Silver, people were wondering how is he going to step up, was he going to hit this guy hard enough and he hit him with everything he had. Rose most of my programs this evening is devoted to the canonization over the week owned of two popes, pope john xxiii and Pope John Paul ii. This has led to focus on the chat lick church. Are you worried people are not talking about other religion and other churches. It is wrong, it is francis, it is changed. All religion. Is that right. One of the things theyre excited about are his message. Hes lifting up again to the whole world once again the idea that you can actually live together in peace, the whole world. Hes trying to change the world of religion being the cause of division and animosity to its true purpose of bringing together. And hes successful. People from different faiths, im sure they are doing the same thing you stop me and say and coming along with a patriarch of an orthodox church, hes going to jerusalem. Youre telling me. Where hes going to meet the art dock patriarch. My jewish neighbors in new york are estatic about these as are the orthodox. And the message around the world. The presumption today is that people should live in peace. Thats a presumption being created. That peace is expected and the presumption thats ordinary. Its interesting when you use those two words about him, i would love to hear what words you would do, sincerity and simple. When people ask me across the world, what is it hes got. I say theres no agenda there, simplicity and sincerity. What you see is what you get. I would agree with that completely. He doesnt have a new message, hes just showing everybody been to do it. Its not a gospel, this is the way you do it. And thats why people all around the world are saying, this is wonderful. You dont complicate simple. I didnt ask for this. A beautiful sermon today that could be given by a parish priest. Its what any of us would a prepared. Even the way he does it, at the podium like youre in your parish and you just get up and you say what you want to say. By the way, hes kind of short, brief. Rose race in the nba and a canonization in rome when we continue. Theres a saying around here you stand behind what you say. Around here, we dont make excuses, we make commitments. And when you cant live up to them, you own up and make it right. Some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where its needed most. But i know youll still find it, when you know where to look. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose today Donald Sterling was caught making racist statements and he was charged with 2. 5 million fine. Adam silver announced at a decision at a press conference this afternoon. Effective immediately, i am banning mr. Sterling for life from any association with the Clippers Organization or the nba. Mr. Sterling may not attend any nba games or practices. He may not be present at any clippers facility and he may not participate in any business or player personnel decisions involving the team. Im also finding mr. Sterling 2. 5 million, the maximum amount allowed under the nba constitution. Rose donald stirring is the longest tenure owner. It comes as they play the Golden State Warriors tonight in the first of the nba playoffs. Theres no one better to come talk about this event which is much more than about sports but im pleased to have mike lupica here. Assess this for me. Help me understand the larger conthink adam silver performed brilliantly. I thought this was a tremendous day for adam silver sports and professional sports. Were always trying to see where sports fits in society, you know. Even though Jackie Robinson when he ran out to first base in 1947 didnt just change baseball, he changed the country. And even though Billy Jean King was one of the great Women Leaders this country ever produced we all kind of step back sometimes and say sports world versus real world. But this today was an example of how a true leader and this is a guy whose only been on this job for three months showed that you dont have to have experience to show passion, anger, character and do the right thing. And i really think that add unsilver, people were wondering how is he going to step up. Was he going to hit this guy hard enough and he hit him with everything he had. Rose he seemed to wait until he made sure what he wanted to say and then said it. Charlie when you came out you could see he was spitting mad. When he talked about how out raged he was and these hateful comments you knew nothing good was going to come for Donald Sterling and then he banishes him for life. We thought it would be a one year suspension. This is a lawyer. He clerked for kimble wood in manhattan and she says he was brilliant then. But what i was struck by today, this wasnt just the lawyer in adam silver. This was the humanity in adam silver. He reacted to this the way you reacted to this the way we reacted when we heard these tapes and saw these comments. Rose this is what lebron jail said today. Thank you for protecting our league. Youre a greater leader bigger than basketball. Duane way what a way to take charge and protect our league. Mark had said some things about slippery slopes before. He said i agree 100 with silvers finding and actions taken against Donald Sterling. A couple more here i wanted to read. Manic johnson commissioner silver showed great leadership. Seems to be universal appreciation of him for the way he stepped forward. Not just from the sport from rightthinking people. These comments werent just an attack on blacks playing basketball they were an attack on all blacks. They were offensive to decentminded people. Because you know, however many years it is since Jackie Robinson. 1954 is brown versus board of even cake. The civil rights the voting acts is 1964. So all this time later. Im not shocked that people still think this way but i was heartened by the way the country reacted to this. Because you know, Donald Sterling became the most famous guy, you know how that happens. One new cycle after another. But i thought the reaction of the country, the outrage from the country was tremendously inspired. Rose was immediate and essentially overwhelming that this is unacceptable and get rid of the guy. You know Michael Jordan doesnt like to get involved in political and i thought his statement over the weekend. He was really the first owner to come out. Not only is he speaking as one of the great Team Athletes that this country ever produced, hes now speaking as a member of that club that now wants to kicking sterling out. Theres going to be a fight. He will be dragged kicking and screaming. Im told he passed up a deal today where he could have handed it over to his wife and walked away. I dont think he wants to walk away. Hes an attention hound. Hes been a clown for a long time. Rose its an interesting point. Hes been all this for a long time. Now is this simply the first time anybody put it on tape and put it out there or did everybody know that he was a man who thought the way he did . One of the thing that was referenced today was elgin baylor sued him for age discrimination and Racial Discrimination and he pulled back from the racial stuff okay. People wanted to know why didnt the league do something. Well he lost that case. He lost that case. So rose belgind. Yes. What impressed me was he didnt go back to prosecute the past he prosecuted this offense. He did it swiftly and i think he did it honorably. I think people who watched him today really wanted to stand up and cheer at the end of this because he did take the lead. We always say this is why these guys get the big bucks. And three months into this, he got this thing fell into his lap and gob smacked him the way it gob smacked us over the weekend. We wanted to see if he could step up and he did. Rose does it become in a sense a reminder to all of us what is present in American Life and that therefore we have to be more vigilant in making sure we get it out. Oh sure. Rose might it produce a dialogue about race. Every time Something Like this happens, we hear that theres going to be a dialogue about race in america. That dialogue seems to last until the next new cycle and even everybody moves on, okay. One of the things youre hearing about this, one of the side issue is well he said this in private. And i thought that silver slam dunked that notion today. Well its public now. Rose the point is other sports leagues sports owners are paying attention to this and asking do i have the same kind, at any point in my organization racism so pronounced. Truly it will. Its like a signal to everybody in sports, we cannot take this stuff for granted. Charlie an exnba player and very good one sent me a text today and said now the question is who is sterling going to take down with him. What does he know about whats happened in the old boys club. What does he know about whats happened in that room. Its astonishing when you think about it. Hes the guy because he has such seen seniority whose been vetting the new owners. Rose as to whether theyre appropriate for the league before they come in. Whether they were appropriate for the league. Rose theres also this. I think it was jeff but i may be wrong who said anybody who thinks hes the only incident of this kind of thing in the league is wrong. Oh, without a doubt. And youve got on the other side of this, youve got players who routinely use the n word, okay. And so there is, the rules seem to be often on this subject seem to be different for whites and black. As i said to a friend of mine who raised that issue today, we are constantly rewriting the rules in america. And by the way, people who dont keep up with the rule book are destined to take the kind of fall Donald Sterling took today. Rose thank you for coming. Its good to be here. Rose mike lupica sports writing for the new york daily news. Back in a moment, stay with us. I was in rome over the weekend for the canonization of two popes. Arrived on saturday and went to st. Peters square for people to be arriving to be part of this historic day in the life of the Roman Catholic church. Never before have two former posts been canonized. These men are the best known popes one had a short tenure, pope john xxiiird and Pope John Paul the second. Anticipation for the historic day was building. We talked about Delia GallagherSenior Editor for inside the vatican magazine. Theres great anticipation when you walk around and excitement whats going to happen at this mass. Rose whats the significance . Well, i think there are a number of significant things about it. But i think it boils down to the fact that these two hopes are loved by the people. They are the original peoples popes. Pope john xxiii before Pope John Paul ii and pope francis was the one who came after a pope pius the 12th who was regal and academic and aristocratic and john xxiii was short stout called the peasant pope and people say whats he going to do. Rose and then called the good pope. Then called the good pope. And why . Because he came out and could talk to the people and he came out and he was the one who went to the hospitals and visit sick children. He was the one who went first to prisons and visited prisoners. So the thing that we see pope francis doing today he started. Rose theres a touch of pope john xxiii and pope francis. He loves him. It was said after cardinal was to be a runner up one of the card numbers said he said to him afterwards i would have chosen the name john had i become pope. Besides its interesting to see what happened in the meantime to change his mind but its clear he has great admiration for pope john xxiii precisely because of that personal touch but because john xxiii who was not expected to do vention was the revolutionary movement. Rose to reform the church. He was able to do both sort of important things in the church but have the common touch. Rose but then theres some resistance to vatican. And then came Pope John Paul ii somebody you knew and traveled with and covered. He was charismatic, he was exciting. But many believed him to represent the conservative wing, the opposite from john xxiii. He was conservative, he was traditional. There was one element about john paul ii that i think really mae him special in addition to his charisma which was his mysticism. He was a poet and poets are people who see differently, who believe in the invisible. And a mystic is a poet in a religious context. And i think that one thing that stood out to me with john paul ii any time he wasnt talking to anybody or doing something official he was praying. And if you walked up to him you would see him moving his rosary and moving his lips and he was always praying. And i think he really had already sort of one foot on the other side. He really lived the consent of this communion of saints and people that are in heaven helping him on earth. I think he genuinely believed in that power and people made fun of him but he believed in the power of those things. Rose after his death there was a lot of talk. Right at the funeral. Rose exactly. Which meant in latin. It meant in italian make him a saint immediately. Immediately. And actually thats the way they used to do it in the church right. They were saying the voice Office People decides who is going to be a saint. And thats why i think yes its easy to be cynical about the vatican making saints and trying to encourage catholics to devote themselves to say but really i think its about a recognition that the people want. People love these things. And john paul ii himself was one who loved saints. Rose he got fast tracked. Normally he has to wait five years before the process began. Thats a rule he himself set in motion allowing a mope to mope to decide if he didnt want to wait five years and start the process. I think benedict couldnt do anything but start the process really that early. That being said its still a formal process they go through. They have to go through all of these writings, they have to interview everybody hes ever met. They interviewed all kinds of head of states and political figures as well as his neighbors. And then of course a miracle. Its a process. Rose with john xxiii there was a miracle and they waived the requirement. Thats correct. And thats why i think pope francis is showing us there that this is a really important figure for him. Because he decided to waive that requirement for the second miracle for john xxiii. Rose we talked to monsignor ant me figuerido. He helped us understand the workings of the vatican where he works noe. Two very different men pope john xxii came from a peasant family and always remember his roots. We had john paul ii a great academic a great teacher and really loved people. I think francis wants to bring two popes into our minds who loved people. Because if the church doesnt reach people, charlie, it remains irrelevant. And i think pope francis is saying this is what really matters. Two popes who loved people and thats why i want the church to go as well. Rose how does this pope make those of you who are part of the establishment of the vatican feel . It meeks me very excited about the future of the church. And i tell you why, charlie. I think sometimes the church can be simply as an institution. Full of bureaucracies, full of institutions, full of buildings. But the church is a living entity. I think thats what someone like st. Francis believed in to rebuild my church. He wasnt talking about bricks and mortar about the institution he was talking about rebuilding the lives of people. And thats where the church needs to go. Thats why pope john xxiii went, pope john second went and pope francis is going to. Rose how does the process of saint hood work. In the case of pope john xxiii and pope john second its ordinary people. We were out in the square and people were shouting may he be a saint immediately. It was the same with john xxiii there was an air of sanctity because he was a good man and kind man. So it really begins from the grassroots but then theres a process obviously, there needs to be a process which we need to follow in order that the form certainly in terms of miracles are followed. Who decides whether that can be changed . The pope. And he has decided certainly in the case of john xxiii only one miracle is necessary. Rose so there werent two. He says thats fine well waive the necessity of another one. Actually the sanctity, charlie, the process sanctification belongs specifically to the holy father. Its an infallible teaching. It is he who decides in the end. He obviously knew these two men and he knew the order of their sanctity. We talk about the order of sanctity and said i know these two men are saints and i want them to be saints today for the church. Rose and to be a saint means what . To be a saint for me i think for many people means to persevere in the midst of great difficulties. I think we discovered this in john xxiii and john paul ii. They experienced it in their lives. John the xxiii very simple family. He went through difficulties when he was ambassador in paris and turkey, he helped jews escape. Certainly with john paul second we saw what he faced in a cultural level. In his very life through his own physical suffering. But they had the courage to go forward despite the difficulties. The church is recognizing that in them. And that gives us courage which means even the simplest person living in their homes proposes with a disabled person, perhaps with an old person perhaps with difficulties in their marriage, perhaps difficulties with their children can go forward believing that god helps them. Thats why we declare them saints. Rose at 10 00 a. M. On sunday rome time the services ban with st. Peters full. Hundreds of thousands spread along the road leading to it. Its estimated approximately a Million People came to rome for this historic event. The first hour was about the canonization. Shortly into the Service Pope Francis declared the two men saints as only a pope can do. Watching the moment was former Pope Benedict the 16th. Again an historic moment. Two popes present while two popes were canonized. After the service at the north American College i met with Cardinal Timothy dolan archbishop of new york and Cardinal Donald wuerl archbishop of washington. He called him a pope of courage and john paul ii pope of family. We know for pope francis, marriage and family is a biggie. He talks about it a lot. And you know he chose as topic for the next two bishops, hes giving those and involved in it he chose the topic of marriage and family. He declared john paul the second the patron of married couples and families recalling the extraordinary teaching, the wealth of teaching that john paul ii gave on marriage and family. I was happy to hear him say that not only because i have immense regard for the teaching of john paul ii and this beautiful notion of marriage and family but also because as you well know charlie there has been some rumors that perhaps francis is going to take a radical departure from the past and the churchs teaching on marriage and family. I think all of us have known he cant change the substance of the teaching. But yet when he referred to john paul ii as in his mind being the pope of marriage and family, i think we all thought ahh there it is again a great continuity in the teaching of the church. Theres hardly any rupture. Its a beautiful flow from jesus to the apostles down through the ages and hes continuing that. Rose this was his thing. This historic canonization was all a decision by this pope. It was. Rose to what end do you think. Well youre right in that it was his decision. And it was a surprise. Now, its no surprise that these two men are going to be saints. The surprise would be that this quickly and together. Those were the two surprises. I think, hes a good teacher. You know hes a jesuit, he himself had years in the classroom. A good teacher knows you got to give signs, you got to use teachable moments, you got to use audiovisual aids. He thought look, we all know already that one of the things pope francis wants to do is bring the church together. He said we are argue too much. We bicker too much. Weve got to give an example of love and unity and focus. And he knows shrewdly that they are somewhat called upon by different factions of the churches. Theyre patrons. John xxiii is usually cited by those who you might call more progressive and more liberal. John paul ii more conservative or traditional. No, sir characterrures are groundless and enact rut but the perception is real. But what pope francis is saying im a Bridge Builder the oldest one and oldest titles from the pope from which we give pontiff that means Bridge Builder. Im going to bring these sides together. Im going to canonize them both hold them both up for emulation and folks learn from this. Were supposed to agree on stuff. Rose and its a big church and we have room. You see those bernini reaching out for grace and bringing people in to christ and his church and thats what hes trying to do and hes doing it well. Youre a church historian, that in fact part of what john paul did is to try to undo what john xxiii had done at the second vatican. Youre right. There are those who say that. There are also who say that john xxiiii would never have envisioned some of the more radical interpretations of the consult that he inspired. So you get different historical interpretations. What we do know is that both john xxiii and john paul ii are more or less the book ends of the Second Vatican Council. John xxiii who was inspired by the holy spirit to call it sought it through the first delegate session died. John paul ii, who was there as a bishop and who implemented it during his 27 years pontifficate. And i thought john ii thought in some ways the council was being interpreted. But as far as the genius of the council and reform and rule of the consent he conc crept hs all. We use, theres a beautiful latin phrase, the church always in need of reform, okay. Always the church is being called to cleansing purification. Reform. We see that in the new testament less than a couple years after jesus went back to his father the church was having crises and people like st. Paul and st. James were calling him back this is the wrong way to go we have to remember what jesus intended. Theres always reform and renewal. The most vivid time of reform and renewal in contemporary memory would have been the Second Vatican Council 1962 to 65. And now we could be there again. Its almost like you always see charlie 50 years after a consult theres a time of turmoil and anxiety and working out what the council meant. It could be the council of of 50 years. And now 50 yearses done. Weve got a pope that says lets take a deep breath. Most of the work of implementation is done. Weve got a lot of bruised feeling and some feel the spirit on one side or the other. Thats hold up these two great popes and lets get to work. Rose is it unlikely to be changed if you open up the discussion and say why is there so much opposition to this doctrine coming up as you look forward, that somehow there might develop a different attitude. Yes, attitude could be a good word. Attitude could be a very good word to use. Now, you know what, though. When you look, youre a student of whats going on in the life of church. You dont a lot of times see a disagreement about doctrine if you talk about the trinity and the nature of jesus christ. Theyre troubled by the implications of doctrine, the interpretation of doctrine. Rose and you can change that. That you could try to change, infallibility. How far does the extend. Now here, and this is interesting, charlie, because here you got a pope that is trying to diminish in some ways the prerogatives of the papacy. He wants to emphasize hes one of us, hes the bishop of rome. But yet is leaning upon a papal prerogative and hes been waiting for centuries. He says i like peter, he was one of the founders of the jesuits. Give me a paper, hes a saint now, okay. In some ways rose my kind of guy. In some ways he says lets get this done. Doing it though i think charlie. What hes tapping into is what we call the sense of the faithful. Hes a savvy who holds his head to the ground and hes saying its almost ma miraculous thata man like john xxiii is a saint and i need to recognize that. Thats not bad hes kind of got that savvy sense about him. Rose and symbolism and all of that. Yes. Rose so hes got this cardinal that was second we believe. Thats what he said. Rose and hes selected. Of you said i knew he was a pastor but i did not know he was a rock star. So my question, did he, something happen to him when he became pope or do we simply magnify those qualities of people knew about him. What is it that has made him so much at the center of the conversation in the world in one year. You are on to Something Big time. We cardinals are not surprised in the man that we got. We can see that he listened as we were talking in those ten days before the conclave as to what we thought we needed in the next pope, hes doing it. Were not surprised hes doing it, were surprised hes doing it with such beautiful effectiveness. Now, you could be on to something. I know a fellow who is very close to jorge and he saw him at world youth day in rio rio de janero i cant expect all the viewers to share this part. For me as a man of faith theres something called the carism of office, carism being a free gift from god to give the grace of somebody to carry a burden. And i think hes got it. We need somebody. If he didnt have the acclaim, popularity that hes got, i dont know if he would be able to be as effective. Rose and the reinforces you. As some people say the office makes the man or woman and in some case the man or woman meeks the office not speaking about religious but speaking about institution. Theres the impact of the office changing the person or the person changing the office. Hes doing a little bit of both. Hes risen to the occasion. But i think this is what youre getting at. Hes not allowed himself to become a captive of the papacy. Thats a big temptation. Theres a massive infrastructure. The minute, i told you the story, havent i. Rose i dont know. The day after he was elected, protocol is his first mass is the Sistine Chapel at the college of cardinals. We cardinals go in vest. Hes not one of us anyone. We see the side room where hes the vest. He comes in carrying his alb to wear and the handlers about a dozen of them surround him and say holy father you vest over here. He says ill vest with the cardinals. He sits down two from me and starts to vest. They crowd around him telling him what he needs to do at mass. He with a gracious smile says fathers thanks, please stay close but ive been saying mass for 50 years, i know what im doing. In other words, ill be okay. Rose yes, you told me that before. Theres an example in a very simple way of saying, if i need you ill call. Im sure grateful youre there. Rose theres also this. A persons capacity to rise may very well be in part produced by the need of people. They recognize that someone reflects what they have been yearning for. You know a case could be made that Jorge Bergoglio which is one of the more calculated ises in the world say they have been blessed and have done a stellar job reclaiming the truth of doctrine. Bravo, thank god theyve done it. Now i can kind of rereassert the tender merciful embracing side. He would be the first to say john paul ii and John Benedict can do that as well. I can do a balancing act working on the accomplishments they did and reasserting the churching theological doctoral and spiritual riches. Now i can say lets keep that and keep the mat up and lets work on the tender merciful embrace inside. Rose its much more of the pastor of the beauty of love. I think our friend, you know john allen said it well and hes the worlds parish priest e you know we cant sell john paul ii. We think of john paul in his last 11 years when he was fragile. Remember he starved the world when he was visiting parishes going out and meeting people all over the place when he traveled the globe. He turned the office of the successor of peter the pope from the ceo of the Church Universal to the worlds pastor. Bill graham said hes the worlds pastor. And i think francis is recovering that. Rose heres the question. Does growing sense of him at the center of world conversation whether its income inequality whether it has to do the relationship between intolerance for people and opinions and all of that. Theres also the question of the pope as a principal explainer of value who looks at Pope John Paul ii did at the time of the fall of communism. Yes, and played a row. The church plaiqqyes. Rose is the pope prepared to play a role. I think he is. Rose on the political stage of the world. I think he is. The popes coinage, he has no currency to flow, no troops to send no borders to protect. His coinage is simple values, true, beauty and goodness. This pope while he does everything to try to diminish what you might call the clout of the papacy, its now sky rocketed under him. Why . Because hes returning to what the church does best. Values. Human dignity. The sacredness of human life. The defense of the voiceless. Hes returning to that and his stock goes way up. And now hes becoming a major layer. Rose the more your stock goes up the more influence and leverage you have on a range of issues you might not have if you had not connected to the world. Sure, sure. Rose might you speak out on ukraine . Yes, i think he would. Now theres always when the pope speaks out you always got kind of the moral cerebral ideal. Hes done that already, a call for dialogue, lets respect things. Does a pope get more pointed. Sometimes in the past popes have. Remember john paul in the croasia serbia. If you get involved in the intricacies you could end up hurting us and thats what the pope always always has to weigh. I get it sometimes when i travel. If i go to india, if i go to africa, ill let one bishop come in and say you dolan are the archbishop of new york, you were as my base in the conference we need you to go home and speak out loudly about the persecutin were under going. The next bishop says please dont say anything because it could get worse and you dont know what to do. You say i want to listen to both of my brothers here and the pope magnifies that by a thousand and thats why you got the pope hearing every day. It takes a man of prayer and prudence and listening to know what to do. Rose is it hard to imagine that this mope might accomplish. Remember when john xxiii was the same age when he was elected. He says i dont have much time so lets get going. Within two months after his election he summoned the council. I doubt francis is going to do that but i think francis knows, i think francis knows that his time i hope, i say it at the top of my voice he want him to reign as long as possible. Hes a practical man who says im going to take it day by day but theres a sense of urgency here. Rose thank you. Thank you charlie. Glad youre in rome. Rose im happy to be in rome any time. I say that too. Rose im saying it to my companion. Not bad. Thank you charlie. Its good to be with you. Rose pleasure. Rose this was an historic day were unlikely to see again. What are the chances in the lifetime of anyone moving into the future that there would be a pope, a retired pope sitting together at a canonization of two popes both of whom reigned in the lifetime of many of the people who were in that square. This is not just an historic moment its a unique moment thats not going to be replicated. Rose what does it represent. I says what it says to the world is the discourse of today is being focused by those four human beings, those four popes. The whole, beginning with john xxiii peace on worth and all through the pontiff jcate of john paul ii we should life together in most we should find fellowship and face an interminute cull relationship and now you have pope francis repeating it in the presence of benedict. Maybe it will be the historian a hundred years from now that will confirm this. Whats happened is the whole discourse, human discourse where the presumption is wedjhould be be at peace. The presumption is we should respect one another and live together. Thats all new. Thats all new in Human History as were seek it unfold today. Rose so conflict is not necessarily what we should assume. We should assume peace and dialogue and understanding. Yes. And respect and tolerance. Tolerance doesnt that come across all of what francis was saying. Its also a big part of john paul ii. If you are going to have a world full of people coming out of different ethnic traditions, different faith traditions, different experiences, living together, then shouldnt pluralism have as a component part. Rose now its being characterized and im asking a question here, john paul conservative, john xxiii more liberal. On the other hand some people say that it was john xxiii who spoke so much to francis. I think what is there is a continuity. John started the council owned the Second Vatican Council. The paul that somehow when you start to take a fresh look at how the gospel is being presented, john paul the second spent almost 27 years going all over the world trying to do that. And the message was always the same remember that god loves you and you can have a relationship with god. And on outcome francis who smiles like john xxiii but who has a message very much like john paul ii, a message of peace, a message over we need to find dialogue, we need to find communication. And what captures it all for me, and this is like a capstone, is francis is simply saying heres how you do it. Rose he seems to be a man who comes to the papacy with a sense of urgency, number one. Hes 76, 7, 8. 8. Rose comes with a sense of urgency and secondly comes with a sense of being unafraid to challenge the church where he thinks it needs to be challenged. I think thats a absolutely true. I think how he is able to do that is he is deeply rooted spiritually and hes deeply immersed in the tradition of the church. So he has a 2000 year tradition out of which he speaks. And he seems to be so comfortable in that tradition. And has a freedom, a freedom that only comes when interiorly youre at peace with god and yourself. Rose but the church is also in its working a political place. There are people who debate each other within the church. And he seems to welcome that. I think thats one refreshing sign. What hes saying is we need, we need to be looking all of us, we need to be looking and seeing whats, what each one of us experiencing in the presence of gods spirit in our lives. And how does it relate to the received tradition, the received message, the gospel. Theres parameters. But at the same time hes encouraging everybody to examine how are we doing this. Rose you have a very powerful job, as you know. I mean youre the person who is going to help select the new bishops. You help define the church by the people that you and others select. How do you handle that . Well, one of the things that pope said to us, he came to a meeting of the conjugation. He says i will assume they are well prepared theologically. I presume, you need to presume as well when you look at their background that they are well presented and they have to have the spirit of a pastor. I think those of us who grew up in parishes where there was a priest who simply cared for the people. Thats what comes to mind. So hes asking not that we change the face of the church but that the rose if youre changing the future of the church youre changing the future of the church. Changing the direction of it. Rose they will choose the future church. But isnt that what john xxiii said when he called the council . And you mentioned earlier and i think youre right on target there. Theres a continuity between john xxiii and francis. That continuity includes all those popes in between that have refined the message. Rose whats going to be hardest for francis to i thing challenge keeping the phone actual going and keeping everybody together and on board. What hes trying to do is what john xxiii called the upaiding of the church. And francis seems to have taken that to heart. We have to find a way of getting the pleaj out. He said something that i find really beautiful. He said the message is not that complicated. I think thats what hes saying to us. Rose who is opposed to him in the church . I dont know if theres opposition to him. Rose go slow, go different. But any time you begin to refocus, that means that there are for some, theres some things out of focus. And the goal of this pope is to help all of us refocus on the needs of the poor so there can be universal peace. When you start doing that, you challenge everybody to refocus their lens a bit. And that can be hard. Rose but also there are issues that have made Church Attendance declining. Why is that . Well, i think you have to put that in the larger perspective. Rose religion. Yes. The great culture shift. Im talking now about the whole western world. Weve watched a cultural revolution, a social revolution, the sexual revolution, an economic revolution. All of these things have been woven together since the 60s. And the result has been a heavy heavy emphasis on the secular as if issues are really all about whats going on right now. Along comes a series of popes that we just canonized and one who does it very well today francis saying folks, theres more. Theres more. What im hearing and seeing certainly in the arch diocese of washington, lots of young people saying you know what francis is saying touches me, what francis is saying rings a bell, touches a cord. The message again isnt a different message. Were familiar with the message but now were saying you know, theres a credibility to this. Because he lives it. Rose what do you make of the quote that hes made when he says who am i to judge. What does that say . I think it says rose there are more questions the church judges. The church judges because god has placed a law in our hearts. Its been articulated in the commandments and jesus said this is the way you should live. You should be merciful, you should be compassionate you should give drink to the thirsty. There is already a moral law. The pope is saying im not going to go around and make judgments about where you stand in relation to that law, you should be making that judgment. And you should be addressing in your own heart how do i relate to god. How do i relate to my neighbor in a way that reflects what god calls us. Rose before judging you should judge yourself. Isnt that what jesus imhimself said. Dont judge lest you be judged. We are called to look at that form. Rose how has that changed. Women in the church. Abortion. Same sex marriage. Clearly there will be change in terms of how the church comes down hard on predatory sexual abuse, i assume. But will all these things change significantly because of this pope . I dont think were going to see so much change in something say for example as abortion. Some things are absolutely intrinsic to our human experience. And my right to life is absolutely intrinsic to who i am as a human being because it doesnt come from anybody else but god. We even say that in our own founding documents in the united states. We have these inalienable rights. Thats not going to change. But one of the things that i think is to be more compassionate with people who have found themselves in situations. Rose how about this. To find out why so many people seem, why these issues seem to be so divisive and to find out why there is so much push back on the church doctrine. One of the reasons why i believe is because there is so strong another current out there. Is secular current that is the dominant voice in our Society Today doesnt see these specific values that were talking about. And so theres always going to be push back. And remember, every disciple lives in the midst of the world where disciples and citizens at the same time. So were hearing all this influence around us and thats why we keep going to church to keep hearing what did jesus say. What should be my response through a secular world that says no, no, this is the way you should do it. Rose and he seems to have said look i understand these things but theyre there but my immediate effort here is to remove and engage in the pastoral role. He said so clearly, hasnt he, before you get into all these areas where theres contention, shouldnt we start by inviting people to come to know god in the first place. And if you come to know god you realize youre loved. God is love and he sent his son into our world to show us what love is all about. Francis message is very simple. Start with knowing youre loved. There are a lot love people on this planet who have never experienced that. Rose thank you. Youre welcome, youre welcome. Thank you. Good to be with you. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org man its like holy mother of comfort food. Ion. Woman throw it down. Its noodle crack. Patel you have to be ready for the heart attack on a platter. Crowell okay, im the bacon guy. Man oh, i just did a jig every time i dipped into it. Man 2 it just completely blew my mind. Woman it felt like i had a mouthful of raw vegetables and dry dough. Sbrocco oh, please. I want the Dessert First [ laughs ] i told him he had to wait