Commission international recognition, which followed quickly. I started in 1989 the orchestra and the Ballet Company was famous in any case. Perfection doesnt exist. You can try all your life to discover some of the truth that is in a score, so you are faithful to what is written in the score, but this is just one part of your work. But behind the notes, you have the universe, the truth with a capital t and you cannot reach that point because, if you are able to know the universe behind the notes, you are good. These are big, great, enormous talents. But my generation, why would we do that . They had already done it. It never occurred to us. I think partly because i spent a lot of time with painters and sculptors and they are, as you know, they change every ten years and music every 75 years. Its a much slower rate of change. My generation, we just turned the apple cart over and started over someplace else. Rose all about music, next. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by american express. Rose additional funding provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose Valery Gergiev is a world class conductor, been the conductor of the mariinsky theater since 1996, in the past decade, the principal conductor of the london Symphony Orchestra. This fall, the munich philharmonic. He had a vision for the opera house which opened on his 60t 60th birthday in 2013, the new mariinsky which stands along the historic plins can i theater is one of the largest opera houses in the world. June 20th, i visited st. Petersburg where Valery Gergiev gave me a tour of the plinssk mariinsky campus. Here is my conversation with him at the opera house. Lets start when you came to the mariinsky because you were in your 20s, what was your first job . Assistant conductor. I was asked to assist and then conduct public performances of famous war and peace, sergei, another composure. We share production which was shown here 15 years ago, then brought it to new york. I conducted roughly 20 times in new york city a. Great, great opera. If there is anything written on a grand scale, war and peace will be there immediately. Together in the ring cycle, with the trojans of hector barrios, the french composure, and the russian composure. Its a grand open ravment so the beginning was not my choice. I simply was told this is what youre going to first assist, cover, then conduct your own performances. Of course, i am very grateful the director then was uri, the only boss i had in my life, and he told me, prepare yourself war and peace, and there was one moment when he turned, i was sitting and he said, where is my assistant . He said, why dont you come . I want to hear how it sounds. That was the first time i conducted the orchestra. Nobody knew me. He said, hes my assistant, so he will do it. I thought i would conduct two minutes. I conducted the entire opera uninterrupted. Strange, unusual. Maybe i had some fear, but it was the beginning of the orchestra and many fingers of the opera. In two hours, they knew someone on the podium unknown, young, inexperienced, but somehow i managed to go through this large, large opera, and then it was the end of 1977, december. I remember very well. One of the last days of december, 1977. My first performance was on the 2nd of january, 1978. That was my debut, public debut. So then a long time, 37 years and a half. Rose this season is the 222nd season for the mariinsky. Correct. Rose and it was named after . Maria alexandria, empress of russia, the wife of alexander ii, czar of russia. The old theater was built in 1860. Rose thats where we met you, your office in the theater. The mutual theater. Rose and still very active performance. What we call full time, seven to eight performances there or en more there and here because we have music halls in this new theater which is, by the way, also in its own right a very, very beautiful building. Rose i want to stay with a sense of the history of the place. You become, 35, music director. I was not even 35 when i was told in april 1988 that all the artists voted for me to become artistic director. It was a time rose you were how old . 54. Gorbachev brought well known changes. Some of the most unexpected came to artistic institutions but also factories, plants. The economy was stagnating, maybe collapsing. But in 1988, the minister of culture coming from moscow, talking to orchestra, the ballet, Opera Company in leningrad, telling them, we made a decision, this is a man or woman appointed by the village in the country was no longer accepted. The real change gorbachev brought to this country is people started to feel they mean a lot. People started to feel they are professionals, they have their opinion, they should express their opinion and they should insist that their opinions be heard and respected. Rose being the dictator of the state. Correct, and when you say the state, you obviously speak about 100, 500 or maybe 1,000 people who think they make all the decisions, but gorbachev brought this important change. I know him very well. We are friends. Rose he lives in moscow . He lives in moscow, he is maybe not so well because of his age. I was conducting a concert in london to celebrate his 80t 80th birthday, he asked me to do so, it was the london Symphony Orchestra and, of course, he brought historical changes not only to this country but to the world as a whole. Rose interesting the history of the music here, tray travinski, and various composers who worked here, so theres a link to the great music of our time. Enormous. The history here is very, very big. Well known, but i think its important, again, to stress that starting from glinka, the russian composure, hes famous all over the world, and then not only tchaikovsky but other famous composures also. Rose you ever transformed the mariinsky. You have, i think, given it a stature around the world because its not just a conductor, its more. Its representing an institution that youve built. First of all, the institution was hugely respected and was born first as a company in 1783. By the way, always there was a great one who changed everything. Katherine th catherine the gt transformed the worlds understanding of beauty because peter the great, the founder of the city, and then catherine the great, as a person who enlarged and brought even more power to this colossal city but also an exceptionally beautiful city, st. Petersburg. So can you imagine in a short distance of 70, 75 years, maximum 80 years, from nothing, this city became one of the most beautiful, most powerful, one of the grandest, most accomplished. It looked and does feel like a wonderful ensemble. We artists and musicians try to achieve the many different elements but none is more difficult than the citys architecture rose but there was some point when you decided you wanted this theater to expand. Yes. Rose mariinsky would have what we are sitting in now. This is a huge commitment. It is. Now its over 1,000 performances a year but then only one theater, then i was only 34 and a half, nearly 35 years old. I understood there was a huge opportunity, a huge generosity. There was a trust which the company which included some 60plus or even 70plus artists, very, very famous, for example in our Ballet Company the most important people, some of them are 80plus. It would be stupid to say, you have to stop, its enough. The young people have come. The aged pass the secrets of the beauty of their age. These people know how to teach, who know how to affect and make the young girls, you know, 16, 17yearold girls to take it and never lose it for the rest of their lives. Its very, very important to have them always with us. The people were 20something to 80something. Suddenly, surprisingly, i was supported by a good 85 of the company. Why . Maybe somebody remembered how i started with war and peace. Maybe somebody remembered i was hard working. Maybe somebody remembered i was insistent. Maybe somebody thought i had maybe a stronger will or stronger character because they were difficult times. In 1998, gorbachev was still admired by many, but the sense overlosing the ground, the sense of maybe not losing the country but losing the confidence that there was the the problem of gorbachev was the economy has to be stable, then you can bring others based on the economy, which gives people confidence. Salaries, their families are supported, then you can tell them we need more openness, we need more rapid changes. The tragedy of gorbachev was this was not brought to a certain level and the openness and the strong will for change was benefiting the wrong people. It couldnt benefit every family because the economy was not working. But in china, in the same situation, they made a wise decision, to start with the economy, to start quietly inviting western technology. Rose so you made a commitment to build here, then you had an architect who build a foundation. Then you decided you saw a building you liked so much in toronto rosetoronto well, i was never thinking of building the new opera house or the new concert hall we have both, now when i started. What i was thinking, the only one advantage i have over everybody is that i love music, they do, too, but, as a leader, i have to prove that i can work hard, then looking at me they will also believe we have to work or prepare, then we will expand, have quality, have international recognition, which actually followed quickly. In 1988 i started in 1989. The company was famous because we were seen in london or paris, zurich, and maybe two years later seen already at the met. In 1992 was our first rival in new york. I was the first time in america, 1990. So now the 25 years since i came first time to america. Of course, there was not one single year or not one single period of four or five months where we would go there either. So it was very, very important for us to build relationships with the opera with san francisco, chicago, los angeles. Rose tell me how you feel now about what this place represents. Not only are you music director, not only are you conducting, but youre a builder, you are a guy who is, with your own energy, trying to transform an institution. Where do you want to go from here . Look, i had two lidge dare americans who come to mind. I met them. It would be too much to say bernstein with russian roots or isaac stern, another Great American with strong russian roots who spoke russian. We spoke a lot about our ancestors. I repeat, lenny by the way, he did travel with his orchestra. Rose the new York Philharmonic. Correct, and other orchestras as well. Lenny famously was there to conduct when the berlin wall went down. So did cello rose was in washington. And isaac stern was there to defend the existence, the very life of Carnegie Hall and others there as well to give tremendous support and there were many others, im sure. Rose they were all there for the fall of the yeah, because there would be no Carnegie Hall anymore. There was a moment in the history of Carnegie Hall where there was someone who could make a decision that Carnegie Hall should go down and there would be something built, hotel, shops, one of the symbols of the musical world, not only musical america, but the musical world overall. So, yes, you need someone who acts, you need leaders. I dont know if i was born if you call born leader, but i was born most probably in the right place, in the right time. Look, there were great conductors here. I looked at the great conductor who had a great philharmonic orchestra. I understand what is the sound of the orchestra. There was a fantastic orchestra always in berlin changing from the times of bulov to carian to others. But now but lenny was there to help the new York Philharmonic but also the met, to have the large space. Carnegie hall needed leaders to save it. In my own small way, maybe this city or this country needed a small leader who would make sure that the ballet opera orchestra are not going to disappear Like Soviet Union disappears. No more. There is a problem outside these walls, but i have thought in 1980, and especially 1990, 91, i will make it like a vatican. I did my utmost best to make this kind of scenario work, and it did. Rose Riccardo Muti is here. He is one of the preeminent conductors working today. He has led some of the worlds best orchestras including the vienna philharmonic, the philadelphia orchestra. Became the tenth music director of the famous chicago Symphony Orchestra in 2010. Heres a look at a performance of beethovens fifth. Muti will lead the chicago Symphony Orchestra in three concerts at Carnegie Hall beginning january 30. I am pleased to have him back at this table. Welcome. Thank you. Gratsi. Rose is that the happiest moment for you when you were there with a good orchestra with music and composers that you like leading them . This is a good question. Many people extremely happy on the podium. I feel always, to conduct a great orchestra in front of the public that knows what they are listening, it is a big challenge every time, so you cannot be completely happy. Rose but is it thrilling to be there and, each time, think i can get it better this time . Every time laughter one of the most difficult moments is the end of the performance, because if the public likes the performance, the public applauds, and sometimes with standing ovation, and the public is and if you are honest with yourself, you start to think about all the things that you didnt achieve. So you are starting the criticism against yourself, and you have to smile to the public, giving the impression that you are happy. So its a contradiction. Rose is there a metric for the perfect conducting of a symphonic piece . Theres no way to measure if its perfect. Theres no way to measure if its the best because there is no real judge. Perfection doesnt exist. And you can try all your life to discover some of the truth that is in a score, so you are faithful to what is written in the score, but this is just one part of your work. But behind the notes, you have the universe. The truth with the capital t, and you cannot possess, you cannot reach that point because if you are able to know the universe behind the notes, you are god. Rose and youre not god. No. We all have a little piece of that truth and, so, we, altogether, become god altogether. Because, altogether, we can have the real truth. Rose complete truth. But the complete truth, nobody has, not even the critics. Rose laughter at makes a lifetime in music so exciting. Unique. Unique, yes. That is the pursuit of that. And this takes the entire life. I remember when i was a music director in florence, and there was 3 was 27 years old, there was one of the greatest conductors in tuscany at the time. He was still alive in florence and he was 90 years old. When we met, he said to me, what a pity to be near to die, the end of life when i was starting to learn how to conduct an orchestra. That didnt mean one, two, three, four. To conduct an orchestra means to be able to get out of the musicians the best of their culture, their soul, their feelings, and that is what hes conducting, not jumping on the podium and, you know, making all kinds of noise. Rose getting the best out of the soul and musicality. And you get that especially when you reduce, reduce, reduce your beat. And carlos cliveer the great conductor who died said to me one time, it would be so wonderful if, one day, we could conduct an orchestra without moving our arms because, many times, the conductor is an impediment for the public to enjoy the music, because we are becoming more and more a visual society, so we are distracted from what we see on the podium more from what we hear. Rose what do you think you have accomplished in the past five years since 2010 . First, more and more, ive liked and loved the city. I think that chicago is one of the most beautiful cities in this country. Its really a beautiful city. The public, the people are really what we think are the real americans. Rose strong shoulders. Yeah, and that i like being italian. Then with the musicians, in five years, we didnt have one kind of friction. It was always a wonderful time to be together. And i think that working together, i have brought, as every conductor brings, part of my culture. I come from europe and i come from the mediterranean. So i think that we italians, especially the italians of the south, we have this kind of sense of delight of the beautiful sunshine that we bring also with melancholy in the music, but full of light. Rose but you have also said the next believe years are much more important than the previous. Yes, because now that we are really one body together, i and the musicians, i think that we have to use the chicago symphony and the music to heal as much as we can the world because the world is an incredible difficult time, blood everywhere, and the music is the only rose violence and conflict. Because music doesnt bring words, generally. Forget an opener, but music itself doesnt. Words are the problems in life because, with words, you can say lies rose and with words you can offend and yes, especially when you say the truth, you can offend somebody. If somebody says, you are ugly, you are bad, you are saying the truth sometimes. Rose when you came to chicago, you left los cala. Yes. Rose why did you leave . Because after 19 years of wonderful time together with the musicians and the many good things that we did around the world, it was a big problem between me and the other. Rose what. Two visions and this brought the fight in the political sometimes in italy it became political, the fact some orchestras on the left or some on the right, became a problem of unions and became another thing, instead of being artistic, became political. And, so, when the politics comes in at theater or in opera house or a concert hall, its better for the musician to go away. Rose but at the same time ive heard conductors say to me, you know, they tire of this sort of responsibilities of a conductor or the music director of a symphony because of fundraising, because of entertaining, because of all those other things that have to do with maintaining the orchestra but not meeting the orchestra. Yes, depends very much on the people that you that are working for the orchestra the board of directors. In chicago, it is very well balanced because we have two sponsors of the bank of america has been very helpful and is still today very helpful. Then we have a family, sam and helen, and they are friends of mine and they gave a huge contribution to the orchestra for the chair of the music director. So staying together one or two times a year, having dinner together and making jokes or this or that is rose its pleasant. Yeah, its pleasant. Rose are you going to take the orchestra to cuba . I hope because that would be a statement of friendship. As nixon, when he went to china, the philadelphia orchestra went there, and that was one of the cultural statements. And it helped. When los cala went to japan the first time, it was such a revolution, even in the restaurants. The french restaurants, they lost the competition with the italian restaurants. Rose so what will you conduct at Carnegie Hall . Now its three programs, quite interesting because we bring two symphonies oscriabin. There is a composer quite neglected but one of the great composers of the Russian School together with tchaikovsky and others. So we do the first and third symphony, the divine poem, then in the First Program we do the first part dedicated to the sea, mendelson, and prosperous voyage. Then de debussy. And Second Program will be brahms concerto 2 with the great pianist and schuman third symphony so a german program. The Third Program will be the simple to any with the cho rase in the end with the chorus in the end. And in two years time we will do another product of the collaboration between zsenstin and that will be ivan the terrible. Rose 125th season of the chicago Symphony Orchestra . It will be the third shakespearean opera. Fallstaff will be the end of the season. Its an opera ive done many times. It will be whats considered to be top the fallstaff. I worked with him in cala. Rose are you concerned about the future of music and the future of symphonic music . I think that music will not disappear because if music disappears, means that the mankind has gone, humanity has. But im thinking which will be the future. No, the music will exist, but will change completely, especially the new music. I think that all this cultural influences that we are having from different part of the world, from the east in china, korea, japan, south america and other parts of the world, lets say globalization, its a bad word i hate, but the mixture of all these new cultures getting together certainly will bring to a new language in music and maybe will bring also a better relationship between public and composers because now the distance between the public and the composers that are writing music is too wide and, so, this makes it very difficult for the new music to survive because we have thousands of composers around the world. They write their music. When we conduct the score, one time, two times, then we feel morally in order, and then we forget the piece after the second performance and the public, also. There are incredible composers that we had, for example, the beginning to have the 20t 20th century. With their life, also their music is gone. So that means that we have to find the future a way that composers and the public can communicate much more than today. Rose philip glass is here. He is one of the most influential composers of his generation. He changed the landscape of music along with steve reich and terry riley. He prefer to call himself a composure of music with competitive structures. He created operas including simple thinks, chamber scores and works for so los with piano. Words without music is about the life of the music. I am pleased to have philip glass back to this table. Anything you want to disagree with with respect to the introduction . No, usually when people ask what do you do, i say, i write theater music. Rose why do you say that . Its what i do. Rose writing theater music . What is theory music . Its opera, film, theater itself. It can be dance. Anything that involves collaboration, like any of the elements. Rose collaboration and performance. And performance, but in this case, im talking about collaboration with movement, image, text and music, the four. Earth, air, fire, water, thats what it is. And ive written some things because i have been asked to write them. Ive written simple thinks but what people remember is the other stuff. Rose next, you write a memoir. It was by accident in a certain way. I was going to do a different kind of book and ended up doing it by myself. I began to think, what did i really want to talk about . I wanted to talk about the people i know. Rose and you end up with this opening sentence if you go to new york city to study music, you will end up like your uncle henry, spending your life traveling from city to city and living in hotels. You then say that was my mother ida glass. I was sitting with her and my parents ciching table in baltimore after coming home from graduating the university of chicago. Uncle henry, smoking a cigar from havana, with broken english english. There is a history of musicians in the family and that was considered not the best way. That wasnt what they had in mind with me. Rose not the safest place to go. I had come from the university of chicago. I was young. I was 19 when i graduated the university. What did i want to do . I didnt go into medicine or law or anything reasonable. I decided to pursue what i really wanted to do was music. Rose and god bless you for that. Everybody ought to pursue what they want to do. My mother lived long enough to see me on the metropolitan opera on the beach. We never referred to that coverage again. She was always concerned about what i was doing. My dad had a record, a music store. But she was a literary person, really. She liked books. She was a librarian. Rose but she thought you had talent. I dont think she would have known. My dad was the one that liked music. He didnt particularly like music. Though when she was in the kitchen making dinner, i would practice in the kitchen. I didnt like playing alone. I was probably performing for my mother when i was 8 or 9 years old. Eventually, performing music became important for me. Rose the ability to create music eat as a composer, a vocalist or a player, some different skill that people have that or is it something that you can develop . You clearly can make i think its both, really. For some reason, at least in the world of concert music or theater music, we tend to start fairly young, but thats not always true. The beatles were finishing art school when they formed a band, and they were in their 20s. Thats very common in popular music. Not in the world of concert music or Central European art music or whatever you want to call it. But i began when i was very young. I was 6 or 7 years old and with people in a conservatory. Rose you began because you had instinct. I wanted to do it and my parents also felt that this was in the days where everyone should have some Music Education. My sister and brother had piano lessons. I had flute lessons, but i was the one who became a musician. But for me, i would say that i bonded with music very, very early. Rose you have also said that when someone asked you, what does your music sound like, you said it sounds like new york city. True. But you have to remember, i wasnt born here, so i discovered new york and the music. When i really discovered it, i talk about it in that book, too, on my first train ride, overnight ride to chicago in the old b o rail road train was an allnight ride and there was nothing rose the baltimoreohio . Yeah, you remember that. The old b os not there, been gone a long time, and i heard the clickty clack of the tracks. They turned off the lights and i couldnt go to sleep. I was so excited to be going. I was 15 and going away to school with a couple of friends. And i heard the sound of the train, and i think i heard the sound of music in a lot of things. Rose what influence did richard sera have on you . He was a great friend and i worked with him. I was there on a fulbright and he was there on a yale traveling scholarship. He was great. He did life classes there. He was a very good drawer. You might not know that. But he developed those skills. We became friends there. He got back to new york before i did. When i got back there, there was some years later, maybe by 69 or 70, 67 maybe i was back in new york, and he met me i think he met me i came on the boat because, in those days, we took the queen elizabeth. Rose right, right. And he said, dont worry, i got my truck waiting for you. I said, whats the truck for . He said, its for moving furniture. So i moved furniture for a while. He called me up one sa day and said, leo wants me to do a showup town, can you work for me . I had been helping him at night. I did it for fun and because i had the truck. And i became his assistant for a number of years. Rose you both shared a passion for jackson pollack. And a lot of other things. One thing he found out, i was a studio assistant but i was kind of ignorant. I had a laymans knowledge of modern paintings, but he took me to museums and gave me books to read and basically educated me so he could talk to me. And we became very we were always good friends, but i got involved with his work up and through and until the time he left. Rose the importance of modern aired and the influence of pollack. Richard sera. The jenks who comes after the generation mocks the generation who comes before so it can extend it. Everyone examines the generation before. Thats true in language also. Rose who challenges you . Pollack. Rose jackson pollack challenged you the most . He broke all the rules in a great way. The man produced great art. You can look at it now. Its breath taking. We need that expression that we ourselves cant understand in ourselves. Artists opened the door to that feeling. I think great poetry does it. I think great music does it. I think great painting and great sculpture does it. I think its what makes society rich. Amazing. Rose had the critics been good to you . I think theyve been confused. Rose confused . Yeah. Rose confused by what you do . My generation, we were not doing what we were supposed to do. We were supposed to follow in this great track of modernist music. They were fabulous composers. These are great, enormous talents. But my generation said why would we do that . They had already done it. It never occurred to us. I think partly because i spent a lot of time with painters and sculptors and the rate of change is about every ten years, and these are about every 75 years. A much slower rate of change. And my generation, we just turned the apple cart over and started over someplace else. It was for some one of the people who became a very good critic of mine but when he first heard my music, i think the title of his review was glass invents new sonic torture. Rose exactly. That gave birth to my question. And he became interested in music. In fact, he began helping me write a book about music some years later, robert jones, and sometimes ken page was another young fella i had who had a Radio Program on kcr, columbia university, one of these all night radio guys and he played my music and became a writer of my music. So lets put it this way, i cultivated critics who liked me and the ones i didnt like, i didnt read. Rose whats the biggest misconception about the music you compose. The needle stuck in the groove one . Rose yeah, that one. You know, whats the interesting thing with that. To me, it doesnt hardly ever repeat. If it repeated, it would be unlistenable. What makes it interesting is its always changing. Rose what makes people think its repetitive . Because it keeps repeating, but what it does is its about answer the formation, and i did something with people in the art world was doing, we were working towards a nonnarrative expression. With beckett, he would take a piece and can cut it off and put it back together again, the idea that the story rose so youre akin to beckett in what youre doing . When i was a kid in paris, i was writing music for his plays. We had a theater company. We were e expatriots. I was studying music there. We were working on this material. He was friendly. He didnt want to spend time with us. But i wrote music for him and eight of his plays. Rose if for some reason you couldnt do music, what do you think you would do . I dont know. I have no idea. I never never occurred to me to do anything else. Rose how lucky are you . I was lucky for two ways, also. In the age, i was in the generation just between the vietnam war and the korean war when there was no draft. I just slipped through that little window there and i didnt even have to go in the army. Rose alex ross on your early years of composing said in the early years glass was as austere an severe as anyone, his ensemble with maddening fairness on the basis of repetition, addition and subtraction. Very good. Rose you like him . Whether i like him or not, i think its a good description. Later on, by the 1990s, i got interested in all the things i had repudiated. I began doing operas on films, romantic stories. I decided, lets do that now. I began interest in a narrative work. I was still working with scott wilson at the time. I did einstein with him and other pieces about the civil war. Rose did you meet in paris . No, in new york city. Years later, we took einstein to paris. But the i was interested in i became interested in everything, eventually. I started from a narrow place. I had a very good Music Education from not only i had the technical equipment and began with a very reductive place and began to expand. The music, the opera or the other ninth symphony, theyre very rich in terms of the depth and thickness and the weight of the music. Theyre not necessarily what people would call minimalism at all. Rose you dont like minimalism, do you . I liked it when i did it. But it was pretty much over by 75 or 76. After einstein, you might say that was the first piece i did where i brought social issues into the opera. And i got interested. And how do we as artists, how do we talk about the world we live in . I got interested in nonviolence in the opera about gandhi. Much later it was here in new york. One of the things i liked about the theater was that we could include other ideas. We could talk about the impact of technology on traditional life. Talking about the things that are threatening or exhilarating or maddening or revolutionary. And he wont talk about it very much but he makes the movies and i got involved. Rose are you interested in how tech knoll can enhance technology can enhance music . Yes, yes, but, however, to do that i still write with pencil and paper. In fact, ive run out of a certain kind of paper i like. I have to have it printed myself. I have to send away for it. Rose do you, really . Probably can get it on amazon. Its easier for me to print it myself and thats what were doing. Thats the starting place. Then i have a music staff in my office and they take the music and put it into the computer and, from there, we can make parts, we can do a lot of the technology i dont need it for writing the music, but its very helpful in preparing music for people to play. Rose i want to go out on einstein and the beach. Give me the right words to introduce it. Thats a hard one. Einstein was it was a surprise to everybody. I would say it was a surprise for bob and myself. He came from the world of theater, i came from the world of music, but we were in similar places. We put our talents together. We became great collaborators because we trusted each other. It was about how Artists Trust each other to make new work. Eventually, other people were involved in it. It was a work of true collaboration in that sense. I think that what i would say, the way to answer it is its young people. We were in our 30s. I consider that very young these days. We were in our 30s. I think i was 35 or 36. Bob was four or five years younger than me, and we did a piece no one had seen before and we hadnt seen it either. Rose the book is words out music with Annie Leibowitz photographs, which i think is sensational. Thank you. Great to have you here. Thank you. Rose take a look at einstein on the beach. I think that people have heard about it and they reflected on einstein and its conceive pli of interest to almost anyone. We kind of would listen to it and over time you began to understand. You couldnt believe thats actually what it was. There must be some mistake. No, thats it. Thats it. You dont have to understand anything. Its a place to go and get lost, and thats the idea. Rose for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs. Org and charlierose. Com. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org man its like holy mother of comfort food. Ion. Kastner throw it down. Its noodle crack. Patel you have to be ready for the heart attack on a platter. Crowell okay, im the bacon guy. Man oh, i just did a jig every time i dipped into it. Man 2 it just completely blew my mind. Woman it felt like i had a mouthful of raw vegetables and dry dough. Sbrocco oh, please. I want the Dessert First [ laughs ] i told him he had to wait