Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Charlie turkey is an important country by any measure. It is a democracy in a troubled region. However, in the eyes of its critics, it is becoming authoritarian and less tolerant. The country is both modern and old, islamic and secular, it has a gdp growth of 4 and look at its geography, i it it is europn and asian, bordered by iran, iraq, syria and others. The syrian refugee crisis has cost turkey billions of dollars. The turkish countrys president is credited with creating turkey as a modern and secular nation. I went to istanbul to visit the Prime Minister. His party was in local elections. He was interested a man to be a bridge in the world and unsuccessful in gaining admission to the European Union. Erdogan today is a source today of some controversy. The Prime Minister is accused of coming down hard on anyone who opposes him. Twitter and youtube have been banned and demonstrators dispersed. Some fear that in the process he is creating a more polarized turkey with deep divisions. Most intense conflict is with Fethullah Gulen who lives in pennsylvania, a preacher and movement with followers across the world. Former friends, they once supported each other. The two men are now bitter enemies and the Prime Minister promised to go after gulen. The Prime Minister acknowledged suffering of armenians in the massacres, stopped short of calling it genocide something aiarmenians have long demanded t was praised for taking the step. I talked with Prime Minister erred nerd his office in erdogan in his office in es tan bull friday night of last week. Thank you for taking time to see me. Im back in one of my favorite cities in the world. I thank you very much. Im glad to meet you in istanbul. Im very pleased were able to meet here. Charlie much has happened since i saw you last. Local elections, your party did well. Whats the significance of that for you . Well, it shows confidence. Its a vote of confidence. Charlie the next election is for president. Will you be running for president . We will have the government of the political party. We will convene next week and we will consult and by mid may we will probably announce our decision. Charlie this has been an important week because of the statement that you made on armenia. Well, this is something that i have been saying for a long time, and every time i said this, i said that it there were armenians and people belonging to other ethnicities who died in the event, and i always said that it is very natural and the right of cities to remember their suffering and we have to respect that. And they were citizens of the Ottoman Empire who are our ancestors, and what happened to those people is something that we have to respect. We have in our territory many armenian citizens. There are some who live here without passports, but we do not send those people away. They continue those armenians continue to live in our country. And we also respect the rights of others and continue to protect those rights. Charlie they obviously like to use the word genocide. Minister of turkey to characterize it as genocide . This is not possible because if such a genocide had been the case, would there have been armenians living in this country . We have today citizens who have passports, also armenians who are here in our country who have left armenia. We dont exclude them. We dont send them back. They make a living in our country and they continue to live in our country. We are a people who think genocide is a crime against humanity and we would never turn a blind eye to such action. And we also say this is a responsibility for the historians. Our archives are open and historians can come and look at the archives. If armenia has archives, they can open theirs, and they can make them available and we can establish a commission made up of historians, legal experts and political scientists who can then look at those documents and they can then come up with a report and we can all respect those reports. The situation is being exploited and i dont think we should accept that. Theres no reason why we should have any sort of doubt or suspicion when we view armenian citizens and that should not be the case, and no one has the right to say that. Charlie but you are saying you have to recognize their suffering and is there an apology there . This is not something that happened during the republic of turkey. This was during the ottoman ottn empire, and these are events that happened during migration and documents are very interesting. And if the documents show that our ancestors made the mistake and if they can show this we will not refrain from making an apology and bear whatever the consequence of that is. Charlie well turn to other places that there may be news coming, one is israel, because of president obama and Prime Minister netanyahu, there was an apology to you on the telephone. There have been negotiations about compensation and other things. Where does that stand and what is necessary to see the relationship and exchange of ambassadors . First of all, i thank you for this question. I would like to thank president obama, my friend, for his efforts in this respect because that was a step that was possible through his efforts. The apology on the phone by Prime Minister netanyahu was a result of president obamas efforts. There is an issue of compensation here, and we have come to an agreement with respect to compensation. And with respect to sending humanitarian aid to the people in pal stan through turkey is in negotiation and we can move to a position of normalization. I have spoken with my colleagues at the ministry and i think were thinking of days and weeks. I hope there wont be another black cat that did would change things. Charlie there may be recognition between turkey and israel in a few weeks. And the normalization process may begin and the first step of the process will be taken by the sending of ambassadors. Charlie then theres the question of the kurds. You have begun a process. Where is the process and are you optimist . This process is a Peace Process for a solution of this issue and the government has taken a very firm step in this respect. But despite all these steps, the separatist organization, in this election, too, has created some prevalence, especially in that region, but i can say that we are at quite a good stage despite some of the difficulties. We have been throughout the process of the selection, too. And we look to the principals of democracy. And we are not talking about an organization with arms with threats. What we are looking forward to is the process of discussion, consultation, discussion of project ideas. What we would like to see is to have this process of discussion and conversation, in the process in the election as well, that is the democratic process. Charlie now to the matter of mr. Gulen, who lived in pennsylvania in my country. What happened between you and him . After i became Prime Minister, i had not had any meetings with him other than a few phone conversations. I used to have meetings with him when i was mayor of i istanbul. And during my tenure as Prime Minister, we had good relations with this group for the first two terms. But the real problem began after 20111, after the referendum for the amendment to the constitution. There was an effort to take away some power, and this involved the Police Security forces and and my observation in hindsight is the effort were to consolidate the power with the forces and judiciary. And the first step they took was against the under secretary of the National Intelligence agency about the meetings that were going. These were steps taken against the under secretary, the deputy under secretary of the National Intelligence agency, and they were unacceptable to me because the oslo talks were talks with good intentions, and the National Intelligence agency of any country can take necessary steps if, in the end, they result in peace, and they have taken some steps. But in that process, there has been lies, slander and, because of those lies and slander, we had to intervene in the process and we are where we are, unfortunately. Charlie ill come back to that. Did you just wake up one day and find out they had infiltrated your government so much so that you called ate parallel government . We were aware that they were trying to infiltrate various organizations but we were not aware of their ultimate bad intentions, and we felt we realized this. After a while we started charlie when did you realize it . When did you know this was a struggle for power . When they moved against the under secretary of the National Intelligence agency, that was the first concrete step, because there was going to be another process that would follow that first step. December 17th, december 25t december 25th, these are the final steps which became almost a coup. Charlie almost a coup . Yes, it was a coup. It was a civilian coup. This is what they were doing. If i had remained silent upon returning from my trip, things would have gone a different way, but i was not silent and, when i came back from a trip abroad, there were hundreds of thousands of people at the airport who met me, and that showed specific a specific stance. Then hundreds of thousands of people, millions of people showed their support and that changed things around. And the people have really good firmly with us and we saw this on the 30th of march with 45. 45 vote. Charlie it is my impression that not only were they infiltrating the judiciary, the police, but you began to fear they were infiltrating, wanting to control the intelligence operation of the turkish government. Well, there is an intelligence operation within the Security Forces and a police operation. Charlie thats what i mean. The National Intelligence is part of the police. We do intel jenning intelligencr interNational Intelligence agency and they were trying to infiltrate those agencies and we have been trying to do a cleanup operation. Charlie what does that mean . To give you an example, they placed a bug in my office, in two of my offices. And the moment rerealized this we realized this, action has been taken. In the same way wiretapping of phones of the people at the highest levels of the government are listening to the conversations their conversations in their rooms or keeping the leader of the opposition under surveillance or members of parliament under surveillance, going so much forward that they went into the private lives of people. They also listened to encrypted phones and, most recently, they listened to meetings at the ministry of foreign affairs. One cannot speak of the patriotism of people who are involved in such action. No group can ask for special privileges for themselves. They came to a point where they were looking for special privileges for themselves and we could not have done that and we are taking determined steps to resolve this issue. But i have another expectation, and that is the fact that this group is in the u. S. , and its sad for us to see that such a group can exist in the u. S. , because these enemies which threaten National Security of turkey cannot be accepted to exist in other countries because what they do here to us they might do to against their hosts. No one can guarantee that they wont do that. Charlie so so i see them like an organization, and we have expectations from our model partner the u. S. Charlie what do you expect . What would you like for the u. S. To do . They can be deliberat deliver expelled. Its as simple as that. , if for example, someone is a threat to the United States and we get that information and, if we catch them, we hand them over. I have done more than ten handovers like this so far, and i would expect the same thing from our Strategic Partner the United States because these have been attempts to threaten our National Security. Charlie but you know hand over to us so we can do whats necessary. Charlie do you expect you have to do that, to turn over mr. Gulen . I hope so. Well, at least maybe they can expel him. Because this is someone who does not have a passport. We canceled his passport and he left this country on an illegal passport. But this person now can live in the u. S. On a green card. Charlie you know what your critics say. They say that you only began to speak out against gulen when their friends in the judiciary and the prosecutorial element began to press corruption charges against your friend, that is when you turned against them, only because of the corruption charges they were pursuing did you finally turn on them. These characterizations of slander began on december 17t december 17th, and there were things before that, actually. It did not start on the 17t 17th of december. So when we look at what is going on, it is already clear now that there is significant corruption in many of the organizations theyre involved with, and we will be soon unearthing these issues. When you have a Firm Position in the police and judiciary then there would be no one who would make claims against you. That is not a fair and just approach and they, too, will now see what justice means, and they have already started leaving turkey because they know whats going to happen to them. Charlie whats going to happen to them . Well, their crimes are grievous and when there are so many crimes and they know they committed the crimes they are leaving turkey. Charlie so youre on a campaign not only to prosecute them but find them wherever they are. These were people who were part of the judiciary and the police who brought corruption charges. Do you believe, because of the wiretaps, they were deliberately trying to do what . To find evidence against you that they could target you with corruption . Mr. Rose, technology is so advanced that you can listen to peoples conversations and then you can play an edit a few sentences, and the same thing is unfortunately happening in our country, has happened in our country. So the words you read out of my speech are correct. We will continue to follow this up, and those who threaten our National Security will be subject to the legal process. Charlie and what happens to the charges against you . Are those people being rooted out of the government . I am very confident in this. When we game to government, turkey had the gdp of 230 billion, and our government brought this up to 820 billion. In 12 years, we went from 238 billion to 820 billion. How could corruption be the basis of such development . When we came to government, there were a total of 6100 kilometers of divided road in the 79 years of the republic, whereas in 12 years we build 17,000 kilometers of divided roads. You cannot do this in a country where theres rampant corruption. We are building a bridge. We are building a Second Crossing under the water and they will be opened soon. You cant do this with corruption. We are building a fast train. How could you do this in a country with corruption . When we came to government, there were 26 airports. There are 52 airports in turkey now. There is hardly any location in turkey not accessible by air. How could a country full of corruption achieve such development . The gdp was 73 when we came to government. Right now the gdp is 35 . So you can see how the improvement has grown. The borrowing Interest Rate was 63 now we have zero digit Interest Rate on our borrowing. In europe, germany has a growth rate of 8 , turkey has a growth rate of 4 . This is all good for all to see. It is because people appreciate that they have voted 45. 5 in favor of this government. Otherwise, why would they keep a corrupt government in place . Ill come to the economy in a moment. Lets stay with this for a second. The question was raised that you look back at the same people who were there prosecuting the military and you seem to agree with it at the time. But then when they came after you, you looked back at what they did to the military and said maybe that was not good. Have you changed your mind about the legitimacy of the prosecution against the military . Let me tell you one thing. We are always against wrongdoing. When the chief of general staff was arrested, i made some statements then. If you go back and look at those statements, you will see that i have said that i did not think it right for him to be kept in custody and be prosecuted in this way, and i also said at the time that it was not these courts but that he should have been subject to the judgment of the higher judicial bodies and the Constitutional Courts, not the courts where he was tried. This is what i said at the time and this is what i still say. Of course, if there is evidence to support any wrongdoing, then the judiciary will make the decision. The judiciary is not attached to the Prime Ministerry. Charlie but it is the people you were rooting out of the government doing the prosecuting, are you now saying we should go back and look at the prosecution and see if it was wrong . Because once they turned on you, you began to look at them, and some of them, as you said, you have fired them or reassigned them. I think these are all characterizations. This is not true. It was not the decisions of the people involved on the 17 of december and the 25th of december who made the decisions. They were different judges and prosecutors so they were not one in the same. There is also the other aspect, the privilege we provided to the Constitutional Court and the Constitutional Court when these people exercised that right, made a decision, and this led to this process of retrying these people. They are not acquitted. They will be tried, but they will be tried without being detained. This is what the process is about. And it has nothing to do with the judges and the public prosecutors as such. Charlie many people in turkey obviously, you have high ratings and you just had a victory at the polls when you came to power, were the liberal, conservative elements of society, people of all religious faiths had great confidence, turkeys Economic Growth rate was up to 6 and 7 . Some, now, look at some of the things and say they fear a descent into authortarianism they talk about the rule of law, they talk about shutting down twitter and shutting down protests with the result of the loss of life and no worry, and they express this idea that turkey is becoming too authoritarian because youre too skillful as a politician. Mr. Rose, do you believe in this . Charlie im repeating what i hear and what i read from people in turkey. So im asking you because you get a Media Opportunity to have a dialogue about it. Well, let me tell you the following. In a local election, if people vote 45. 5 in favor of a person and you think him a dictator, you have to merely analyze the situation because the others in the political scene, 28 and less, because the dictator theyre talking about is a dictator, socalled, who can be subject to any sort of insult from the media, from the leaders of the opposition, and people can clearly and easily insult a person. If i were a dictator, how could anyone deliver such an insult to me . In our country in this last election, there were in Political Parties which were voted for, and they were all part of the ballot box, and the elections very completed without any problem. I will add another thing. You talk about twitter. This twitter does not have an office in turkey. Its an American Company and they are part of the informal economy, as such. There are Court Decisions provided to them and they include, for example, insults to the Prime Minister or ministers, and we go to court, courts render decisions, but twitter does not suspend those accounts. And on the other hand, the Constitutional Court disregards the legal system acts against the country constitution because article 148 of the constitution is very clear, it says that all the domestic legal remedies have to be exhausted before a decision can be arranged. But the Constitutional Court does not take that into consideration and renders a decision. So from a procedural point of view, the Constitutional Court is committing indiscernible , but because there is nobody above the Constitutional Court, whatever the Constitutional Court says has to be accepted. But the law talks about direct individual positions. So a decision would be rendered on that position. But this is not an all encompassing decision. This has been disregard bid the Constitutional Court. We talked about all this. I say that whatever instrumentation thats in france or the u. K. Should be in turkey. The twitter officials came and they were asked why they did not open an office. If they open an office and an agency here, they can pay taxes and if they create a legal system, indiscernible against them. Were placing smartphones here and ipads. This is the kind of government we are. Why would we be against communication technology. Charlie is there anything happening on twitter or youtube that you would be afraid of . Twitter has to respect everybodys freedoms. Second, they have to establish an office in my country. Does twitter pay taxes in the u. S. . Im asking. Charlie yes. Well, they have to pay taxes in my country, too. They dont pay taxes in my country and they insult the Court Decisions, they have to be taken into consideration. The Court Decisions have to be respected. If they dont implement the Court Decisions, what we do is we shut them down. They come, they open their office, they pay their taxes and then we tell them to go ahead. Charlie so all this talk about shutting down twitter is only about paying taxes . Only about paying taxes . Not just paying taxes. Its also about respecting Court Decisions. For example, theres an insult to me, i go to court and the court decide that that account should be suspended. Twitter doesnt do it or there are insults, they go to court, they win the case, the account is suspended but its not. This is the reason why those steps have been taken. So twitter has to respect the decisions of the local court. This is not what they did. That was the problem. And they did accept it when this was told them. There are also other pornographic things. These are all forbidden. They should not be there. Charlie so even though you and the Constitutional Court had a difference of opinion, you dont regret what you did . We do respect the decisions of the Constitutional Court but we also criticize if necessary. Its one thing to implement and another thing to respect that decision. I think we have to make a distinction there. Charlie do you believe the Constitutional Court is trying to get into politics . Well, there are such decisions, or if you look at the Statement Today charlie yes, specifically. Theyre not talking only about hee legal issues. It is also political. We want the judges, the judiciary to talk through their decisions. We do not accept in any way freedom of expressions but today the president of the Constitutional Court made the speech. The president was there, speaker of the parliament, Prime Minister, deputy Prime Minister was there and it was as if he was lecturing them and he does not have that right. He should talk about his area with his colleagues. Were talking about separation of powers. The judiciary, the legislative and the executive branches are in three separate places, and they should respect each other. If that respect does not exist, then there will be chaos in the country. And i was very sad to hear the Statement Today. I have chosen not to go there today. But i went there out of respect, and thats why i went there today. But to see such a speech there was very sad for my party, for my people. Charlie and i think the chairman of the or the president of the Constitutional Court will always be remembered for these statements and it will always be something that he has to face from now on. Charlie let me talk about the demonstrations and what might happen again with respect to demonstrations. When you look at that and the death of seven people, what regrets do you have and what will it be as a guide for you if there are demonstrations in the square again . Well, ill tell you other things when you ask me these questions. You have demonstrations in all countries, and people die in those demonstrations. Arent there deaths in the u. S. In demonstrations or in germany . Or in the u. K. , in madrid, in ukraine . Charlie because of the factions. It happens everywhere. Unfortunately, i say unfortunately because this is not something we would like to see but they happen. If you resort to violence, then such unwanted consequences occur. Who is it that resorts to violence . Its not the police. Those who resort to violence are, unfortunately, the people who are in the square who believe in the games the illegal organizations play. And when they attack the police throwing stones or using molotov cocktails, then the police react to it. These people, as you may have noticed, are not people who died as a result of use of weapons because the police our police would not use weapons. It would be a last resort. They would be patient. Water canons, for example, or other ways, tear gas. Our police do not use weapons to kill people. We have to be very sensitive to these issues. We never said no to protests. People can protest, but we dont agree on vandalism, we dont agree on demonstrations which resemble terrorist actions. So what we do is we show some area of places for demonstration, we provide those facilities, but people say they want to demonstrate anywhere they like, but this is not possible. It would not be in line with the law. Charlie so there will not be a demonstration in the same spot . They can demonstrate. I also can demonstrate and have such freedoms, but i go to where is december fated or the place that is designated. We have to get 2. 5 Million People together in istanbul and they came together and they left in a natural period of time and nothing left, not even a nosebleed. So people who want to demonstrate can go to those places and have their demonstrations, but places which are places for peep to walk around people to walk around usually for commercial activity, these should not be for demonstrations because, if they are, you unfortunately end up having incidents that lead to people having their nosebleeds. Charlie do you believe it was a foreign conspiracy . Theres always foreign provocation in such events. For example, look at the events in egypt or the events here or the ukraine. There are a number, and its obvious theyre managed from certain centers and we have documents to show this. The scenario, in other words, is the same. And when we see these scenarios, it gives the impression that the button is pushed in someplace and i believe the intention is to create chaos in some countries. Its sad to say it, but thats what i think it is. Charlie do you include the United States in that . Some groups in the u. S. May be part of this, or in the west. In other words, we have never claimed that the u. S. Administration has been a part of this. This has never been something that we said. But there may be some groups which may provoke. Charlie from the United States. Okay. Let me turn to foreign policy. Define the relationship that you would like to have with the European Union. And i say that because there are some who looked on you as a person who, if turkey became part of the e. U. , could be a bridge to the muslim world. To me, this would be the most natural course. This is what was expected. But we have seen the degree of sincerity in the west with respect to this idea in the last 50 years. They were not sincere. The islamic world believes also that turkey should be a bridge between the west and the islamic world and we still continue to think so. But the European Union is still not aware of this development, and we find it very difficult to explain to them or get them to understand it. Because turkey is a country where islam and secularism coerce, and turkey would play a very Important Role in terms of the developments that could take place in the islamic world. We believe our western friends, the European Union, have to be sincere in the way they approach turkey. We are still trying to open more chapters. When we came to government, there were 15 chapters for negotiations with the European Union, and then there were 15 members of the e. U. , they have 27 members now. The number of countries increased in e. U. , but turkey has been waiting at the door for the last 15 years. And this is not just about me as a person. Its not just my concern with respect to our confidence in the e. U. , its the peoples concern with respect to the e. U. Because we believed they would take the erky as a member but now we do not. Charlie will you continue to push for it . There are a number of developments in the world and those may have a bearing on what we decide to do with respect to this relationship. Charlie but things in the world might have a bearing . If these delay tactics continue to be the case, as far as e. U. , then we might have to look for other formations. There are a number of different organizations, and we may consider them. Charlie let me talk about syria, because you have a border with syria, you have refugees, and thats an issue for you. There is no place we can talk about. This we talk about them at the u. N. , but at the u. N. Steps, unfortunately, that should have been taken have not. Charlie because russia has the veto. Yes . S so far, we have nearly 700,000 refugees in our country. About 200,000 of them live in tents and 500,000 of them live in the cities and we have so far spent 3. 5 billion for them. The support from other countries where the effort is 150 million, out of which 50 million came from saudi arabia, 25 million from the u. N. And others from a number of countries. But the total amount weve spent so far is 3. 5 billion because we host them, we provide food, education, we try to provide assistance to these people, and we want the west to be heard as well. We should be in closer solidarity with the United States in this for example, but were unable to do this. Nothing came out of the geneva talks. We are together with a number of countries in nato. We have a partnership with the u. S. So all those relationships ought to mean something. There are lots of people who are internally displaced, millions, and there are almost 200,000 people who have died. Doing nothing and just watching is unacceptable. Where is the u. N. . Where is the u. S. . Where are all these countries . Charlie what concrete steps would you recommend to change the circumstances . There were steps taken in a number of countries. In libya, for example, steps were taken. Some steps in different ways could be taken with respect to syria. Phone takes into account what happened in vietnam, who did what, where it was finished and its done. Whats necessary is to have the determination to act. Why is it determination not there . There are sanctions imposed in many other areas but nothing much is happening here. When people die, people leave their country, and theres no remedy for them, and this is a hue humanitarian drama. Chemical weapons. Im not fooled by the chemical weapons issue. 2,000 people die as a result of a chemical weapons attack, that is considered a crime. Then, on the other hand, you have almost 200,000 people who have been killed by conventional weapons and that you totally disregard. If the result of a crime is death, then that crime is a crime. Im not saying i defend chemical weapons. Of course, we have to do something against chemical weapon, but why dont we act against conventional weapons . Tanks, artillery are used to kill people and they are considered almost nonexistent. Where do those ideas come from . Why do we not question that . Charlie you have a Good Relationship with russia. You respect vladimir putin, yes . Yes, we respect and like each other. Charlie so what do you tell him when he invades crimea . What do you tell him when he puts all those troops on the border of ukraine . In our conversation about crimea, i told him that i did not agree with his actions. He said that they were there because the people in crimea wanted to see them there. And my reaction to that was there could be other countries in the world who may look to somebody else to come in, but that should not be justification for that action. We should let those people stand on their own feet, and if theres something that we can help them, then thats what we should do so they can stand on their own feet. And with respect to the ukraine, there will be elections the end of next month. They have to get necessary support for the elections to go forward as soon as possible and elections have to be held because provocation may be made to prevent the elections from taking place, and thats something we have to ensure doesnt happen. I believe that it would be important to have a positive approach, and the people of ukraine and russia are friendly, they should be friendly, and i think that russia should also recognize this process in ukraine, and there is all hope that the end result of the election should be good for the ukraine and we all accept it. Charlie theres finally turkey and the United States. It was certainly said several years ago that you and president obama had a very Good Relationship and would talk often on the phone. Has that relationship changed . I mentioned that we spoke a month and a half ago. We do not speak as frequently, perhaps, but we still speak to each other. Our Foreign Ministers see each other more often, the secretary of state and our foreign minister, they see each other more often. Charlie is there more polarization than you hoped when you very much wanted to be the model for Secular Democratic and islam being able to be all part of the whole . Because i hear stories of turkey becoming more polarized and rich versus poor. Whats your sense sense of that . I would not agree with this. Neither would i say that there is no polarization. As you know, in a society, if the rich exploit the poor, the poor will not respect the rich. They would always be the rich. But if the rich share their resources with the poor, then that relationship would move in a more positive direction in society. Our society is predominantly muslim. Those who are more religiously observant always try to share their possibilities, their means with the less well to do. The ethnic strategy in the country may lead to problems. You may have political kurdism or kurds using their identity for political means and then turkish nationalism used. Charlie Prime Minister, thank you so much. Thank you. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org the following kqed production was produced in high definition. Calories, calories, calories wow, it rocked my world it just kind of reminded me of boot camp. I dont know what you had, but this is great it almost felt like sort of Country Club Food to me. Dont touch it. Its hot i gotta tell you, yo