Men and breaking bad. Those are all his programs. On the dramatic content side i think its probably fair to say that the sopranos was maybe the first show that put everybodys heads upsidedown and was surprising and was dramatic with an antihero. Mad men when we did it seven or eight years ago was also surprising because of the nature of the drama was unlikely and people were not as one thought they would be. We thought it was breaking bad. Then there was this proliferation of other dramas that were surprising. Today theres a whole abundance of them. I think one of the things that happened was that technology, including that which you spoke about netflix and v. O. D. , both on cable and via the internet met quality story telling. Charlie leibovich and sapan coming up. Funding for charlie rose was provided by the following. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Charlie Mark Leibovich is here. Hes chief National Correspondent for the New York Times magazine. The Washington Post described him as, quote, a master of the political profile with subjects revealing themselves in the most unflattering light. His new book is called this town two parties and a funeral plus plenty of Valet Parking in americas guilded capital. It is a darkly comment portrait of washington culture and pom ticks. It is also unsparing in its criticism of many of the citys power players done with humor. Humorous book reviews have asked will Mark Leibovich ever eat lunch in this town again. I am pleased to have him back at this table in a different capacity. Thank you. Thank you, charlie, great to be here. Charlie i mean this is really interesting from a thousand ways. Eating lunch in this town i think had to do with the famous quote in california and hollywood. Exactly. Charlie never eat lunch in this town again. Whats the origin of this . The origin of this is, i think, first of all just living in this town and working in this town for a while. I do think. Charlie this town being washington. This town being washington d. C. I mean after a while, i mean, people say youre cynical, youre a reporter. If youre a reporter in washington its hard not to be cynical or cooped in a way. If you were to look at this psycho analytically maybe theres part of me that wanted to check myself before getting into deep into this world. Charlie you have been coopted yourself. That would be dishonest. Charlie or live in a cave. Exactly. But i do think that the inspiration for this was actually at tim russerts funeral in june of 2008 which is the opening scene of the book and just watching it degenerate innocently into this networking opportunity and cocktail party. Charlie people came to be the funeral to be seen as much as to be seen. I think they were paying respect. There was a lot of sadness in the room. There was a quality to it. Clearly people were working. You see business cards flying and people congratulating. Charlie at a funeral. It was an epic scene. Charlie you talk about so many people. You say about former president clinton and the former secretary of state, that they do funerals well. They do. I mean, the clintons are he can betters at mourning and funeral. I feel your pain. Thats one of his signature lines. Again that sounds cynical. I think it comes from a place of genuineness but clearly if you talk to anyone who knows them, they are pros at sickness, at other peoples misfortune. They do empathy well. Charlie i guess it was mike allen who said this is a d. C. Takedown. Is it a d. C. Takedown . A lot of people have called it that. I mean, look. Charlie was it intended to be . I dont think it was intended to be. I mean it was intended to be basically hold a mirror to a culture. That sounds a little bit pat. I think ultimately people have focused on the takedown elements, right . Who really comes off worse, the tidbits. I mean, you know how books marketed and sort of talkd about these days. I think there is a larger point here which is that washington has become extremely selfsatisfied at a time when the rest of the country has been extremely dissatisfied with it. Its become an extremely wealthy community. Charlie and it caused therefore cynicism about washington. First of all the cynicism is there and it has been for years. I dont think readers or people outside of washington have a full appreciation for the carnival that this town has become. But, look, i mean, its been uncomfortable for me as an insider. I welcome the discomfort. Charlie you create a discomfort here. Its nonfiction. Its true. Its a work of journalism. It goes after people. I try to do it without crossing over into meanness, but i think that, yeah, clearly its a tough book. Charlie whats the line for meanness . I dont know. I mean i think you always have to watch it. I dont want to be known as a mean reporter. I mean, i probably fail on this occasions but i think i probably. I mean, i hope ive stayed on the right side of it. Charlie some people think meanness gets you higher than being good. Yeah. Its true. I think any good journalist will tell you that theres a great deal of soul searching that goes on in the process of a work that takes you a while, right. Charlie how long did this take . Three years which is longer than i thought. It actually worked out well chronologically but it begins in the obama years. Charlie its about the obama years. Its about the obama years especially the obama years but the president himself is somewhat absent from this. This is more about the festival that is gathered around him. Charlie but people within the white house are not absent from it. Yes. Charlie anybody that you pulled your punches because you feared what they might do to you . Would you write about the powers to be at the New York Times . Probably not. Someone else has though. Someone else does that. Charlie but you probably wouldnt do that because of fear or. Quon if its fear. Charlie make life difficult for you if you do that . Its not something that i would want to do. Charlie because its what . Because i work there. Look, ill be totally transparent about it. If i wanted to write a takedown book about my employer, i dont think it would be very, i mean, smart. I mean i love my employer. I love working at the New York Times. I have tons of friends there. It just wouldnt be something i would welcome. Charlie i dont understand and i mean theres a failure for me the difference in a takedown and a revealing portrait. I dont either. A takedown is an easy headline. Politico was calling this a takedown for months. They wrote stories anticipating it and predicting who would be taken down. I mean, look, its a shorthand mythology that washington is built on. Speculation is also a very thing in town. Charlie its also saying what people already know. But for somebody to say it, its a bit like a satire. Says something that everybody is thinking. I like to think so. Look, the notion that washington is resented both from the inside and the outside is not news nor is it new. I mean, people have fundamentally been very, very cynical about washington for a long time. Again i wanted to flesh out the picture. Charlie even title this town caught some controversy because. Well, a little bit. I mean, i think first of all to refrain. People always say in this town ive been here for so long and so forth. Look, i think its a good title. Frank sinatra has a song called this town. Charlie what have been the reverberations about it in your judgment . First of all pretty heady in that people seem to be reading it now and people seem to be enjoying it. The reviews have been terrific. I mean, i think whats interesting about it is there have been a mix of a few angry phone calls and emails. Charlie to you . To me. Charlie give me an example. Mostly in the vein of, how dare you. Charlie how could you be so wrong. Whats interesting to me is i would say the bulk of the critique has been arent you violating an unwritten code of people who are inside the club writing about their own . And ive actually been asked that. Heres what i would say. Journalistic ground rules are one thing. I honor them like any good journalist would but these unwritten codes that piece theme are talking about i dont quite know what theyre talking about. Charlie it could have been in part. Exactly. It leads to the kind of groupthink and conventional wisdom that makes washington wrong. Charlie is washington that much different from any other city, whether its new york or hollywood . I doubt it. Theres a big vanity sector in every city you described. Charlie and power brokers in every city and people who write about power and there are characters and cartoon i haves. Heres is one big difference. Washington is supposedly given over to public service. Charlie you expect more from washington. I would think so. Look, public serviceis usedded a lot. Not a lot in washington d. C. Its almost used ironically. People now go to washington to get rich. This was not true 20, 30 years ago. Charlie they go there for their second job. They do. If you look at the best and the brightest, the notion of talented people going from, you know, whether an Ivy League School to make a difference and leaving or just sort of making their mark as a Public Servant has been largely given over to, again, going there to maybe get into office for a few years but then just settling down as someone who can trade off whatever you did in government. Basically be set for life. Charlie for what purpose . They do this to go to washington so they can get a job after washington so they can make money . Thats usually how it winds up. That might not be their initial motivation. Most people like to say theyre going to washington to change the world. Charlie is there still a merit october arrest . I think there is. One of the points of this book is its very much a mediocretocracy. But there are a lot of extremely mediocre people in government but also in politics and consulting and on toe vee who by virtue of having that brand and having that celebrity appeal itself becomes an end itself. If youre someone who knows this town, you can sell your guidance to some corporation or to some lobbying firm or media outlet. There is an endless market for that. You tell the story of people who have servedded five minutes in an administration and spent 25 years dining out on it. In a sense often becoming in the process a pundit as if you know more than anyone else did even though your time in power was limited. Speaking as a journalist, i mean, punditry has sort of replaced reporting as the Gold Standard of what i do. Charlie has that happened in new york and in other places, i ask . Absolutely. Reporter the only difference youre suggesting is is that we should expect more from washington because its the seat of our government which is supposed to do. Yes. Theres an expectation but also these are the people who run. Two things. First of you will these are the people who run your country or think they run your country. Two, it wasnt like this 30 years ago. I think athlete receiptically, washington has been transformed by wealth and new media i would say more than any other city in the country. Charlie i dont know that to be true. I think back of people like walter lipman. Sure. They have always been there. Charlie they play the power game extraordinarily well. Yes. Charlie ben bradlee was a great friend of jack kennedy. This is not new. It is not new but all of this has been in some ways democratized and exacerbated by the proliferation. Charlie and multiplied. It used to be a clubby circle of a few hundred insiders. Now its a sprawling conversation where again frankly mediocre people can rise to, i dont know if to the top but certainly to a brand which has become a huge word there obviously. Charlie why do you stay there . Gaws theres no more fascinating place for you. Im fascinated by it. I continue to love politics. I love my job. My family has a good life there. If i can sort of separate it, its a very Pleasant Place to raise kids. My wife likes her job snairms beautiful city. Beautiful city. Frankly, life is what happens to you, right . Charlie while youre waiting to do something he is. I mean, i have dreams of living elsewhere. Ive been there for 16 years and perfectly happy there. Charlie here is the other question. Will they care six months from now but do they just move on to whatever the book is and whatever the criticism is and whatever it is. Maybe. Charlie does it have impact . I think it does. Here is why. First of all its a very small sample size but a couple weeks of feedback because this has gotten into your bloodstream pretty early, about early in july. A lot of calls from Political Science professors. A lot of younger people from outside the country who have read reviews, read excerpts and who have said this seems to have captured a moment. I think that moment is is is the 21st century in washington. I dont want to be comparing myself to other works of nonfiction. Charlie compare for a second. Michael lewis is one of my idols. Things like money ball and liars poker. They place in a moment in a realm. He wrote the new new thing which is similar to. It was a world. It looks at a world and profiles a world. This is not meant as a profile or a takedown of anyone person. It is a profile of a world. Charlie when you think about the characters and you think about the way it works and you think about the way washington works the number one person in washington is the president of the United States. Right. Charlie he came to washington as a young senator from chicago. Right. Charlie a few years later he was president. Because the time was so short between when he came to washington and he became president , did he believe he would be different . Because he was different . I think he did. I think he did. Look, i dont know the president. But i think theres no question. I mean you dont run for president for as long as he did and for as passionately as he did and for as effectively as he did without thinking that you can be different and you can be the changeagent that washington needs. I mean every president makes change but i do think that one of the great disappointments of this presidency if you sort of look at it from someone who believed the promise is there have been so many neverminds. Im not going to opt out of the Campaign Finance system in 2008. Never pine. Well do that. Im not going to work with super pacs. Never mind well do that. We wont let lobbyists into the white house. Never mind. Well do that. I dont want to make any grand declarations about whether he feels overor undercompromised here but i do think theres a sensibility inside the white house or inside people who have been around him that washington changed them more than they changed washington. There is actually a scene in the book in which that is explicitly stated. Its sort of a soul searching. Charlie explain it to me. It was a meeting in the middle of 2011 in which there was talk that the white house was not coordinating well with the fledgingalling reelection operation in chicago. The president convened a saturday meeting with about 15 aides including people from chicago and in new york. And the first meeting he said, look, i want to be very honest in here. I want to trust you guys its a fairlily big meeting we have a little concerned about the numbers. I want to make sure that we can talk about where weve been, where were going and get it all on the table. About the fourth or fifth meeting the president said, look, im very disappointed that i have not been more vocal in these first three years about and then he made a list. Gay marriage, climate change, immigration i think was one. And then the Campaign Manager was approached by one of the changechange authors. I think they worked a lot together. He asked about in meeting or asked about this conversation. Massena i think told the president about this. The president showed up at the next meeting which i think was following saturday. It was very disappointed just said im very, very. I trust you guys. This is really demoralizing. I want these meetings to continue. I any theyve been very effective but if they do, it will occur without me. Vice President Biden chewed out everyone around the table and the soul searching took place in which everyone asks why are we cooperating with books but also what happened to us . I mean, this never happened in 2008. Charlie all the things we said would never happen happened. Robert gibdz was very profane about it. I cant repeat it here. Did washington change us or did we change washington . The question was raised rhetorically. Charlie do you believe what some people have said, whether its the carter administration, the clinton administration, the Obama Administration or the Bush Administration either that in the end the town always wins. I mean, this is the story about the permanent feudal class which is a term from the republican senator from oklahoma. He uses this to describe this collosus. He speaks with a certain candor. Its interesting that he and obama are such close friends. My cynical bone does ache a little bit. I do wonder is this expedient . It does seem rather genuine. Reporter thats the interesting question. How can you be as a reporter, you know, what if in fact your intelligent bone is overruled by your cynical bone . I think it happens every day. Reporter cynicism always wins. No it doesnt always win. Look, im susceptible to authenticity. I think people can be very authentic. Theres a line in here from henry allen who is my former colleague at the Washington Post who is one of my idols. Im getting the line wrong. Its interesting no the effect that washington is a constant mix of authenticity and duplicity. There was another word. Charlie when i think about that, my first instinct would be thats true. But it was also true in rome. It was absolutely also true in rome. I do think again just the degree to which all of this has changed is noteworthy. I mean, yes, i mean washington does always win. I do think that this moment, you know, needed i mean i wanted to fully capture how that has played out. Reporter in fact in the end always, yes, there is something that can be described as a place. It could be a hospital, a law firm, a political campaign. But in the end it is shaped by real live smart cynical treacherous good people. It is. And theyre caught in their life in a pushandpull. That affects them. People are complicated in washington as everywhere. You know, part of my perspective is unique in that i have profiled hundreds of these people and some of them rather in a tough way. Everyone in washington is sort of constantly writing the story of their own lives whether through some sort of p. R. Apparatus. They have their selfimages. Everyone does but they have a way in which they want to be seen. When i come along and write something its obviously uncomfortable. But i mean, i have gotten to know these people. That is both an advantage and a disadvantage. Lets assume all this is true and all this is real and all this is not unlike the the rest of the history of civilization. Can something change it so that always your better angels rule . I would like to think yes. I would like to think that over time the democratic system can be the ultimate arbiter and the ultimate super ego on this. One thing you do see as a reporter is you have to leave town. You do get to see that real america is a very powerful force and a very different entity than what we deal with in washington. I think, look, if you look at things like immigration, if you look at things like gay marriage, if you look at things like even gun regulation, i mean a lot of this does emanate from the grass roots. People in washington will work in their best selfinterest. So in that sense, i mean the electorate, the customers can be a check on all this. Look, i dont know. I mean washington, it does knots seem to be getting any better. Its doing railroad very well form itself. I dont think theres a lot of motivation. Charlie just the battle between whom and whom. Valery jarrett, the royal battle with robert gibbs and Rahm Emmanuel and resentment with david axle rod and anita dunn and val real jarrett and david axle rod have crossed and bill district attorneyy and Valery Jarrett. A lot of dirty laundry has been aired. Charlie and think of all the things you just talked about. Most people know about that. Most people inside do. I think its very inside. Charlie inside washington, inside journalists corps. In the Political Class. I think most people dont care about it. Charlie most people dont care. I dont care whether its Valery Jarrett likes bill daily or not. Youre saying. I think most people dont. I made very conscious decisions not to include a lot of the white house intrigue and a lot of the intrigue snares because. I did not want this book given over to another book about the white house or the inside of the campaign. Charlie or another book that was simply gossip. Yes. A lot of this stuff is real. I mean. Snairls its real but up dont want it to be considered gossip because everybody wants to know something we dont necessarily know or confirming something we think. But i want this book to get out of town. I want this book to get out of the Political Class. I was worried that because the media bloodstream becomes so given over to the very, very small, petty intraworkplace matters of the white house that people would immediately dismiss it that way. Charlie you wanted to get beyond the Political Class and beyond washington because you think it will do what . I want this book to illustrate in living color or if people have their feelings hurt along the way, fine. What this has become. If it incites outrage, great. If its a shaming device for inside washington great. Charlie you just said, thats one thing in terms, it seems to me thats how people inside washington might read it and it may take off a thin veil they thought they were beneath when in fact they were not. What is it that you want the people in, you know, in North Carolina to think about washington and therefore to do what . I want them to know what it really looks like, sounds like and what really goes on. Everybody is pretending to about whats going on in washington. They bill a lot better. I dont bill. I dont charge by the hour. I to think, look, ive come away from this book with a far greater appreciation frankly for populism, for populism on the left and on the right. I mean, i can sort of. I think the, its not so much the pox on both your houses argument but the notion that washington itself has become an all powerful entity that i dont know if it needs to be swept out or what. But i just think that there needs to be a fuller sense of what it looks like. Charlie lets assume its someone who goes there to become as a political person, as a staff and then maybe wants a president ial appointment, doesnt get but gets to be a lobbyist and makes a lot of money. Is it money in the end what its all about. A big part of it. Its all rolled into the vanity sector that were talking about. Its all part of the same thing. I mean robert gibdz had a pretty mixed ride as the White House Press secretary for a couple of years. Since he left the white house in early 2011 hes made about 2 million in speaking fees alone because his fame just from being. This is not something that bill moyers could have done. Charlie the market wasnt there. The market wasnt there. Again, i dont fault him for this at all. I would love to make that kind of money. The fact that he is someone who knows how washington works, that is a recognizable face. It makes him a celebrity. I think when you have the celebrity culture that has grown up inside of politics job if wealth is the initial impetus but a nice sweetener. Charlie you can argue that he does have something to say. He knows the president pretty intimately. As well as almost anyone. Ill give robert credit because i think he has probably done more soul searching and probably been more outspoken about the disappointment that he has experiencedded within the idealistic bubble of the obama world than i think others have. Charlie who was kurt bardella. Who is he . Kurt was the former press secretary for darrell issa. Very powerful republican congressman. Kurt. Charlie with an instinct for investigations. Yes. When i was reporting this book i asked kurt, look, i would like to maybe follow darrell issa around. That was a nonstarter. Kurt was very compel to go me. He was this sort of a sandy glick type. He just was shameless in his selfpromotion and dying to get attention. Very, very transparent, very, very good at his job. Darrell isssa was getting mostly good press in 2011. Kurt let me follow him around. Charlie him or darrell . This is an emblematic sort of washington staffer. He has no college education. He sort of had his ticket to washington punched by hooking on to the campaign in 2008. He might as well have been a lottery ticket. He watched west wing growing up. He idolized jeb bartlett and ronald reagan. He basically said im not a democrat or a republican. Maria the character played by marten sheen. Im an opportunist. Kurt started sharing emails with me. Charlie he would give you emails that were sent to him. To get a window into how his days worked as a josh type, right. Charlie you werent unhappy to she have soas emails. They were mostly boring. Politico a few months after it started kurt was thrilled about it. He posted to it. A lot of reporters and politico heard about it. It became a scandal, a miniskeineddal. All of a sudden he was fired for sharing other peoples emails without their consent with a reporter, i. E. , me. So kurt was fired. I felt really badly about it. He was back and got a job in a you foo months was asked to be a pundit on cnn people forgot what he was infamous for. They figured he was a strategist. He had a name and a face. He wound up back with darrell issa again. No real fall from grace. Theres the story of washington. You will always eat lunch in this town again which is actually the full circle portion of this. Charlie was that a title once . It was one of the things i was kicking around. It felt doo derivative and was too long. We kicked around a few titles. Are washington egos different . From new york egos in probably not. Human beings are human beings and theyre complicated. Charlie the book is called this town, two parties and a funeral plus plenty of valet. The funeral would be tim russert who you called the mayor of washington. The mayor of official washington. Charlie which meant . He was the most respected news man in town. People, i mean, he. I dont know if that would have been true. Would sarah palin have bothered . Would they have put her anywhere neer him. Charlie he was as ambitious a man as i know. He was a master. I mean this will sound cynical. He was a master marketer. Tom brokaw said he made himself a spokesman for americans. Tom himself didnt say that. Essentially his talking about fatherhood, buffalo. It was a very effective message. Charlie its said im with you. Im not not of these rich cynical people. Im your representative not theirs. Tim straddled his world quite effectively i thought. I mean his loss left a massive void that i dont think has been filled. Charlie this book called this town again. Mark leibovich chief correspondent for the New York Times magazine. Thanks, charlie. Snairlts back in a moment. Stay with us. Josh sapan is here, president and ceo of a. M. C. Networks. The networks has helped make Cable Television a destination for high quality scripted shows. A. M. C. Made its name with a critically acclaimed series mad men. It has since built on that success with shows such as breaking bad and the walking dead. The company includes several other entertainment brands. They include the sun dance chargeable. He has drawn praise for expanding the boundaries of the Cable Television industry. He was an early champion of video on command and other distribution channels. He also sees greater opportunities ahead for television and a. M. C. Networks. I am pleased to have him here at this table. Welcome. Thank you very much, charlie. Charlie as someone who is passionate about television and quality, you know and narrative, i mean you have done it there, my friends. I am pleased to have you here. So i just returned from a conference where there was much talk about video streaming, future of Cable Television and all of that. Where is Cable Television today . At a great place. Charlie easy for you to say. Easy for me to say. 100 million homes in the United States are connected to some form of Pay Television. A substantial number of those, cable 60plus million. All these great and famous and important channels coming into the home and channels that people know and love and cherish not just ours. So i think its a big part of peoples. Charlie but if i am streaming netflix. Yeah. Two things i guess. One is net knicks has around 30 million subscribers. The great majority of those are Cable Television subscribers by deaf thinkings. So most of those people have both. A lot of those people find it happy and compatible and complimentary. In addition just on behalf of the Cable Television industry i dont work in that part of it theyre using the broadband type to bring netflix to their home. So it is certainly a rich subject to think about how it all goes but at the moment i think its a pretty little complimentary system. Charlie what happened to Cable Television . Was it hbo and then everybody else said look at the sopranos, why cant we do is that . Or was it a smarter explanation. On the dramatic side, on the dramatic content side i think its probably fair to say that the sopranos was maybe the first show that put everybodys head upsidedown and was surprised with a peculiar antihero. Mad men when we did it seven or eight years ago was also surprising because of the nature of the drama was unlikely. People were not as one thought they would be. Then there was this proliferation of other dramas that were surprising. To theres a whole abundance of them. One of the things that happened was that technology, including that which you spoke about netflix and v. O. D. , both on cable and via the internet met quality story telling. I think thats perhaps a little under recognized because it allowed people to catch up in between seasons and it allowed them to do it at their own choice and allowed them to do in their own environment that was at home like a cinema. You do it when you want. If youre watching a nuanced drama you are all in so when the next season comes on you sort of cant wait. Charlie some say its a golden age for television because of that. Do you believe that . Diswroo if you try and count historically its probably the third golden age. I do think its the golden age because of that. I do think that the technology really does allow somebody to say use social media. Im going to tell my friend they should watch this show. They should go catch up. When they do, they do it in an optimal environment. Theyre hooked because the story telling is spectacular and then they watch it on linear. Charlie whats interesting is to me is now because of twitter and because of Realtime Communications people in different locations are watching it at the same time. So they can talk about it. It is a little bit of a crazy ten onnom of social media and this robust ondemand and then of course the love that people have for great story telling in any form. Print and it comes together really enabled by this cool technology. Charlie it will be interesting how many people are are talking about mad men when they watch it as its rolled out. You can actual hell track that stuff. We do track it. You can get the stats on it. Weve gone so far as to make what we call Second Screen experiences. We actually have literally what to do on your tablet while youre watching your television theft because it just enhances the whole joy of it. Charlie mad men changed the game for you . Yeah. Mad men probably did set off a bit for us of change in reputation. As they say an invitation. We followed it with breaking bad. We developed a reputation for good drama. Then we had some sort of runway and economic invitation to do more and so we did. By the way behind it two things worth saying. One is that this technology was wind it because people did have have an opportunity to do it at their own design and time. The second was that there were this abundance of creative people like vince gill began and matt weiner who were creating stories but not yet finding a home necessarily. Charlie theres also this phenomenon of, what do they call it splurge viewing. Binge. Charlie i watched three seasons of breaking bad in one weekend. No you didnt. Charlie yes, i did. How did you feel. Charlie did you know day one that this is going to be a break away hit. You never do do you . I think you never do. I remember looking at the pilot of breaking bad and at the time our company was operated by cable vision. We took it off cable vision to show you a few people. We thought this is more like an infilm than it is is a tv show. This has exquisite story and character. Charlie exquisite acting. Exquisite writing. Wonderful dialogue. Yes. Charlie a sorry that just. I think what makes it a little hard. Charlie . Its so crazy. But what makes it a little hard to tell is of course it doesnt all happen in 42 minutes. The reason its fun and good, the same with mad men and other shows is they happen in multiples. Charlie but mad men was turned down. For seven years. Charlie seven years. I think i have the number right. It was in matts briefcase. He had it. He believed in it. Hits brilliance was on that page. We were fortunate enough, i mean it, to be hanging around the hoop and to read it and to take a shot. I will admit that i showed the script to a couple of people who i trust. They said dont do it. Charlie why . It was consistent with the other people who didnt love it. They said not much happens and characters are not terribly revealed. Not enough to keep you there. Charlie does this prove that if you produce high Quality Television an audience will come or not . I think today it proves that if you produce high Quality Television in todays technological environment and you have reasonable resources, yes, you actually will find the audience. You wont get lost. Charlie Cable Television hassles had thal toking thing that attracts me. It is interesting people. John malone. A genius. I just interviewed him. As you said to me, as someone had noted he has, hes a ph. D. , he has the quality of explaining complicated things in a very smart way. Comparing him, say, to bill clinton who could do that in public policy. Yes. Charlie hes back buying television and wants to believe that Cable Television because of broadband, bought of broad want because thats what hes in love with broadband. Societying up this sort of wonderful resurgence. I would always bet with him. Their comp fea used to own. Their company usedded to own half of a. M. C. Hes certainly the smartest guy in any room. Charlie smartest guy in any room hes in so far. I was in a room with him and chuck dolen. Chuck was the most Creative Business guy and malone the smartest guy. Charlie he was in with a lot of smart people. Chuck dolan is another one. Hes the founder of cable vision. Perhaps hes the person who started a. M. C. And started bravo which we operated for some time before we sold it. Hes the person who started the Regional News business, new york one here in new york. And a whole host of them. Hes the person who started the Regional Sports business which is the subject of todays wall street journal cover story about competition and price. Hes probably the original, one of the most original he and jim the most original thinkers, the most audacious. I think and risk taking. Group around in the cable business certainly among them. Charlie and at the same time has that quiet demeanor. That sense of almost humility too. Absolute gentleman. Absolute gentleman. Charlie what happens to Satellite Television . I mean by that direct tv and dish tv. Yeah. Charlie because charlie is trying to buy all the spectrum he can find. What are the limitations of Satellite Television. I hope i have enough information to be daing you arous. Charlie you didnt come here to talk about Satellite Television. Its true. There are today 30plus million satellite subscribers in the u. S. Thats a lot. Charlie direct tv is second. Direct tv is number one. Dish is number two. Charlie it is second to comcast in terms of number of subscribers. Theres direct and dish in the satellite category they have a pretty big fan fantastic business. Charlie thats why john malone who use sdz to own direct tv and ten had to give it up said in the end that he thinks cable and its broadband is the key to the future. So youd assume he would think that. Thats certainly his point of view. His initiative hes been a partner and friend of ours for a long time. Charlie i know. He suggests he wants to go in that direction snares but can they ever real hell compete if they dont have broadband . You know, im not sure. I really mean it. Im not sure that that wireless which does have capabilities that are changing are not competitive today with a pipe with a hard pipe, what its future is im not exactly certain. Charlie you dont know the future. Is that what youre saying . Thats exactly what im saying. Charlie what core competence do you have. Dont be modest. I think we have a great company. A. M. C. Network. Charlie you do. I think weve assembled i really mean this, i think weve assembled a great burchl of people. Were developing the sun dance channel. I dont know if youve paid much attention to it. We just put on this series called rectify which i think is. I cant say enough about it. Perhaps thats the most exquisite slowly paid. Charlie the your core competence the sense of. I mean, if you talk to a guy named jeff fager at 60 minutes and chairman of cbs news he would say my core competence is im a great story editor. A great story editor. Now, you are a great programmer like les moon is a great programmer. Do you have a gene for that . If i have a core competency its that i can create a plan. I hopefully have good taste. I can put together good people and get out of the way at the right time. Charlie netflix is making deals. Its financing things. Hastings is not a dummy. Yep. Charlie they made a deal with you about the killing. More than the killing. Netflix we remade a deal on the killing but netflix is the distributor in the second window, if you want to call it that, on a number of our shows including mad men. Sniem you can get them after theyve aired on a. M. C. Generally al year. Thats the phenomenon i spoke about when you mentioned your friend who is about to catch up on breaking bad. I hope in anticipation of the premiere. Charlie what is the appeal of breaking bad. Im obviously there. I just think, when story telling is so, so, so many todayed good and this characters so well developed and theyre so fully articulated as they are in that show then its just irresistible particularly wonderful about that show, however, is that he breaks bad. He goes from good guy and he turns into mr. Chips as its been often described becomes scar face. Charlie and as bad as he was good . Maybe worse. Maybe much worse. Maybe, i dont know what the words would be. Amoural, diabolical. Charlie to get to know him, mr. White,. You said it very well, a little bit like aaron paul. Charlie i heard it in my head when i said it. By the way thats a particular steal because i just jumped a little bit. I cant do it. But that sounded very good. Charlie thats exactly what i was hearing this my head. So good. Enough of that. What did you do when you were a teenager . Did you go around selling something on campuses like old films, classic films . Yeah. So i had a film society at the university of wisconsin. When i left school, we showed art films and weird films and refer madness. We thought we could set up mobile movie house around the country. Wee quiched a moving vehicle with projectors and the ability to print and then drove around the country and set up mobile. Charlie im interested in the fact of where people came from too. Doing concert promoting and it came to entertainment that way. You were sort of doing. Film distribution. Charlie sort of the same thing. All of it springs from some love of the sort of glamor and sort of something about the business. I dont know if its glamor. Its Cultural Impact and its intrigue and its just its creative juice. When youre proximate to it, theres a great experience of being anywhere. If youre emancipating it, if i can use such a fancy word or helping to make it happen. Charlie you can use it. Heres the last thing i want to talk about. The international, the whole notion. Is breaking bad popular. It is popular around the country. Around the world. For give me i just spoke. Sony distributed it around the world. It is quite popular. Sony is our studio partner in the show. They distributed it around the globe. It is popular anded mad men is very popular and the walking dead is particularly popular around the globe. Charlie why . I think in the case of the walking dead its zombies as you may know and post apocalyptic world with great characters so i think its access inlt is easy. It leaps over culture. Charlie for a long time people said that film was our greatest export. Certainly our greatest cultural export. Is it still because china is developing a huge chinese film industry. I want to know where we sit. It continues to be in American Television although british stuff is pretty wonderful. Certain things work better. Charlie the cards came from britain. Thats right. I think homeland was original. And the killing was called for bid. It was a dinish drama. Charlie do you like that . I didnt love borgen. Charlie tell me what you dream about. What do you vizzialize in the future when you think about maybe. Well i think about global, inherently global. Reach to owe think theres six billion people on the planet. The number connected to Pay Television. The number connected to broadband is growing really rapidly. Charlie and the number who have mobile devices. What i do think about because its an intoxicating and fut that is if you can bring that resource into the production of new material in a number of different areas this documentaries, in dramas, then you can actually feed a production pipe that would be terrific. If you make the distribution efficient, if you can figure out what makes it literally business efficient, then you can actually increase diversity of voice. I know that sounds like a polite thing to say but its a pretty wonderful thing. Charlie i dont want to let you off on the future. Where do you see it . Just take five years which is an eternity. Five years. So i think that the Pay Television system, as we call hasj been much . Discussed in the United States i think will be in pretty good shape. Charlie they essentially mean what . Cable. Cable, satellite. Thats the broad business term. I do think that there will be this thing called tv everywhere which is the ability to access your subscription on multiple devices that comcast, cable vision and others are deploying. That means that you can get all the stuff that youre paying your bill for on all your devices. With all that. Charlie you can take it to gym with you. Everywhere. I think there will be a proliferation of internet, delivered individual dwroa that may become a little bit more niche meaning netflix, amazon. It will thrive. Charlie yeah, yeah. Significantly. There may be more defined services, wref a Little Service called sun dance now. You can get this group of documentaries on an internet subscription. So thats interesting. Charlie i want to sign up for that. Good. Well take your order. Charlie 8 or behalf it is. What does it cost us . About 6 a month when its discounted. Charlie can you imagine 6. For 8 a month this is netflix you can access all those movies all that creative power. Its wonderful. Its great. But the cable subscription is pretty cool too because you can watch all this. You can watch three channels of cspan. Charlie exactly right. Thats your argument. No joke by the way. Charlie thats your argument for bundling and not al a cart. If you look at the last 20 years this is not to be an add roact for the Cable Television business but it is the engine. It is is the engine that has given birth to all this stuff and economically created a possibility. Its created four news channels tooking all day long and all this great drama and transparency to the u. S. Governments proceedings, et cetera. Charlie meaning you had to also get this other stuff and like cspan. So it certainly is historically it made it happen. Well see where future goes but we did make it happen. Charlie cant wait for breaking bad. Thank you for coming. Its been a pleasure to talk to you. Charlie thank you for joining us. See you next time. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org explore new worlds and new ideas through programs like this, made available for everyone through contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Flex the ankle. Press through the heel. Arthritis is a big problem. Bring the arms to the sides of the chair. The statistics are pretty grim. One in three adults has arthritis, or is going to have to deal with that. And thats amazing. I had been dealing with a painful illness that was affecting my hands and my feet. Yoga really is a huge part of my life, and i know that it repaired things that doctors told me would not. Could not be repaired