Under obama, the the right really felt like nobody was listening, nothing cared, nobody understood. Poking, producting, accusing them of being violent or racist when they just wanted to be heard. Rose we conclude this evening with Sarah Jessica parker. She is now back on hbo in a new series called divorce. The best, i think, marriages or committed relationships, i think what most people probably tell you is they feel better together, right . They feel like its this fruitful this journey, you know, theyre like fellow travelers. They have this investment in one another. And she no longer feels she can invest. And she is given up everything. Which is also expected and right. Like you do. Rose glenn beck and Sarah Jessica parker when we continue. Funding for charlie rose is provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose glenn beck sheer, one of the countrys most outspoken conservative media people. His selftitled show on fox news ran until 2011 when he founded the blaze tv a subscription based online streaming network. His syndicated radio show the Glenn Beck Program can be heard on over 400 stations nationwide. He left the Republican Party in 2015 after accusing it of being insufficiently conservative. He has been an outspoken critic of republican president ial candidate donald trump. Who will talk about that and more. Im pleased to have glen beck at this table for the first time. We have been inviting him for a number of years. Welcome. How are you, sir. Im good. Good to have you here. As yogi berra said its not over will till its over. Uhhuh. Rose but is it over . Depends on what it is. Rose it is an election in which the democratic nominee Hillary Clinton wins big against republican nominee donald trump. Ive been wrong about donald trump and his pompleance almost his performance almost every step of the way. So im not willing to count him out at this point. I cant see it but people are really in a different place than even i thought they would be. Rose how is that . Theyre theyre frustrated. They feel like nobodys listened to them. They have been feeling this way, i think, since george w. Bush. And the left felt this way under bush. And some of the republicans or some of the right felt this way. Under obama, the right really felt like nobody was listening, nobody cared, nobody understood, poking, producting. Accusing them of being violent or racist when they just wanted to be heard. Whats happened is donald trump has tapped into this and he has taken the small number of people on the at right that alt right that are racist, and they have envelopized this movement. And i think because people are in a position now where they unfortunately some want to burn the whole thing down, i dont know how its going to shall it. Rose youre the best person to ask this, in a sense, because you know the conservative world. What is the alt right. The alt right, i dont know if you can really describe it yet, its a growing movement. It has real roots in russia. Rose in russia . Yeah, Alexander Dugan is somebody that really people should be paying attention to. You will see that 48 of Trump Supporters believe that putin is a good guy. Hes clearly not a good guy. And this comes from this neo eur Asian Movement that is happening over in russia and starting to spread into europe. Ive been watching it for awhile. When i was on fox i warned that you would see the neo nazis start to rise in europe and it would jump over to us. And it would infect the right and it has. Rose and sometimes comes under the notion of being a populist movement. Yeah, well, whats happened is, you have combined here in america, the neo nazis, the clan, for the first time ever, im sure you saw this, about four weeks ago, the neo nazis, the klan and the white supremacists, they all signed a pact together to stand together. They feel this is their opportunity. And so youve united them plus this populist movement. And nationalism. And its a toxic, toxic brew that, you know. Rose and the antiglobalization which say populist movment, antiglobalism. That is part of this neoeurAsian Movement. Rose which we saw in the breaksity vote as well. Yes. Rose fueled in part by globalization, a loss of jobs and feeling like nobody is listening to you. Correct. Rose an fear too. There is an underlying thing that i think is theres two pieces that are important. First the underlying feeling, i think with all americans, and that is i dont feel like i really belong to anything any more. I dont know what the country means. I dont know, i dont know where were headed. I dont necessarily feel comfortable in my church, in my party. But what im saying is people generally dont feel comfortable and know that there is something that they can count on. They dont feel like they belong to anything any more. On top of it, they dont feel like theyre being listened to by anyone. And then the third part of that is they dont feel like they have control over their life, over their business. Rose and things are going to get worse. They could. Rose well, they fear that. They fear that their children will not have as good a life as they had and they look at dlinning income standards and they worry about that. Charlie, i think whats happening is. Rose and that their jobs are not secure. Correct. Rose and therefore they blame trade deals and other kinds of factors. Sheers where we can show stability. And this is where america, if we are being to survive this as a great nation, if were going to reverse the trend, the inevitable trend that always happens at the end of empires, if were going to reverse it, and i think we can, we have to know the difference between authenticity and transparency. Know the difference between the justice that we have going on now and real true equal justice. Weve been a stable country. The reason why people invest in us and the reason why we are the leader in the world is because were stable. We dont have revolutions. And. Rose and because we value rule of law and the whole. And i dont think we do any more. You know, it started with the financial bailouts. Im not too big to save. Youre not too big to save. Rose but Financial Institutions are. Yeah. Financial institutions are. Rose to big to fail. Right. And then on top of it, instead of saying okay, were going to help you, but now you have to make yourself smaller, we made them bigger. Rose here is what i dont understand. There is what you have said some fascist and other sort of fringe elements we would call. You think theyre becoming how have they connected to donald trump . And did trump seek them out . I think. Rose with all the birther stuff and other things . Was he looking for a base that he thought could give him traction. To quote there are many things that i believe that i shall never say but i shall never say the things that i do not believe. So im weighing here how much more damage will be done by telling you what you really believe. Rose well, tell me what you really believe. Im not sure donald trump is as smart as that as wellread as that, i dont think he is eye deep thinker. I think he goes off his gutted and his gut has done him well for what he does. I do think it there are people around him who are deep thinkers. Steve bannon from breitbart is one of those thinkers. He says it has become the plat for for the alt right and when they explained it, they said the void for the alt right is and i cant remember his name now, but is he a very spooky guy. And his wife is the english translator for dugan, Alexander Dugan in russia. So they know exactly whats going on. And i think that there is enough of the and ive always hated this, i have never believed in this, but i do believe its true here. He speaks in dog whistles. Whether he knows it or not, he does. And the people around him definitely do. Rose he being. Donald trump. And bannon knows exactly who he is appealing to. Bannon is putting together a coalition that whether there is an eventual night of long knives where that Coalition Goes away, but he knows, he knows who he is bringing into the tent. The average american doesnt. And this has been really concerning to me. I warned about this three years ago. The influence on dugan, he was pouring money into Church Organizations here in america about gay marriage. And i pointed this out and said you dont know what you are getting too bed with. You have to be very careful who you are standing next to. You may agree on one thing or another, but you better look into who they really are. Because yeah, sure, i might believe in taking care of our borders, but if its a neo nazi, im not going to bond with you. Rose so what what does the seeming trend in this election suggest to you, that america has said no, no, no, were not going there. Or has it found the messenger simply in their judgement, because of a range of factors unacceptable. I think that the right has been, and rightly so in many ways, has been trained that Hillary Clinton is the worst thing that could happen to us. That she is. Rose trained by. Oh, by the media, by the parties, by people who look for ratings for votes. Rose and you are on record saying that is not true. Not true what . Rose that she could be the worst thing that could happen to us. No, i think the worst thing that would happen to us is we would lose ourselves, lose what we are and our principles. Rose can you imagine voting for Hillary Clinton. No. Rose so what will you do . Ness with i will vote for. Rose write . Or. I think i will theres two candidates that im okay with. But neither of them are im not now nor have i ever been a supporter of Hillary Clinton or donald trump. Rose but back to the point of trump, and then how this connection, can are you suggesting using the word dog whistle that show hes not aware of how he has been brought into this . He doesnt get it and hes intoxicated by all thats happened, intoxicated by the crowd, the rally, the sense of that because he talks about himself as a movement, as the leader of a movement. And there is speculation that that is what he wants to do if, in fact, this does not work. That he and steve ban onand others, of having meeting withs investment bankers, do you buy that. Oh yeah. Rose do you think that is the goal. May have been. Rose the fallback position. May have been the goal from the beginning. Rose you really do. That this was never put together about winning, it was approximate branding and about creating an empire that would have a contained and sustainable influence on american politics. I think that was bannon. Bannon said this is a uniting movement. I think trump thought this would be fun. Ill give it a whirl. Rose the worst could happen i will be better known. And i might last six months. I dont think he actually saw himself winning. And i think he has put himself in a position now to where if you look at the financials of his empire, of his hotel empire, when they start changing the name of trump hotels to what are they calling it now, scion, yeah, there is trouble. There is trouble for him. Rose but you have its called him a pathological liar, possibly a sociopath. What is the indication that he is a sociopath. Have you seen him during the last year and a half truly feel for someone that couldnt help him . Truly connect on a human level and say, this has made me stop, this has made me think. You know, im deeply sorry for what i have said. You know, a sociopath is somebody who doesnt really see the Human Experience in anyone else. And i havent seen that in him. I havent seen him deeply affected by the human condition in an individual. Rose no sense of vulnerability. None. Frightening. Frightening. Rose what do you make of the fact that he says, he refuses to see that you, like everybody else will abide by the results of the election. Does that go back to whatever you were talking about in terms of some sense of author tairianism which you have raised. I think that is. Rose which astounded people. It was the most important thing coming out of the third debate. It is much more important than in even who wins, i think, is are we going to be able to come back together. And i think this is a logical step, you know, that we started even during the first clinton. You know, the right started playing the game, then al gore, his supporters questioned it, and selected, not elected. Then the right again with barack obama and the wirth certificate and now this. But the al gore thing came after. Correct, correct within no, no, im just saying, were upping the ante every time. Were losing faith in the system itself. Thats the point. We cannot do that. Rose the drum beat is the system is corrupt. Thats the drum beat every everywhere. The police acted stupidly. Before saying what the facts are. But lets look at the facts. Lets look at who shot who, when did it happen, why did it happen. Have trust that there is the system and more importantly, charlie, if and this is where, and im taking a lot of heat from it. But it has to be done. I have to stop looking at the other side and say i mean if anybody wants to know how i feel about Hillary Clinton, nobody was asking my opinion ten years ago when im clearly on the record how i feel about her. They want to know now because it furthers an agenda. What we have to do is. Rose well, they also want to know now because, a lot of people who could not imagine themselves voting for her are prepared to vote for her. Because they look at this choice. They look at the choice. They are republicans, they are independents. She and donald trump both were unpopular candidates and they couldnt imagine voting for her but the election has drove them to that point. I know. And i think there are a lot of republicans that were not on board with trump at the beginning. That are now looking at her and theyre voting for something that they would never dream of doing. Rose trump. Right. And so were in this place, to where were making it about the other person instead of about our principles. And what we have to do, charlie, is we have to take the beam out of our own eye, if we are going to restore our nation, and get back to a place to where the rest of the world will trust us again, the only way to do it is not for the media to make fun or to point out the wrongs of the right but for the leaders in the right, in the conservative, to stand up and clean out their own house first, clean out their own life first. Rose clean out their life means what. What is it the conservatives need to do about their own life . I think that the damage that is being done in the churches right now is far greater than jim and tammy fai or jimmy swag ert ever did. Rose that was 20 years ago. That was 20 years ago and look how hard it took to get past that. Rose but also you have a very popular pope. Yeah. Rose or not, i think hes popular. Yeah, i do. Im trying to understand. Rose what i am saying, here you have the catholic church. They are in the midst of a very popular pope. Because he seems authentic and because he seems of the people because he seems. He also seems to say i will call out the sins of my own people first. And so. Rose or myself first. Yes, and thats what has to happen. Thats why i mean im getting a lot of heat for not talking about Hillary Clinton. Well, anybody who listens to me know how i feel about Hillary Clinton. Whats important now is how do we feel about us and the decisions were making. And what really request help, and i understand it now, from the press, i really do. I think the press is so freaked out by donald trump that lets just not really look at the wikileaks things. Lets not look at some of these scandals and the fbi. Lets not look at it right now because theyre freaked out by donald trump. When that passes, if the press wants their credibility back, they must go back and look at that and say okay. We must stand for equal justice. If its wrong, even if it furthers my side. Rose im not sure this is what you are saying. If you looked at wikileaks, what does this say . What are we learning about the way power works in washington. Thats part of what you seem to be saying. We will see a system, and we will understand how the levers of hoyer work in that system. Rose correct. And well understand how there is a kind of affinity among people who are part of the system. And there is an excusing of those players, on both sides, if it is my side. And we have to stand for the rule of law. Washington said that we are a nation of laws and not men. Were now a nation of men, of people and not laws. And he also said. Rose well, i mean washington clearly said that, and thats why he did not want to be king. Correct. Rose thats why he chose to not run again after serving two terms. I think we have royalty on both sides. Rose you mean bushes and clintons. No, no, no. The whole thing. Look, all the way down to this, everything that shaping with donald trump right now, all of the ang sayingses, the people who are de defending him in those accusations are all the people that did not accept those same excuses back in the 90s. Back in the 90s when it happened to bill clinton,. Rose when he was president. Yeah, and they were all saying the exact opposite. But because they are a nation now of men and not universal laws, they will say it doesnt matter. Well, no, wait a minute. If you are a nation of laws, it mattered then, so it matters now. But if it advances our argument or our side, we dismiss it. That has to stop. On both sides. It has to stop. Rose well, there was a media friendy frenzy about bill clinton, number one. Number two, there was a vote of impeachment in the house. Yeah, but look at the look at the pattern of. Rose so there was rule of law took place. Yeah, yeah, im talking about the general argument at the time was it didnt happen. It didnt happen. And then okay t did happen, but it doesnt matter. And the right was saying it did happen, cuz look at how many accusations there are. Somethings not right here. Rose you mean the women who came forward to say the same people that. Correct. Rose the same people donald trump wanted to at a press conference before the debate. Correct. So you flip it and his argument is what, a vast left wing conspiracy snr its the same argument. It doesnt matter. Were not electing a pope. It is a vast left wing conspiracy. Its the same thing. That is where i think people are tired. Theyre tired of charlie, do you know anything that we as a people have spent more time on in the last ten years than arguing about the president . One way or another. This one, bush, the next one, weve. Rose bush, obama and the next one. Yeah, i mean since 2 thousand, it seems like all we are doing is arguing about the president. What could we have done with our time, with the man hours that the average person has been in. And the average person is not playing a game. Rose well, you could also argue, what could we have achieved if we didnt have gridlock in washington for all the reasons. Yeah, im saying, what i am talking about however. Rose because of the power of the country, the resources in the country, because of, you know, all the possibilities. And with an urgent need to look at everything from infrastructure. I think were talking two different things. Rose to seens to a whole range of things. I agree with you. Youre looking at the political picture. Im looking at the the civilian or societial picture, okay. Youre right. Look at the things we could have accomplished. But what i want to focus on, and this is why its more important to talk about what happens after the election. Rose which is where. Okay, go ahead. Is the people feel as though they mebt it. They meant it. Not everybody apparently because we learned this with the trump movement. They meant it. I really am against these things and im for these things. And so i stood up. A risked being called names. I went and did things that made me very uncomfortable, by going to rallies. Im not that guy. Rose for the record, you supported ted cruz. Yeah, and so we we did things as families only to have the republicans betray us over and over and over again. And we have felt likeu, they dont really believe in anything. They believe in their system, and their jobs and what they want to do. And theyre using us. Rose in terms of people across the dri who are just enchanted with everything. With everything,. Rose and believe. Correct. And what we have to do is we have to fine leaders in and out of washington, leaders in ourselves that say no, i do stand for these principles and they are unwaivering. Rose and those leaders should come from . Churches . From. Everything. They should come. Rose from government . From the press. Rose outside government. And from the bakery, everywhere. Rose when you think about the kinds of things that brought you so much attention on television, at fox, on the radio, is there an evolution in glenn beck. I hope so, charlie. Rose i know you do. And you are a growing and evolving human being with responsibilities to family, to country, to self. You have got an empire in texas. And and good for you. But has any of this in a sense changed because of what you see in the politics, affected you personally so that it changes your own attitude about what you do with yourself and your time . Charlie, when it was Rolling Stone just did an article or dn. Rose i read it. So they said in what was it, 2006 or 7 that i was the forth most admired man between the pope and nelson mandela. Rose i did see that. Then a year later, i am glenn beck, the fire breathing, you know, radical. I dont think any man can go through that swing without changing anything and also be the guy who is hated by half of the country without deep, profound reflection. Am i any of am i any of those things . Rose so when you look at that, i mean are there things that you did that you now say of course. I regret i did that. Of course. Rose like what . What is the best example of that . Rose what you say i wish i hadnt done that, or fanned that flame. Easy. Reading the president s book, where he talks about the white culture, hearing him say plition act stupidly. Getting on fox news and saying, you know, i think, i think this guy has a deep seeded problem with white people. Rose you said more than that. I said i think i said es he a racist, i dont remember. I said bad things. I own them all. I own them all. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong right to be able to think, to search, i was searching for who is this man. Where is he coming from. You read his book, he talks about this, the way the quite culture will do you. Where does that come from. Rose i assume it came from his experiences. Correct, correct. But how much of a role does it play, to be able to question is important. To say those things as flip antley as i said, to pile on, not good. Rose you were never part of the birther thing. Never, never. Rose fast forward to this Campaign Season for glenn beck. I mean you have praised loudly Michelle Obama and her speeches. Yes, a speech. Rose the Convention Speech and the speech about women. Yeah. I thought they were very good. Rose to her credit. You raised her because you thought that she was. The last speech she gave was, what was it,. Rose she gave it and basically said it hurts me to my core talking about. Yeah, yeah. Rose the famous speech at the convention and the. The speech that she gave about donald trump and being uncomfortable as a woman to her core, i thought was really well delivered, spot on, and important. Now the subtlety here is she also praised beyonce so not in that speech, but is that, is beyonce a good role model. And this dispicible, i think theres some place in between here, that we need to find. But i thought her speech spoke to women. Rose i admired her here but not here because i had some differences differences with respect to this. Correct. Rose Hillary Clinton, lets assume she does win. Even in texas you justing ised to me, she is doing well in texas. Texas . I know. Rose could win texas. I know. Rose my point here. Im not sure she will. Rose im not either. And we dont know. But for it to be in play. Rose exactly. Speaks volumes, not of her, about donald trump. And anyone who says that its the people, cuz this is the charge right now. Its the people like you, glenn beck, who are standing up and not getting into the boat. No, no, its about donald trump. We have to stop being about the r or the d and about principles. If this man ran for the democratic party, the people who are standing up, most of them, not all of them, who are standing up now heralding him, would be slicing him to ribbons. And its hes a more than imperfect and flawed messenger. Because his message is the wrong message. Rose so therefore back to a point you made in the beginning when we were talking about who it is that has people who feel left out in america. Yeah. Rose where they are in terms of, im just saying how they feel about their own circumstances, and that the system has not worked for them, and dont feel like anybody is listening to them. Would you recommend that Hillary Clinton has a first order of business if she is elected, and if she is inaugurated on january 20th, ought to make sure that she tells those people and speaks to those people and says im listening. You didnt vote for me, necessarily, but im here. If i can quote George Washington again. Deeds, not words. Whoever wins. Rose what would be those deeds . I dont know, charlie. I dont know. Rose because thats what. It starts with cleaning out your own house. Making sure, doing things like you know, the irs has been weaponnized. And would be weaponnized for the the right just as easy as it would be weaponnized on the left. Rose weaponnized meaning being used for political purpose. Yes. Take a stands and deweaponnize something. Do something that hurts your party cause. Not your principles but your party cause. Do something, put it on the table and say in the spirit of coming together, it is important that we restore this principle. And i dont know if anybodys willing to do that. But thats what i think thats what has to happen. Words wouldnt cut it any more. Somebody has to be bigger than somebody has to selfsacrifice. Rose back to you. You know, the same Rolling Stone piece i think suggested that glenn might be changing his business and he may be going out of this and into this and something. Are you after election, are you in 2017 going to be any different than you are today in terms of how you communicate and the kinds of radio and television and ways and all of that . Is any of that going away or are you reinforcing any of that . No, none of that is going away. I am reinforcing and retooling for the future as everybody, every business should be, knowing that if you dont retool every three, four years, you will be going out of business. So im retooling that. As far as message, i hope im different. Rose whats the battle within the conservative Community Today that more leakily to be plaidz out after this election if things happen the way polls indicate. Where, who, i think the most important question is the question that cavemen asked at the fire, who am i. Who are we . And i think we need to ask that as individuals, as families, as communities, as parties, as a country. Who am i . What do i really believe . What is worth dying for what is worth living for, what have we learned over the last 200 years that we see this is the essence of who we are, this is what made us great. This is what made us stable. This is what brought us out of, you know, darkness and the cold into warmth, into this. Rose well, people with have very different political views than you are saying the same thing. And then they should come together as you say, first speak to the issue. And then do something. Yeah. Rose which is the deeds. Thank you for coming. Charlie, thank you. Rose glenn beck, pleasure to you have. Back in a moment. Stay with us. Sarah jessica park certificate here. She stars in the new comedy veers divorced it am coulds from creator sharon horgan, she and Thomas Hayden church play a new york couple who decided to end their marriage after almost two decades. The project marks parkers return to hbo12 years after the Series Finale of sex and the city. Here is a look at divorce. How many times. How many times what . You know what im talking about. How many times did you have intercourse with his french penis. Oh. 30, 32. What the 32 you had sex 32 times . Rose im pleased to welcome Sarah Jessica parker. Back to this table, welcome. Thank you. Rose so thats what brought you back to television. Yes, that scene, that very scene. Rose being able to reflect on how many times you had seen whatever. Yeah, well, sort of. The landscape, the territory. It was an idea that i had about four years ago. I mean generally speaking, i was curious about exploring marriage and longterm committed relationships. And i think i was looking at friends in my life and the various stages they found themselves, whether in the conventional institution of marriage or just having these long, these commitments that were substantive, meaningful. And it was interesting and curious to see people at various points, of reckoning, of con tell plating, big decisions, you know, divorce, affairs. I just think its such rich landscape and material. Rose but then with that idea, did you then look for the right kind of, you know, the right kind of piece of work. Yes. Rose that could you go sell hbo on. Sure, yes, exactly. Rose so in other words, this was in a sense something that came from you wanting very much to find the right thing to return to television. Actually. Rose the right vehicle. No, it was among several things that i was producing and developing. I Little Company at hbo called pretty mattress productions. And it was just an idea among many that i was interested, that i found compelling. It wasnt until much later in the process that it was revealed to me that hbo was assuming or even very generously hoping that i would play the wife in this story. And that was a big decision to make. Because i knew what that meant. But the further. Rose what did it mean . It meant as you know, an enormous commitment. And i spent a lot of wonderful years, you know, and those years included, you know, 80 to 100 hour weeks being in front of the camera and behind it. And i loved the process of producing television, but it deserves all of you. And when are you giving 30 minutes on hbo, you better be freaking deserving of those 30 minutes. So that means you cross the finish line bloodied. And the more that we developed this story, and the idea, the more it became impossible for me to say no. And frankly, i wasnt generous enough in spirit to offer this to somebody else. Because it was it was the first woman in a long it was the first woman since playing Carrie Bradshaw who was as complicated as human, as willing to illustrate shortcomings and triumphs and be disappointing to people and reliable. And a deeply committed person and somebody who is has surprisingly bad judgement. And all of that makes for a very exciting. Rose what does it say about marriage, that its difficult, that its complicated, that there are affairs, that people. Yes, i think it says all of that. I think it also speaks of its a portrait of a marriage now, you know. A marriage that is that is struggling financially, because of our economy, because of choices that the partners made, it is a marriage that is complicated by infidelity. It is a marriage complicated by revelations about financial fraud, and children and. Rose all the things that make marriage difficult. And yet amusing and ridiculous and its also an examination of an attempt at divorce and what does that endeavor mean for most families of working americans, you know, who arent superwelt wealthy, who are clinging to middle class and trying to do it right and be decent and honorable in the process. Who orbits around divorce, who feeds on divorce, what does it do to your friendships. So like i said, i think theres a lot to say. Indeed. We see all of this here. Do we see the process of her coming to the realization that divorce is the only way . Yes. And the pilot episode, we, shes at a dinner party, seemingly benign event and there is a sort of monumental moment between molly shannons character and tracy letz character and a gun is pulled and a shot is fired. And it is sort of the undoing for francis. And she realizes as she finally reveals that she has felt this sort of inertia in her marriage which has felt like somebody stepping on her chest. And as she says to her husband, as a body is being removed behind her, that she wants to save her life while she still cares about it, which for me is like the. Rose i want to save my life while i still care about it. And he is devastated and though they have been to counseling, have been married 17 years, theyve gone back, they have recommitted, all the things that people do when they take vows, and are serious grownup, mature people, she feels she can no longer do that. And its revealed that she is also having an affair which is awful and even more brutal. And the tables sort of turn. And he goes from being a terribly sim pathetic husband who wants to convince her that she is in shock and they still have this chance, to being devastated. And sort of a come bat begins. Rose take a look, this is where francis learns that robert once had an emotional affair with an old friend. Here it is. Hang on, hang on. Youre talking about your old College Buddy kathy desantis, arent you. I dont see how naming names look, i didnt say it is or is not kathy what is her name. Is that who you talked on the phone all the time and emails and she even went on a fishing trip with him. Yeah, it was a group tripness. An when i got suspicious because yes, of course i got suspicious and jealous and everything because it just seemed weird, he convinced me that i had trust issues. Because you did have trust issues. The point is i started seeing a therapist to find out what was so wrong with me that i was freaked out about my husband and his old platonic College Buddy. Your study buddy, junior senior year. I was right to be su pi shus. Because he was having an emotional affair with her the whole time. Thats not an affair. We didnt. So what, so what. You know what, i want every single detail. I mean if i am going to be able to move forward, mi going to want every single detail of the emotional affair you had with ktee desabtis just like you wanted from me. Okay. First of all, youre right. It was ktee desantis. I know. We know. All right. You cast him, you the executive producer, you wanted Thomas Hayden church. I did. We were all on the phone call. Sharon, our show runner, producing partner and he was the name i offered up as a long shot and he hadnt worked in television in about 20 years. He and i had i, we did a movie together six or seven years ago. We didnt play opposite one another. It was called smart people but i but i loved working with him in the brief moments we had. And i am a long time admirer of his work. We went back and forth, hes go going to say no. I said well maybe we should let lets not say no for him. Lets let him say no so we send him the material and i wrote him a letter and asked would he consider it. And he read it and said yes immediately. And its its just been fantastic. Rose . Hes such an exciting ak tore work with because he brings all sorts of treats and gifts and surprise and he is very serious about the work. But as you can see, is he he is innately a funny person. He likes to find humor but he is also a person who feels thing actually rather deeply. And i think he brings a sort of tennerness, a sort of heartrending simplicity in a way, to complexity. Like he gets to its essence. But hes also just deeply committed to the work, always. And for me, to have somebody who is equally invested, who understands the sort of privilege. Rose i assume because are you the star of this, you know, that it was essential that you were the one who had the affair, is for story development. No, i think it was more that the story dictated that. I think it makes. Rose let me interrupt you. Because you knew who the character was so the story dictated that. Yes, i liked, and it wasnt my idea necessarily although from the beginning when i thought about the story, i thought that she should be having an affair. I thought it was a story that was real, and existed around me. And that this idea of a woman having an affair, which we dont in this way, is not, in this tone is not something that had been examined, used to look at it more, used to see more of that idea. But also that it was not really comedic look i just like that she had made this, some might argue really bad decision, poorly timed, illadvised. And that she had to very quickly sort out what it actually meant to her in order to salvage her family life. Are children involved in this. Two children. 10 and 14. She is always at the center of it. Yeah, i mean it just makes things much more challenging and complicated and for francis, the stakes feel inorder antley high because her husband as happens has threatened to use them, to you know, to share with them what a bad person she has been. And as he says through the door at the last moments of the pilot episode, hes going to make them hate her. Which is you know, pretty of the most devastating idea a mother could fear. Drive a wall between children and mother. But you feel, she feels complicit, even in the conversation and the threat. Im interested as always what is the moment of inflection, as you said, when you say to save my life while i have a life. While i still care about it. Yeah. What is that. What does that mean, because its interesting in terms of how people because i think people get divorced, think about it a long tame before they get divorced, the fun, they reach the breaking point when they reach a moment which i have no other choice. Right. And i guess its the difference between the things that annoy you actually not mattering because things that really start to matter, i guess for francis, what she feels is she describes it in a later episode, in episode six, actually, she talks with her parents when she finally tells, share this news with her parents which is she feels an enormous disappointment and failure. She feels, she talks about being in this marriage and recognizing that something wasnt right. And they talk about having already been to counseling and recommitting. But she talks about this idea of feeling this emptiness, this, as i have described it, this sort of inertia, like somebody is stepping on one of your lungs, like youre just not able to breathe completely. And that she kept hoping he would see it and when he didnt see t and when she would bring it to his attention and when she danced around it, he simply was unable to hear it in a way that was meaningful to her. So i think for her, what it means is she feels like a part of her is dying. And i think thats what ultimately people do feel in divorce. That its no longer a place where you are thriving. And the best, i think, marriages and committed relationships, i think what most people probably tell you is they feel better together, right. They feel like its this fruitful exercise this journey. Theyre fellow travelers or they have this investment in one another. And she no longer feels she can invest. And shes giving up everything. Which is also expected and right. You do. But when there seems to be no return or when the other party seems to be kind of blind to the contributions, and diminishing of them, i think a lot of smart people feel like they have to salvage whats possibly left in front of them. Rose this must occupy all of your life now. It takes up a huge, wonderful chunk. But its also a finnity period. So i know that there is this big demanding muscular thing that sits in front of me for four to six months. And it shoots in new york city and they very graciously let me be at a Parent Teacher conference. And so you know, thats the beauty of television. Is that it is a really t say calender and there is eventually there is a blue print that works beautifulfully. And it is time consuming but i love i love being back at home at hbo. I didnt realize until i was really there that how much i missed television. How much i love the medium. Rose what about television did you miss . I love the i love as strange as it sounds, i love the limitations. I love the urgency. I love this idea that potentially youre in this alternate universe where you are playing somebody else. Sometimes spending more time being another person than in fact you are your own. That you keep learning about this person. And the other people that surround your person. That you are playing. That there is pace, necessary, and budget, and you know, just, you know, how do we be a show for hbo . What does ta mean to us. How do we figure out tone and environment and you do it at this maddening pace that i think really becomes about the work. I think on movies sometimes if are you fortunate and you have a budget, theres a lot of time waiting. Which is great if you are a reader. Because you can read all the time. But there is really Nothing Better than when you are working, when the cameras rolling, and youre opposite an actor that challenges you and draws you in and you dont know what theyre going to say and youre just simply responding, youre in a sort of partnership, its thrilling. Rose good to you have here. Thank you for having me. Rose thank you for joining us. See you next time. For more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs. Org and charlie rose. Com captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Announcer the following kqed production was produced in high definition. Must have soup the pancake is to die for it was a gutbomb, but i liked it. I actually fantasize in private moments about the food i had. I didnt like it. You didnt like it . Dining here makes me feel rich. And what about dessert . Pecan pie . Sweet potato pie