High profile fundraiser in New York n.p.r. Is Windsor Johnston reporting they are going to school shootings in Wisconsin this week tearing power from member station w w n reports on Tuesday's incident in Oshkosh where student and a high school officer were left with injuries the shooting happened at Ascot West High School after an armed student allegedly confronted a school resource officer. Police Chief Dean Smith says there was an altercation in which a 16 year old student stabbed the officer and the officer then fired his weapon striking the student wants both were taken to local hospitals with non-life threatening injuries the high school was placed on lockdown during the incident but has since been evacuated this shooting comes just a day after a similar one also involving a confrontation with a school resource officer at Waukesha South High School for n.p.r. News I'm Taryn Powell in Milwaukee this is n.p.r. News. From k.q.e.d. News I mean it came lawyers for neighborhood and conservation groups from across the country filed the petition with the federal e.p.a. Offices in San Francisco today the activists want to Fishel is to strictly regulate pollution from industrial plants that create plastics he q.e.d. Sciences Kevin Starr reports the attorneys representing more than $350.00 advocacy groups called for new regulations on the u.s. Plastic manufacturing industry their group says plastic waste police neighborhoods in oceans and that manufacturing facilities emit toxic chemicals and planet warming gases they want e.p.a. To require that plastic makers improve air quality monitors record keeping and public access to information and a.p.a. Spokeswoman in San Francisco said the regional office has shared the petition with national leadership who will review it I'm Kevin start k.q.e.d. News the half sister of a man who died last week after being restrained by law enforcement in Sebastopol says her brother had serious health issues 52 year old Dave Ward from Petaluma died after Sonoma sheriff's deputies used a Taser stun gun on him and attempted a carotid neck restraint during a struggle after a car chase the deputies and Sebastopol police thought he had stolen the car but Ward who owned the vehicle his half sister Catherine Aguilera said her brother had difficulty breathing and walking since a drunken driver hit him on a motorcycle years before she says Ward also had a heart condition and used oxygen and a walker or wheelchair officials plan to release body camp but edge of the incident which is still under investigation I mean Akin k.q.e.d. News support comes from world reader a local nonprofit that uses technology to get children reading everywhere learn how to help a world reader dot work support for n.p.r. Comes from the pajama gram company creators of matching holiday pajamas for the whole family including dogs and cats with Charlie Brown Star Wars and Grinch themes in. It's fleece and flannels available at pajama gram dot com Now the listeners of k.q.e.d. Overnight mostly cloudy a chance of showers watch for some patches of fog as well lows in the low fifty's tomorrow morning showers expected with some patchy fog a slight chance of showers by afternoon time in becoming partly cloudy by afternoon highs expected in the upper fifty's it's 11 o 6 in time for 18 with Joshua Johnson on k.q.e.d. Public Radio. This is one essay I'm Joshua Johnson in Washington education is open doors for many immigrants to build new lives in the u.s. And occasionally it has closed that door as well the visa process for international students can be daunting especially when pursuing graduate degrees the University of Farmington in Michigan marketed itself as a solution to that problem it claimed to offer advanced online stem courses stem science technology engineering and math and international students who hope to extend their student visas applied to Farmington they might not have known that it was a fake storefront and website and they almost certainly did not know that Immigration and Customs Enforcement built that store front the goal deport students trying to illicitly extend their stays in the us in the past year more than 250 students were arrested on immigration violations related to Farmington many left the u.s. Voluntarily others were deported what is this case say about our immigration enforcement systems and for those students who did not deal with Farmington What challenges did they face. Joining us in studio is to Risa cardinal Brown the director of Immigration and cross border policy at the Bipartisan Policy Center she's also a former Department of Homeland Security official who served in both the George w. Bush and Obama administrations to resole come to when I got to be here joining us on the line is Neeraj Warry coo and immigration and religion reporter for The Detroit Free Press who's been covering the Farmington case Neeraj welcome thanks everyone on the show Joshua Niraj Can we just get the basics from you what exactly was the University of Farmington Is there anything else to the description of that that's worth mentioning Yes in 2013 undercover agents with ice specifically with their And. Division known as h.s.i. Set up this fake University in Detroit suburb of Farmington Hills they actually how how the office. And they held they had people posing as university officials the president's name was called I'll leave and he would e-mail prospective students courage and so apply they even went to the extent of putting the university on the Department of Homeland Security's website officially of universities that are legitimate so when prospective students went on the Web site for ice it said to see university was approved to participate in this program so they went to great lengths to give the public to back to students that it's a legitimate university Now we noted that the sting operation did not start under the trumpet ministration So these stings with the preparation for this began nearer to the end of the Obama administration right correct and I happened to start in 2015 according to federal prosecutors in January of 2006 team they incorporated the university in the state of Michigan according to records according to state records so what kinds of students would be applying to Farmington Is there a particular profile or do they fit a particular description in terms of who tried to become part of this fake university Well it was primarily advertised as a stem associated university for tech and computer fields most of the students were from India Telugu speaking from a state in India Cullen's are per day she and many of them were in previous other other programs and the country and master's programs are trying to get degrees so they can either work in America or stay here are some of them did want to go back to India so that was a gentle profile the students who applied walk us through what happened to the students in the course of the sting operations so they thought about getting advanced stem degrees science technology engineering and math they see Farmington listed on the h.s. His website then what happens. Right and then they also check out the credit ation agency which approves these universities and that to approve the university in fact that accreditation agency was working with d.h. Asked What's with Vice unknown to the students of course so when they apply to it and they went in they were stuck thought that there was going to be classes on site and there are some some cases they have online classes with these programs and some of them they have physical class site on location so some of the students to get suspicious when there weren't any physical classes meeting a specific location and some try to transfer some they transfer out and then this then the arrests happened in January of this year I saw arrested more about $100.00 students found priests $250.00 total in terms of the total number of arrests and before I come to 3 so we should know there are 2 groups of people who were prosecuted in this case there were the students and then also the recruiters write the recruiters or they arrested 8 recruiters and charged criminally and they're sort of separate from the 250 students who didn't only faced immigration violations but they faced some criminal charges out of the $87.00 have been sent so far and the last one is going to be sentenced in January and those cases that they say that defense attorneys say the 2 were entrapped but that's a little bit different of a case because of those and those situations they were working with the university officials to sort of attract more students but of course they didn't know if university was fake as well according to the defense attorneys so the recruiters were not working for the h.s. Right they were not undercover agents they were not working for th S.R.I.'s they too were did not know it was a fake operation to Risa Karna Brown What kind of immigration violations are at issue here even the ones that may have been committed or the ones that d.h. S. Was presumably trying to catch or. So the status of foreign students in the United States is entirely dependent on their relationship to the school or university in which they are attending So as long as they they have requirements about attending schools that are only approved by ice they have to maintain a specific course load or have authorization from v.h.s. To have a lower course load than full time it must include and be mostly in person classes so full online caught coursework is not allowed. And if they depart that university or change universities without prior authorization they can lose their status so in this case there are 2 different types of immigration violations that might be at play one is the fact that the university they were attending was not in fact a real university so their status being dependent on that university goes away when the university goes away the 2nd is whether or not immigration customs enforcement believed they knew that the university did not offer the right kind of courses and signed up anyway in which case they were charged with perpetrating fraud on the government on their immigration status I think it was part of the argument in terms of why the student should be deported that supposedly they did know Yes Supposedly they did know but the only way for that to challenge is via immigration court so you mention in your opening into the reporting that most of these students accepted what is called voluntary departure so when they are charged with being deportable they the government can offer the ability for them to just leave the country without any further immigration consequences that is the government's discretion and apparently they offer that to many students and they just chose to go home rather than fight it but some are fighting this in immigration court and that is where a possible defense might lie that they did not know or could not have known that this was a fraudulent university particularly if it was noted on the ice website that it had been approved by ice and and or that have been duped but that's going to be up to an immigration judge to. Determine whether or not that's grounds for them to say Yeah according to a statement that ice sent us ice officials in Detroit sent us there were about $250.00 students apprehended on charges related to Farmington about 4 out of 5 were granted voluntary departure and left the us of the remainder about half of them got a final removal order and the remaining students have either filed for some sort of relief or are contesting their removals with the executive office for immigration review we also asked whether or not it considers this thing a form of entrapment which some of the defendants in these cases have argued that it is ice declined to comment on that in its statement back to us now to research part of what it did note is that there are 2 kinds of pieces that are granted to non immigrant students f. Visas and visas talk about what these visas are and what is involved in getting them and keeping them short So in essence these is for academics students students and who are attending universities colleges degree granting institutions certain other types of professional. Certification can call qualify but it's academic related and these is are for vocational or technical schools usually And there are a lot fewer of those issued each year my understanding was that this school was reporting to be an f. Granting university has a degree granting University when it gets to a quick comment before we pause Greda emailed foreign students who overstay their visas Why do they merit some special measure of compassion there are legal pads to apply for a visa extension but Farmington was not one of them and the applicants were seeking what Farmington advertised a dodgy way to stay in the u.s. To reason so that the duration of status for a student is as again based on them continuing a course of work or in gay. Work Authorization that's authorized consequent to their student status something called optional practical training if you have completed your course of study and want to stay in the United States then yes you need to either seek a further course of study at another institution or possibly a work visa with an employer who can sponsor you but it's not necessarily that easy to do in this case. The students were seeking a further course of study and again without knowing the details of any individual cases this university did purport to be a valid university approved by Immigration Customs Enforcement and so if that is the basis in order to qualify there's not a silly reason for them to doubt that it was a legitimate place much more for us to discuss as we continue with Theresa cardinal Brown the former d.h. S official and director of Immigration and cross border policy at the Bipartisan Policy Center and who covers immigration for the Detroit Free Press I'm Joshua Johnson and you're listening to one from. N.p.r. . Hi Joe now. I am frustrated that it's always the little guy that seems to get in trouble. If there are fraudulent universities go after them when there were several poultry workers. Illegally working well they are trouble but what about why here. We are working. With. Just about a minute on k.q.e.d. Public radio support. Sleep works the store that bases its design. Including comfort and support. For. Work. From golf balls. On the Oregon coast a local artist is using plastic garbage that washes ashore. On the. Wednesday morning between 3 and 7. The House Judiciary Committee is holding a hearing on the constitutional grounds for presidential. We invite you to tune indicate. Special Coverage from n.p.r. News the coverage begins Wednesday morning at 7 right here Michael state. Public radio 88.5 f.m. The 20 minutes after 11. Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from the Alfred p. Sloan Foundation bridging science and the arts by supporting science themed musicals such as Einstein's Dreams running through December 14th x. 5959 theaters more at Sloan dot org from the William t. Grant foundation supporting research to improve the lives of young people more information is available at w.t. Grant Foundation dot org And from listeners like you who donate to this n.p.r. Station. This is one I'm Joshua Johnson were discussing the ice sting targeting international students in Michigan and what that says about some of the difficulties of being a foreign student in the u.s. With Theresa cardinal Brown a former d.h. Us official now with the Bipartisan Policy Center and Iraj Warry coo of the Detroit Free Press Scott tweeted I worked with a significant number of international students as a graduate assistant at a prestigious music school the issues I saw my students navigate had more to do with the lack of institutional supports to ensure student success a significant number of failed in my classes as a result Scott I hear you on that and that might be a good place to bring in another voice in our conversation also with us in studio is sent in by car director of international student scholar services at American University in Washington American owns the license to w a n u the station that produces one a sentiment into the program thank you thank you for having me with regards to Scott's comment I wonder how you'd react to that in terms of stepping back from this case in Michigan but just for international students in general having a lack of institutional supports to ensure their success does that ring true to you absolutely international students are trying to navigate a system that is highly decentralized and most of them are not used to that so it's up to us is institutions to try to help then at that education system on campus which might be very different than the neighboring campus in the same city so institutional support is paramount in students sexists talk about what happens if a un international student arrives here I mean a u is a high I think we're in d.c. So it's highly international city we have a School of International Studies which is highly prestigious so we get kids from all over the world but talk about what happens when an international student arrives at a you are finally getting the. You know getting your education under way what happens should we take the responsibility as an institution to create immigration documents right to bring those students to the United States to our own institution so that the responsibility continuous through orienting them to the institution because we are teaching them to have this institution operates of American classroom education is different maybe then that off but they are used to and then have to live in our. Tortillas it's it's a lot of fun not that they're trying to navigate so we have orientations that continuous throughout the semester dip through different programs we have also print information as well as what shops continuing throughout the semester it also meant that the end of the semester but the 1st semester is very very important Ekta that is the advocacy that we have to do it all just of the campus we told partners and I'm very proud to say that the institution is very receptive to those you know challenges that they have to get up to because it is a challenge like you said we are bringing students from all over the world and the challenge is stemming from the differences in education systems mostly And I just want to be clear when you mention the immigration documents this may go without saying but just to be clear about that the university and immigration are in communication in terms of the permissions for that student to be in the u.s. So there are documents that come from the university say hey ice this student is here for a reason we're Valjean for their presence in the u.s. a Ticket how hard is it to get a student visa. That's a very good question for a u.s. Consulate but I can tell you what we need to do to help the student apply in a pain a student visa the 1st thing 1st to be able to rise by each is to create u.s. Government documents immigration documents in this case in to any put in a form visa that the sense students information about have to apply for a student visa it in this consul 8 that ever they are applying and that are that helpful tips that the State Department shares with us community almost 50 years these are the reasons why students are day night and we make that information available to our students the also ask them to a bring certain documentation to do visa interview and most of the times our students are able to obtain the sauce it a consummate So you are generating documents for immigration yes you're walking the students through the system so that they can get through their education so as an educational as a degree granting institution they really have to lean on the university very very heavily just to survive in the system of a very very good stay way of saying that absolutely. A lot of colleges I think are eager to have international students I mean some university systems have said they want more international students because international students pay more than in-state students I mean got books to balance but setting that aside having international students I think is a good thing for university is a feather in the cap even though there's a lot of process and bureaucracy to work through to get them to keep them and then graduate sure for most major degree granting institutions in the United States having a foreign student population is evidence of the quality of that education they are able to attract students who are choosing to study outside their country of nationality and could go anywhere in the world and chose to come to. To not in the United States but to that institution maybe it's because their programs are special they have advanced studies and certain things and of course you know the opportunity comes the United States and possibly for many of these students to stay and work is is an enticement particularly in the stem in the stem fields international students have a lot of innovation and a lot of you know research and study that helps keep the United States at the forefront of a lot of technical and innovation and that's also a feather in the cap for universities when the students are publishing when they are getting patents for their work etc etc It also brings diversity to the student body. Most colleges and universities see themselves as places where young people encounter the world for the 1st time outside of their you know towns where they grew up in their households and seeing a bigger slice of that world than even their state and their neighborhood or their city by having international students there is also part of the university experience and there's a lot of reasons why universities want international students kind it's their last point you just made Michel emailed as an economics student at the University of Missouri many of my peers were international students I watched as one of my better friends outworked and outperformed me but it was repeatedly turned down for jobs as employers did not want to sponsor an entry level position for him he ended up with a choice of returning to Mexico City or going to graduate school I am now an attorney and appreciate the rule of law but this sting operation seems to be a solution in search of a problem while the real issue is a broken system which makes it difficult for talented people who are already here to stay here could you respond to Michael's comment in terms of the way that folks in the area have reacted to this whether people feel this was a solution in search of a problem or a legitimate solution to a real problem. Yes I think what Mike said. What Michael said resonates with people that I've talked with me feel that the way that this operation was done was unfair according to defense attorneys and others in other words if there is a problem with shady schools Well then shut them down right if you have the app universities or like a diploma mill you know deal with them in your own way but to set up this whole fake university and then more of them and then arrest them I think that's a common one and that was concerning was the way their arrests were done next time we arrested all these people many of whom most of them did not have any criminal records put them in jail you know in some cases they were housed with you know hardened criminals some of them complained of being mistreated according to reports so the way it was done was kind of questionable and I think it kind of concerned that there's a concern that it's going to turn off people from coming to United States that people will be reluctant to apply for programs because they want to if it's real like what if they are applying for university and it turns out it's a fake operation you know there's no way for them to know if they see it on the Web site they're part of Homeland Security's Web site I think it's legitimate So those are the concerns that some have about the ramifications of how this on your watch is there any sense of how common these kinds of sting operations are well there was another one done in New Jersey was called the University of North future z. Or they had they also created a fake university in that case a not to mass arrest it was handled differently they did not round them up in the way they did under did it this year so that was held differently in that case there's been a lawsuit filed by some of the students at the fake university they're claiming that they were tricked into this operation and so We'll 'd see how that lawsuit plays out I should note again we did invite ice to participate it declined but sent us a statement about the arrests and about the legal process that is still ongoing part of the statement reads quote The f. One nonimmigrant students is there to. Nation the immigration system arrested for immigration violations as part of this operation were not invalid status because they were not enrolled in the full course of study as required by federal regulations the students were initially admitted into the United States to attend a school certified by the student and exchange visitor program but later transferred to the University of Farmington which offered no academic or vocational programs of any kind since the school did not offer courses or conferred degrees the enrollees were simply using the f one program as a pay to stay scheme unquote Neeraj is there any sense that the students who were caught up in this dragnet knew that Farmington was fake and enrolled anyway well they didn't I don't think they knew according to defense attorneys that they knew that it was a fake operation created by ice that was something that they were not aware of and I think into it was a lot of them when they were arrested that this was a sting operation. Some of them did have suspicions when they didn't have a physical location that we know that some of the students were asking to fit university you know do you have a physical side of your classes and so some of them became suspicious enough that they transferred out or try to transfer but a lot of them have been pretty quickly you know they may have been rolled and 2018 and just a few months later they were arrested by ice so they didn't get time to transfer out but it's unclear you know I don't think it's a case that they knew it was created by according to defense attorneys to resort to that point about the diploma mills Judith emailed sorry to disillusion you but individuals do and always have tried to get visas through fake universities don't students who want to stay bear responsibility for researching the universities they apply to I'm not a fan of sting operations and detest the n.t. Immigrant actions of this administration but it is legitimate to enforce u.s. Laws about student visas what about that cerise of particularly how. Maybe those laws have been enforced in other ways besides you know this kind of sting operation sure so 2 things understand in the immigration system the burden is almost always on the foreign national to show that they are authorized to stay in the United States so in this case yes the burden is on the individual to know the rules and apply them appropriately and but I think that one of the questions about this particular operation is that it would have been very difficult maybe for them to know that the university was fake primarily because ice went through the trouble of listing them on its own website in order to qualify as an institution that can issue immigration documents the institution has to have a physical location and has to offer courses that are in person classes so by giving it that air of legitimacy by by putting it on its own website it was telling students well if I suppose it must be a legitimate place it's another thing to say that it's a diploma mill that is Aubrey tossing something that doesn't exist and as Neeraj mentioned some of the students were suspicious about that there is a requirement for physical classes in physical classrooms I'm sorry clarify that idea of a diploma mill short a diploma mill is a term it's not a legal term but it's a term that's that's basically given to places that advertise basically selling diplomas when you don't have to do the work it's not necessarily a religion at accredited institution it could be a technical school or of occasional school there's been a lot of issues with many of them the for profit schools that have been closed down in recent years even domestically because the degrees are certifications are offering really aren't very good and not quite not issued valid qualifications and I since ice has also shut down and ejected from the student visa program universities that haven't met the qualifications where they credit ation it Organization for example has has d. Accredited them or itself has gone away. Phenome I'd love to get your sense of the responsibility and the fault in this case we've got a number of listeners who asked about that very thing including Grady Here's what Grady left in the inbox My name is Grady I heard on n.p.r. This morning regarding an entrapment case where the Homeland Security put together a fake university and a foreign student apply there in order to stay in the United States longer on their student base that's still a little shaky on both and frankly although the fake university was put together perhaps by Homeland Security they still wanted to stay in the indicted States under false pretense. Grady Thanks for calling in just to correct part of what he said it was not 8 foreign students there were 8 recruiter who were charged in this scheme there were hundreds of students who are caught up in this at least are about 250 as far as we know but sent and what about this in terms of their potentially being a little bit of fault on both sides of us should 1st of all if articulations deal of students to move from one degree to another or one institution 10 years that I was a strict time line c.e.v. Came v.h.d. Must do that you know moment in this case students probably that being a valid status in David trying to transfer out I don't know the details but it's pretty much allowed by the regulations idea Creevy terrorists out that students are ultimately responsible for the immigration status and that city consistent message that we give to students. I do you also know that students are not inherently a vehicle for a lot of things that you know venal here that for the you lie on the rings to 2 shoes the rely on the government you know cite in the chick that if this institution was listed on the sh his site is a h.s. Approved institution I think the student will just trust that information Neeraj What about the argument from prosecutors that this was a as ice put it a paid to stay arrangement that the students knew what they were getting into was there any evidence of that oh well I see you know does make the argument that the students should have known it was a fake university there wasn't much of a merit and you know I see their point from their perspective or they're trying to crack down on Friday what universities and what they call a pay to stay operation so you know that they do have a concern about the sort of shady operations universities that are taking place but I guess in the defense of the students some of the attorneys argue that you know the even those. I had an inkling that something was wrong and they try to rectify we're still getting in trouble someone some cases you had students were emailing the state university saying hey you know where were the physical laws they close the going to happen are they going to happen soon and you know we're sui emailed them back and these are obviously undercover agents saying oh they're coming or it's coming you know so they don't know what to do because they keep disappearing that it's a legitimate universities on the website but I guess that once you know once you are in universities kind of hard to get out well that's the problem that you're kind of stuck in this situation Ross tweeted setting aside the Byzantine legalities of our immigration system how can anyone consider this an ethical way to engage in enforcement good question we'll talk about that when we continue our conversation about what this says in terms of immigration and education in the u.s. . I might end it here and I've been international you get ready for more I have coming from Delhi I recall abstracts will let you figure out how to do the right thing and I can imagine a lot of the international events we're looking at Cheney might act but. By letting it present that I can totally how they were caught off and I think they ought with legal and fair target then in that way. The final segment of one a just ahead then we'll have the rebroadcast of all things considered for you of course at midnight with the latest from n.p.r. News My name is Michael state and support. 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We'll continue in a moment after a quick heads up about some morrow's program Robin Crawford has a new memoir on her friendship with Whitney Houston the late pop superstar kept her relationship with Crawford secret all her life Houston's legacy has evolved since she died in 2012 how do you reflect on her legacy now especially in light of Crawford story leave us a voicemail 855-2361 egg one egg we'd also love to hear from you if you interacted with Houston or Crawford directly tell us your story 855236181 egg or send us an audio file with our act one a vox pop We will speak to Robin Crawford and share some of your stories tomorrow on one. Back now to our conversation with to Risa cardinal Browne Neeraj Warry cool and cinema car to recent wonder if you could respond to this one from Fred who emailed I'm very confused by this seeking a further course of study is a legal way to remain in the country the students did so so far as they knew so how can they possibly be charged with a crime as for ISIS contention that some of the students knew it was a phony university given the extraordinary lengths to which ice went to give it the appearance of legitimacy ISIS argument their rings exceedingly hollow Theresa Well 1st thing I would say is that students weren't charged with any crimes violating immigration laws administrative law violation they were charged with being ripped deportable from the United States and then were either deported or are fighting deportation or some are allowed to voluntarily leave there is no criminal charges filed against any students and I just want to reiterate that because it gets confusing a lot the only criminal charges far as we know were filed against the recruiters who as I believe are u.s. Entities. But the the issue is is I think as he said although the immigration law places the burden on the foreign nationals who maintain their status there's enough about this to say that students probably were very confused about the status of this university it's unclear some of them may have been aware that what they were trying to do was at least shady but again because the university wasn't valid and they were not in rolled in a valid university they did not have valid status that is the issue when you don't have valid status you are required to leave the country one way or the other some How hard is it if you're an international student to tell a real accredited school from a fake accredited school like Farmington setting aside like you know George Sally is a real school but some of the schools that may not have as high a public profile How hard is it to actually know that you're on solid ground it's a killer pretty heart on this this to schools you know. Shares that information with students and or it is very visible on your site and if you look at different institutions you know for the same information on data vet sites it's very difficult to find the very same information on different institutions sites so that's why students do rely on their own institution if they are here they do bring to us a form saying that I've been admitted to this institution can you transfer me thirst question is is this treated take is this you know his have proved and he had done chicle that information. Check it themselves they have to check it themselves and the have access to that information so now when we talk about this accreditation sort of like Who are we talking about we are talking about how treated in the agencies in the United States for example for us it is Middle States right. This one so they are decrease our record nice then the chase approval is another one that they must Oh I understand so the accreditation is for the actual degree but it is a legitimate degree granting institution of a certain quality which is separate from the immigration certification that they are allowed to comment study at this place yes so this kind of 2 layers of it are you allowed to come to this university at all from another country and then will this university if you are admitted give you a degree that is acceptable for the American workforce Joshua I would just offer that you would flip that around that an institution must be accredited to be approved by d.h. Us to accept foreign students and if an institution loses its accreditation it can lose the ability to accept foreign students from v.h.s. To you emailed I was an international student who studied in Ohio as an f one visa student my experience in education was largely positive but I think most people don't realize how stressful it was to navigate America's complex immigration system is ongoing stress becomes prevail in everyday life and I often stressed about. Committing minor infractions that would potentially lead to huge consequences i.e. Being deported sent him I see you nodding to that yes I interviewed I mention the feed off to a non then in Vegas and to students in the queue at my institution the ask questions that's the number one thing that comes up that futile making a mistake old the time that full coming back to All roof is sold to time ot lying resources that fee have because it is very difficult things are changing you know maybe taking nations are not changing that creates the guidance is changing and they have prominent informations for our students so that's fair v.t. Have the responsibility to bring that information to our students and to have that trust you tell our students that anything that you know has an implication for your mediations that use be out here to share that information to Neeraj How is the story affected immigrant communities in Michigan that you cover particularly those who maybe are 1st or 2nd generation Americans they've worked real hard been able to send their children to college and have tried to play by the rules very very carefully the whole time I can only imagine how they're reacting to this so yes it's causing some concern it's causing a lot of confusion because people who are in these programs are of course fearful What if their university turns out to be fake you know there is a worry that. They may be thrown out of status. In some cases the Indian American community has raised concerns about it they've written letters to Hamas official expressing concerns but there has not been any sort of legal action no a lawsuit no legal case filed that hasn't gotten as much attention as other cases immigration cases have there might be a change player things have gotten more attention this month one thing I would add about accreditation issue what's interesting about this case is that the credit. Ation agency was secretly working with the undercover operation d h s a the problem and security have been worked to pose a sort of a fake university is that raises questions also about these some of these credit Asian agencies are they do they have universes listed as being legitimate there they're actually working for the government and so we don't know what's happening with other universities potentially to research is what these accredited the chin agencies did legal is it legal for an accreditation agency to take part in a law enforcement investigation like this I don't know that about legality I think one thing to understand is accreditation agencies are their private organizations they're not governmental organizations and is it ethical is probably a different question if you are an accreditation agency and you accredited institution that is later found out to be fraudulent or fake the reputation of that accreditation agency is at stake in every other institution accredited by that organization now is probably thinking does my association with that accreditation agency cause me problems I think that's where it's going to have issues and other institutions that are working with that accreditation agency would rightly be worried because there's a that now there's a concern that this isn't that this accreditation agency is willing to you know put its name on what is a fake even in the name of law enforcement well and you can't not be accredited and you can't not be accorded it so as a university you're kind of you're kind of painted into a corner in a way yeah and I think the other thing to understand about this is is you know as you mentioned there are different types of institutions in the United States we've seen in the last decade a growth and explosion of online organizations and institutions some are affiliated with major degree granting institutions others are privately owned and for profit that only grant degrees online and so that leads to further confusion among people who are looking for advanced education just generally and then add to. That if you're a foreign student not familiar with the u.s. System relying on governmental information and information from the institutions that are supposed to be validating all of this to see whether or not it's appropriate institution to study and cinnamon must be challenging being a university in the middle of all of this Andre emailed I've seen both sides of this issue for my wife who I met while she was on her in the stem field at the University of Florida and there's a small business owner trying to apply for a work visa for one of our employees my wife feel strongly that she was able to follow the rules of how to work and study here and so should other people be held to the same standard and try to apply for a work visa as a small company we were amazed with the flooding of fake and or redundant foreign applications that made it very hard for us to have our employees who had family here as well as lived in the u.s. 5 months out of the year we need to focus on facilitating the legal immigration process to keep those who have waited in line so well yes this students who are responsible for the huge imitation status but it's a joint responsibility for the institutions bringing those students here beyond required to educate them sheriff and the information that they must know all you know if they're to stay in status to stay in status that are civil conditions to meet to you know to be in place and the students are available for that while I am not saying that students and. Intension is a violating their status but there are sometimes extraordinary 2nd thoughts there are sometimes you know these are strict if it deadlines that maybe in case of employment for example they have promised an employment lie they I don't know p.t. But their employment doesn't come to me at the last minute in southern they student this is eating occasions that is and then Neeraj Andre also kind of makes the point that this is part of a much larger immigration challenge that we have in the u.s. That these students are caught up in an issue that is way way way bigger than just them. Correct I mean the broader issue of you know whether we're meeting too many immigrants those are legitimate issues to be discussed I think the concern here is how they went about doing it kind of boring them and then Trekkie them my view upon what they say to university you know shut it down or crack down on it but there is some are making argument don't go to the extent of Lauren the Mandan creating this fake operation then tricking them essentially one listener who asked to remain anonymous e-mailed having lived in the United Arab Emirates and worked in Vietnam I can tell you it is very hard to discern a fake organization in a very different language and culture the seal of approval of the on the d.h.s.s. Website makes this shameful I am all for rooting out dishonest people with student visas but this is not the way let's look forward a little bit Neeraj what happens now in this case for the students who are fighting to stay in the u.s. For the recruiters who face criminal charges what are some of the next steps we should keep an eye out for. Well in some of the cases they're still going to be heard before an immigration judge the last engine thing for they recruiters is going to be next month in January in Detroit. One thing I would add is that some of them quote left on what's called of alternate departure are not being allowed back in the reason that's significant is that bulky departure is supposed to be better than deportation because it allows the immigrant to potentially get back into night States but according to a defense attorney I spoke to at least 2 cases that he knows of they're not being allowed back in so it seems like they're being blacklisted even if they had a voluntary departure So that's concerning some they pay my view perm way excluded from entering the United States back again when thing I would add is a lot of them are from rural backgrounds right they came from farming backgrounds very you know they had hard lives and they were trying to improve themselves and now of course they're in death in some cases because they had to issue from other universities and you know ice got millions of dollars out of this right because they were paying too Asian they were paying you know an average $12000.00 here to the state university and all that's money they have lost and it went to the u.s. Government. So that's actually I'm glad you mentioned in your eyes that goes right to a question I was just about to ask you for Margaret who emailed this kind of sanction to government treasury to quote unquote catch otherwise illegal immigrants is reprehensible with these stories coming to light I want to know exactly what was done with the thousands and thousands of dollars collected for tuition from the prospective students was it used to continue funding questionable ice programs was it turned over to the u.s. Treasury to pay down the national debt so erogenous money just went to the u.s. Government the money they spent on tuitions for these phony degrees exactly because they were paying on average you know $12000.00 a year and you had $600.00 plus students enrolled so if you do the math that comes out to millions of dollars at the risk of are meant to look and from there's I don't know where that money is where the money is going to go I'm assuming it so what p.h.s. But you know there's been a lawsuit filed channeling back so it's recent this effects many many students although I'm not sure how many students are here on student student visas how do you know how large the population is roughly in the last year or about 350000 new student visas were issued that doesn't count the numbers that are already in the United States that's actually a decrease from several years ago where we had more than 600000 new student visas we've actually seen a decline in international students in the United States so it's it's still a fair number but it's it's declining sent Do you want to can I do I do you have the numbers to live on the most recent Open Doors release it's over of a 1000000 the international students in the United States yes Terry say scoring that there is a slight decrease the decreases in intro students but students who are on a p.t. Optional practical training do you see a slight increase so to reset what does this mean going forward for international students Bill ask how can anyone trust the list v.h.s. Provides Now how many others listed are fake universities how many will be Teresa what does this mean in a larger. Since going forward for international students who we meet in this country Yeah I mean the NAFTA which is the Association of International educators says that foreign students can join $28000.00 contributed about 35000000000 dollars to the economy so it's it is it is a help to United States I think there's a couple things you know there's a saying that trust it's a long time to earn and a 2nd to lose and I think what you're you're submitter said about you know how can we trust the government agency when they've done this that's it that's an open question I think there are a lot of uphill wins for foreign students coming to the United States right now there is a lot as I mentioned a lot of competition from other parts of the world to to entice students to study there you have some countries that are actively encouraging their students not to study abroad China for example in the United States is making it more difficult for some of them to come to the United States with that in programs and things like that and so I think that over time these kinds of things just make students think again you know the United States is still a destination of choice for millions of foreign students around the world but we no longer can presume that status is untouchable to Risa cardinal Brown the director of Immigration and cross border policy at the Bipartisan Policy Center to research thanks for being with us thank you for having me Neeraj Warry coo who covers immigration and religion for The Detroit Free Press Neeraj Thank you. Thanks for going to show and send him a card the director of international student and scholar services at American University sent of make you think put him into this conversation was produced by station Brown to learn more about her and the rest of our team go to the one a dot for this program comes to you from w a n u part of American University distributed by n.p.r. I'm Joshua Johnson and this is one a. Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from the little market offering artisan made goods and home decor with a commitment to fair trade a nonprofit founded by women to empower female artisans in marginalized communities around the world more at the Little Market dot com and from Americans for the Arts committed to transforming America's communities through the arts and arts education supporting the nonprofit arts industry which employs 4600000 people nationwide learn more Americans for the Arts dot org. I'm Joshua Johnson Whitney Houston's relationship with her childhood friend Robin Crawford lasted decades what does Crawford's memoir add to Houston's like a c Next time on one a and the next time for money is a Wednesday night at 11 right here all things considered the rebroadcast on the way next and n.p.r. News for you to support for k.q.e.d. Comes from digital foundry software consulting helping global businesses design build and run innovative software since 1902 more online a digital foundry dot com p.g. And e. Reminding customers to stay away from downed power lines if a power line falls on a car or near the home stay inside and warn others to keep far away and to report a downed power line call 911 1st and then call p.g. And e. . I'm Greg Dalton on Climate One Wednesday night the planet's forests are being destroyed by wildfires and consumerism why should we care about the fate of trees half a world away the forest is alive if we don't treat it as a commodity if we treat it as a living thing like and what another person essentially then it elevates the level of respect that we have for a scorched earth culture and climate under siege Wednesday night at 8 in climate one from the Commonwealth. Showers expected to increase tonight into Wednesday morning especially over the Central Coast of the National Weather Service says a more potent system is expected to arrive on Friday. K.q.e.d. San Francisco and North Highlands Sacramento and relied on my at k.q.e.d. Dot org at midnight. The founders had. Provided for a remedy for presidential misconduct the House Intelligence Committee releases its report on the impeachment inquiry concluding the president used the powers of his office for political gain It's Tuesday December 3rd and this is All Things Considered. And I'm saying this our Intelligence Committee chair Adam Schiff sits down with n.p.r. Also Syrian residents say the raid that killed an ISIS leader also killed civilians analysts say there could be consequences. Then they join ISIS and this just becomes a spiral for everyone and the London Bridge attack raises questions about convicted terrorists released from prison and reentering society to monitor an individual 21st 7 you need your own 25 for $35.00 officers it's impossible to monitor functions of individuals now. Live from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm she Stevens the House impeachment inquiry enters another stage later today when the Judiciary Committee begins its hearings on the probe into President Trump's dealings with the Ukraine as N.P.R.'s Myles parks reports the panel will hear from a number of law professors on what constitutes an impeachable offense the Constitution is actually fairly veg on what specific actions should be considered impeachable describing them only as treason bribery and other high crimes and misdemeanors legal experts from Harvard Stanford at the University of North Carolina and George Washington University will weigh in on whether president trumps actions toward Ukraine could fall into those categories now the Intelligence Committee has released its investigative report it's up to the judiciary panel to determine which if any articles of impeachment should be drafted the committee also features some of the president's staunchest defenders including Jim Jordan from Ohio and Doug Collins from Georgia miles Parks' n.p.r. News Washington a federal appeals court is ordering Dorchin bank and Capital One to comply with congressional subpoenas for nearly 10 years worth of President Trump's financial records but N.P.R.'s Bobbie Allen reports that the matter is expected to join other similar cases pending before the u.s. Supreme Court the appeals court says the banks must provide congressional committees with sweeping financial records they include individual transactions like what checks Trump or.