Charlie we conclude this evening with lynne cheney. Her new biography of James Madison is called James Madison a life reconsidered. Washington is calledni the indispensable man. Without madison, there would have been no constitution, i think you can make that case, certainly no bill of rights. He was absolutely essential getting the new government under the constitution underway and became the first president to take the nation to war under the constitution, setting a precedent there as well. Kkf i think of all the founders, hes probably most left the impression of his mind on our lives. Charlie sister rosemary and lynne cheney next. Theres a saying around here you stand behind what you say. Around here, we dont make excuses, we make commitments. And when you cant live up to them, you own up and make it right. Some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where its needed most. But i know youll still find it, when you know where to look. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Charlie sister Rosemary Nyirumbe is here, her work is to provide shelter for female victims of the shelter in uganda, and the subjects of a document rinarratedni by for ret whitaker called sewing hope. 3 especially. They were capable young killers but could be used as sex slaves for commanding young officers. Eventually these girls became mothers themselves, some as young as 13 or 14 years old. Six yearsni after kony fled northern uganda, these girls were released from physical bondage but they still remained enslaved, carrying scars from their time in the bush and their captors children on their backs, they had nowhere to turn. The guns have stopped firing but the war still remains for one woman who directs a small tailoring school in gulu, uganda. She fights for these girls, with sewing machines and pop tabs. Charlie the fate of girls abducted by terrorist groups in africa has been in the head lines recently. Boko haram kidnapped almost 30 school girls last month and promised to sell them into slavery. The president promised assistance to find the girls. Im proud to have sister rosemary at this table for the first time and thanks for visiting us. Thank you for having me here. Im happy you gave me this opportunity to speak. Charlie me what you do. I have been engaged for many years helping young women and children get up from where their life has been robbed from them, especially their dignity, their childhood and education and a good number of them were even robbed of their own families. So most of the children abducted by the north resistance army, taken into captivity, trained as child slaves and the young girls were given over to the commanders and used as sex slaves. They were gods children. When they came back, it was a very different life for them. They didnt know how to start. The community were afraid of the children because they were trained killers. The army used tactics of training these children as kill canners. They were able to kill their own siblings and these children were feared by the community when they came back. This was exactly the time when i thought it was important for me to open the school, open the door and make the school become more of a family, where these girls can be accepted, where they can again restore their own lost childhood, where they can recover from their pain. It was daily walking with them, accompanying them, and together with my assistance to adopt these girls and children, show them love. Charlie for rest whitaker writing in the times 100 profile, he said sister rosemary has the power to rekindle a bright light in ey the women with children born out of conflict, she helps them become loving mothers at last. How do you explain that . For these children to become loving mothers, they had to receive love. Charlie nr to give love, you have to receive love. Yes, and accept walking side by side with them, giving them love. I really had to act as a mother. These girls began to love their own children. Ive sort of given them skills. I told them, whatever skills im giving you, make sure you get married to it because it will be your future. You get married tomorrow to somebody. It might be a temporary marriage and will not help you to take care of these children. Learn all the skills, get married to them, and you will see how you walk with your head up, you will have your dignity restored. Your destiny is in your own hands, and thats how they became loving mothers because theyre able to provide for their own children. Charlie you have met children fathered byco joseph kony. Yes. Charlie who is he . If i had a chance to meet him, the only thing i can say to him is that i forgive you but i would like you to know that i have been caring for your children. I have been restoring the dignity of the girls who you took and i will not forget to tell him that these children have fought back and their dignity is restored and they are the winners, its not you. Charlie how many young girls kyung he has taken, joseph kony . At one time, there were more than 50 girls who were his wives and, of course, thousands of girls who were taken. Sometimes its difficult to keep the number. Charlie and now we have the story of nigeria boko haram. And you have said they have been given into sex slavery. Human trafficking. Marriage is a noble word. Let us call it sex slavery, human trafficking, which is evil. We must not sugar coat anything. We must call evil by its name to fight it. That means we must come together to really realize and say thisnr is evil, we are fighting against it. Charlie you argue its the media that can make a difference . So much. The media can make a difference. Not just the media could make things not look right. The media in this case can make things look right if they bring out the right title, if they encourage people by saying this is sex slavery. Many times people forget. I know were all human beings, and many times the media looks for Current Issues where they can say easily, this is an old story. For instance, when this is happening in uganda, some people had courage to say this is something that we cannot talk about anymore. Its not on the front page. It has happened in nigeria. And in two weeks, this is already something old, we need new topics to put in the front line. I think that is wrong, the media should put this over and over again in the front page and call it by its name and encourage people, call on people that weve got to fight this evil. It is not only nigeria. Its not a nigerian issue anymore or an african issue anymore, it is an issue for the world to fight against. Charlie and you think the world will respond . I think the world should respond. Charlie i know you think it should. Do you think they will . If they dont respond, those few who understand and know we must stand up and shout to people we must come together and shout. Charlie what is it that drives them, these leaders of boko haram . All selfish interest, power and also trying to make women look as if they were trash, women of no values. Because for women to try to work through their life and go to study to define their future, you come and take them and say stop studying. I think its terrible. Its a way of crushing women again. Its a way to make women to be, like, secondclass citizens in the world. I think thats very, very wrong. Charlie the president s reacted, as you saw. Yes. Charlie that must please you. I was very happy. Charlie but they can do more. They can do more. They can do more. And, of course, i keep emphasizing, the media should keep encouraging, should keep on talking about this over and over again. Sometimes silence doesnt do us any favor in this case. This is evil against humanity. What has happened to nigeria can happen in the United States, can happen again in uganda, can happen in any part of the world. So let us forget who we are and we say, if we dont fight this evil, it will happen. Let us put ourselves in place of the mothers of these girls. Let us put ourselves in the place of these girls. They feel like theyre forgotten. We have to give them the encouragement that theyre not forgotten. Were going to let them be walking in hope again. Charlie so when you perceive them, whether its in uganda or sudan or if you would visit nigeria, tell me how it impacts them because, obviously, it destroys, in some cases, hope. Yes. Charlie you suffer abuse. Yeah. Charlie you suffer even though a Sexual Assault and assault on your dignity, your person. But it means a lot to be able to open arms and accept these children, embrace these girls, and make them feel i am embracing you. I know your background, but i dont care. Its only love and compassion i show you. If i can embrace you, i can give you love. I know you have been sexually destroyed. I want to encourage you, slowly, speak about it. Speak about it. Im as a mother to you. I think these children will know the world cares. Let their tears come, but we must be able to wipe those tears. They should cry on our shoulders. Charlie tell me the stories that have moved you the most. There are a lot of things that have moved me the most, but when i see these young women struggle and working through, i see their resilience, i see how strong they are. It moves me. And i say, we must not let them be alone. Weve got to encourage them. And we have to let them know they are made for more. They have a lot of values. The world is there caring for them, and everybody at this time is going to let them feel their situation and their future can be better. Charlie we know sex trafficking is a global phenomenon. Yes. Charlie even reaches into the United States. Yes. Charlie how pervasive is it in africa . It is, i think, a lot, and everywhere. The only thing is that thexd silenceni about it, people are t speaking about it. So its like it is not much. It is there. There is like any problem. People are not speaking about it. People need to speak. It is there. Charlie to remove whatever self chain there is. Exactly. Sometimes they say girls or women are brought to developed countries, like even to the United States, what are are people doing about it . Are we speaking about it . Let us hope and pray that there are not people are there, very important, who finance that, you know, because it is truly evil. Charlie so here sitting with me this evening, you seem to say the most important thing we can have is enormous focus from the media yes. Charlie and governments yes. Charlie with a will and commitment to return the children because you have said we talk about lost boys, its time to talk about lost girls, yes everybody talks about lost boys, lost boys. Im asking, im questioning everybody. Where are the lost girls . There are so many even among us, no one speaks about them. And were soni surprised. A woman said, sister, youve touched my life. I was one to have the lost girls. Charlie where was this . At the gala. Charlie she was one of the sex slaves . Yes. I was just in tennessee. I spoke about human trafficking. At the end of my tour. A woman came up and said, sister, what you have been talking about touched my life directly. I have been kidnapped. It touches people among us, but we dont know about them. We dont even speak about them. This i think the media could do great to high light this from time to time. Charlie and not make it tomorrows story. It is never a front story, it is not charlie do you worry about your own safety . Well, let me tell you the truth if there was any problem that my life comes to an end, it means god is telling me, now you dont have much to do, youre finished. But as i am here talking, i think god is my protector and he wants me to continue doing what i am doing, he wants me to speak on behalf to have the voiceless. Thisly say, i will not only speak, i will shout. Charlie with no fear . No fear. I have no fear. God takes care of me. My protector, my defender is god, and im totally convinced truth will set me free and truth will set many people free. Charlie i think god has a purpose for you. Here i am. Charlie before i go, i want to talk about this. This is a book called sewing hope. Joseph kony tore those lives apart, can she stitch them back together. Tell me about st. Monicas girls tailoring school. You know, st. Monicas is a tailoring school, and tailoring is just an umbrella because we teach many, many different skills, practical skills for these girls. As you can see, the cover of that book, were using a needle to sew hope. Charlie yes. That means we are sewing broken lives together, we are trying to let them continueco working, inni hope, knowing that they once considered their lives as it was ended, and i always tell them, welsc, we shall mendr life and put your life together from where it stopped. And this book actually tells a lot of story. You see the cover is sister rosemary. The book is not about me. The book is a story about these children who are talking about theirco own lives themselves, ad its very important that people try to be curious to read this book because it will get the children speaking in that book. Of course, it is painful and sometimes it becomes light, and the book talks about me with my fear and courage, which i find sometimes funny. I didnt know killing snakes, like cobras, was my strength, and in that book, it talks about it. Charlie you can kill a cobra. I killed two of them. And i didnt know that the fear i have of caterpillars charlie you fear caterpillars . Yes. Charlie why . I dont know i dont want to discuss it laughter charlie you dont want to discuss it. I dont want to discuss it. Dont take me into it it talks about how a man takes his own life, how he lost hope. And these young women in uganda, how it made him to recover from his own hopelessness because he had just lost a son due to Prescription Drug abuse. And meeting me and what im doing with the children, it brought him hope because hea3 said, if i have any sympathy with myself, ill put it aside and support the children. Charlie this is a scene from sewing hope where well see a young woman talk about being abducted by joseph kony and his lords resistance army. Here it is. Charlie thats who they are. Yeah. Thats who they are. I normally dont watch it. It pains me because im living with these young women. Im not just telling stories. Charlie when do you go back . Im going back next week. Charlie what will you do when you get back . When i go back, they keep waiting for me. They know that im coming, they know that im bringing them some work to continue with their life. They ask me, have you brought us work . Which makes me happy because theyre not asking me if i brought them money, theyre asking for work, and i have a lot of jobs. I look like a crazy woman. Charlie show us that. These are great because its changing the lives of the women and their children. Charlie made from . Pop tabs. Charlie yes, look at that. They are on the web site called sistersunited. Com in the United States. And i always tell people, look at the beauty of these and think of what theyre made of. Theyre made of what everyone would consider trash. It is just signifying these young women who are considered trash. Charlie good luck to you. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on this show. Charlie thank you. Well be back. Stay with us. Charlie lynne cheney is here. She is an historian, bestselling author and wife of former Vice President dick cheney. Her book is called James Madison a life reconsidered, the fourth president. She senses his grand accomplishments are underrated. An historian writes her book deserves to stand near the center of our early American Firm mament. Welcome, lynne cheney. A great pleasure to be here. Charlie we saw you on the Morning Program and everybody is becoming interested in James Madison. It must make you happy. I hope i can help in the effort. He has long been, i think, our most underrated president and the thought is not original with me. When john kennedy was president , he said madison was the most underappreciated of his predecessors. Charlie but you put him very high up beyond underappreciated because of his accomplishments as is suggested in the quote. I mean, you really think this is a man who was responsible for so much of what we are in terms of the ideas and beliefs that made the nation. Exactly. Washington has been called the indispensable man, but without madison, there would have been no constitution, i think you can fairly make that case, certainly no bill of rights. He was absolutely essential to the constitution underway. Then he became the first president to take the nation to war under the constitution, setting a precedent there as well. I think of all the founders, hes probably most left the impression of his mind on our lives. Charlie so why is he underappreciated . Well, maybe because he was calm and reserved. You know, we tend to you know, paradise lost. People always used to ask when i was working on my ph. D. In english, why is it the devil is more attractive than god in paradise lost . So we kind of like our rogue politicians who shock us and keep us interested. Madison was a man of great steadiness, a man who overcame adversity and studied deeply. Perhaps we dont like the more saintly of our founders as much as, but he was a great man. Charlie stature . 56 and, charlie, to me, thats tall laughter but youre right, his wife was taller than me. Jefferson was over 6 feet, washington was over 6 feet. Someone observed at one of the Virginia Conventions, madison may have been the shortest person there. But he was very fit. One of the people at the Virginia Convention in 1776, when virginia was writing its constitution after the break from england was becoming apparent, someone there wrote how fit he was and how steady his gaze was, and Thomas Jefferson said he had a most communing presence. Charlie ommanding presence. Charlie Dolly Madison became well known in her own right. He saw her on the streets of philadelphia, fell in love with her. Of all people, he asked aaron byrd to arrange an introduction. He did and they were married shortly thereafter. It was one of the great political marriages. It would be then what dollys skill was was to bring people together and make them feel warm and congenial and appreciate her husband. In those days, the congress, the caucuses of the congress, chose the president ial nominees. So theres contemporary testimony as to how dollys ability toni bring people togetr helped her husband become the president ial nominee. Charlie he was secretary of state to Thomas Jefferson who was his longtime friend. Yes, it was a friendship of many years. They had first known one another when madison known one another well, served on the council of state in virginia. All the Government Entities trying to keep the nation going while we were breaking from britain. But they got to know one another then, and it was a friendship that lasted through life and, at the end of it, jefferson wrote to madison and said, please take care of me when im dead. And by that he meant, you know, take care of my reputation, guard my reputation. Jefferson was a little bit flamboyant in his speaking ways. You know, he would say things madison said he would say things with a great round o, meaning he often said things madison had to kind of charlie were there a lot of letters between them . Yes, a threevolume set of the jeffersonmadison letters, and its one of the great stories. Charlie and who was the more who was the better writer . Jefferson, probably. He did have a gift for flowing rhetoric. Madison was the more centered of the two. Jefferson would come up with proposals that were outlandish, such as revising the government every 19 years. He decided 19 years was the time of a generation and no generation should have to live under the government of charlie so they would have a Constitutional Convention every 19 years. Exactly. And madison pointed out the dangers to stability. Madison was so intent on getting a stable country established because, under the articles of confederation, the country was, you know, a wreck, a mess. Charlie what was his relationship to Alexander Hamilton . They were rivals. They didnt know it until hamilton became treasury secretary and began making really expansive proposals for the federal government. Hamilton believed that anything that was within the realm of general welfare was something that congress could act upon. Madison, who had been at the Constitutional Convention the whole time, whereas hamilton just dropped in and out, madison knew that what the framers had done was create a government of very limited powers, enumerated and limited powers. So the two of them came to a parting of the ways on this issue. On hamiltons side was washington, and on madisons was jefferson. Charlie and jefferson and hamilton often had the different idea of what america ought to look like. Exactly. Charlie when these people do they have a sense of their own greatness . Well, i think they had a sense of what an amazing opportunity this was to change the course of human kind, to make history. And they wanted to do a very good job of making history because they all had this concept that one form of immortality was fame by that, they didnt mean being a rock star, they meant affecting posterity so that your contribution lasted for a long time. Charlie as secretary of state, what were his achievements . Well, he was secretary of state duryn the Louisiana Purchase. Charlie thats a pretty good achievement. And he helped convince jefferson it was constitutional. Jefferson kept worrying the Louisiana Purchase wasnt constitutional. Heni worried so long it looked like napoleon might pull back the off, which helped get jefferson get on board. But madison said, you have treaty power, the federal government can certainly acquire land. Charlie i wonder why napoleon did it . Why did he sell it . One thing that happened was that french troops had been slaughtered in san domingo. That had been the french entry point to north america. Two things kept that from being successful and, in fact, made it a disaster, oneni was yellow fer which decimated the ranks of the french troops in san domingo and the other was to st. Loverture, who was a slave. The slaves declared themselves free. They fought so hard to keep their freedom. Eventually through subterfuge, napoleon got toussaint captured and put in a prison. But it was yellow fever and 500,000 people who didnt want to be slaves again. Charlie how long did madison live . He died at 86. Charlie he lived long, didnt he . It was amazing. They knew how to take care of themselves. I think its the same today in many ways. If you make it past a certain age, you know, your longevity is assured more than for most people. But they understood the importance of exercise. They understood the importance of, you know, not eating too much, not drinking too much. Charlie and the foods then didnt have all the kind of substances we have now with all the sugar thats part of our diet. Thats true, but when i go to montpelier and look at it, i suppose the food had problems. They didnt have refrigeration. They had dysentery frequently. Charlie what was the regret of madisons life . Slavery. He hated slavery. Charlie born having slaves. Yes, going back three generations. He knew it was wrong, lamented it but couldnt figure out how to get out of it. If you freed your slaves, they couldnt stay in virginia. That was a law in virginia. Neighboring states said they couldnt come there. At the end of his life, madison and other great men of the early period, john marshall, for example, formed a society to colonize free slaves to liberia. The problem was the slaves had grown up in the United States. They didnt want to go live in liberia. But you kind of see madison clinging to this idea and just hoping it will help somehow. But he died. Charlie did madison and jefferson talk about this in letters . About slavery, i cant recall their talking about it in letters. Charlie jefferson obviously accepted slavery. He did. Where you see it in madisons letters are to other people, mostly, where he talks about well, during the revolution, there was a plan to give every person who enlist add slave. And madison fully objected to that. Were fighting a revolution for human freedom and it would make more sense to enlist slaves as soldiers. Charlie and his great am base biggs beyond and his great ambition beyond slavery was what . The union. The notion that we could have a great extended country that was a republic where private rights would be protected. People always thought this was impossible, that you could only have Representative Government or a republic within a very small dominion where everyone thought and believed alike. Madison thought that was fiction, you were never going to get that, and an extended republic would have so many different interests at work no one of them could become dominant. Charlie how big is the federallest papers . Its huge. Its perhaps the most significant piece of political writing from the early republic. It was written at breakneck speed, which, you know, i loving knowing that because they were so smart that they were still writing the conclusion when the printer was setting the first part of it. Madison did the equivalent of writing a tenpage paper every day for over a month and, you know, it became immortal. They were an amazing set of fellows. Charlie was that a proud achievement of his . The federalist papers, yes. But one of the things i like to point out is his modesty. When jefferson died, he had a cinitaph over his grave where he described his great accomplishments. Charlie it did not list being president. Thats correct. Madison didnt even have a burial marker. Ive often speculated, if he had had one and he were to list his greatest accomplishments, i think it would be certainly the constitution of the United States and the bill of rights, but it would also be an absolute commitment to intellectual freedom that he carried throughout his life. Charlie heres my other question about this is that george bush, 43, often said its too early to know how his administration would be judged and they were still writing books as george washington, at which at last count there were a huge amount. Sam thing is true about so many of the Founding Fathers. Here you come along and write a book with good reviews, people citing it as one of the best understandings of madison. Whats new . Are they new sources . Do you have access to Different Things other historians have not had . Well, there is some truth to the latter fact. Charlie its not like , no no, but madison had a wayward stepson, a young man who gambled and drank and womanized who began to take papers out of montpelier and sell them. So youd uncataloged madison papers and i have a friend on the eastern13 that are important. Now, they werent shaping for the book, but there is a manuscript at Princeton Library thats not been published that was very important. Charlie how good a politician was he . Terrific. I mean, absolutely. I am so impressedco when i think of what he accomplished with the bill of rights. He Read Everything that had ever been submitted as possible amendments to the constitution. His friends didnt want it to go through the congress. His enemies were determined it wouldnt go through, and he was very savvy and got it through. Charlie his relationship to john adams . John adams, that was fraught. John adams, of course, was president when alien and tradition acts were passed. It was an interesting thing. People didnt understand that there could be a legitimate opposition. They fought the revolution, had a government, and, so, if you opposed it, so the thinking went, you must be a traitor of some kind, and that way of thinking led et to the se digs n acts which made it a crime to criticize someone in public office. Madison thought in a republic you needednr opposition, and particularly understood thatq3 interpreting the constitution. Madison came up with the philosophical basis for a Political Party and took steps to get it organized. It was that Political Party charlie evolution in madisons thinking about a strong central government. Absolutely. In the beginning, at the Constitutional Convention, he was so worried about the states and what they were doing to personal freedom, coining money, taking peoples property awbie the articles of confederation were remarkably unsuccessful, so madison thought we needed a strong central government. When he saw hamilton in action, though charlie not that strong. Exactly, that it changed, it wasnt the states, it was this overwhelming government and thats when limited government became clear. Charlie you discovered he had epilepsy. Exactly. Thats the manuscript i was talking about at princeton. People have known about it but no ones ever really taken it seriously. Madison wasnt a fellow who used words lightly, so when he said he had sudden attacks somewhat resembling epilepsy that suspended the intellectual functions, i decided he needed to be taken seriously. So i spend a lot of times looking at when these attacks probably happened. I spent a lot of time talking to epilepsy experts. I didnt want to wander into this territory with any liberal arts training, you know, i got some real medical people involved, and its pretty clear he had complex partial seizures. Charlie what does dick cheney think about madison. He loves madison. Charlie did he read the book chapter by chapter . He read parts charlie is he an editor for you . Do you ask him to look at it when you finish a chapter . Not really. He looked at it when it was all neatly put together. Charlie can you look at the Founding Fathers on any kind of liberalconservative spectrum in. It is. Charlie most people would think jefferson because of his fierce defense of absolute freedom belonged on the left and madison belonged on the left. The party that they both belonged to and that madison founded was called the democraticrepublican party. This has caused so much confusion over the years. It in so many ways is like the republicanni party in believingn little government, in low taxes, in low debt, but, inni fact, its the pret seasesser of the democratic party. So this is just to illustrate some of the confusion. Charlie when you look back at all these people, what was the most surprising thing you found beyond the epilepsy in terms of the relationships among them . I mean, im really fascinated by the idea of these men because we now look back and think that they were all geniuses and all great men, but often greatness comes when you have a great opportunity, and this is clearly what happened in the founding of a nation that stood as the longest democracy and cop idea around the world after the founding of i decided there were secrets of success to be learned from madison. One secret of success is be modest. Now, this wont work in politics if you have a lot to be modest about, but his gifts were just bound to shine through and then being modest and nice just burnshed his reputation, so thats one. Another is dont let the perfect be the enemy of the possible. He didnt think the constitution was quite the document that we needed, but he reconciled himself and was key to ratifying it. But my favorite one is marry well, which he did with dolly. That was a veryni good choice. And a last one is be lucky. He was very fortunate in the time in which he was born, which is your point. Charlie right. The gifts he had, had he been born 50 years earlier, 50 years later wouldnt have been as historychanging as they were at charlie now, he got to know jefferson because of virginia politics or yes. Charlie virginia politics. And they didnt live so far apart. 30 miles, basically. Charlie didnt he go to work for jefferson . When Jefferson Charlie in 28 or something . When jefferson was governor, madison served on the council of state, sort of like the cabinet. Charlie after jefferson left the presidency, what was the relationship between the two of them . Well, jefferson was always free with his advice and this is what made jefferson such an interesting friend. When he was in paris, he was quite sure he knew what the Constitutional Convention should be doing. Hes across the ocean and months apart in terms of communication, but he never hesitated to offer his advice. Charlie what happened when washington burned . Well, madison whom some people have said was sickly and i tried to show it wasnt true in the book, madison spent years on horse back, he was 63 years old, rallying the troops, he road into the battle. He retreated to washington. Had to go across the river. There is a wonderful description of going up the virginia side of the potomac and looking out and seeing, you know, the flames burning the government buildings of the city. Charlie let me talk a little bit about you and Politics Today and your husband today. Obviously, all the questions i need to ask about him, i can ask him, not you. Oh, but i would be happy to try. Charlie was the last four years of the Bush Administration meaningful for him . Sure. Charlie i mean, because he said to me that it wasnt like the first four. No, no. And i think theres no doubt about that. You know, relationship change and shift and the president runs his white house the way he wants to. Charlie which means he makes the changes he wants to make. Exactly. Charlie and clearly his chief of staff was the hardest thing for him, the fact that he was convicted. Oh, scooter, yes. Charlie almost the hardest thing he had. Its one of the great personal disappointments because this is a fine man, who you know, got caught up in what i call the politics of personal destruction and has suffered for that. So, yes, thats a great regret. Charlie that became, in a sense, part of the it was a straining it strained the relationship. Absolutely. Dick thought scooter should be pardoned, and the president , in the end, decided not to. Charlie and your daughter ran for the senate. She did. Charlie and decided to withdraw. She did. She just had some difficulties in her family, some really not little ones and sheni thought she just could not continue her charlie niccn her family meaning children. Charlie her children. Mmhmm. Charlie also, there was a little bit of a pgbnic conflict with her sister . Thats true. I mean, its an interesting family we have. Charlie i was going to say. But my impression also is that you and the Vice President have always been great and up front in terms of mary and her choices and respect for her choices and in a sense have always argued for it was up to the states to decide things like exactly, but dick just made that wonderful statement in 2000 in a debate with joexd lieberman when asked about having a gay daughter and gay marriage and so on and he said, freedom means freedom for everyone. People should be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want. When it comes to legal issues, its up to the states to decide. And, you know, thats where madison would be, actually. This is not a power of the federal government. Charlie whats your next book . Im not sure. This decade of the 1790s is so interesting simply because of the turmoil, the vituperation were even greater, i think, than in our own time. And i think it was to create the strong country we have today. Charlie the jefferson and madison campaigns were some of the roughest and toughest in terms of accusations and accusations of all kinds of slanderous conduct. It would make anything we see now look reasonably mild, dont they . Well, of course, the paper james calendar a famous scandalmonger published a rumor first that hamilton was speculating, he was giving money to this man to speculate, and that was a great charge because hamilton was secretary of the treasury. So hamilton took charge of his own defense, usually a mistake, and wrote a pamphlet that said i am not a speculator, im an adulterer. I was giving this fellow money because i was sleeping with his wife to keep him quiet. The more things change. Charlie did i hear you say you thought the release of this Monica Lewinsky thing was something you attributed to the clintons or what . No, i specifically said i cant imagine vanity fair publishing an article that mrs. Clinton didnt think was okay. Charlie meaning that carter wouldnt publish an article that he didnt think she wouldnt like . Yes. Charlie why do you think that . Well, hes been her great supporter all these long times charlie hes a pretty intrepid editor. Well, if you are of my persuasion charlie what is your persuasion . Im a conservative, and you dont think vanity fair is exactly broadminded. Charlie yeah. And it makes sense. Charlie he was very much against the war. He was, but his relationship with president clinton may be not as warm as his relationship with mrs. Clinton. Hes been her longtime supporter, and, if you think about it, it is so smart to get this out of the way now. Rand paul, for example, has been bringing it up. Charlie all the time, yeah. And it is an issue. Youco know, Sexual Harassment is such a thing in our society now. Charlie is it an issue for her or him. Rand paul is quite certain its an issue for her. Charlie why is that . Im not sure, exactly, i understand. I guess that maybe she should have taken a stronger stand against it. But in any case charlie the problemmive with that, that kind of argument with anybody is you never really know how strong someone acted within the confines of their own privacy. But you know well, this is such an issue now for feminists and rightly so, the idea of power relationships, a 21yearold intern and, what, a 50somethingyearold president of the United States. This is the classic example of power being used in an inappropriate way. Charlie why do you think america seems to have forgiven the president . Because hes such a genial fellow. We talked about milton. Hes a really likable person. Charlie some says its because he had been a good president. In some ways, he was. Charlie and the economy was doing well. Thats it. Its the economy, i think, that was the main thing that people look at when they think of those years and what was good about them. But, still all right, call me old fashioned, im appalled at the idea of the disparity in age and status, and i think that, you know, most feminists would be, but they want to support hillary, too. Charlie say that again . I think most feminist are appalled at the disparity in age and status but also very much want to support hillary who never spoke out and said, you know, this was Sexual Harassment and wrong. Now, maybe its too much to expect, but that is a kind of expectation, i think, in the air. Charlie do you think shell have to address this . Well, not if we get it out of the way with the vanity fair article. Charlie the idea is to get this past her now and it not be an issue . Well, you can then declare it old news, again. Charlie tell me, give me a sketch of what you and im just asking you, not that you reflect your husbands point of view, do you disagree with many things . No. It would be so much more interesting if we did, but we have been married almost 50 years. We met each other in high school. Weve kind of grown together. Charlie dick cheney had a rough beginning, i dont mean by poverty, but he was in and out of college. He was in and out of jail. Charlie he was in and out of jail . We shouldnt hold that against him, should we . Well, when he was 18 and 21, i very much held it against him. Charlie you did . But i didnt say in so many words but indicated in many ways that, you know, we couldnt get married until he turned into a responsible person. Charlie you made him a responsible person . You basically demanded that he become no, i just basically indicated that this wasnt my way. Charlie and you think also, i was so angry with him because he had so many gifts and, you know, i knew what an amazing person he was, and he was squandering them. Charlie you know, the country looks at the iraqi war and clearly thats an issue. Just look what happened to condoleezza rice. Well, thats ridiculous. Charlie i believe so, as well, that people ought to be allowed to speak. But condi is a role model in so many ways. Charlie yes. But does that Say Something to you about how so many of, especially young people, feel about that war . My impression is this wasnt an uprising on the part of half the student body at rutgers, it was an uprising by a couple of leftwing professors and some students who followed them like lemmings. It was not the kind of thing thought in the 60s. Charlie but the university should have been able to withstand that, shouldnt it . Exactly, thats the point. Charlie if it was just a couple of professors and a couple of students. One would think. And, in fact, condi herself decided it would be too disruptive. For so long, right after desert storm, dick gave the commencement speech at my alma mater. Charlie where would that be . Colorado college. It was great and the kids all loved him. As soon as he stood up to speak, the entire faculty stood up and turned their backs on him. This was the end of desert storm. So this gives you the idea our campuses in all too many instances become places where groups of people who are out of the main stream gain an amount of power over the agenda of that institution that they shouldnt have. Charlie the book is called James Madison a life reconsidered. Lynne cheney. Thank you. Thank you. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org a, athena, at n. This is nightly business report, with Tyler Mathisen and susie gharib. Brought to you in part by. Thestreet. 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