate elimination of the mandate and replacing it with a penalty if you dont maintain continuous coverage. The implications of that are not at all clear because i mean some people believe that actually that will digs courage people who have lost coverage to stay out of the system, drive down the numbers which drives costs higher. Is the administration and its leadership able to sell that to their own party . No, and theyre actually not even really trying to talk too much about the spefngs. Because once you get into the specifics on this legislation or on basically reshaping and reforming the Healthcare System in the manner of a few months, we dont know, the republicans have not said how many fewer people will be insured. They are not saying that they are not even saying that they want to insure the same level of people. They say they want to insure universal access to health care which is much different thran the way barack obama and democrats talked about their legislation back in 2010 up until a couple of months ago. We dont know the cost of this bill. We dont know much about this bill. And they expect it to be on the flar in the house and in the senate before easter. So in the next couple of weeks. And we just dont know much about it. We understand the broad contours. The American People could look at the text. I could look at the text. We all have looked at the text on capitol hill but we dont know the implications and im not sure republicans do either, frankly. And we havent seen a from the congressional budget office, the cbo score which usually tells you some idea of what the costs might be and or how many people might be affected or might lose coverage. But the republicans dont seem concerned about that . They are concerned about it privately because theyre afraid of what it will look like for them. Sean spicer and the white house have tried to position the cbo score as not that important. They say it was not accurate when it came to Barack Obamas health care law. It wont be accurate for them. If you are a republican that is a scary reality. Jake sherman from politico, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you. The sense the sense of an ending is a new film adapted from Julian Barnes 2011 novel of the same main, Jim Broadbent start stars a as a man forced to reevaluate his life looking at crucial relationships of his youth. Variety rights the film offers a poignant commentary on how each of us attempts to make meaning of our lives. Heres a look at the trailer. Oh, good morning. All right. Have a nice day. I think it right that you should have this and prance you will find it is an interesting yet painful momento of long ago. Describes an item as a diary. A diary. Helped me with mrs. Fords daughter, veronica. Hello. Hello anthony. Veronica and i were together. Boyfriend girlfriend. Yes, then in high school days, my best friend. Tony webster. Veronica. Both are i wrote them both a very nasty letter. What did you think youll find in the diary . This is horrible. Who is to blame for this event. Something is certainly going on. What is it . What is going on . Youre on your own now. How did you end up remembering isnt always what you actually witnessed. It was an accident. What were you doing there . We may never know the truth. Are we going to address the fact that almost youve told me in the last few days you have told for the very first time. What really strikes me is your total inability to see what is right under your nose such as your daughter. How often do we tell our own life story . We just embellish, and make a new reality. And when everything is coming off the rails, how are we to know that our lives are entwined. Forever. And joining me now are two of the films stars Jim Broadbent and michelle dockery. Im pleased to welcome both of you to the table. Thanks for joining us. Thank you. Jim let me start with you because this is a book that won the man booker prize, a wellknown novel and highly respected one. Not i would think an easy novel to turn into a movie. And it features in the starring role, your part, a character who his own daughter calls, gives the nickname of muj 12, short for curmudgeon, not the most likable guy in the world. No, it is one of the things that drew me to it. Hes a difficult man. And hes a rather selfcentered man. And he claims hes happily divorced which doesnt really ring true. But he thinks he is. And hes living a rather selfish life with his own, in his own retirement. And his hobby of running a little camera shop. But then this legacy comes from the mother of his lost love, first girlfriend which throws his life into turmoil. And he actually finds out, i think through that, we find out that hes not as happy and as content as he claims to be. The film makes the point, and you say as a narrator in the film, that we all in the course of our lives end up writing our own stoverrees. And sometimes not very accurately. Yeah. Yes, the stories we tell ourselves are the stories we told ourselves first. So they get whispers. They become more and more remote from what really happened, i think. And hes convinced himself that hes all right but when you dig a bit deeper, it all, more is revealed. Because he has, he has this little shop, this little camera shop, its like a hole in the wall. I actually love that little space although i cant imagine how you would spend the wol day for. But its almost like a metaphor for his life. There is one customer that comes in and he kind of scurrees him out. And apart from his exwife who sort of products him, the only real relationship he has is with his daughter, michelle. Yeah. So we dont actually know a lot about you in the film. We dont. And i love that. That susie, its a bit of a mystery. Here is the father of this child that she is about to have. And i love that about the film, that there are certain things within it that are unanswered. And which it leaves the audience, you know, for the audience to decide, you know. But they are both at a point in their lives, i think, where things are about to change quite drastically. I mean certainly for susie but also for tony. Hes about to become the grandfather and margaret. And i think that its, you know, whether it is sort of consciencely in there, you know, whether nick and the producers actually kind of put it in there that she was expecting a child, i mean its very different from the book. Because of course shes married with two children. But it kind of all builds to that point, doesnt it, in the end. And of course this discovery and this journey that he goes on to unravel the past and the truth, it builds to this moment which then connects them as a family. Right. In a very in a different way than before, you know. There is a moment when tony becomes like a different person. I mean it all of a suddenly opens up for him. Yes. It is beautifulfully constructed in the novel and in the film as well. The balance of the school days, of being a school boy and then the adults. But the school days and the history lessons particularly and i identified with the school completely. I identified with tony webster from the word go, exactly the same age, exactly the same cultural background. All boy school, the clik of four or five of us who thought we were clevererrer than everyone else. All that fairly unpleasant school boy behavior. And it transpires, really, when older tonys life gets thrown into turmoil, that he hasnt changed much. He hasnt, he has got older but he hasnt perhaps hasnt grown up, hasnt really matured. He is slightly lost child boy trying to find love and stumbling and tripping over people and being rather unpleasant and rude. I love the fact that we dont actually know everything. And were still struggling with life. One of the things i was struck by in watching this film, and im often struck by watching british films or tv series is that theyre unafraid to go more slowly through a story. And to let you feel it more. Uhhuh. I done know if you notice that as actors in making film. In this one. Certainly this one, yeah, yeah. They allowed a lot of time. Hes a very patient man, anyway. But he also has a patience, i think, with making he allows us to take time. Does that change the the acting experience . I mean i certainly felt very relaxed on set, you know, from the getgo. It just felt like a very calm, just being allowed to kind of breathe, actually. And you feel that when you are watching it. The first time i watched the film i thought, its so wonderful to watch a film where there are moments of where you can kind of take a breathe. Where it all kind of slows down. Not that nothing is happening but something is happening in that nothingness. Exactly. And also it allows the audience to form their own opinion of that moment. We are so worried we are going to lose peoples attention that were. I think yes. Were afraid to even just stop and let something process. I think thats a very good point. I was completely in it when i watched it. And actually on the page it felt very because of course youre jumping from the past to present. There were moments i thought how are they going to do this. And even if in the theatrical trailer how they kind of split the screen, the editing is just amazing. And you never once kind of go oh, hold on a second, where are we . Which world are we in . Its very, very clear and yet on the page its quite complicated plot in a way. Yeah. Im struck in having the two of you here that you are known or you have become known in such a different fashion through your careers. You are known because of one part, lady mary which Everybody Knows you as. And jim, you have never really had one part that defined you. No, there has been one, i dont know what is the better course for an actor. Certainly michelle is best for her. It is worked really well both ways. Yes. I mean, you disp have one extraordinary year, i mean n2001 where you won the oscar, you won for iris, the bathta, british film award for moulin rugg and you were also in british joans diary. Did that effectively change your life that year . I suppose it did, yeah. And i think the beginning of that process was the film top see turvy, that was the first time i got an award. The Gilbert Sullivan film. I played gilbert. And that was the first time i got an award. And after that you are sort of awardable, after you get one, that was in venice. All right, we are allowed two awards. Is it true . So the area, that was a beautiful spread. And then gangs of new york wasnt far after that. So that was,hat all came together. But i think the, probably if there is one job one job that really changed how i was perceived, i think it might have been getting a part in woody allens bullets over broadway becausthat was, at that time for a brit actor to be in a woody allen film was very unusual. And it was so exciting to oh, woody allen likes him, that was a door opening, job opening. The success of downton abby was, did it take you by surprise . It did. And nothing can prepare you for that. I mean we all felt we were on to something exciting. And it was a script that, you know, friends of mine had heard about and were reading for. And of course it was julian and hugh had already been cast and maggie. So it was exciting from the very start. But you never, you can never predict how an audience will take it. It kept building. Yeah. And then of course when it hit america, everything changed. And that seemed to be. What changed. Overnight, well, i mean for me it was being suddenly recognized and you know, that was a huge change for me. What is that feeling like . Well, it is amazing and terrifying at the same time. Sure. But it really depends where, to me it depends where i am. Is still does now. I mean i can go completely unnoticed and some parts of the world and it all depends on like when the show is airing, obviously we recognize more. And but its not something i would ever complain about because it has brought, you know, so much, you know, to my life. And my career going forward. And weve opened so pean doors and they dont come along very often. Its true. I think some people dont realize it at the time, you think will you have another one and you dont always. I never take that for granted. Was it, you spent six years in the end. Six years. Which is a long time. It is. And we became like family. And of course you are living your life alongside, you know, you lived with the character. And your life is going alongside it. And things change for people. And. Did you have enough time to prepare for the ending of Something Like that. Or is there a sort of. Its funny because i did this film right after downton, it was the sense of an ending. Yeah, it was a month later, we wrapped on downton and then i started this. Yeah, i mean anticipation building up to those last few weeks, you know, we were devastated to let it go. But it felt like the right time. Yeah. I get the sense that both of you always wanted to be actors, yeah . I did really didnt really, it took awhile to own up to it, i went to art school for a year and realized that wasnt what i wanted to do. If i was honest with myself, i really wanted to act. So i knew really. I did too. I knew very young. You went to drama school. I did, yeah. And i went to a stay cool, local stage school from the age of five. And it was, you know, a hobby that my parents found for us, me and my sisters for our confidence and to make friends, other friends outside of school. Did it work. It did. And so i was dance, i was dancing and singing, it was more sort of a musical theater route that i could have gone down. But when i was 16 i had an encouraging drama teacher when i was doing plie gcses around 16, she really encouraged me in fact, she wrote all my applications for drama school. And then that was it i went to drama school and i knew i was hooked. You get into it drama school, you think im home. This is the world i want to be in. Being part of an ensemble in the grown of actors. And Everybody Loves what you love. That was it i knew i was home. Would you ever do broadway . I would. I would love to. Would you. Yeah, im actually dying to get back on stage because its been five years. You played Eliza Dolittle but not in my fair lady, in pig mall on. Yeah. They are casting a new my fair lady at lincoln center, if are you interested. I will give my agent a call. I would, yeah, im itching to get back. And so yeah. And youve done a lot of theater, jim. I did, made a decision not to do theater until i had got used to cameras. I wanted until i wasnt frightedenned by the camera. Were you initially frightened by it. Yeah. I was the same. I thought ive got to do enough, so until i forget about it. And that sort of lead into doing more and more fill 78s. And now theater has been more spore addic. But i did scrooge, christmas gets, you have to keep it going. You get a bit rusty. They feel so different to me. They are. And i felt the same. I felt like i did theater a long time before downton. And had done a few, you know, tv, small tv roles. But it was, i found it very intimidating at first, the cameras and the crew because i had spent so long doing theater. So i fell like im at that point now where im used to it. When did you figure out how to carve up a roll into very small little parts that you did over the course of three months of shooting as opposed to one night in a performance . Because that is what i always marvel at. How you come tbh and out of character so quickly in between all that cay os around you. It took getting used to for me. Going from theater to television, i found it, because of course for tee hours youre playing the character, you know, constantly. And you are only nipping on off stage for a change or whatever. But having those hours in between, i have gotten used to it now. But i do find it hard, kind of having less control, actually. Because when are you on stage, you have the control. But anything can happen on a set. When are you filming, the easiest thing is when the camera is going and you are filming and you have got something to do. And thats why you are there. And all you have to do is make it sound as real as possible and get in character and make it sound natural and real. But there is so much hanging around, a lot of the bore dom can really do your head in, really. Yeah. You can go in for a whole day and not be used because of things have gone wrong technically. Yeah. And you have to, that is the challenge. Keeping that patience andness. And keeping that energy. Like even though you have, if someone comes over and says im sorry, but are you not going to be used for another four hours, i find it difficult to read a book or watch the tv or have a nap because i need to keep up that energy. Right. Good luck to you both, michelle dockery, Jim Broadbent, thanks for being here, the film is the sense of an ending, it opens in theaters march 10th good evening im dan senor filling in for charlie rose. This week the Senate Foreign Relations Committee is expected to vote on president trumps nominee for ambassadors to israel. Questions abowd on the future policy notice midel east, my two guests tonight have each recently made new contributions to the timeless discussion about the history of israel, shimon dotan who teaches at New York University is an awardwinning israeli film director, screen writer and producer. His newest film, the settlers premiered at sundance in the new york Film Festival and is in theaters now. Daniel gordis teaches at shallem college in injury us lem and is author of israeli, a con sighs history of a nation reborn which won the book of the year from the National Jewish book award. I thank you both for being at this table. Shimon, let me start with you. A movie about the settlement. The perplexing problem, the settlements that have been around for awhile. Why now . Why did you choose to do this now . Now is as good as ever. But especially now because i find it is constantly at the center of discussions whenever anybody talks about israeli and the region, and in many cases the conversation is misinformed. And i thought i would embark on a project that would print the history of the settlements. The idea logical and religious element that drove it, and the reality on the ground today. And i hope the document that is on the screen is a proper representation of this reality. Daniel gordis your book israel, con sighs history of a nation reborn, one could say another book about the history of israeli, what was missing from the discussion that sparked this interest in your doing another book on israeli . Actually there is not as many as one would think, but there are a number of others as you point out. I did it precisely because shimon is right, everybody is talking about the settlements which is a critical and complicated problem. But the settlements arent the whole story of israeli. The conversation about israel in government, on college campuses, where people live, has become really conflict sent rick. People want to know, is trump going to be goods or bad for israeli. Is obama good or bad for israeli, the iran deal, good or bad, settlements, david freedman, whatever the case may be, when people think about israeli they think about the conflict. But imagine somebody came to us and said i dont really understand what america is about. I come from a different country. I understand it is a great republic. I know there are really profound ideas at its core but i dont know what they are. Can you tell me a little bit about what makes america great. I said well, there was a war in 1776. There was anwar in 1812, a civil war between 62y and 65y. First world war, second world war, korea, vietnam, iraq, afghanistan. There are, but the point is that i havent told the person anything about what makes the country great, i havent told anything about Thomas Jefferson and dream of a new republic and democracy. They havent gotten a whiff of what is in the federalist papers, the way the Founding Fathers of this country wrestled with states rights and federal rights and so on and so forth. If they havent read lincoln as address long before he becomes president where he worries about the rule of the mob or Martin Luther kings letter from the birmingham jail, those are the kind of things that you need to read in order to really understand what israeli is about. Israeli is definitely miered in a conflict and the settlements are part of that conflict, an important part. But israeli is really a dream come true for the jewish people and an extraordinary human accomplishment. I thought it was time that somebody tried to tell the story with the settlements and conflict in the book but not to make the whole story about that. I want to show one clip of your film, shimon. This is a clip of sarah nu xon cofounder of the jewish settlement in hebron discussing treatment of the early settlers. Lets take a look. Senor so shimon, do you think it is representative of the Settler Movement at large in israel, that they almost proudly regard themselves as obstacles to any kind of accommodation with the palestinians . She definitely represents the early settlers. At a time that she was talking about, it was really a handful of settlers ta got into hebron and they forced their will, on the Israeli Government. However, the reality today, its much more complex and its a completely different population. Out of the 400,000 settlers or so, in the west bank today b20 of them are idea logically religiously driven and the vast majority are there for economical reasons. Very practical. A lot of them are very gsh. Absolutely, yes, yes. And in 2005 when israeli did the disengagement from gazza so, and i know you dont. August 2005. So is the Israeli Government orders the idf to go into gaza and forcibly remove thousands of settlers. Yeah. 7,500. And what do you think that tells us about the israeli people and their representative governments attitude towards the settlers. That if there is a possibility, one could argue, to achieve some kind of peace, that they would challenge those settlers . Lets put it this way. To my knowledge there is no point in time with an Israeli Government body, did an analysis and the strategic evaluation of the benefits that the enterprise yields to the state of israeli. Quite a contrary, whenever somebody made Something Like that out of government, the result was that what happened in gaza it was driven i suggest if goods part by the fact that it just became too costly to maintain the settlements over there, and ariel sharon decided he had to take them out it was, i would say this is a proof to the fact that its possible to remove settlement. But never the less, its a proof to the fact that the government of israeli, if it has the will, it can do that. And the fact that the settlements are all over the west bank is absolutely an ak of Israeli Government. And its too easy to say the set he ellers, its their doing. And wanted to be a bone in the throat of the government. But the government las to be willing to leave the bone stuck in its throat thravment is how it behaves the last 50 years or so. But the Israeli Government took a risk. They had the will, as you said, ariel sharon to pull out of gaza. And it was an experiment. And some would argue what what that israeli got was not peaceful but was a hamas takeover of gaza and thousands of rockets being reigned on and even further north from southern israeli. It depends how you divulge it. Ises real did not create an environment that will allow the population of gaza to engage in any progress advice a vees israel. Quite the contrary. In the lack of any political horizon, you cannot expect anything different. Im not in fli way defending the gazan government. But i do think that it is in israels power. It was then as it is today to change the set of the preconditions that will allow the progress throughout the political horizon. Could israel have done more . Israel did 12re7bgen the block aid. But israeli strengthened the block aid is not what caused gaza to elect hamas. Hamas was elected pretty quickly after the disengagement. But hamas is a mess, there say reason the egyptians didnt even want it back when they were negotiating a peace treaty with israel. The more pressing question for peace is the west bank. And the question is really, is there a possibility of creating what most people i think still want, what i think shimon wants, what i want which is a two state solution. Then i think what you are seeing when shimon talks about the Israeli Government being unable to take a stand, i think it is really the israeli people being unwilling to take a stand because nobody knows what you are taking a stand on. You can get out of there. The question is what fills the vacuum. Israelis are worried. They saw the experiment in 2005. I was in favor of the disengagement. I thought it was a good idea. In the end i would have to say it was a failed idea, it is good we tried. We learned something by it. Interestingly enough, by the way, Israeli International popularity plummeted right after the disengagement. Didnt go up, as many israelis thought it would, which is a strange kind of a thing that i dont really know to this very day. But the question really is, there is a really very interesting comment in the clip of the movie we just saw where the gentlemen before the interview says that the 500,000 settlers have turned into a monster. He uses the word, they have turned into the monster standing in the way of peace. I think its interesting what is really standing in the way of peace is what is standing in the way of peace, these 500 thousand settlers which as you both acknowledged israel could remove if it wanted to or is what is standing in the way of peace the fact that the palestinians on the west bank still basically are not willing to nernt. As recently as february 2014 john kerry himself has said in these private conversations happening between him and netanyahu and a bas, at the end of the day a bas just pulled the plug. He expected the United States to push through everything that the palestinians want and because it was an Obama Administration to force that be israeli, when he realized that he wasnt going to get everything that he wanted, he just basically pulled the plug on the negotiations and said kerry at the end of the day, the israelis made some accommodations in these negotiations. The palestinians at the end didnt budge. And tragically thats really been the bottomline story. The palestinians have done an exceedingly good job of telling a very different tale and weaving a different narrative. And again its important to state, i would like the palestinians to have a state, a Democratic State and i would like them to have a thriving economic state. I would like their kids no the to have to patrol the border because of my kidsment and my kids not to have to patrol the border because of their kids. But in order to do ta both sides have to make far reaching accommodations. When you were, go ahead, i disagree with you in principal. Yes, we agree on the end results. We both want the same end results. We do appreciate that the twostate is the only solution in the region but i think that to put the blame on the palestinian for that matter to put the blame on one side, is ignoring the facts on the ground. Israeli is the authority in the region. The strongest power. Israel does not face any military threat whatsoever in the region. And because of that, it is responsibility to extend a hand, to take the initiative. We have to recognize that if we leave now in the west bank where the reality is 2. 7, 2. 8 million palestinians and the midst of them, more than 400,000 israelis. Now this reality is terrible from the standpoint of israeli, not only of the palestinians. And to ignore that and to wait for the palestinian to show appease to some of israelis demand, i think its quite a short side of the phenomenon. And if israeli will not recognize that its upon her to initiate, to extend a hand, to come up with a proposition that will be out of a position of power and stop trying to present itself as a victim in the region, it will never change. And it will last for eternity. And eternity starts to feel quite long especially as we get to the end of it. Eternity always felt quite long. But i think you are right in the sense that this has a much wider context. But before we go back to the context. Ehud bash ak would tell you he made a far reaching accommodations to the palestinians, that he did give a and that it was rebuffed. Old mer, the subsequent Prime Minister said he made a very far reaching overture to the palestinians and that was rebuffed. And bill clinton would tell that you was exactly right. You have a third party who would acknowledge that that is the case. So first of all, i dont buy the idea that israel has never reached out. I think is reality does reach out. Israel has no military threat to face in the region. Thats not entirely the case depending what fills the vacuum in the best hwang. That is why israeli is insisting on a military presence along the jrdan river with the palestinians so far are unwilling to, israel is insisting on that for exactly the same reason. Its hard to know what comes across the syrian border, goes down jordan, goes across. You and i want the same thing. So lets talk for a minute about why we dont have the world that you and i both want. We both are israelis. We both care deeply about the future of the country. We would both like the palestinians and israelis to live sidebyside. So really why has this not happened . And i think here is part of the reason that i wrote the book, the book tries to explain that this conflict has a very long history. Were coming on almost a century of conflict beginning in 1929 whenever the course of one weekend arab rioters destroyed the Jewish Community of hebron which had been in place lit lally isntries then a rioted in 1936 when the Peele Commission came from britain. And they decided, they looked at the maps, the jews, the arab and said in 1936 the jews and arab ares are not going to be able to living to. We have a radical idea, lets divide the land. The jews thought they were getting all of that land plus on the other side of the jordan river, peele said you are getting a small piece of what is now israeli. The zionist, they mr. Very unhappy, and they said yes. And the arabs were very let me finish. The arabs were very unhappy and launched the riots of 1936, 1937. In 1947 when the u. N. Par tition commission began to discuss whether to divide it up and how to divide it, what the map should be, the zionists again, the jews who actually saw this as our National Liberation movement, this wasnt about just making a state. This was about ending the tenuousness of jewish life across the world it was about saying we dont want to live that way any more. We dont want to live in england and when they decide they dont want any more jews, the jews will be gone. We dont want to live in spain at the highest echelons of culture and philosophy and art, even pretty close to political power and then ferd nand and isabelle in 1492 decide the jews can either burn at the stake, leave or convert. We dont want to be in berlin in 1933 thinking we have come to the ultimate home for the jewish people and find us all basically eradicated 12 years later. I think what the jews were saying was this was about transforming the existential condition of the jew. And thats why somebody like highal wiseman israelis first president , when the jews were debating whether or not to take this much smaller map than they hoped for, he said if its the size of a table cloth, you take the deal. Cuz we need just some place to call our own. And i have to say, if somebody on the palestinian side were to say if it is the size of a table cloth, take the deal, and obviously theyve been offered much more than a table cloth. Because what we want more than anything else is to begin to establish our own National Sovereign rooteds. My reads of the history and obviously shimon disagrees but my read of the history is that at the end of the day, whether it was the five standing armies that attacked israeli in 47y, 48y, the egyptians, jordan as, syrians in 67, 73, or the palestinians much later, they just have not been willing to say once and for all the jewish state has a right to exist. This land is our native land. But its also the jewish peoples native land, then we ought to split it. Do you think it is reasonable for any israeli left to right, in return for a resolution of settlement policy, the territories that are clearly in dispute, that the palestinian leadership and the arab world recognized israelis right to exist as a jewish state, formally declare an end to the conflict, and understand that israeli may need to keep some security presence on the border between the west bank and jordan. Are those reasonable expectations . Because they seem to Transcend Party lines, the idea logical spectrum in israel. I said they are reasonable but they are not a precondition. There is one thing that i would say is a precondition, if we are going to resolve this issue once and forever. But the deepest of that should recognize israeli as a jewish state or not, is that israeli matter it is not a palestinian matter, as they do not ask us, and i dont think its our place to recognize them, the kind of nationality they want to call themselves. But i wouldnt to go back to what dan mentioned. You were very eloquent and i really appreciate your comments on the virtues of remembrance and forgetting. You give a very eloquent speech on that. And i am some what surprised that at that standpoint when i generally do not believe that israeli is facing a military threat, we bring up memories of victimhood and make it, an article in the political maneuvers that were trying to make now. Zionism inception started as a secretary you lar movement. Hetsel came with a wonderful idea to create a National State for the jewish people, for one and only one reason, to provide safe haven to protect the jews. At no point in time did zionism aspire to a fulfill bub i will kal prove sees or hasteen the arrival the me sigha. And the main that brought us into the west bank with the settlements was those two forces. And we have to recognize that. So any retreat from the west bank or allowing the palestinian to have their own state in the west bank is the fulfillment of zionism trk is not the neglectation of zionism. I would suggest the settlements in the west bank are the neglectation of zionism. The region is changing in a way much different from the status quo that existed for most of my adult life up until now. You basically have a hundred year order in the region collapsing before our eyes. You have failed states left and right. You have borders being erased. You have massive refugee flows that we havent seen at any time since the fall of the Ottoman Empire and possibly the end of world war ii. At any given day you have no idea what government is being to be in power in many of these arab countries, like even jordan. Right. How does that reality drive the exact debate you two are having right now, stafort with you, dan. I dont actually think it drives it that much. I think that reality drives israels concern about iran. I think that reality drives israels concern about watching its northern border very carefully with the russian planes and syrian planes and turkish planes and probably some of the. Iceist potentially getting too the west bank. But i dont think thats what is actually motivating this. I think that would be motivating israeli israel wanting a military presence along the river to try to stop of course its a concern. Every israeli israel understands were not going to move everywhere unless we are willing to take some risks. I dont think the issue of syria melting down, it say huge problem by the way because you have hundreds of thousands eventually millions of refugees potentially making their way into jordan, which is desperate for israels help to stay stable. King abdullah is a closet zionist in his own way. He wont ever say that but he knows he is in power in large measure because of that. He is afraid of a rye j. There is actually as you said a very changing map emerging in the midel east where ironically, first of all the war of 2014, if anybody had told you when israeli and egypt were at war in 73y that the war in 2014, israelis biggest ally would be egypt, somebody would have told you, you have really got it wrong. But egypt was actually incredibly helpful to israel in 2014 war. If somebody would have said one day a couple of decades ago that israelis and saudi officials were going to be in very, very close discussion because of iran, they would have said thats crassy but all those things are happening. I dont think that is specifically the issue of the settlements yet. Israel needs a buffer and the protection of the wider space. But i think that a fundamentally i was going back to the history not because of history of victimhood. Because of going back to the history because the history suggests what is the instinctive nature of the people with whom we have to make the deal who so far have not been willing to recognize who and what we are. One last point about hertzel was in true in israel as a haven for jews who needed haven. But he is not the last word on zionism, david bengor up first Prime Minister of israel had an idea of bringing a language back it life, embodied a new national culture. What the jews have done in israel is really transform the jewish people. That is what i wanted to show in this book. This is not just a bunch of people who of moved from yurp or north after characters came to pal stein and got into a war. This is a group of people who came to a new place, rebuilt an entire people, one of the man stories of all time, just needs the other side to ecognize that we are also here to stay. And put this behind us. Just a minute. That worked quite well in until 1967. Im sure you know that in the war of the war for independence, ben gorrian they said we can take the west bank. We can do that, it is no problem, no military problem. There and ben gorian n recorrected rejected that saying what will we do about 700 thowp plips, now we have 2. 7 million palestinians, we have the west bank and the question is the same question. So the answer is a two state solution. Thats the answer. I think you both agree. So were out of time. I would say as a reflection of the health of the israeli public deblait, that you could have such two such talentedded and spirited individuals who dont exactly see eyetoeye try to hash this out, really tells you about sort of the soul, the soul of israel. So thank you both for being here, the settlers is the film by shimon, dotan out in theaters now. The book is israel, a con sighs history of a nation reborn by Daniel Gordis, thank you both for beings at this table. Thank you. For more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs. Org and charlie rose. Com. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Youre watching pbs