In telecommunications and eavesdropping that's more than indiscretion that's a security risk but but why attack you Mr Holmes they didn't question anything you said in question What conversation you overheard and bastard saw online indeed didn't question what you said he had knowledge that the one thing the president wanted to know the day after that conversation was Alinsky was is he going to do the investigations and so on and said yes he'll do anything you asked they don't question that so why attack you they didn't question your testimony when you said. And I think you asked about the silent does Donald Trump give up blank and I would like to use the word here about Ukraine and he said he doesn't give a blank about Ukraine he only cares about the big stuff and you said well there's some big stuff here Ukraine's at war with Russia that's kind of big stuff and his answer was No no no no no he cares about the big stuff that matters to him his personal interests like the Biden investigation the Julie want Giuliani wants I mean one question posed by your testimony Mr Holmes is what do we care about do we care about the big stuff like the Constitution like an oath of office or do we only care now about party what do we care about but let's let's go beyond your testimony today let's look at the bigger picture what do we know now after these depositions these secret depositions and people watching at home might not know that in these secret depositions which apparently no one else is allowed to hear no members are allowed to participate it's just secret apparently sounds like it's just me and the witness. Only. Over $100.00 members of Congress are able to participate in those secret depositions and the minority was just so. Unable to participate they got the same time they got in these open hearings it was the same format that was the secret star chamber that you marry so much about. So what what do we learn through these depositions and through the testimony because so much of this is really undisputed we learned that a dedicated public servant name Marie Yvonne of edge known for fighting corruption widely respected throughout the diplomatic corps was ruthlessly smeared by Rudy Giuliani by the president's own son by their friends on Fox primetime and a whole host of other characters her reputation was Solly so they could get her out of the way which they did and you're right it was gratuitous The president could have gotten rid of her any time he wanted but that's not enough for this president no he has to smear and destroy those that get it his way and if someone fighting corruption in Ukraine was getting in his way so she's got she's gone and this makes way almost immediately there after she leaves the 3 amigos come in 3 amigos 2 of whom never made the connection that Barisan means Biden it took to Morrison all of 30 seconds on Google to figure that out but what we're to believe I guess that in all the companies and all the world Rudy Giuliani just happens to be interested in this one that's that's absurd the interest of course was in an investigation of Donald Trump survival one that he apparently feared the most. And they were willing to do whatever was necessary to get Ukraine to do that dirty work to do that political investigation and so it began we're not going to set up a phone call until you'd make certain commitments that was investor songlines testimony the 1st quid pro quo was actually just getting on the phone with President Trump and then there was the quid pro quo involving the White House meeting and witness after witness and none of my colleagues contested this talked about just how important that meeting was to the president of Ukraine and why they're at war with Russia and their most important ally is the United States and the most important person in the United States that relationship is the president of the United States and of President Selenski can show that he has a good relationship with the president United States it means to his people that this new president has the support of the most important patron and it means to the Russians that we have their back this president this new president who has negotiated with a far superior power that is invaded his country is going into a negotiation with Putin over how to resolve this conflict whether he has good leverage or lousy leverage to persons depends on whether the Russians think he has a relationship with the president and the president wouldn't give him that not without getting something in return wouldn't give him that official act that White House meeting without getting something in return and that return was investigations of his rival that would help his reelection an official act or something of clear value and something very important the big stuff as saw online explain to you Mr Holmes to help his campaign now we also heard abundant testimony about the other quid pro quo the withholding of security assistance which no one can explain. There's no debate among my colleagues everyone in the n.s.c. In the State Department a Defense Department everyone's support has everyone all the reviews that need to be done to make sure that Ukraine was meeting at Santa corruption standards had been done and they had found to meet the criteria the age should have been released but it was withheld and no one could understand or get a clear explanation for why until it became clear to everyone. It's all about the investigations it's all about the leverage and if there was any doubt about it the man closest to the president who meets with him every day Mick Mulvaney erased all doubt you're darn right yes we talked about the 2016 election investigation and yes this was in the context of holding up the military aid and you know just get used to it or just get over it or whatever it was he said because that's how we roll it was are my words not his but that's the import Yeah there's going to be politics and just get over it well if we care about the big stuff we can't just get over it now my colleagues have had a lot of defenses to all of this evidence which has piled up day after day after day and it's amazing they hear you testified Mr Holmes it was clear that the security systems was being withheld was clear to all of the Americans it was clear to the Ukrainians you testified the craniums felt pressure they still feel pressure this day one of my colleagues saying the same hearing I mean I guess they're not listening to the Ukrainians felt no pressure there's no evidence they felt pressure which gets into their next defense which is it's all hearsay it's all hearsay now most of my colleagues I guess are not lawyers. Lawyers out there understand just how wrong they are about what hearsay is but. Let's just discuss this in terms that that all people can understand. The impression they would have you take from it's all hearsay is because we in this committee were not in that ward room with you Dr Hill we were not in that meeting earlier with Dr Bolton that because we're not in the room it's all hearsay after all you are relating what you heard and you were saying it so it must be hearsay and therefore we don't really have to think about it do we we don't have to consider that you have direct evidence that this meeting in the White House was being withheld because the president wanted these meetings these investigations we can accept that well if that were true you could never present any evidence in court unless the jury was also in the wardroom that's absurd they don't accept the documentary evidence all the text messages about quid pro quos are we really saying and that's crazy and if the my worst nightmare is the Russians will get it now quit they don't accept the documents the few documents that we have from the State Department that were produced by the way by the State Department where some women communicate directly with the secretary of state about this investigative interest of the president and they don't accept the documents either I guess the documents are also hearsay now might be a little more convincing if they were joining us in demanding that the documents produced be produced but of course they're not and we know why not. Because the documents are like that one we saw on the screen they implicate others including Secretary Pompei also of course Donald Trump and Secretary Pompei who don't want to see those documents but a perilous all here saying even when you actually hear the president Mr Holmes That's hearsay we can't rely on people saying what the president said apparently we can only rely on what the president says and there we shouldn't even rely on that either we should really rely and with the president said in the call record we should imagine he said something else we should imagine he said something about actually fighting corruption instead of what he actually said which was I want you to do us a favor though I want to look into this 26000 Crowd Strike conspiracy theory and I want you to look into the Bidens I guess we're not even supposed to rely on that because that's hearsay Well that's absurd that would be like saying you can't rely on the testimony of the burglars during Watergate because it's only hearsay or you can't consider the fact that they tried to break in because they got caught they actually didn't get what they came for so you know got a no harm no foul that's absurd that's absurd but the other the other defense besides it failed the scheme failed they got caught the other defense is the president denies it well I guess that's Case closed right the president says really quite spontaneously it's not as if he was asked in this way no quid pro quo what you want from Craig No no quid pro quo. This is the I'm not a crook defense you say it and I guess that's the end of it well the only thing. We can say is that. It's not so much that the situation is different in turn of terms of Nixon's conduct and Trump's conduct what we've seen here is far more serious than a 3rd rate burglary of the Democratic headquarters what we're talking about here is the withholding of recognition in that White House meeting the withholding of military aid to an ally at war that is beyond anything the extent did the difference between than and now is not the difference between Nixon and tromp It's the difference between that Congress and this one and so we we are asking where is Howard Baker where is Howard Baker where are the people who are willing to go beyond their party to look to their duty I was struck. By Colonel Vinson's testimony because he said that he acted out of duty what is our duty here that's what we need to be asking not using metaphors about balls and strikes or. Our team and your team I've heard my colleagues use those metaphors should be about duty what is our duty. We are and this gets Mr Hucks point we we are the indispensable nation we still are. People look to us from all over the world journalists from their jail cells in Turkey the victims of mass exodus of killing in the Philippines people who gathered in Tahrir Square wanting a representative government people in China who are we. The. People in Ukraine who want to better future they look to us they're not going to look to the Russians they're not going to look to the Chinese they can't look to Europe with all its problems. They still look to us and increasingly they don't recognize what they see because what they see is Americans saying don't engage in political prosecutions and what they say back is Oh you mean like the Bidens and the Clintons that you want us to investigate what they see they don't recognize and that is a terrible tragedy for us but it's a greater tragedy for the rest of the world now I happen to think that when the founders provided a mechanism in the Constitution for impeachment they were worried about what might happen if someone on ethical took the highest office in the land and used it for their personal gain and not because of deep care about the big things that should matter like our national security and our defense and our allies and what the country stands for happen to think that's why they put that remedy in the Constitution and I think we need to consult our conscience. And our constituents and decide whether that remedy is appropriate here whether that remedy is necessary here and as you know notwithstanding what my colleague said I resisted going down this path for a long time but I will tell you why I could resist no more and it came down to this it came down to actually came down to timing it came down to the fact that the day after Bob Muller testified the day after Bob Mueller testified that Donald Trump invited Russian interference a Russian if you're listening come get Hillary's emails and later that day they tried to hack her server the day after he testified that not only did Trump invite that interference. But that he welcomed the help in the campaign they made full use of but they lied about it structed the investigation into it and all this is in his testimony and his report the day after that Donald Trump is back on the phone asking another nation to involve itself in another Us election that says to me this president believes he has a bunch of the law beyond accountability and in my view there is nothing more dangerous than an ethical president who believes there are of of the law and I would just say to people watching here at home and around the world. In the words of my great colleague we are better than that adjourn. You are listening to special coverage of the impeachment hearing from n.p.r. News. I know well King Good afternoon the last scheduled hearing from the House Intelligence intelligence committee has just wrapped up we're going to talk about what we learned today I'm in studio with n.p.r. Senior editor Ron Elving and reporter Bracton Booker and n.p.r. Political reporter to Mack is on the line from Capitol Hill Hello you guys let me read you always over the past few hours we heard from 2 witnesses who talked about the u.s. His diplomatic strategy in Ukraine one of them was watching events unfold in Ukraine the other was watching from the White House if you own a hill is a Russia expert who sat on president trumps national security council and we're going to start our analysis by talking about her testimony we're going to play a bit of tape a long bit of tape which emphasizes the 2 separate u.k. Ukraine policies coming out of the United States the official diplomatic angle that Hill was part of and then the president's policy which was being headed in part by Gordon Sumlin the the ambassador to the e.u. Hill referred to it here as a domestic political errand Well I think you might recall in my deposition on October 14th that I said very unfortunate I had a bit of a blow up with Ambassador and I had a couple of testy encounters with him one of those was in June 18th when I actually said to him who put you in charge of Ukraine and all of me I was a bit relieved when you tell me the president which me up. This other meeting I was about 1520 minutes exactly as he depicted it was I was actually to be honest angry with him and you know. I had to say it but often when women show anger it's not fully appreciated it's often you know pushed onto emotional issues perhaps deflected onto other people and why I was angry about was that he wasn't coordinating with us now actually realize having listened to his deposition that he was absolutely right that he wasn't coordinating with us because we weren't doing the same thing that he was doing so I was upset with him that he wasn't fully telling us about all of the meetings that he was having and he said to me but I'm briefing the president I'm preaching chief of staff Mulvaney I'm briefing Secretary pump arrow and I've talked to a possible been who else do I have to deal with. And the point is we have a robust into agency process that deals with Ukraine it includes Mr Holmes It includes a boss a detail as the Shah in Ukraine is includes a whole lot of other people but it struck me one yesterday when you put up on the screen just someone's emails and who was on these emails and he said these that people need to know that he was absolutely right because he was being involved in a domestic political element and we were being involved in national security foreign policy and those 2 things that just. So he was correct and I had not put my finger on the at the moment but I was irritated with him and I'm with him that he wasn't fully coordinating and I did say to him Gordon I think this is all going to blow up and here we are and here we are run Elving let me get your reaction to that statement but if you're on a hill that was quite a moment it was quite a summary quite appreciate what all of her testimony was about she was enormously impressive with her memory with the things that she had noted throughout her experience with the detail of what she recalled someone saying and how perfectly it fit into the testimony that Sundin himself had given yesterday not necessarily corroborating every detail the way he remembered it but placing it all like puzzle pieces into a larger puzzle giving the context of it and also making clear how many people as himself made clear how many people knew about this operation to that end Fiona Hill offered more detail today about a meeting on July 10th in the White House and in that meeting were e.u. Embassador Gordon son Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vin men and former national security advisor John Bolton she said there was what she described as an unusual huddle that she walked in on let's hear that and so when I came in. And was president saying well look we have a deal here that there will be a meeting I have a deal here with with Chief of Staff Mulvaney they will. Be a meeting if the Ukrainians open up or announced these festive and into 2016 in Bristol and I cut it off immediately because by this point having heard Mr Giuliani over and over again on the television and all of the issues that he was saying by this point it was clear that Bristol was coach of the Bidens the Ukrainian energy company was code for the Bidens and that's something we have heard repeatedly some witnesses saying they understood that to be true some saying I had no idea Michele Kelemen diplomatic correspondent also with us in studio can I get your reaction to that to that statement Well I think the whole testimony of Fiona Hill really showed you that the career people the career people working on national security interests of the United States did not want to be part of the political game that that Gordon sunlight and that Mayor Giuliani and others were playing here that that's what what they felt was wrong and what they were describing this whole you know this week and last in their testimony you know there the u.s. Interest in Ukraine was to support a new Ukrainian government that's facing. Revanche this Russian power that has taken over part of Ukraine has seized Crimea. And this new government was desperately in need of u.s. Support a White House meeting whereas these others were working on convincing this new Ukrainian government to open up political investigations and I thought she did a very strong job describing that that this they didn't want to be a part of this and it was not only her but it was also national security adviser John Bolton former national security adviser John Bolton who told her that he didn't want to be part of any drug deal but had her relay that those concerns to the White House lawyers Fiona Hill was one What witness today the other David Holmes is a u.s. Diplomat based at the embassy in Ukraine earlier this morning he testified about a July phone call that he overheard between Ambassador Gordon Sunland and President Trump. I came to realize that I had 1st hand knowledge regarding certain events on July 26th that I would not otherwise been reported and that those events potentially bore on the question of whether the president did in fact have knowledge that those senior officials were using the levers of diplomatic power to influence the new Ukrainian president to announce the opening of a criminal investigation against President Trump's political opponent it is at that point that I made the observation to Ambassador Taylor that the incident I witnessed on July 26th had acquired greater significance which is what what he reported in his testimony last week and is what led to the subpoena for me to appear here today David Holmes in a sense was here to talk exactly about that phone call that was what everybody wanted to know about Bracton Booker can you walk us through the additional details of that phone call what did we learn today everyone was so curious what we learned that that David Holmes took extraordinary notes on this and this came up during the pushback during the questioning period by Republicans who who wanted some other details that were left out they want to know well what did President Trump say next what it would someone say to President Trump after he acknowledged that the Ukrainians were going to take on these investigations and while David Holmes said like this was not a verbatim transcript but I can tell you that. What I remember happening was that Gordon Tomlin said Yes Ok this investigation was to going to take place in the reason why I don't have the exact transcript is because this probably was discussed in a meeting that I was not in earlier that Saddam had a one on one with and I was not able to get into that room and take notes so I think what you saw from Dave Holmes is someone who's a career note taker someone who is in these pub big policy meetings with with leaders and is able to kind of regurgitate in tell people exactly what happened and distill into very very detailed form and I think that's where you got from from from David Holmes he was many times Republicans were trying to push him off. His stated. His stated. Recollection of what happened and he did not know it was I know guys I know I got this I don't remember who I was yeah I'm going to tell you what happened and I'm going to give you details about even we're on this terrace and open up this bottle of wine so he was very very convincing and his telling of the story even though he was constantly trying to be pushed off those off his off his points we we have actually an exchange where one of the Republicans did try to poke holes in his testimony this is Congressman Michael Ratcliffe a Republican from from Texas he's talking to David Holmes here you said how did we go from the conversation was very loud and record his voice was recognizable to as you say here when the conversation shifted I could only hear him Bassett or someone side of the conversation Yes Or as I testified they Mitchell Part of the call and Masterson when sort of when the president came on the call he sort of winced and held the phone away from his ear. For the initial portion the call and then at some point the call he stopped doing that and I don't know why I don't know if he turned the volume down out of the president spoke less more quietly or if you got used to that volume I don't know what changed what did change it's important this was memorable I don't know sir it was bass or someone stopped moving the phone away from his ear that's what it was Yes Ok. And I should say that was Congressman John Ratcliffe Republican of Texas I misspoke there Tim Mack I wonder can you talk to us about the strategy that we saw from the Republican questioners this afternoon you know it was interesting they they were trying to bring up questions of credibility when it came to David Holmes' recollection that if you listen to the entirety of Congressman Radcliffe's conversation with Mr Holmes you'll see that he tried to kind of rattle him tried to interrupt David Holmes a few times and ask him to recall the conversation starting from the middle or different parts of that conversation on July 26th they did try to. See if these folks were credible and whether their recollections were credible and yet Ron Elving as you pointed out earlier today there was an aspect of the questioning today that was interesting and you can tell me whether today was an outlier or whether this is been going on a lot of the questioners seemed to be using their question time as an opportunity to make speeches they were a whole 5 minute period that went by where a person would talk and talk and talk and it one point funa Hill even said I do have a question for me there has been a pattern and this is bipartisan where of course for members from both parties engage in a certain amount of beach fine and then sometimes get some questions and but by and large they have always gotten at least a question at the end or one or 2 questions in but today we saw a succession of Republicans give a series of remarks that were sort of kind of you know is not true kind of thing but that without a real question and then keep on going this started of course with with Jim Jordan and then Michael Turner and then John Radcliffe and then Chris Stewart and actually I think in fairness you'd have to say that Jordan at least paused long enough for the sort of startled witness tried to respond but then he would jump right back in with another question before they could go much further until finally as you say Fiona Hill said could I say something could I give an answer I'm not going to try to imitate that Northumberland accent but she she did the best she could to kind of say you know I'm actually not getting to answer these questions we're just moving from one question to another and there's never a question so chairmanship gave her an opportunity to speak and at that point she acquitted herself rather startlingly Well I should also say you know I mean she she put them on notice at the beginning I mean in her deposition before this she was very testy when people brought up various conspiracy theories or when they talked about Ukraine meddling in the us in the u.s. Elections she was very testy with them behind closed doors and she made clear at the very top of her opening statement that you know she doesn't want to be part. If anything that's going to force these conspiracy theories these conspiracy theories only help Russia and that was something that she said right at the very beginning and definitely put people on the defensive I think in the Republican side points you could kind of see her now ring her eyes when some of the questions took a turn into the deep conspiracy conspiracy theory territory even even not the debug conspiracy theories but there's also this idea that there were there were Craney and officials who said bad things about candidate Trump and that's not the bunk that's very true yeah there are beds there were. Different comments from different people and what her point was is yes that's true it doesn't add up to what the Russians did to attack us in 2016 and we should never forget that and if if President Trump did you know didn't meet with everyone who said something bad about him he wouldn't have very many meeting. Ron Elving in 30 seconds can you tell us what happens next what happens next is this committee makes a report that report will go to the House Judiciary Committee I think we can conclude from chairmanships closing remarks that this report will recommend impeachment and that the House Judiciary Committee will consider writing articles of impeachment that would then have to go to the house for a vote and then to send a pretrial for those of you who have been listening this afternoon and this week thank you we hope you'll stick with n.p.r. For more analysis of these hearings and whatever may come next I know we'll King and I'd really like to thank the members of the n.p.r. Reporting team who have been with me in studio today diplomatic correspondent Michele Kelemen n.p.r. Reporter practice Booker N.P.R.'s senior Washington editor Ron Elving national political correspondent Michele Kelemen and n.p.r. Political reporter Tim Mak who is on the Hill for us thank you all thank you thank you. This has been special coverage of the impeachment hearings from n.p.r. . States are to day for the early broadcast of all things considered throughout the early part of the afternoon starting in just a few moments but right now it is Thursday afternoon and there are Bay Area traffic conditions out there we say hello to Julie to fish it is good have to do we're dealing with a couple of problems in the rear end there's a stalled truck on the Richmond Sandra found bridge it's in the right lane when span add to the mid-span sitrep you can stamp from stand March rive north 11 before North Sam Page 2 a road that's a stalled garbage truck in the right lane and a trouble on the Nimitz to Oakland South 8 High Street big rig in a pick up truck on the shoulder of an emergency crews in the right lane Have you backed up to 9080 Julie dampish we keep support for comes from San Francisco Opera presenting Puccini's man onless go a young woman gives up true love for luxury now she wants it back limited engagement now through November 26th s.f. Opera dot com Log Me n. Featuring the all new Go To Meeting collaboration software built for business now with cloud recording and community mode so people can collaborate from anywhere go to meeting dot com And by the California Department of Public Health helping parents understand the severity of the vaporing illness operate for c.d.c. Operate information go to tobacco free ca dot com for the rest of the afternoon in the Bay area mostly sunny skies highs in the upper fifty's to the mid to upper sixty's today in the Bay Area clear tonight then partly cloudy some areas of patchy fog after midnight lows in the forty's all things considered now on k.q.e.d. Public Radio in progress. From n.p.r. News this is All Things Considered I'm also Chang and I'm Ari Shapiro as one House Republican put it today the Impeach of palooza tour comes to an end today the House Intelligence Committee had its final scheduled day of public testimony about President Trump's actions toward Ukraine in another part of the program we're hearing a conservative perspective on the hearings we're joined now by Democratic Congresswoman Jackie Spear of California she is in a hallway on Capitol Hill Welcome Congresswoman great to be with you before the hearings began in an interview almost 2 months ago chairman Adam Schiff told me the smoking gun is already out in plain sight so what do you think the public hearings are fields that we did not know at the beginning. I think what it revealed was how ubiquitous the Trump operation was using u.s. Taxpayer funds to promote an agenda that was intended to help the president get reelected by developing an investigation by the Ukraine president Mr Selenski against one of his prospective opponents Mr Biden but we also found out by listening to so many of the Foreign Service officers that it was frustrating their ability to do their jobs because she was had an irregular channel that was being used to promote frankly interests that did not align with the United States but on line more closely with business interests of some individuals in Ukraine and 2 of the clients of Mr Giuliani you use the phrase a regular channel but yesterday Ambassador Gordon Sunland who is the u.s. Ambassador to the European Union said this was not a regular everybody from Secretary of State Pompei out to the vice president White House chief of staff the president himself were all in on this so. I mean it was it was it in fact an irregular channel as you describe it so I'm actually defining an irregular channel in terms of Rudy Giuliani's interest in. Promoting an investigation by crane into detention opponents of President Trump and also pursuing his business clients interests in Ukraine 2 of those individuals now have been indicted for campaign violations for foreign campaign money being brought into the us elections. That's correct and $325000.00 into the Trump shack so there is that going on there was also this effort to try and promote Ukraine to the president who kept saying that they were corrupt but he doesn't have that same inclination to call Kim Jong un corrupt in North Korea he calls them his you know romantic affiliation so you know it has been very helpful I think for the American people to have all of these extraordinary Americans who are doing our foreign policy trying to promote the United States who are nonpartisan who work for Republican and Democratic presidents but who have been very forthright in terms of feeling that they had a moral obligation in addition to their legal obligation in terms of shedding light on the issue the good news for Ukraine is everyone in the United States knows how important it is to the United States to Europe in terms of pushing back on Russia let me play you something that the top Republican on the committee Devon newness of California said this morning arguing that Democrats have been inconsistent in their accusations against the president's office itself changes depending on the day ranging from quid pro quo to extortion to bribery to obstruction of justice and back to quid pro. Quo if you were to help draw up articles of impeachment today what specific offenses would you include so he's actually wrong quid pro quo bribery and extortion are basically all the same the only difference is with extortion there's a threat associated What happened was the president used his official office to see . Something about you from President Selenski an investigation and in so doing was going to resist offering up that White House visit or the military aid until President since he came forward and made a public statement about these so-called investigations some point though Congress has to put pen to paper in the House of Representatives if they want to proceed with impeachment has to drop articles so what specifically do you think would be in those articles Well it's not for me to decide I was part of a committee that was doing all the fact finding that now does the judiciary committee if they drop articles of impeachment certainly I think bribery should be one obstruction of Congress there are so many subpoenas that were issued that were basically ignored and you don't think you know someone ignored says and ignores a subpoena they go to jail and you know it was a whole list of individuals and documents that have never been provided by the White House and the administration so obstruction of Congress would have to be one of them before I have to let you go I just want to ask we're describing this as the last scheduled day of public testimony Republicans have asked for a hearing with witnesses that they select will this happen or do you think this is in fact the end of public hearings or not positions where they gave us a list of requested witnesses and we accepted 2 of them and they testified earlier this week so I don't know no more than that I think that I think we have succeeded in making sure all the witnesses that are involved in the issue about Ukraine have had an opportunity to test Democratic Congresswoman Jackie Spear of California thanks for joining us thank you aren't. An update now on some of the people affected by the mass shooting at an El Paso Wal-Mart in August relatives of Mexicans who were murdered or injured are suing the giant retail chain with the help of the Mexican government the plaintiffs say they want some justice for the victims and they want Wal-Mart to provide better security. For its customers N.P.R.'s Carrie Kahn reports Mexico's Foreign Relations ministry is helping the 10 Mexican plaintiffs in the suit which was filed in El Paso Texas in it the plaintiffs claim Wal-Mart did not quote take reasonable and necessary measures to protect its customers on August 3rd a Texas man who told police he had traveled to harm Hispanics kill 22 people at the Wal-Mart superstore 8 of those murdered were Mexican some of whom had just crossed the border that day to shop 8 other Mexicans were wounded. Or representing the Mexican plaintiffs says that $220000.00 square foot while much store is one of the country's busiest and just think about this for a minute on August 3rd with I think over a 1000 shoppers in the store they did not have one security guard in the front of that store Wal-Mart spokesman Randy Hargrove says the company has yet to see the lawsuit and cannot comment but in writing he did say safety is a top priority and we care deeply about our associates and customers He added We will never forget this tragic event and our condolences continue to go out to everyone who was affected. Victims of the massacre Mexico's foreign minister says Mexico will seek extradition of the 22 year old shooter to stand trial in Mexico and face terrorism charges both actions are still pending according to a spokesman at the country's attorney general's office back in August foreign minister told n.p.r. Such steps are critical to finding justice for the victims. Send a message to people. For now Wal-Mart must do what is right if they're going to get the economic benefit of the number of shoppers located here that reciprocate with that basic level of security for its customers and provide a safe environment for them. Last week Wal-Mart reopened it's now totally remodeled least a super center coil says private security was contracted for the store and a huge banner reading El Paso strong was draped on one side of the building Carrie Kahn n.p.r. News Mexico City. You're listening to All Things Considered from n.p.r. News. Deval Patrick insists he still has time to run a successful campaign for president the former Massachusetts governor made a late entry into the race last week he's been campaigning in the early caucus and primary states from member station reporter Anthony Brooks reports at South Carolina could hold one of the keys to Patrick's long shot bid for the White House Deval Patrick is taking the 1st steps of a nascent presidential campaign starting with the question Who are you my name's Deval Patrick I grew up on the South Side of Chicago Patrick has come to a small office at a strip mall on the edge of Columbia to talk to a dozen African-American women entrepreneurs I'm a Democrat I don't think you have to hate Republicans to be a Democrat but we do have a unique kind of leadership that seems to wake up every day trying to figure out how to divide us further at the same time the president says out loud what the Republican leadership has been saying in code for a long time and so in some ways it's an invitation to confront some unfinished business Patrick is not easy to pigeonhole he was a civil rights lawyer and then a liberal Massachusetts governor who raise taxes and the minimum wage but he's also a corporate lawyer who embraces the benefits of the market he was the state's 1st African-American governor only the 2nd in the whole country who campaigned on hope a theme adopted by his old friend Barack Obama now with none of the Democrats running away with the race he sees an opening it's interesting to me that after months and years in many cases of other campaigns working it they have gotten it done and there was an opening and I would say it was been confirmed in visits to the early states is that is so Patrick's audiences are smaller but receptive in this key state which holds the 1st southern primary and where 2 thirds of Democratic voters are what I am a sounds a gruesome this woman has been leaning toward Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders but she says she likes what you heard from Patrick I'd definitely be elated a lot so what is going on with the community being. Existing likely understand where we're coming from so you might take a closer look and I definitely will take a closer look that's the kind of voter Patrick hopes to win over but some long time political observers here say it's more than a longshot for Patrick to win in South Carolina coming in this lady really I don't see him having a chance Jim Felder is a long time civil rights activist and a former state Rep He says Patrick will be hard pressed to get enough boots on the ground to organize a winning campaign here Felder is a Biden supporter and points out that the former vice president is well ahead in the polls in this state this is really Biden's country we know him 8 years with Obama and we go way back with Jill Biden 1st of all I respect polls but I don't believe they are moment in time this is Deval Patrick again the electorate is still very much in flux if I thought it was too late I would have done it most politicians behind in the polls will often dismiss them but in this case he might be right according to Johnny core Darrow the chairman of the state's Black Caucus which Patrick addressed this week corduroys says it's wrong to conclude that Joe Biden has deep support in South Carolina Joe Biden has a commanding lead he has a lead among older African-Americans but you cannot win South Carolina on that vote along with more Darrow says Biden support falls off among the growing number of millenniums and other younger voters his conclusion about the race it's wide open Patrick would like to believe that despite the wide lead Biden has maintained all year he's currently running his campaign with a tiny staff but he says it will be expanding in the coming days for n.p.r. News I'm Anthony Brooks in Columbia South Carolina. You're listening to All Things Considered from n.p.r. News. And to check in with Julie Delpy for some Thursday afternoon traffic on k.q.e.d. We do have some road work going on in Danville they have the right lane taken away of northbound 680 between Sycamore Valley and Diablo route a road that's why the big back up to crowed Canyon Road Oakland crash still there south 80 high street versus see crews in the right lane that had big rig in a pick up on the shoulder and saw a garbage truck stuck on the Richmond Center a film bridge when spotted mid-span in the right lane had backed up to stand March Dr Julie Delpy. Support for k.q.e.d. Comes from Carbonite offering data protection to businesses including e-mail spreadsheets calendars and more carbon I data protection for small businesses save Mary's College of California KMOV a didn't screw all of education offering credentials masters and doctoral degrees and a bachelor's completion program learn more at St Mary's dash ca dot edu C'mon of it School of Education. Here's what's coming up the softer noon on k.q.e.d. At 4 o'clock China has some influence over American companies that want into that market Hollywood for one how censorship is changing the movies on marketplace that's Marketplace today back on its regular schedule the softer noon join us at 4 here on k.q.e.d. Public Radio and then stay to Normally you would hear marketplace again at 630 that we have political breakdown coming up at 630 this evening on its regular time and at 7 the c evening fresh air on k.q.e.d. Public radio you're hearing an early broadcast of all things considered until 2 pm And coming up in 10 minutes we'll have the world for you. In our world in the Bay Area sunny skies the rest of the afternoon highs upper fifty's to the mid to upper sixty's today and in the world of the Sacramento Valley lots of sunshine Sacramento is high this afternoon about 65 degrees this is k.q.e.d. Public Radio. From n.p.r. News this is All Things Considered and I'm Ari Shapiro if you've ever cooked food on a stove chances are at some point you've used a pan coated with teflon that's been around for decades even burned one stick with teflon so it's always easy to clean recently we've started to learn a lot more about a chemical used to make it go away chemical byproduct of making weatherproof or nonstick materials cancer and organ damage in laboratory animals is in the blood at low levels below almost. Including 2 forms of cancer and ulcerative colitis a new film tells the story behind that discovery dark waters follows Cincinnati attorney Rob a lot one day a West Virginia dairy farmer shows up at his law firm the farmer says all his cows are dying and he thinks it's because the Dupont chemical company is contaminating the water sir I am a corporate defense attorney so I defend chemical companies Well now I can defend make Mark Ruffalo plays Rob a lot both men recently came into our studios and I asked them to describe the experience of filming in some of the places where this story played out in real life and this is Rob I mean I really think that was incredibly powerful to have the filming actually occur in the offices where a lot of the story took place and with the families that were involved there were several of the the folks there in the community in West Virginia that participated we wanted to center as much of it as we could on the actual community a lot of filmmakers would be afraid to do that even afraid to have Rob around as much as we did why because those people would try to exert control over the story yeah I think it's comes out of a fear that maybe people will feel comfortable the way the stories being told or even there's an ego dimension to this is just have you know the guy you're playing standing over your shoulder telling you that didn't happen like that or you know I would've done the. Differently here but for me it was really freeing to have him there and. Pour raw by deposition. I was going to say the flip side of having somebody micromanage your performance who you are playing is that you can turn to that person and say How would you do this does this seem realistic does it seem accurate can you give me an example of when you did that on set yeah there is an actual deposition seeing who rob below is posing holiday the c.e.o. Of Dupont that's to Ponce pregnancy study from 1901 does that look like a deposit document it looks to be and I as an actor wanted to go in and use that deposition to literally tear into Dupont and all of their abuse and deception and you know you get the chance to finally like meet your adversary and I asked Rob and he said what I was really doing there was trying to lay out to him the things that they had done and who they affected so that he would do the right thing and it changes that seeing and it makes that scenes so launch more compelling 7 pregnant women all Dupont employees all from the tough long line. You see this here quote child 4 months one. Effect and yes 2 of the 7 women nearly 30 percent gave birth to babies that have the exact facial deformities that your company already knew were done here part of what sets this story apart from other kind of legal David and Goliath type thrillers is that Rob you were a corporate defense attorney and you were a corporate defense attorney when you took this case so how risky did that feel at the time. You know at the time we thought this was going to be a fairly straightforward project just representing one farmer right we had no idea at the time we were taking this on that we would discover this was a completely unregulated chemical and one that was not just there you know at the farmer's property but in the water of the whole community and up in the water all over the world and in everybody's blood when I started digging in and seeing those facts I just realised I've got to get this information out to people and hopefully once people see what's really happening here people will understand this is a public health crisis du Pont denies wrongdoing in the company has pushed back on the film saying the facts are not all accurate the current Dupont c.e.o. Says he never witnessed the kind of behavior that we see in the movie Rob they've said that this is inspired by your life not based on what actually happened how do you respond to that this is Rob I'll jump in 1st you know this is something I've been dealing with for a couple of decades now you know the company has its version of the facts in the you know I think folks can see the film and you know I've recently done a book so people will have those resources and you know they can draw their own conclusions about who's got the actual version of reality here in the film it's clear that your actions really kind of divided the community and your colleagues as you were filming this in Cincinnati. Now having kind of litigated the whole arc of this case did it feel like everybody was on your side or did it feel like some people still looked at the project you know crosswise you know we're still talking about a community out in West Virginia that is you know it's a company town and there are still I think hard feelings in that community between the folks that took on the company and the supporters of the company in hopefully people when they see what really happened and what this community went through hopefully those attitudes will start to change I just want to add to that and you know what you know where do we come to an America where we have a choice between having a job and being healthy but they're talking about the fossil fuel industry or you're talking about farming and the pesticides that we're using people are choosing Hey listen yeah I might get cancer from this but at least I got a job and like that is such a sad state of affairs for American workers. It is not a spoiler to say that you leave viewers with some really sobering information at the end about the pervasiveness of harmful chemicals around the world why not leave people feeling good like you got a court victory you've got justice for these sick people why why why and on the note that you do because the story's not done it's still out there it's in our blood it's in the blood of nearly every living creature on the planet you're talking about s.p.f. Away that the chemical that was at the center of the litigation now it's in polar bears they found it in eagles it accumulates in us over time we can't get it out of our systems and in the end part of what the debate I think about this film should be and I think it's a debate that we're having nationally is did these systems that are made to protect us are they actually in service of us or are they in service of a corporate political system and that's why we can't and this movie with our hero driving away an s.u.v. And a happy ending Mark Ruffalo and Rob a lot thank you so much for talking with us today thank you thank you ruff low stars as a lot of the new film dark waters and also has written a book about his time fighting Dupont's lawyers it is called exposure and it's out now. Dupont no longer makes p.f. Away the company says it is actively examining its use of all similar compounds this is All Things Considered from n.p.r. News and stay tuned to k.q.e.d. Coming up we have the world and the news the south after noon starting at 2 back to Julie deposition for some Bay Area traffic conditions better news on the Richmond Sandra found bridge he declared and still a garbage truck was in the right lane westbound in mid-span it's a traffic recovery back to Kasten Street New trouble for Oakland the West spent 25 . Connect to ramp to southbound 13 still cement truck there blocks and connect a ramp landscape the work again in the Santa Cruz Mountains right lanes shut down for another hour Highway 70 northbound from the summit to Redwood estates. Support for k.q.e.d. Comes from another planet entertainment presenting David Gray playing the white latter album and his greatest hits at Berkeley's Greek Theater on August 1st 2020 tickets available now through ticketmaster dot com and the great Berkeley dot com key players in the Ukraine affair have testified before Congress and the country will testimony from more former and current government officials affect the case to impeach President Trump this is a sham and should be allowed I do believe the truth will set us free I'm Audie Cornish join n.p.r. For a special hour long recap of the public hearings of the House impeachment inquiry from n.p.r. News scheduled for 5 this afternoon and again at midnight tonight on. I'm Joshua Johnson actor Alan Cumming is Scottish American he's been a u.s. Citizen for 10 years he tells us his American story next time on one. That's the late night broadcast of one a here on member supported k.q.e.d. F.m. 88.5 San Francisco. 89.3 North Highlands Sacramento. Good afternoon it's time for the world now at 2 pm. More to between hearings today today's star witness told lawmakers stop spreading conspiracies about Ukraine and the cost of this investigation I would just please not turn up to 60 different since o.t.s. Interests as Republicans and Democrats have again for decades is a funny pawn of the nicest as it plays an important loan on national security far away from Washington and northern Syria President Trump and moved American troops out of towns and cities and toward oil fields this is given some Syrians the impression that their lives don't matter some liquid popping out of the ground is more valuable than their blood this is how they see it and cricket is going pink be edited for the big blood test we have a developing blood test match you oh oh we're so ready I'm Marco Werman Those stories and more today here on the world. I'm still in touch with the b.b.c. News Hello Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has responded angrily to his indictment on corruption charges describing it as tantamount to a coup in a televised speech he said those behind the investigation hadn't been after the truth they'd been after him the accusations relate to cases that involve gifts Mr Netanyahu received from wealthy figures as well as his alleged efforts to get better media coverage in return for favors the announcement was made by the attorney general I have a high Mandelbrot who was appointed by the Prime Minister but you know without the ability for Should Washington should I. Don't know today I informed Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of my decision to prosecute and indict him on 3 charges the day the attorney general decides to indict an incumbent Prime Minister for serious offenses relating to government corruption is a difficult and silent they for the Israeli people and for me personally. Amnesty International says the security forces in Chile have deliberately injured people taking part in the current mass demonstrations against inequality it's a the aim is to try to discourage further protests from Santiago so silly a barrier reports throughout the unrest in Chile police have said they were acting to maintain order has been contradicted by Amnesty International are we setting its reports that the security forces where the Liberty Hermie protesters The report goes on to say excessive force in some cases torture and sexual violence has been used as a means of punishment what started as a longer over a small rise in the price of public transport has turned into the biggest demonstrations for 3 decades a former u.s. National security official says that Ukraine was put under pressure to investigate president trumps opponents the on the Hill has been giving evidence to the impeachment inquiry it's examining whether Mr Trump withheld military aid unless it did as he wished referring to Wednesday's testimony of ambassador go.