Consumer. Charlie its those who work outside the home. Absolutely. And at the same time because they form an active part of the world and what happens, you know, they know more about fashion than any woman in history before because they are a true consumer in the sense that what they buy is a real need, you know. Then even the formula of dress has so much changed because a woman today doesnt have the luxury of dressing, you know, during the day and then going home and changing to go out at night. Most of the time, clothes need an elasticity that gives the woman the ability of perhaps going through the whole day in the same dress. Charlie ive known better reporters and ive known better reporters and better writers. I was getting to be a good writer when they made me an editor. You dont write when youre an editor. You may rewrite woodward and bernsteins leads, but thats 120 words. Charlie but youre an editor, even when you were at the destroyer. I had a job at a destroyer. They were beginning to form a combat Information Center where they decided to concentrate all of the information coming into a destroyer from all of the sources sound, sonar, radar, radio, lookouts, engine room, everything, and instead of having it all go to the captain, it all went to the c. I. C. Officer and he parceled it out to the people who had to know it. And in the sense as an editor you get all the information coming in, you make the decisions and then decide what to do, they were identical jobs. But i think i was curious, i think i came along at the perfect time. I mean, you just cant quibble with my sense of timing. Charlie we conclude with Laura Poitras, her new film about Edward Snowden called citizenfour. When i was first in contact i thought this was an anonymous source i would never meet, i thought he was a stranger and i would receive documents and he or she would disappear. I had no idea of the gender or agency or anything. Charlie remembering Oscar De La Renta and ben bradlee and a conversation with Laura Poitras, when we continue. And by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Charlie Oscar De La Renta died on monday. He was 82 years old. He was the epitome of elegance both in design and life. He was a giant of the fashion industry, one of his final triumphs was the clooney wedding dress. The fashion director of the New York Times says he cannot be contained by fashion, his life has always been bigger, more imaginative than the clothes. I have known him for many years, he became one of my great friends in new york city, he grew up in the Dominican Republic but moved to spain to study art. It happened i went to school in the Dominican Republic, and then at the age of 17 i went to spain to continue my art studies in madrid. While i was in spain, my father was i come from a big family of seven virn. Im the youngest of six girls. My father was putting pressure observe me to come back to the Dominican Republic and work in his insurance business. I tried to demonstrate to my father i could make it on my own. I started doing fashion illustration for newspapers and magazines in spain because i could do it very well. That led me into the fashion houses and sort of started learning what fashion is all about. You know, probably the greatest designer of all time offered me a job of working as an illustrator in his house and that really is sort of the beginning. I went to the very best Fashion School and i had an opportunity to work inhouse and see where they were constructed. I said, well, i can be a Fashion Designer and paint at the same time a. I kept doing both for quite for a long period of time, all the years that i lived in paris i went on painting but each time i did less and less. Finally, when i came to work in the United States, i really quit painting altogether. I realized that, you know, to do something well, you have to do only one thing. Most of the people who are talented can do a lot of different things, but to do something very well is to do only one thing. Charlie oscar caught the worlds attention in the 1960s when he dressed jacqueline kennedy, the first lady. You dressed every first lady for half a century. Not every one. Mrs. Obama . I havent dressed mrs. Obama. I would like to. Shes a very fashionable lady. Charlie mrs. Obama fulfilled that wish later this month. Hillary clinton once joked hes been working with me for 20 years to turn me into a fashion icon. She presented him with a lifetime achieving award. There was a receiving line in the white house and people were coming through and making small talk and exchanging pleasantries and along came oscar and annette, his fabulous wife. So i reached out to shake oscars hand and he looked me up and down and he goes, thats one of my dresses. I said, really . laughter i was then, as i am now, such a fashion icon myself. So i said, really . I said, well, you know, i bought it to wear for this occasion. He said, well, turn around. I thought, oh, my god, im being examined by Oscar De La Renta. But it started a great friendship that has meant the world to me and to my family. applause i am unbelievably honored to have my great friend, i can call her my best friend hillary to present this award to me tonight. This has been a long road. I have to tell you that i hope that for all of us, and perhaps she wouldnt like me to say this, i hope shes going to be our next president. cheers and applause Charlie Oscar seemed to understand women. Laura bush explained it in a film shown at the george w. Bush president ial library. For five decades, Oscar De La Renta has made dresses that make women feel good and look beautiful. Im wearing one of my new favorites. This is the dress he made for me to wear for the opening of the bush center. Charlie the same trait that made him popular with first ladies and celebrities made him popular with women everywhere. You know, you have to have a very clear vision of who your consumer is and, obviously, through all of the years i have been in fashion the consumer has changed a great deal because, today, the most important consumer is the professional woman. In my case, obviously, a woman who can buy clothes and, in that sense, fashion has changed a great deal since i first started here in the 60s because its no longer a lady of leisure, a lady who lounges who is the most important consumer. Its the professional woman. Charlie the woman who work outside the home are the most important consumers . Absolutely and, at the same time, you know, because they form an active part of the world and what happens, you know, they know more about fashion than any woman in history before because they are a true consumer in the sense that what they buy is a real need, you know, and then even the formula of dressing is changing because a woman today doesnt have the luxury of dressing, you know, during the day and then going home and changing and going out at night. Most of the time, clothes have to have an elasticity that gives the woman the possibility of perhaps going through the whole day with the same dress. Charlie that understanding made oscar a great commercial success. In fashion, there has to be a very delicate balance because you know you have to have clothing that is interesting and different and you have to do it you know, this is a business where youre as good as your last collection and a there is two or three times a year where you are exposing yourself. The balance is it happens to very young kids. You will see the press write about somebody whos very young and talented and then in the next sentence why hes out of business because the fashion show is not really what matters. Fashion only starts when a woman buys the dress. The show extraordinary dresses on the runway, means nothing. Charlie then why do you do it . The balance is to do the clothes that attract the press but, at the same time, are sensible enough for a woman to want to wear those clothes. Charlie so the coture line and the runway extravaganza is just symbolic . It is just a way of saying what . I mean you know, it service a double purpose. Charlie its probably a losing proposition. You need the projection and the civility that the fashion show gives you because, you know, you do a show and do it in new york or paris and it covers the world. Its on the press all over the world, and especially france. When you do a show there, you get worldwide attention thats very, very important for your business. At the same time, you know, these clothes have to serve a purpose. They have to be a reality with the clothes. Women want to wear their clothes, to create a credibility. I think sometimes today a lot of designs forget the fact that a woman has to wear the clothes. It is only a fashion if a woman is wearing the clothes. Charlie despite his new york home and travels around the world, Oscar De La Rentas heart was always in the Dominican Republic where he opened an orphanage. I left the orphanage when i was 8 years old and i never lived there since that time but its very much my heart and im still very much an american. I had a lady who told me she had an idea to look at some of the children who were in the streets, she asked me if i would help her rent a room in town to try to give some classes to these children. We started i said, yes, of course, i will help you. It was very small. We started with eight children. Today we are taking care of about 450 children on a daily basis. Charlie what does it mean for you . I do it for very selfish reasons. It gives me tremendous pleasure. It gives me a perspective of what life is really about. Charlie and the spectrum of life from the streets. You know, my world, what i work with is sort of a very how can i say, its not really very realistic kind of world. Being involved with the children gives me a different perspective of what life is all about. Charlie what led you to adopt one . Again, it just happened. I adoptedni moises. My first wife would never let me do it and the only time i did it was when i was single. I loved moises. He was the youngest child in the orphanage. He was found in a trash pile. Ive known him since he was born. Charlie how long between the time he had been discovered did you make this decision . Well, i mean, moises came into our life when he was just 24 hours old and we kept him on an incubator for three months, and then he came to live at the orphanage at 3 months. When i took him to the doctor, i said, what would be the best thing for moises. The name came because the nurses in the hospital had no names and they started to call him moises because of the biblical connections. I said, what do you think would be the best thing for him . They said, if you could find him a nice home. At that time, i couldnt see him go, you know. So i took him home with me because he had a very bad cold, but in my mind, i knew that he was going to stay there. Charlie Oscar De La Renta is survived by his remarkable wife annette. She was there with him as he struggled with cancer. They were an incredible couple together. Also a son moises, three sisters, three stepchildren and nine stepgrandchildren. And by a legacy that will live on. Oscar de la renta, dead at 82. Charlie the great editor ben bradlee died tuesday at age 93. He presided over the Washington Post for 26 years where he helped define the standards of american journalism. His editorial skill guided the newspapers reporting on important scandals and national eminence. He caught the worlds attention in 1971 when he and Katharine Graham published a study of the vietnam war known as the pentagon papers. He spoke to me about that time and his rival with the New York Times. The New York Times had gotten it, it was their story and they published it for three days and we were just sucking air. We didnt have it and we had to do the most denigrating of all newspaper acts, you had to quote the other paper. Blacks blah, blah blah, blah,w york times terrible charlie a year later, ben bradley and two young reporters broke the story that led to Richard Nixons resignation. Watergate, it accentuated what the pentagon papers had done with. With you were a force to be reckoned with and you beat everybody, every Television Program and paper in america. Yeah, it put us on the map, nixon did, and then it put us on the stage where we were where journalists are not supposed to be and theyre not comfortable and theyre not particularly good at it and that rattled us for a while. Charlie i spoke with bob woodward and Carl Bernstein earlier this week and they reflected on their time working with bradlee. In the news room when we were working on the story, but at all times he had a glass office so you could see what was going on and who was in there, and then he would get out and there would be 100 pair of eyes in the news room following them around, where is he going . Whats the action . And if two people were sitting around or talking or something, he would come up and say, whats happening . And then there was that sense of, you know, were not digging deep enough. Theres a mystery out there, go get it. Thats right, and there were numerous times, we would give him a story and it would be a hell of a story we would think and he would say, huhuh, boys, you havent got it, get another source. Charlie i also interviewed bob and carl on the stage on the 40th anniversary of watergate. This was when you were 29 and 30 years old. You will never see a story this good again. Who knows . laughter who knows . Charlie their book, all the president s men, was turned into a movie hit in an oscar winner turn as ben bradlee, jason. Hes not a source. Do any of them have an axe . No. Anything at all . No. Can we use the names . No. God damn it when is somebody going to go on the record in this story . You guys are about to write a story that says the former attorney general, the highest ranking Law Enforcement officer in this country is a crook just be sure youre right. Charlie ben came from a family in boston. He served in the navy in the pacific in world war ii. He told me about the experience and how it prepared him for being a news room editor. Ive known better reporters and better writers. I was getting to be a good writer when they made me an editor. You know, you dont write you dont write when youre an editor. You maybe rewrite woodward and bernsteins leads, but thats 120 words. Charlie but you were to the editorship born in a sense, even back to the destroyer when you were running a ship. Well, thats what makes i had a job in a destroyer which is exactly like an editors job, and it was called they were just beginning to form something called the c. I. C. , combat Information Center, where they decided to concentrate all the information coming into a destroyer from all of the sources sound, s sonar, rada, radio, eyesight, lookouts, engine room, everything, and instead of it all going to the captain, it all went to the c. I. C. Officer and he parceled it out to the people who had to know it, and in the sense that, as an editor, you get all the information coming in, you make the decisions and then decide what to do, they were identical jobs. But i think i was curious. I think i came along at the perfect time. I mean, you just cant quibble with my sense of timing. Charlie after the war, he ended up in a job as the washington beauo chief at newsweek. He befriended his neighbor a young senator from massachusetts, john f. Kennedy. He spoke with me about the relationship and the relationship with the first Lady Jacqueline kennedy after the president s assassination. She was never comfortable with the fact i was a journalist. Charlie thats what you say. It was almost like she would say maybe were saying too much in front of ben . Yeah. Charlie jack, youre being too open . Yeah. I bet she said it to him, you know, pillow talk. I mean, that night at bethesda Naval Hospital when she came back from dallas with her clothes stained with the president s blood and came over towards tony and me and started talking about, yo you want to kw what happened . And started telling it. She interrupted herself in midconversation to say, you know, this is not for not to be used in any way, not for the post, not for newsweek. I mean, thats appalling, in the middle of this incredible grief and incredibly traumatic occasion, she still has to worry whether someone shes talking to as a friend that really knocked me down. I felt badly about that. Charlie that she would think that she felt she had to think of that. Charlie and several times later you met her and she just walked right by you . Hurt you . Qn v sure. Charlie did you try to reach out and yeah, i wrote her a letter, but im afraid i wrote it too late. Charlie too much had gone . No, i mean, she was so sick when i wrote her that i dont think she ever got it. Charlie bens political connections gave him rare insight into the power of government. Yet he maintains his skepticism of washington power players as explained in his 1995 interview on 60 minutes. People dont tell the truth. They dont tell the truth in 100 different ways. And its become so easy to lie that no one recognizes lies. Charlie another rare connection with Katharine Graham launched his career at the post. He spoke with me about her decision to hire him as her managing editor. I had a lunch with ben because he turned down two jobs in new york. I didnt know him much, if at all. I took him to lunch and can you believe that i took him to a club because he was the first man id ever said will you have lunch with me, and i was selfconscious about paying the bill. laughter can you imagine . Its so ridiculous. I asked him what it was that he didnt want to go to new york and get on the newsweek ladder, what it is that he did want to do. He looked at me and said, well, now that you ask me, id give my left one to be managing editor of the Washington Post. So i said, oh i said, well, maybe some day. Charlie bradlee retired from the post newsroom in 1991. Then said thank god the person making decisions in the last 26 years showed us how to do it with verb and guts and zest for the big and little story. Ben later told me what he missed about the news room. Gets the town by the throat, i want to know the stuff thats not in the paper, you know, that they struggled over and why did they leave it out. I loved those arguments and decisions. Charlie why is this in the paper and why is this not in the paper . Yeah, i loved those arguments. I loved when people were yelling at me to put it in and other people yelling to take it out. Charlie president obama honored ben bradlee last year with the president ial medal of freedom. In a statement he said wednesday of ben bradlee, journalism is more than a profession, a public good vital to our democracy. He carried the post until his death. He hoped to be remembered by a legacy of honesty. Ben bradlee dead at 93. Harlie Laura Poitras is here. She is an academyaward and nominated documentary filmmaker. Two years into her last film, he started receiving anonymous emails that would change more than the course of her fill. Heres a trailer for citizenfour. Laura, at this stage, i can offer nothing more than my word. I am a senior Government Employee in the Intelligence Community. I hope you understand the con text, this is extremely high risk. Know every border you cross, every purchase you make, every call you dial, cell phone tower you pass, friend you keep, site you visit and subject you type is in the hands of a system whose reach is unlimited but whose safeguards are not. In the end if you publish the material, i will likely be implicated. I ask only that you ensure this information makes it home to the american public. Thank you and be careful. Citizenfour. Who are you . I work for what is your name. Edward snowden. I go by ed. Edward Joseph Snowden is the full name. Charlie poitras received the pulitzer for her work on the snowden leaks and cofounder of the intersef. I am pleased to have Laura Poitras at this table for the first time. Well come. Pleased to be here. Charlie thank you very much. Tell me how this began for you. There are two answers for that. When i started getting emails and when i started working on the topic of post9 11 america. I started documenting what was happening after the attacks at 9 11 about the iraq war. After that, i was put on a Government Watch list and i started being stopped at the border when i traveled mysteriously because i never knew why because it was all a secret process. Somehow as a kind of like, working on this topic for many years, i became sophisticated at using encryption to protect my source material and communicate securely. Then in january of 2013, i received a mysterious email from someone saying he wanted to talk with me and asked if i could share my encryption key which is something you do if you want to use secure email. I said, sure, here you go. Who are you . He came back with these sort of increasingly surprising and shocking emails, and then we corresponded over the course of five months before glenn and i got on a plane to meet him in hong kong. Charlie what happened then . I had a strong sense in our correspondence he sounded legitimate. There was certain specificities of what he was saying and his motivations. I had been working on n. S. A. Surveillance and working with another whistle blower, william benny, who blue the whistle on domestic spying after 9 11. It was secretive, so i received his email not quite knowing who it was. Then he had also then tried to reach glenn. He had contacted glenn, and glenn and i are colleagues. So when we got on the plane, there were a lot of unknowns. Right before flying, i had seen some documents and so had glenn. We felt pretty confident the person we were about to meet was, indeed, working inside the Intelligence Community, but we didnt know who we were going to meet. So he had a code, he said to me he would be in a public place working on a rubrics cube. Glenn and i sat down in a hotel in hong kong and in walked a young man with a rubrics cube. Our First Response is we were surprised by how young he was. Charlie what was the conversation . From there, he led us to his hotel room and after we sort of had adjusted to, june, the fact that, okay, we expected somebody older, and then glenn immediately so this is the first day glenn immediately went into a very, very, very lengthy sort of interview, which was more like a deposition. As you know, glenn is a former lawyer. He took him through his whole life. He wanted to understand who he was and what motivated him to come forward with this information. So i filmed that on the first day. Theres probably five or six hours of just walking him through his life. I think what glenn and i both were struck by was how sort of articulate he is, and, you know, this is somebody who clearly we were meeting who had sort of crossed the line where there was a point of no return and not knowing what the consequences were. Feeling there were things happening inside the Intelligence Community that he believed very strongly the public had a right to know and these things shouldnt happen in secret. Charlie take me to a decision to make this film. Okay. So i work on the documentary and im also a journalist and i think that, you know, there are many overlaps but also differences. A documentary has to have elements that sort of go beyond a news cycle. There has to be more human complexity to it. So i had been working on a film around these topics, around n. S. A. Surveillance. I had started filming the data utah center which is in bluffdale, where the n. S. A. Is building a massive data repository, and i started filming that in the fall of 2011 and i was contacted two years later. So i had been on this topic trying to figure out how to understand it, how to document it. So when he started writing these emails, it was pretty it sort of fit into what i was doing. I mean, the thing that was surprising that when we look in retrospect, we understand, but when i was first contacted i thought it was an anonymous source i would never meet. I thought a it was a stranger who would say i would receive documents and they would disappear. I had no idea of the gender or age or agency or anything. After we had been corresponding for anything three months, and at this point, i thought this person was legitimate. And i was very aware of the risks he was taking and the reporting itself would also come with risks, right . Charlie but when you arrived in hong kong, did you think back then that there was going to be a film in this . Sure. I mean irings had my i mean, i had my camera. This was going to be a journalistic encounter of, you know, of significance, and i had already, before going to hong kong, i had snowden, whose name i didnt know at the time, told me he didnt intend to remain anonymous forever and that he would come forward as the source. I said, we need to meet and i want to film and its important we understand your motivation, as a journalist. I asked for those things. His First Response was that he didnt want the story to be about him, which is something he said consistently, he doesnt want to be the focus, he said the focus should be on what the government is doing. I made an argument that its not really going to be up to you, that you will become the story and your motivation does matter. By the time i arrived in hong kong, he knew i was coming with a camera, glenn knew i was coming with a camera, and i felt it very much my job in hong kong i wasnt spending time reporting with glenn and mccaskill, from the guardian. So they were reporting and writing copy and talking to the guardian about filing stories. I felt my role very much there like this was a rare moment where a source of meeting with cornellists who agreed to be journalists who agreed to be filmed. There were other encounters, such as deep throat, no cameras were allowed there. He chose to come forward many decades later. Charlie snowden wrote you and said you asked me why i chose you. He said a, i didnt, you chose yourself. What did he mean . What he was referring to was the fact that i had been put on this Government Watch list, so i had been, for six years, every time i traveled and returned back to the United States, i would be pulled aside, there would be Border Agents who would pull me assayed and ask me what i was doing, write travd. I had gone through this a long time, starting in 2006. When it began, i was kneeve. I answered questions, well, i had been making a film about the iraq war. Increasingly, they photocop idea my notebooks and i became a little less friendly at the border and had written about it. So snowden might have seen it in two ways. I had written about it for the New York Times, published a short video about n. S. A. Whistle blower who was published in summer of 2012 and wrote about tex persons of being on a watch list and what does it mean for a journalist to have that a kind of scrutiny and glenn had written about the fact i was on a watch list. So when i was asking snowden in the first emails, well, why me, because, you know, at first you see somebody contacts you out of blue, its good to be a little skeptical, who are, they is it entrapment, is it some kind of and he just said, well, you know, its work you have been doing is why im contacting you, and i think that he also he knew i was working on thetomic of n. S. A. Because of what id done in the times, and i think he knew that i was sensitive to the issues and the i guess you could say the effect that you feel youre being monitored or surveilled. Charlie what do you hope this accomplishes . For me, its a documentary or story about journalism, about what happens, journalists working on a story. Its very much a story of the era of crackdown on forces and whistle blowers and journalism weve seen in the last years where you have people like my friend and colleague james risen whos being subpoenaed and potentially will go to jail because hes not going to testify against a source, and the government is doing a lot of these things. We know they subpoenaed the phone records of the a. P. So i think its a portrait of journalism done in difficult circumstances and i think its a story about somebody willing to take personal risks, sacrifices to expose information they think the public has a right to know. Charlie first, there was the story, then the film, and then theres the question of Edward Snowden today, hes in russia. What can you tell us about him today . The film axe ally ends with him the film actually ends with him. I made a few trips to visit him in moscow. When we left, he went underground. We reported for a week, the stories had lots of attention. Then we revealed his identity in this videotape. Then he leaves with lawyers and goes underground. Then the u. S. Requested his extradition from hong kong. Then from there, glenn and i left, and wikileaks came in, particularly a young woman named sarah harrison, and helped snowden to seek political asylum, and the first thing they did is they were trying to get to latin america to seek political asylum and, in transit, they were stopped in moscow and were held in the transit zone for several weeks and, ultimately, he was able to receive political asylum. And i think, you know, he definitely that was not his intended destination, but he is there now and he has political asylum. I visited him and one of the things we learn in the film is his longtime partner, lindsey mills, has recently joined him there. So thats where he is. Charlie he has hope of coming back to the United States . I think he would love to. Charlie he said that . Yeah, he said it. I mean, i think he really believes in this country, believes in the rule of law and would love to come back. Charlie what is it about him that you think we dont know or understand . Where is the public perception, even though hes got people who salute him and praise him, hes got people who feel like hes a traitor, that whole spelling trum of opinion. I mean, we know that, where is the great misconception, if there is one, about Edward Snowden . Hes definitely an idealist. Hes somebody who very much grew up on the internet. He is the generation that came of age on the internet. And he came of age and says this in the film where the internet was a free place and he believes it was one of the most beautiful things humanity could ever have. That you could have a means where people from all over the world, all ages, communicating freely with each other. I think that really motivated him. But to see that be something thats sort of taken away from people and used for other means means of surveillance, commercial means. So i think he saw something that he thought was really profound and should be protected and that was slipping away. Charlie so that was his motivation . I think thats the core motivation, yeah. Charlie and did he accomplish that . I think he certainly accomplished a shift in consciousness globally around what states are capable of doing, what intelligence agencies are capable of doing. So i think hes raised that awareness. I think one of his main goals is he shows things like we live in a democracy, we have a rule of law and a constitution and there were things happening in secret that the public should know about. Charlie but theres a limit to his respect for the rule of law because he doesnt trust the system if he comes back. Well, i mean, thats charlie is that fair . Well, hes been charged under the espionage act which many people said is a really draconian legal statute that does not allow for a basic defense and, so, basically, he couldnt say, for instance i mean, in the case of an espionage charge, yo you couldnt expose information of a legality, and there are few options to have a fair trial, and this is something that the aclu has taken his case, ben wisner, one of his attorneys, makes the case strongly its hard to have a fair trial under the espionage act. Charlie are there negotiations for his return . I think his lawyer has talked about details. I dont know. Charlie snowden in your film talking about his desire to go public as the source, to acknowledge he is the source. People say, are you going public . I think its soon. I think as soon as they try to make this about me, which should be any day now, ill come out just to go, hey, you know, this is not a question of somebody skullicking around in the shadows. These are public issues, not my issues. These are everybodys issues and im not afraid of you. Youre not going to bully me into silence like youve done to everybody else. And if nobody else will do it, i will. And hopefully, when im gone, whatever you do to me, somebody else will do the same thing. It will be the sort of internet principle of the hydra. You can stalk one person but there will be more to snys does he have any sense as to whether there was damage done to Americas National security as has been suggested by the government . I mean two, things in response to that. First of all, he made the decision to work with journalists so hes entrusted the information to journalists myself, glenn greenweekold, Barton Gellman had been reporting. So i think the fact the work goes through a lengthy journalistic and editorial process. Charlie and with consultation with the government saying this is what were going to do. Yes. Charlie and in some cases they said dont do that and in some cases you said yes and in some no. Is that fair . Everyone goes through the contact and confrontation with the government saying, this is what we intent to publish, do you want to comment on it and do you have any concerns about what were publishing . In terms of stories ive worked on, im trying to think there were some redactions of stories that ive worked on that have happened because the government made a persuasive argument that they should be redacted, but in general, you know, these decisions are made in newsrooms, the guardian of the sometimes. Charlie these decisions are made in newsrooms all over the country, had nothing to do with Edward Snowden. Sure, this is the process. Everything has gone through that process in terms of harmony. We have been careful in terms of the reporting that weve done. Charlie they argue, for example, theyll argue that somehow people will know what sources they have, not in terms of individuals, but they will know their means and that that somehow will result in them having to go through a process of having to redo whatever means they had, spying on enemies of the state, so to speak. I mean, i would say i mean, there are stories ive worked on and doing the reporting and there are two stories that talk about one of the things theyre doing in terms of targeting. Theyve gone and targeted engineers at telecoms, so the people who are sort of the keepers of the passwords and gateways into the telecommunication systems. We have documents that show actual names of people who work for belgian telekom in germany and names of engineers, these are people not suspected overanything. The only reason you see h. Q. Which is a British Intelligence agency and the n. S. A. Are interested in is because these people are, you know, an access point to get to their networks. And, i mean, yeah, i have published those kinds of stories and it does reveal that theyre doing something so if you have an individual goes to their linkedin page and the h. Q. Or n. S. A. Will send back Malicious Software that will affect the engineers computer and they go and type in a password and then the n. S. A. Or h. Q. Has their password. This is happening in allied countries and in europe. I think this reporting should happen and there should be questions about the extent of these technologies. Charlie take a look at. This a clip of journalists at the guardian discussing publication of a story on g. S. H. Q. Here it is. Well, so which ones do you want here . This is operational stuff, so we mustnt say redact that. The quotes . Yeah. Collect all the signals all the time sounds like a good summer home project. Keep that, n. S. A. , on a visit to the u. K. This one. Secret documents. We have to stick here, single slides. If it has more than three single slides, we have to be extremely careful. Yeah, thats it. This is really dangerous stuff were starting. We kept it all under lock and key. I know. Im not saying that. Charlie one thing everybody agrees on is the whole snowden affair caused a conversation even the president said this about security and freedom, security and privacy. Has that conversation been beneficial and has it helped the country to cop come to a greater sense of what surveillance is taking place, where it goes too far, and at the same time where its necessary for national security. I think the debate is ongoing and its changed consciousness, not necessarily policy. I think there are still programs in place. For instance, the first story glen did was the verizon document which revealed the government had a secret interpretation of the patriot act where they were collecting phone records of american citizens. This program is still in effect. So i think that, yeah, there has been more understanding of what the n. S. A. Is doing and the government is doing but there hasnt been actual changes yet. You know, in terms of i have been working on post9 11 stuff for a long time and i think one of the dilemmas ive seen is a lot of the policies were engaging in, i would argue they dont necessarily make us safer. If you look at the iraq war which i documented, you know, i think that were seeing now some of the unintended consequences of that occupation and what happened and the kind of instability in the region. So i think that im not fully convinced that the security that the government says that theyre providing in these policies for citizens are any safer. Charlie are you convinced the government is not doing things it was doing because of this exposure . Yeah, i think thats true. So, for instance, i reported with colleagues about the tapping of Angela Merkels cell phone. Charlie they promised her they wanted they wouldnt do that either. Yeah, i think maybe she has a little bit less attention than before. Charlie where does this story go from here . You have this document citizenfour. Where does this story go . You have a profile of you by a great reporter george in behind the scenes of Edward Snowden. Where does the story go . We actually ended on a point of question that things are ongoing and threats you know, i think i believe that what the n. S. A. Is doing is a threat to democracy. Charlie what it continues to do . What it continues to do is a threat. In terms of my profession as a journalist, if the government can find out who im talking to, then how can i protect the source, you know . And i think that and its not just me. There are many, many charlie they know who youre talking to at every level because i think im a unique situation in the fact that i have been doing this reporting, so i think they feel they have to charlie back off . Well, back off on one hand, but im sure there are people who want to know who i meet with. Charlie to me, this is a really interesting question, because it seems to be an ongoing conversation as well the relationship between the government and internet companies. Sure. That has absolutely changed. Were seeing that shift. Were seeing more change in the Technology Companies and in our government in the sense that the tech knoll Companies Realize that the customers do want to be able to communicate privately and they want to build tools that will satisfy that. So i think were going to see more and more Technology Companies coming forward and offering ways to encrypt communication. I also think theres a movement of the Free Software movement that have been building these tools for over a decade. Charlie we said in the last couple of weeks, a case where the head of the f. B. I. Said on 60 minutes, you know, that they were very concerned about the fact that, you know, these things that they had no access. They didnt have the encryption code. I have a lot of friends who are cryptographers. If you have a system that has back doors, its naive to think only the u. S. Can break the back doors, that other gochts can break them and you have a system, an internet thats insecure by design and there are a lot of people who think thats a very dangerous way to go. Charlie lots of people who dont look with favor on Edward Snowden, you know, believe theres no way that he didnt, in some way, in conversations with the Chinese Government in hong kong or with the russian government when he was seeking protection from being put on a plane, didnt somehow tell them something. I dont believe it. Absolutely. Charlie he says that. Yeah, he says there was somebody with him the whole time. Sarah harrison was with him and she was there precisely for that reason to be able to say, no, we were not approached by government. So this is it does not fit in anything that of the person that i know and theres no evidence of it. Theres zero. I mean, he sought and received political asylum. Charlie thank you for coming. Thank you. Charlie great to meet you. Great to meet you. Charlie for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs. Org and charlierose. Com. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org charlie rose, a conversation with richard haas and neil wilson. Join us. Pere at a period where relationships are complex. Neither allies or adversaries, theyre often changing depending on the issue or the day of the week. This also is power spreading around the world, diffusing it to many, many hands in many forms. Decision making is increasingly decentralized. Weve moved along this year, next month is the 25t 25th anniversary of the end of the cold war and in 25 years weve moved from a world tightly controlled by two superpowers two a world not centrally tightly controlled and many people are making consequential decisions. From the point of view of combined science and humanities, i think we were approaching a time now where the appropriate disciplines of science have learned enough and are moving enough in the right direction so they can connect with the best of humanities to create a much better picture of who we are and where we came from than we ever had before. In fact, i would like to refer to it whats happening and will happen shortly as the new enlightenment. Charlie . Charlie funding for charlie rose has been provided by the Cocacola Company supporting this Program Since 2002. American express. Additional funding provided by. Man its like holy mother of comfort food. Ion. Kastner throw it down. Its noodle crack. Patel you have to be ready for the heart attack on a platter. Crowell okay, im the bacon guy, right . Man oh, i just did a jig every time i dipped into it. Man 2 it just completely blew my mind. Woman it felt like i had a mouthful of raw vegetables and dry dough. Sbrocco oh, please. I want the Dessert First [ laughs ] i told him he had to wait