cameras, pretty basic devices. they didn't seem to have and after-action plan. they picked about the softest target you could find in boston. i look at this and say if they had an operational linkage back home i can't figure out what kind of capabilities that kind of operational linkage offered them. the other thing i look at is if you book end this from where you started 12 years ago, and you had 19 guys in an organization that had ideology t had fund-raisers, it had trainers, it had bin laden t had three years of planning to take down all those aircraft, and now we have two brothers who killed three people and then a fourth, boy, that almost book ends the 12 years of this generation of terror. >> rose: telling us what between those book ends? >> telling it us that we went from idea logically motivated people who had a whole architecture to build global terrorism to two brothers who could do a basic attack and then went out to party afterwards because they didn't know how to get out. >> rose: and told people they had done it. >> that's right. >> rose: okay there are lots of questions that come out of this. one, motive. what is your-- your judgement about motive? >> my judgement is what they say is not necessarily what i believe. they're going to talk about a broader goal. a broader jihadi goal, for example, which is evidently what the younger brother says. i'm suspicious about this. the reason is, first he doesn't have much of an idea logical background. second in these cases, these kids know they have done something heinous. they want to explain that they did it for a higher good. i think in some ways the explanation is much simpler, it to what we saw with idea logically motivated terrorists 12 years ago, and that is two kids are pissed off, they may be disenfranchised, they may have had a bad experience at school. they may not have friends. and they say look, we want to do something. this tactic of terrorism is a tactic of the 2 1s century and there is a justification for doing it and that is we think our religion sunday eejt-- siege. i don't necessarily think these are real jihadi terrorist, i think they are angry kids. >> rose: angry at what? >> angry, for example at their inability to find a place in american culture. angry maybe that they don't have great friends. they may have some vague religious notions but their youth, one of whom is 19 years old and his big brother said let's go do it. i said before, i think in some ways psychologically this has characteristics of columbine as much as it has characteristic-- characteristic of al qaeda. one quick point on that the first al qaeda guys we had at ci detention centers were idea log, challid chic mohammed, abu zebeda, very smart guys who built up an understanding of what they wanted to do that was intellectual. and they were flavored with emotion. over the course of 12 years with homegrowns like these kids you have emotionally driven kids who have just a flavor of ideology. that really is a fundamental shift in the war on terror. >> so what's more dangerous for us, somebody that is organized and we can try to find out something because they are communicating with each other, or a whole range of people like these two brothers who decide they want to do something for whatever reason, whatever the motive, and then look up how they can do it and they do some damage at a very, very, you know, popular cultural sports event. what's more dangerous. >> i think al qaeda is more dangerous strategically because they can-- or in the past they were. right now they're decimated. >> right. >> they could figure out how to conduct an attack that might kill hundreds or as we saw thousands. the problem with al qaeda, though s when you given tell against services a target, that is a target of leadership in pakistan, communications, couriers which destroyed bin laden's life in the end, you have a strategic capability because of that massive organization. it also gives you a tremendous vulnerability to people like me in my past life. by contrast, these guys like we saw in boston are less of a strategic threat. they're to the going to bring down aircraft, they're not going to coordinate 19 hijackers but think about the challenges for somebody like me and finding vulnerabilities between two brothers who are talking in one apartment. i got to look at their communications, their money, et cetera. where am i supposed to find an edge that will allow me to identify them. that's pretty tough. >> what do you think they learned when the older brother learned when he went back to chechnya? >> there are two avenues i would be looking at. the first is ideology, the second is operational. the operational piece, again, you have got to pursue it. the words "i think" in the counterterrorism business don't count. i think he didn't learn anything back home. i've got to prove the neglectivity. i know he didn't learn anything. so my first question is did somebody train him on explosives, on operational planning. it looks like no but you got to check it out. the second avenue though, is, who taught him to think about ideology. did he pick up pamphlet, did he go to mosques. i would say 9 prospect that he didn't touch anybody when he was home for six months, who said jihad is the right way to g i think that prospect is low. but let me be clear on this. that doesn't mean he's a jihadist. it means, i think, that he is a pissed off kid that wants to do something and he finds an excuse to do it. >> rose: and your book is called "take down: inside the hunt for al qaeda" >> what is the-- and you refer to obviously that they have been decimations within their ranks. >> yeah. >> rose: including osama bin laden but many others. what is the status, what is the strength of al qaeda today or is it primarily with affiliated groups? >> i would say it is with neither. what is happening is al qaeda was, i thought initially and i made a mistake. i thought initially in '01, '02, '03 where we are sitting in a threat table every night reading the flood of threat items from united states and overseas, i thought we were losing. and i thought we were losing because i started to see attacks in places like indonesia or kenya, saudi arabia. then we saw them in paris, london, turkey. what i realize is al qaeda is not a group, it's a revolutionary movement that wants to inspire people around the world who have never met an al qaeda member to conduct attacks like what we saw in boston, what we saw in london. it took me awhile, though, to understand that by spreading that revolution too quickly the people who were pick up the baton did not understand the al qaeda ideology. it slowly dissipated over time. and so they started to kill too many muslims, frankly. >> rose: right, saudi arabia, iraq, jordan. and so people across the islamic world who might have been potential recruits said i don't like the americans but these guys aren't an answer. >> rose: whaz is the headquarters for al qaeda today? >> where are they? >> al qaeda doesn't have a-- they don't have a headquarters. they don't have a headquarters in pakistan, that is the easy answer because their leadership over the course of 12 years disappeared. so then you look at affiliates in places like yemen, somalia, algeria, somali. i will tell you about those affiliates. this he have a life span of about a year or two, how many problems have we said al qaeda problem is indonesia with attacks in bali and australian embassy. in yemen with attempted takedown of cargo aircraft, now in mali. so the life span of these groups is relatively short-lived and also finally i would tell you these groups don't think as internationally as al qaeda. they say they do because they like the brandment but they are still operating relatively locally. >> rose: you support drone warfare. >> yes, i do, absolutely. >> rose: any question about slarl damage and it creates more problems than it does successes, doesn't-- you don't buy that? >> i understand the questions. look, those of white house are on the inside i think sometimes are portrayed by americans as sort of knuckle dragging people who want to kill as many as we can. that is incorrect. i think many of us are thinking warriors and taking a human life is a profound step. every human being, i believe n including osama bin laden has a soul. and he has a family. and he has parents and he has children and wives. i'm not saying he is a good guy, obviously. but you have to think about what are you doing when you are taking the life of another human being. if you look at what we had to do, we had two choices. it wasn't do you alienate people or do you not take a drone shot it was a binary choice that was simpler. there are people contemplating killing innocence in new york or los angeles or wherever. we can to the capture them. and local militaries can't get to them fast enough so i either disrupt the plot or i have this idea down the road that if i don't disrupt it maybe things will settle down because the locals aren't as alienated from the americans. the choice wasn't that hard it was disrupt or not disrupt and people like me said let's go. take a shot. >> rose: you mean what year was this? >> this would have been through '03, '04, '05 for me and then watching it from the fbi in '06 and beyond. >> rose: so it seems that some argue that the fbi, and you and i have mutual friends, that the fbi has a different attitude about interrogation than the cia. is that an accurate, precise point? >> it has been in the past. but the cia is getting out 69 interrogation business. they're still in the questioning business. and i'm sure there are cia people participating at least on the outside. i'm not sure from the inside in boston. but that's different from the black-- and interrogations that we conducted when i was at cia. very different. the cia is out of that business. >> but we have seen books written about the effectiveness of it. >> yeah. >> as you know. >> yes. >> where do you come down on that? in terms of, for example, i interviewed dick cheney, dick chainee said water boarding works. i would be in favor of it today. we got results from it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. >> yeah. >> do you agree with him? >> i think, absolutely although i suspect he and i would come out at a different place for the reason, over the long-term for the reason i'm going to explain to you. i was a recipient in the counter terrorism centre at the cia of the information that came in from detainees it was invaluable, not just hopeful but invaluable. in my world typically you deal at the core of intelligence with human source and technical sources. technical things like phones and e-mails. in my world over time you add aid third source that was detainees. one of the challenges we had, by the way, in interrogating them was you might have been able to build rapport over time. we thought we did not have time. the last thing i would say, though, is i think people misstate this question. the question is not whether you like interrogation techniques or whether they were successful. i think that's a red herring. they were successful. the question is are americans comfortable with having their security service does that. and the answer is no. >> rose: but let me back up a little bit there. >> yeah. >> rose: only because the conversations i have had with a whole range of people from george tenet and a whole lot of other people who have been involved in this. and you get a variety of different opinions and so i'm just asking this of you. >> yeah. >> rose: there is no question in your mind from what you saw, that enhanced interrogation and black sites and water boarding worked to give you information that was essential in the fight against al qaeda. >> correct. >> rose: and an ability to disrupt things that might have happened otherwise. >> correct. >> rose: and the ability down the road to get osama bin laden. >> i don't know about osama bin laden. i think that's a fuzzy story. but in terms of disrupting al qaeda operations i think it's unquestionable, in my world. >> rose: give me an example of what somebody said that was-- an intelligent interrogation, enhanced interrogation coup. and you were able to take that information and stop something that would have killed a lot of innocent people or a lot of americans. >> typically it would be the identification of a name or a fragment of a name. and then would you match that up against the massive databases that we had, so that you take something to the naked eye, to an unpracticed intelligence professional would be not that helpful. you know, for example, somebody would say yeah, there was a red haired guy from timbuktu in our training camp two years ago. and we sent him back to conduct attacksment you say okay, that's not really what you would call intelligence, an intelligence coup. would you go into your database and say okay works was traveling in and out of pakistan or afghanistan from timbuktu at that point who else have we picked up. is there a red haired guy that is referred to another reporting. it's bits and pieces that make a mosaic. it's not somebody walking in and saying the next attack in new york. it's joe, mow and larry and they're going to conduct it tomorrow. that doesn't happen. >> rose: you just pick up and be able to connect the dodds cash did -- dots, that is what it does. >> there are little tiny pieces that are borg, mundane t is a grind. those pieces build newspaper databases from foreign security services, human source penetrations, e-mail, phone and finally detainees over time. any one of them can give you a bit and piece that you can match up with what a detainee said to say he thought, and some of them thought this, he that detainee thought he wasn't giving us anything. actually he gave us a fragment of gold. >> rose: that is a little of what happened in the movie zero dark 30, isn't it. >> i didn't see it. >> rose: why not. >> i will not see it. >> rose: why not. >> because it gives americans the sense that this is what their security service does. as i understand t sort of people sitting around rooms kick around detainees. that is unacceptable. it's not what we did. in the perception among americans that there is some rogue security service out there that does not operate at the direction of the congress and the white house, elected american officials, and under the law established by the congress and interpreted by the department of justice, i did not live in that world. they told us what to do. we tried to execute it as best we could. >> rose: you know, you backed out of a confirmation. was it because of this kind of talk? >> yes t was. i was nominated it was incredible honor for what was once a junior officer, me an entry level officer to become head of intelligence for a department of homeland security. i was happy to take the hearing. it was gok an open, televised hearing but i was the only person who was a cia nominee for a job that required senate confirmation. and the senate started to say publicly and to the white house and others and to me we're going to nail your head tie wall when you come down here because at that time there were debates about what the congress knew when. arguments between republicans and democrats. my personal attitude was already, bring it on, let's go. but i thought i have never met the president, you know. in dense to him and with respect to the process, the professionally it was better to withdraw. after that, i looked in the mirror, said i think it's time to leave government. i don't have a place to go. >> rose: might you return? >> i would for the right job. it would have to be a great job because i'm working in asset management in the money business now in memphis and i love it. but i still feel the call to of is it's odd, you know, when i heard the boston stuff, i can't get out of it. your stocking starts to churn. my first question is did we miss something. like i'm still there. what if we missed something and somebody died. who is going to do the afteraction. what is the congress going to do within 72 hours when they say you failed. how do we deal with the media. what is the remediation efforts that we have in years to come to see if there is anything we can-- you know, you can't-- that is why i turned the radio off, the cell phone off because you can't escape it. i live it. >> rose: dow believe we missed something. as you know, about the traffic between russia and the white house. >> yeah, my -- my judgement at this point and it's early on is there might be minor tactical things to learnment i would doubt that is there a strategic error here for reasons americans don't understand. the first is, americans see episodic incidence of terror or terror plots. they don't understand this is a volume triage business. you got to for every one that comes on the table, you got to take one off. and so the first thing is, you know f are you dealing with 10, 20, 50 of these a day are you dealing with several thousand people who are of interest f somebody says yeah, i look at web sites and i'm unhappy. being unhappy and being rabid in the united states is to the against a federal law. and furthermore i can't watch that person indefinitely. the secretary thing i would say is if you continue to pursue one of these in a thousand are false positives, those 999 are going to be pretty pissed off and i don't have the resources to do that you would be surprised how labor intensive intelligence operations are. really they cost a lot of money and they take a lot of people. >> rose: you talked about madrid and london where there were two different kinds of ploxs. >> yeah. >> rose: but i say there was a spider web there. meaning that the person who did that had a network that he could rely on is that correct? >> that's correct. we've got two spiders in this case. now one in boston and the question you have as an intelligence professional is, has nothing to do with what investigation is happening in boston over the past few days. it has to do with common characteristics of terror plots or cells. money, travel who recruited them, who did they recruit where. did the ideology come from, where did the explosives come from i have to check every one of those boxes and say i can tell you without question that there is not another fragment of spider web around them that the two spiders are it. when you look at madrid and london there were spider web everywhere. that is, not just brothers but a network of people that got explosives. in one case out of a quarry in spain. in the british case, in 2005, those kids had direct connectivity to senior al qaeda players in pakistan, and part of the cell in london traveled to pakistan. so a if you contrast that classic al qaeda oral quitea affiliated operation in london with two spiders who don't have a spider web in boston, to me the terror world today is almost captured in that contrast. the world today is fundamentally different than what i saw even five, six years ago. >> rose: when you say that the internet is more an accelerator in radicallization. >> yeah. >> rose: in radicallization than it is an initiator what dow mean. >> yes, the world of terrorism among homegrown, what we call homegrowns has changed because lot of those homegrown don't have the deep ideaological roots that some of bin laden's innercircle had. you could sit down at our black sites, our detention facilities in cia and some of those guys like khalid sheikh mohammed could draw for you the history and ideology of the, this kid sitting in a hospital can't do that what we're seeing, though, is kids today who are radicallized by an older brother or father figure, not just? boston. we've seen it in canada, in the u.k. the ideology isn't very deep. and once that individual, that human contact starts you down a path, then the internet comes in. images of dead babies. images of raped women. images of army individuals going into mosques. and that accelerates the process that typically, i think s started by a human being, not by an internet page. >> rose: i never understand why with radicallization where is the point in which a ideology slips into an act. what causes if, why do they do it? what do we know about that? >> there's one reason interesting thing, i came to learn in about '04, '05 that i still think holds true. the first is, is there somebody who is serving as sort of the catalyst. and again in this case it's the older brother. that's not unique. in the second is when is there a step and there often is between thinking about doing something, and actually conducting the act. and there are two-steps that i think are significant. the first is separation from a group. so su have a bunch of people back if the day talking about iraq and three of them say you know there's a bunch of talk here. let's do something. the second is actually moving beyond conversation to action. not to terror but to action. so they go adventure camping, paint balling, whitewater rafting. i used to think this was because they were trying to train themselves operationally. instead what i learned is that sort of catalyzed their mind-set to say now we've gone from thinking to action. let's kind of keep going. that whatever action they took and it could be going to a state park to have a barbecue, that almost set them on a pace. >> rose: i also don't understand why there was no escape plan here. >> yeah. >> again, i don't think this is uncommon in circumstances like this. part of what happens is they plan for the moment of the event and the event is the thing. once the bubb sell burs they sort of say whoa, we actually did-- especially when are you talking about guys who don't appear to have any broader network supporting them. we did the thing. we don't-- we didn't think that much about what to do afterwards. there is some of sort of emotional involvement in saying we're conducting an operation that will lead to the murder of innocence. that the emotion sort of flies out of the room and they sort of say what now. and that's why i think this kid going to parties. i bet he was emotionally drained. and i bet by the way, partly because i don't think he is deeplied ideaological as people would you have seen in this movement 10 years ago. in contrast to khalid sheikh mohammed, will never regret what he did, will never apologize. i bet you a paycheck this kid apologizes one day. his bubb sell burst. >> rose: so you don't think that khalid sheikh mohammed will ever say i regret it. >> no. he spent years surrounded by people who not only were like-mind but were very smart in thinking about what they were doing. za what hari, the current leader took over from bin laden in al jid-- al qaeda, very thoughtful guy. he has some knowledge of what the history of jihad is, i don't think he is a great leader compared to bin laden but they sat around a camp fire for years in 1990s into 2001 and smart guys persuade each other. brainwashing is too strong a word, i think is too too simplistic a word but they persuade each other that not only is their cause just but that this cause will not come to pass in the lives of their children or grandchildren. so it's okay to have setbacks. all that means is you know, we're on the path of god and god will allow this to happen eventually even if it doesn't happen now that doesn't hold true for a 19-year-old kid in boston who i believe is going to say damn, i sort of went down the path with my brother. and now that i think about it, it's sort of like, by the way, the sniper shooter we had, the young sniper shooter we had in washington a few years ago now if you read what he says, man, i just went down a path and it was a black hole. >> rose: and again there was the influence of an older man. >> that's exactly right. people who want to very quickly and simplistically say this is an easy basket, they're terrorist, string his ass up and kill him, very simplistic and i think he roneuous perception of what we have. here. we have on element of terrorism, maybe jihad ideaology but at the core an emotionally driven human being who was influenced by his brother and don't know much about the ideology that he claims to represent. >> rose: so what are the unanswered questions about this. you seem to have a fix on who they were and how they operated. you know, what kind of terrorists they were. no spider web and all that. so what is it that you want to know you don't know. >> the two things. one is the terrorism specialist and one is a former manage never the federal government. the first is easy. can we prove that there wasn't a conspiracy. prove it. i don't want to see-- i don't want to hear, i think, maybe, possibly. i want to hear we checked every conversation he had in the past five years. we checked every e-mail, every phone call, every step he took in chechnya when he went home to visit his family. and we can't find a single instance where he touched somebody who either participated in or was aware of the conspiracy. >> that's number one. >> as an intelligence specialist, what's number two. >> number two as a manager you have to do and after action. regardless of what the congress says in this political game in washington. was there an intelligence failure. any professional will sit down and say i want to see this chartered time line from a to z. not that we're looking for any agent if boston but just to say in a reasonable world where we have limited resources, was there something different to do? >> let me go one more time watch. do you think motive was. >> yeah. i think motive was anger, dissociation with american culture with a twist of jihadi ideology. >> as people listen this. >> i'm going get a lot of hate mail which is fine. this country gets animated by this because people here mix up emotion with analysis. i'm not here to apologize for islam. i'm here to tell you have i done this for nearly 30 years, these are the facts. >> people are also going to say the following, look, you know what we have done in the battle against terrorism in some cases in terms of tactics we have used has been counterproductive. it has recruited more jihaddists than it's killed. it's done for damage than it has benefit. >> yeah. let me ask them one question. if that's the case, where are all these dudes. september 12th, 2001 you sit down and say the most significant attacks in 12 years are two young people in boston who don't have an al qaeda affiliation. and one shooter in texas at a military base who had an episodic e-mail contact with a radicallizer in yemen. in september 12th t 2001, if you said the american people who look at drone attacks will says that's actually a failure. and that's an incredible representation of terror in the united states, i would say are you kidding me? no way. >> rose: and suppose they then say have you read you know, the sense of the values of america, and dow understand what we are supposed to stand for? >> well, if the question has to do with drones i would say well then tell me why we shoot in warfare artillery and mortars. people focus on drones because it's sort of a sci-fi thing that looks like a movie. it's delivering a warhead from the air, the sam kind of warhead you might deliver from the ground if you had an option. i don't get it. if you want to kill a terrorist in afghanistan and you are the military of the army, nobody in this country cares. if you kill a terrorist by a drone somebody's going to say i'm sorry there was a little bit of collateral damage, -- collateral damage which say tragedy. people in this country want to separate war from tragedy. you can't do it. >> and there will always be civilian and collateral damage s that part of the -- >> yeah, i lived this and i didn't-- it's not an argument. it's, you know, i wake up every day. i think a lot of us, i at least didn't really consider what this would mean for the rest of my life. you think about it, i'm a believer. did we do the right thing. i have no question but that we did. but if you are in this business and you've lost respect for the sanctity of the human life, even if that human say terrorist who lives in pakistan who wants to put suicide bombers on an airplane, i say get out of the business this is tragic. but if you've got to protect kids there's not many ways to do it when you can't go capture somebody. >> rose: the book is called "take down" inside the hount for al qaeda this is the dedication. the book is for my father. i suppose it is the way of most sons never to tell their fathers that they love them. perhaps they can write it thank you, poppa for everything you gave us and everything you taught us. break out a deck of cards. phil, thank you. >> yeah. >> my pleasure. >> rose: more later, phil mudd from washington. >> all right, thank you. >> rose: back in a moment. stay with us. michael strahan is here. for 15 years he was the defensive back bohn for the nfl's new york giants. his gridiron career included 7 pro bowls and super bowl title. he holds the league record for most sacks in a single season. since retiring in 2008 he has become one of america's most engaging and versatile personalities. each week day he could hosts a highly rated abc talk show "live with kelley and michael" during the football season he is a studio analyst on fox nfl sunday. davis amses den en writes that mr. strahan has established himself as a rare media personality, as recognizeable to housewives as he is to their adolescent sons so we're pleased to have him here at this table for the first time. welcome. >> thank you, i'm happy to be here. >> rose: so you like this television thing. >> i love it. i love it. it beats getting hit in the head for a living it if i had known this may be i would have skipped football all together. >> rose: talking about football, the act of leaving. >> uh-huh. >> rose: when did you, did you ever have any misgivings after that that maybe i should have done one more. >> oh, yeah. oh, yeah, definitely. especially because i left it. i went to fox. and i knew what the next step was. but any time you win a championship and you feel physically and mentally that you could play a year or two more and you get to play a year as a champion to kind of do that victory ride and say yeah, i'm the man. >> rose: the nfl champ is coming this sunday. >> i never got a chance to do that. and i-- there have been times that i regretted it. but now i look back and it was the right time to leave. 15 year, one team, one city g out on top. pain guys, most guys pretty much know one gets a chance to do that. >> tell me about your dad. because to read about you is to see a father who has good advice at every turn and instills in his is on the idea that you can be what you dream. >> yeah. my dad is amazing. and he always-- and i didn't realize what he was doing or saying. and some of the advice that he gave me at the time i didn't want to hear it but i look back now like most people do and i go wow, they were right. the one unique thing about my father is growing up my senior year of high school. i didn't play football. i grew newspaper germany. working out with him since i was 13 because my brother said i was chubby. >> you were. >> yeah, i was. well, i was big boned. so i started working out. and i started working out with my father. so by the time i was 17 and senior in high school, he said i will send you to houston. you are going to stay with your uncle and you're going to get a football scholarship. and i said okay. now i'm naive. i don't know, i'm going germany to houston h no idea texas was such a big football crazy high school to college state. and i did it i had the one scholarship to texas southern university. and when i was there, and wanted to quit my dad would say when you make the pros, or when are you an all-american, when you get sacked, when you make the pros, when i'm in the pros, when are you in the pro bowl, when you win the super bowl. and it was always-- . >> rose: it was always when. >> it was never if. and for me it all came full circle in the super bowl, the patriots scored and they are up 14-7. and-- no, 14-10. and gi to the offense, on the sideline and gi 17-14 will be the final score, believe it and it will happen. one up todown we're world champions. believe it and it will happen. and that was all from what my dad had put into me over that, you know, 30 something years of my life. and it all came out at the right moment. >> rose: so you always believed him. when he said i believe, you got to believe, you believed. >> yeah, when my sdad said when you walk on the moon i will believe i will become an astronaut. >> rose: what did he have about your television career. when you said to him i'm leaving, this is my final season, they want me to come back. coy have another great year but i have decided to hang it up. >> they were happy. >> rose: they were. >> because they knew that i had done it. i had pushed myself as far as i could. and we had won its super bowl. my parents got a chance to enjoy that with me. and they were just happy that i am happy. and that's really it. so when i said i was done there was never any pushback like are you sure you're done. you know, boy we sure like coming to those games. it was that's great. and we look forward to you doing well on tv. >> rose: how good were you in college as a football player. >> i was horrible my first year. i didn't know what i was doing. >> rose: but were you athletic did. you have athletic skills, you could run, good hand-eye coordination. >> i had all those things. i had no technique. hi no complete understanding of the game. and but it made me study. i read books. and i watched games on tv, the professionals. hi some good coaches who i worked with. and i became really a student of fool ball. and like now i'm a student of broadcasting. and it's worked out. one thing has paralleled another for me. >> rose: so once you gave it up, how did you become a student of broadcasting. you watched every show, saw what they did. you decided what makes a good analyst. >> yeah, pretty much. even as a player i would watch and go i like that guy. i don't like that guy too much. this guy seems like he's saying it and he's mean this guy is saying the same thing but he's saying it, you know, not in a spiteful or mean way but it comes across with the same point. and i just had to study people to learn thal. and i never assumed that i know everything. i never assume that i am the best. and i always figured if somebody i could learn from. and the same thing that drives me now is the same thing that drove me on the football field. it's not, you know, trying to reach and have success. it's more my fear of failure s really what pushes me. >> rose: people say that that it is the fear of failing rather than the hope of winning. >> uh-huh. >> rose: thattive drews them. there is also this. when you, when they ban to search for a successor, did you instantly says that's a big opportunity for me? >> i had no idea. i mean regis had done pretty well on that show. >> regis had built the show. he was everything. and i never considered myself to be a candidate for it when they first started looking. >> rose: who did it for you, then. >> well i just wantsed to come on and be a guest host and do it like one morning and see if it could be fun. and i came on. i did it once. >> rose: had you placed a phone call to the executive producer of the show and say this is michael -- >> michael gelman. >> rose: yeah. >> oh, man, when i went on as a guest back in 2008, we said you know, if regis ever takes a break and you need somebody to come in, i would gladly do it well it only took two or three years later before i got the call. but it was one of those jobs that i never said, you know, this is something i definitely believe i'm going to take over and do. it was just an opportunity that i came in. i had fun. and after the first time of doing it, i said man i want to do that again. i know i can do so much better. >> rose: what did you like about it? >> the interaction with the crowd. the instant feedback. it's a performance. it's fun. it's topical. and it goes totally opposite of what people would see a former professional athlete do. that is what i like the most. >> rose: and you get to meet all different kinds of people. so you were a big star so you already met a lot of people. >> you know what, i met a lot of people but i didn't know a lot of people. so it's really something and you stand in there and watching this big star, who you just watched in a movie walk from behind stage and you're going oh my goodness, i get to talk to this person. >> rose: you sound like a guy that takes a bit of pride in hard work. >> oh, yeah. >> rose: that is the way to be good. >> uh-huh. i agree with that. >> rose: whether it's football or television or preparing for a guest or -- >> my dad's biggest thing was you don't ask for anything. you earn it. and that's the way a approach everything. i'm not asking for someone to give me anything. if i have the opportunity to earn it, i will do my best and so far that's worked. >> rose: so you thought that you had a chance when they asked to you come back and come back and come back. >> well, i thought i was just filling in until they named a regular guy. >> rose: is that right? >> yeah. what the hell. >> i was just a filler having fun. so keep on coming back. >> rose: just having fun, that is half the game, i'm telling you. >> after the 15th time. >> rose: you have to let people know you're having fun. they have to see it and feel it. this guy knows what he is doing and is having fun. >> i think for this show it's about having fun. about having chemistry, about really sincerely being into the guests of who you are talking to. >> rose: right. >> like not just read from a crew card and going so, tell me about this movie. >> rose: you and kelly hit it off from the beginning. >> from the beginning. and hi met her one time before, years ago, in the hamptons at a party that one of her friends took me too. >> rose: dow lead or wait for her to take the lead. >> i can do either one. >> rose: you can play it either way. >> there are days, i mean she's been there, the seniority, also. so i'm very respectful of her seniority of being there. but at the same time i understand that there are days that she may have been out late. maybe there are days her kids kept her up late. maybe i have been out late. we have to carry each other. that's why it's a team. but coy do either one. and that's why i think one of the reasons that they brought me in to do the job. i think they wanted someone who had-- i don't think they wanted someone that had to be baby-sitted the whole minute that is a lot of work for her. >> rose: is celebrity din&)ent from television than sports. >> yes. >> rose: how is it different. >> you said it earlier, now instead of hey, go giants or jets jet, jet, jets, people try to make me mad, now i get, we love you on kelly, michael. and those are the guys. who used to yell football stuff. now they are talking about they love me in the morning. >> rose: there you go. >> but it is the biggest thrill in the world because that i don't know if it has been a goal but i'm glad that the mind-set is changing. because i think it shows that as an athlete that-- i call myself the accidental athlete. i grew newspaper germany. i played one year high school football. my dad is a retired major in the army. was i supposed to-- was i supposed to be an athlete. i never really thought some. it just happened. >> rose: you were a fat boy. >> yeah, i was a fat boy, exactly. and it just seemed to work out. and now doing the tv thing shows that after athletes we have other interests. we can talk about more than just sports. and i love everything, i love people. i love topics. i lover the news. i love everything. >> rose: love show business. >> exactly. i love goose i-- gossip. i'm into all of it. >> rose: dow a bit of gossip on the show. >> well, behind the scenes we talk to each other but other than that we don't gossip too much. we pretty much go with what is in the newspaper and more or less the thoughts on our mind. >> rose: did anybody say you have to give up the football gig to do this. >> actually, no. and the great thing is it actually worked out perfectly. the tough thing is the football gig is in california so monday through friday i'm here, and friday i fly back. >> rose: friday like 10 or 11:00. >> 11, 12, i'm out and then coming back, get in the studio sunday at 5:30 and done at 5, 6:30. >> rose: how do you prepare for that. >> oh, man. >> rose: chemistry is also important there too. >> reading a lot of notes. understanding the team and the players. >> rose: make a lot of phone calls. >> i make call, i make calls to players but particularly sometimes coaches. but i like to come from a players perspective. each one of us on that desk have our specialty. jimmy is the coach, you know, terry is its joke ster and just terry. howie is more of a serious and analytical breaking down the plays and formations. and then i'm more from the player perspective and fun in a certain sense. and but it works. and chemistry is important there. without the chemistry there, then that show doesn't work. the great thing about that show is it's like the morning show. there's no rehearsal with kelly and i and no rehearsal with us. i don't know what the guys going to say. >> yeah. >> but you have to come prepared, know what the games are, know the points you want to make about the team. >> that is another dangerous thing. you have to come prepared. you have to know its points you twoont make. we do know the order of where who is going to talk in what order. okay, that's fine. i still don't know what they are going to sale. but maybe i have points that i'm thinking man i studied and these are the greatest points ever. no one will have these. by the time they get to me -- >> all the points are gone. what do i do. >> su have to be quick on your feet. but it makes me, it makes all of us a fan of the show like a viewer because we have to pay attention. it's not scripted to where i can sit there and go okay he's going say this and that and has come to me and it's flat. here you are on your feet just like in the morning show. >> rose: so when your father comes to you and says when you become a movie star -- >> the rock better watch out. i'm coming for him. >> rose: have you thought about that? >> of course. >> rose: come on you have. >> of course. i thought about that when i was taking a shower coming ready to come see you. >> rose: i can make you a movie star, you know that. >> oh, let's go. but that would be-- . >> rose: so okay, so your father says when you become a movie star, you have thought about that. how will you make that happen? >> hmmmm. you know what-- . >> rose: by talking about it here that will be one thing. >> you know what, i think i have such respect for people who are movie stars. and that profession, that i would study. i would work at it i wouldn't want to come into a craft that i'm not prepared for. because i want to be respected in it. i don't want people to say oh they just threw him in there because he's doing this. and he's doing that i want to come and show i have the talent to do it. so i would work at it. and obviously having a name helpsment but you got to show you can do it. there are names who failed. >> rose: but they will see something in you. i mean i can see you on a weekly television show where they give you a shot to do something, where you are fits into what they want to be. >> yeah, i just have to find the time. >> rose: exactly right. i mean how many jobs does a guy need. >> i ask you that rrz what do they say, give it toy a busy man, he'll mick it happen. >> that's the way it look. and you know what it's just so funny because when you have multiple jobs you wake up and you go day-by-day. >> rose: you sure do. with you have to make sure you are into the rhythm of the thing, week in and during the week you have to make sure that you are taking care of yourself, you know when to rest. you know when to go. you know when to -- >> exactly. >> rose: cross the ts and dot the is, you be in control of that. don't let yourself be exhausted by someone else. >> yeah. and that's one thing i have had to learn is to say no, to you know, pace myself. and know when to get rest and know when i can go out and i can't. >> rose: you now how important it is if you have to do what you have to do appear live every morning on television. you can't stay up all night every night. >> i can't do it, if i were younger, maybe i would try t now they would be knock on my door and kicking it in because i won't hear anything, i'm snoring. >> rose: what other ambitions do you have? >> you know, i am so interested in so many things. my lifetime dream. >> rose: yeah. >> you know what i would like to do one day. >> rose: what? >> i would like to design and decorate homes. >> rose: would you really? >> yes, i love it. one of my favorite things in the world is to sit with the contractors and the architects and the builders and go through the plans. >> rose: i like to do that too. >> i absolutely love it. have a production company. >> rose: dow. >> have you many any movies. >> we're making a documentary now. >> rose: on. >> on athletes. this was kind of the low hanging fruit but i think it was important to me. i see it as a legacy piece. and it's called end game. and it talks about athletes and you know, you die twice as an athlete. are you given money, you're given fame, this number on your back, are you given fans of a team who become your fans because you play for them. and at the end of it all, sometime when are you ready, when i was when i retired or sometimes when you are not, when they tell you you are no longer good enough it is gone it comes from under you. i i don't care how great of an athlete you were, you are old news. and how do you adjust. >> rose: and to leave before -- >> you die in that sense. and now you have to live the rest of your life and eventually we all go. and we are talking to a lot of guys that see about their transition from sports into the real world. >> rose: absolutely. >> and they've all been so different. >> rose: you can help them bridge that. >> well this is-- yeah, i hope they can watch this film and see different guys in different situations who had to quit, like wayne crebet because of the concussion situation to brett favre who played a long time and kind of teetered back and forth. >> rose: he's retiring, he's not retiring. >> to tony gonzalez and bradshaw and guys like myself who have tiki barber, for a lot of people are going this is guy who was a surefire hit outside of the game of football. he quit on his terms. but how did that go wrong? >> rose: you mean the tv thing. >> yeah. >> rose: i saw him the other day and i said that very thing. >> exactly. so you want the documentary, we will tell you how. >> rose: so there is also this. tell me why you were good? in other words, why were you the all-pro. why were you recognized. was it talent? was it will. was it. >> i think su have to have a little business-- enough of everything but you have to have a level of talent it is not always the most talented players. >> i always say i was never the biggest, strongest or fastest but i have enough of each. and i was known, as a pass rusher because of sacks is, because that is what the glory position, that is what you-- that is like the-- you know, if you get sacked they notice you as being great but i think what i love most about what i did is i felt i was the best at playing the run in the past during my generation. so i love grabbing the 350 pound guy when i'm, you know, he is 100 pounds more than me and throwing him on the ground and making a tackle and getting up, and going yeah, what are you going to do, you can't stop me. and i do miss that i miss that. >> rose: but the biggest thrill for you was the sack. >> no, getting asked. the sacks i'm known for because coy do it. >> but you got passed a guy who thought he could keep awe way from the quarterback. >> yeah, but i lovemaking a tackle on a run. but as i always say the reason i think my situation worked out, my career ended up being what it was, especially in the sacks departments because my desire to hit the quarterback or my desire to make the play on the run was greater than the desire of the guy who was blocking me to keep me from doing it. >> your desire. he was talented too but i just think i wanted it. i needed it. and. >> when you lined up did you say i'm going to beat you. i'm going to get to your quarterback. >> when i lined up i said from the beginning of the game and i really did the coin toss. if you ever go back and look. i was a captain so i had to go out there i was so disinterested in the coin toss. >> they said they would be over there flipping the coin and i am look at the sideline who am i picking a fight with today. like this is what you are going to get today. i was more interested in the play-- players way playing against and the coach who was coaching against me to leave the game and go man, we watched him and we still couldn't stop him. we game planned and still couldn't stop him or the player who never played against me going he was better than he looked on film. that was always pie goal. >> he is better than he looked on film. >> surprised me. >> surprise. >> now what does the nfl need. we've got the issue of confusions, the bounty thing come up. do you know anything about anybody you knew about -- >> i didn't foe about bounties as far as playing to hurt somebody. when i was a young player. >> rose: you were there to take out their quarterback and would have to leave the felt. >> no. >> rose: never, never. >> never. i-- if i did i just got my check at the end of day. they didn't give me anything extra. if i had known that, maybe, hey, you never know. >> rose: if you were playing the packers and aaron rogers -- >> i want to make sure the backup comes in for aaron rogers if i can. but that's just-- . >> rose: how would you do that? >> first of all, you have to get to aaron rogers which is tough. >> rose: yes, can move. >> i don't think there is any definite technique on trying to hurt somebody. i think is just something that happens in the course of a game that is why if i see a great player get injured, i mean it hurts the team and it hurts to see some of your favorite players get hurt but you look at it and go that is the course of what this business is when you played it. and so would it be great if you could hit aaron rogers and they take him to the sideline as long as cocome back for next week, yes. he's not playing me but do you do it on purpose, sleetly not. >> would you think if you do it to them they will do it to you. >> yeah. like spine. >> yeah. and like the bounty stuff. when i was a young player it was okay f you get a tackle on the kickoff, the 20 yard line, a hundred bucks. if you. >> that sin sen difficult stuff. if you catch an interception, a hundred bucks. it was never if you hit this guy we take him out it was never anything like that. that is buntee stuff was discussed it surprised me it really did. and as far as the conclusions-- concussion the nfl has a heads up program. >> they really do. trying to get on top of it. >> and i was originally with it when they first started. i'm on the board of it now. i think it's important because you have so many parents who are scared to let their kids play football. >> and doctors on the field who are you saying he needs to come out. >> but i think you have to start with grass roots as far as kids learning the proper way to taebling. i learned it. >> would you want your son to play football. >> yeah. >> rose: no problem. >> absolutely no problemment but it's a tough sport. if are you going to play it, you have to stick with it. it's a tough sport. >> rose: who was the best you played against. >> best player i ever played against from an offensive tackle, every down was eric williams, dallas cowboys. and he and john runnion, with the eagle. eric was just mean. i mean he beat his mamma up. >> rose: he would beat his mamma. he just-- on that field this was the meanest man you could ever face. off the field-- . >> rose: how do they express meanless. >> they throw the ball down the field and at that point we're spectator and you turn and you look and that guy clubs over the back of the head and then the ref throws a flag and he looks at the ref i don't care, i am going to do it again, throw another one. >> rose: that's not nice. >> that is you what call mean, not nice. >> rose: who was the toughest runningback to get to. >> the toughest quarterback to get to, aaron rogers was tough. >> rose: pretty good. >> troy aikman was tough. >> rose: really? >> you no why, because we get rid of the ball like that i'm like rushing, like two seconds and the ball is guy. i'm like troy, come on man, i'm third. let me smell your sweat. >> rose: slow it down for a minute. >> and the best runningback, barry sanders. not even close. >> rose: never knew why he left. >> i think he was just up set with the situation and surprised everybody. >> rose: yes, de. >> i was happy when he played detroit he wasn't there but i would have loved he played more. >> rose: i never quite figured it out. you knew he was marching to his own drummer. >> but even when he said he was quitting i always felt we come back and he just never did. >> rose: where he is. >> he has a is on the at standford. >> rose: is that right. >> his son got a full scholarship to standford to play football. pretty smart kid and pretty good player. i know his son well. and barry is around. he's around. >> rose: great to you have, michael. >> thank you. >> rose: thank you so much. >> rose: good luck. >> appreciate it, thank you. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org >> funding for charlie rose has been provided by the coca-cola company, supporting this program since 2002. and american express. additional funding provided by these funders . >> announcer: a kqed television production. >> it's like sort of old fisherman's wharf. it reminds me of old san francisco. >> and you'd be a little bit like jean valjean, with the teeth, whatever. >> worth the calories, the cholesterol, and the heart attack you might have. >> it's like an adventure, you know? you got to put on your miner's helmet. >> it reminds me of oatmeal with a touch of wet dog. you say it, sommelier, som-el-yay! >> hi, i'm leslie sbrocco, welcome to "check, please! bay area," the show where regular bay area residents review and talk about their favorite restaurants. we have three guests, each one recommends one of their favorite spots and the other two go to check them out to see what they think. this week, special education teacher kristine bautista is a community member with a passion for the culinary arts. she studies gastronomy and speaks from the heart and soul on any issue relating to food. and children's book author mac barnett can spin a yarn or 13, that's how many stories he's published. creating these tales is hungry business so his happy place is happy hour at the bar of his restaurant. first though, financial adviser brad glasman counsels his friends and family on the best places to eat. he credits his old neighbooo