Gus Fring Peter Gould the show's co-creator and Co showrunner and Jonathan Banks who plays Mike who was a cop before he was a fixer Banks says he's played a lot of cops in his career because I'm not very pretty so I can't play leading those or me they're going to be a bit of a cop that's coming up on fresh air. First the news. Live from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm Laurie London China is threatening additional tariffs on thousands of u.s. Goods if Washington goes through with its latest terror threat N.P.R.'s Tamara Keith reports a top White House economic adviser says President Trump won't budge when it comes to the ongoing trade dispute White House National Economic Council Chairman Larry Kudlow is sounding a warning to China following its announcement that it is prepared to impose retaliatory tariffs on 60000000000 dollars worth of u.s. Imports the Chinese had better not underestimate the determination of President Trump to follow through and seek 0 tariffs and non-tariff barriers and subsidies and a level playing field Kudlow was speaking on the Fox Business Network it's not clear where the escalating threats of tariffs between the u.s. And China go from here but Cutler touted progress in trade talks with the European Union in Mexico Tamara Keith n.p.r. News more states are joining a lawsuit against the federal government over a 3 d. Printer Bill guns Matt largely of member station k.u.n.c. In Austin reports 18 states and the District of Columbia are challenging the State Department's decision to allow a Texas company to post the downloadable plans the lawsuit argues the State Department didn't follow proper procedure when it agreed to carve out an exception in federal arms export rules allowing Austin based Defense Distributed to post the files the plans can be used by anyone with a commercially available 3 d. Printer to make an untraceable plastic gun a federal judge has ordered the blueprints taken down pending a hearing in the case later this month they were online for several days and were downloaded thousands of times the plans have now been posted on other sites too for n.p.r. News I'm at large the president of the National Rifle Association is. Speaking tonight at a Republican rally in far west Kentucky where a deadly school shooting occurred in January a group of Marshall County High School shooting survivor say Oliver North's visit is quote like rubbing salt on an open wound Taylor in min of member station w. K.M.'s has more on the planned protest a group of 15 to 17 year old students are holding a demonstration and silent vigil outside the rally at Murray State University the referee is a 15 year old martial student and says she has faced criticism in her community for vocalizing support of gun control I feel like the more we keep trying the moral hopefully be able to tap into people's hearts and show them what we're fighting for the local Republican Parties hosting North visits that insensitivity was not their intent w. K.M.'s as Taylor in the country is seeking a sustained rise in student activism led and inspired by survivors of the massacre in Parkland this is n.p.r. From k.q.e.d. News I'm Tara Siler the 2 massive fires in Mendocino only counties have now scorched more than 150000 acres that's more than 5 times the size of San Francisco firefighters are trying to stop the blaze from moving east where a fire earlier this summer forced evacuations and destroyed structures many of the same residents are being forced to leave again the Moose Lodge in Clear Lake Oaks has served as an unofficial shelter during the fires and now it's being evacuated the lodges Joanne center Dreher says the frequent evacuations are taking a toll I had a feel when I was taking sign and they were just trembling and then you see them for a couple of days and they kind of seemed to relax a little bit and and then like today now it was more of panic again like oh my gosh now I got settled and I have to go again and I'm still not going home Senate Jr and roughly 25 other people have chosen to stay despite the evacuation orders local air regulators are issuing. An area visor he today through Sunday warning that winds could push smoke from those fires into the Bay Area changing wind patterns will continue to be a challenge for firefighters but meteorologist Janel says the temperatures are expected to come down a little be a public additions over the next few days argh argh not going to be as extreme as we saw about a week ago maybe it's going to go to war back up again but the temperatures are going to be you know into the low $100.00 got to do the work of a good kid sort of raid so getting a bit of a respite the Bay Area Air Quality Management District does not plan to call a spare the air alert because air quality is not expected to exceed federal standards I'm terrace Siler k.q.e.d. News and support this afternoon comes from we work modern workspaces curated business services and a global community w e dot seo slash k.q.e.d. Support for n.p.r. Comes from the Ford Foundation working with visionaries on the front lines of social change worldwide to address inequality in all its forms are more at Ford Foundation dot org and the listeners of k.q.e.d. Partly to mostly sunny the rest of the afternoon breezy in hazy at times in the Bay Area high sixty's to the low ninety's a red flag warning in effect now for the East Bay and North Bay hills until tomorrow evening at 11 pm Sacramento Valley Sunny the rest of the afternoon and a hazy highs 92 to 98 Sacramento is high today 96. This is Fresh Air I'm David Bianculli editor of the website t.v. Worth watching and fresh air t.v. Critic sitting in for Terry Gross. Next Monday the AMC series Better Call Saul the sequel and prequel to Vince Gilligan superb series Breaking Bad returns for a 4th season today we revisit interviews with Better Call Saul actors Bob Odenkirk Jonathan Banks and John Carlos Positano and with Peter Gould a writer producer on Breaking Bad who co-created Better Call Saul with Vince Gilligan. Better Call Saul is a spinoff of Breaking Bad which was one of my favorite t.v. Drama series of all time that AMC show started Bryan Cranston as a high school science teacher named Walter White a meek ordinary guy who makes a slow but steady transformation into a ruthless drug lord and murderer in Breaking Bad one of the breakout supporting characters was Saul Goodman a fast talking faster thinking lawyer played by Bob Odenkirk Sol ended up representing Walter White and colluding on several of his crimes forcing Saul as Breaking Bad ended to adopt another identity and flee to Nebraska hiding in plain sight by managing a Cinnabon franchise at a mall in Omaha a Better Call Saul picks up Saul story both before and after the events in Breaking Bad the story of Saul continues to advance in tiny segments but the vast majority of Better Call Saul takes place before there was a Saul with Odin Kirk playing a slightly less shady lawyer still operating under his real name of Jimmy McGill. For its 1st 3 seasons Better Call Saul has focused above all else on Jimmy McGill's 2 closest relationships one is with his girlfriend in law partner Kim played by Ray a see her the other is with his disapproving older brother Chuck a much more successful and law abiding attorney played by Michael McKeon last season's final episode had Kim and Jimmy closing down their law firm after some tough setbacks and Chuck trapped in a sudden house fire his fate unknown. I won't reveal what happens to chuck but last season just before that fire Chuck had basically rejected Jimmy as a brother dismissing his skills as a lawyer and denying any personal affection for him in the new season opener the usually super verbose Jimmy remained so thrown by among other things what Chuck said to him Jimmy spends most of his time not talking. But by the 2nd episode Jimmy has rediscovered his gift for gab he's interviewing for a new job but as a salesman of business office copier machines not as a lawyer definitely not as a lawyer says here you are a lawyer. Until not long ago. What changed. You know you know why God made snakes before he made lawyers he needed the practice. Needed the practice right and that's pretty much the only lawyers are going out because all the others are true stories yes I know you're looking for somebody with sales experience and I don't have any except. Except being a lawyer and being a lawyer my job was sales I was so on the judges of the jury sometimes I was on the client the best deal from a series of bad options but every hour of every day I was convincing persuading I was soundly. I hear what you're saying and we have a lot of high ticket items that are clientele primed to say no well my spirit animal is evil monster once and I don't like go home in these opening episodes of Better Call Saul we see a few more new faces old faces really from the Breaking Bad universe I won't reveal those either because it's all part of the fun and Better Call Saul as it gets closer and closer to merging these 2 worlds is as delightful as ever. The last time we saw Bob own Kirk on Breaking Bad so Goodman and Walter White were in hiding together awaiting new identities being concocted for them by a fellow coconspirator Hey I'm a civilian I'm not your lawyer anymore I'm nobody's lawyer the fun is over from here on out I'm Mr Low profile just another douche bag with a job and 3 pairs of Dockers if I'm lucky month from now best case scenario a man as you get Cinnabon in all my office feel part of this whether you like it or not I'm sorry I don't think so at the time that it was written that was a toss away line but eventually it became the way in to continue Sol story Terry Gross spoke with Bob Odenkirk in 20132 years before his character of Saul Goodman was spun off into the Better Call Saul prequel before playing that Hustler of a lawyer Odin Kirk played a hustler of a Hollywood agent on H.B.O.'s The Larry Sanders Show and was co-creator and costar with David Cross of the h.b.o. Sketch comedy series Mr Show. Terry began by replaying Odin Kirk's introductory appearances Saul Goodman on Breaking Bad it's from season 2 and Goodman has been dispatched to represent Brandon Mayhew aka Badger who's been arrested for selling meth to an undercover agent Badger works for Walter White and Saul Goodman interrupts Badger's interrogation to introduce himself to all of us. Who do we have. A friend in May hear Brandon Mayhew right. Brendan made. Here we go public masturbation. Again what's the kick want to do it at home like the rest of us with a big flat screen t.v. 50 channels of pay per view and a Starbucks that's nice very me man the arm I was the guy who's selling meth most of the. Ok I got some math right sorry it was a little transposition Larry a little while to take care of yeah and felony quantity just barely Yeah it's just barely caps around here like butchers got their thumbs on the scales you know good luck arguing that court. Let me down to brass tacks I'm to get you a 2nd phone call Ok you can call your mommy or daddy or your parish priest or your Boy Scout leader and they're going to deliver me a check for $4650.00 and write that down on the back of my business card or 650 a cashier's check or a money order doesn't matter. I want it in a money order and make it out to my station zebra's associates that's my loan out it's totally legit it's done just for tax purposes after that we can discuss Visa or Master Card but definitely not American Express don't even ask right questions what a great start for your character Bob Odenkirk welcome to Fresh Air What did you know about your character Saul when you took the role. Well I talked to Vince and Vince said this is Gilligan the creator is Gilligan the creator I said let me just talk to him and he goes he's a sleazy lawyer his name Saul Goodman and I go Well you know I'm not Jewish so there's a lot of Jewish actors I'm sure you could find one and he goes oh no no he's not Jewish he's Irish. And he just changed his name to appeal to the homeboys and gain some stature in their eyes you've said that you based Saul on Hollywood agents more so than on lawyers yeah I don't know any lawyers So what kind of agents do you know who are anything like Saul. Oh my God a lot of them really yeah yeah they talk really fast you know Saul's the character wants to get something out of whoever he's talking to he's trying to manipulate them into doing what he wants and I think that's true for a lot of agents is there are aware of a certain scenario that they can sell you know when they're talking to you they're pitching you in a clever way on just fitting into a business proposition that they know for some reason that they can sell to make deals. You know played an agent on I did Gary Shandling Show and you used some similar tactics Yeah my agent my 1st agent is the great Ari Emanuel who now runs William Morris Oh and he was the basis for what's his name carrier role Yeah on Entourage and he was your 1st agent yes and he was my basis for my character on Larry Sanders Stevie grant So Ari's inspired a lot of performances wait wait wait is that all that Oh no that. This Ari Emanuel is clients know that I'm. Proud of it he's a great guy I really like that guy a lot also if I might add I didn't personally have Robert Evans the great film producer who is such an entertaining guy to hear talk you know if you've ever heard his book on tape the kid stays in the picture it's incredibly entertaining and when I saw how many lines I had as Saul which is. A lot more than comedy and comedy you'll get like 2 lines and then you're more of a back and forth usually and Saul Goodman has these long monologues Ok he's a he's a talker he really is a talker and what he's doing is he's trying he's trying to convince you of something and when he sees that it's not working he goes another route like he switches it up in mid-stream until he finds the tack that will get him where he wants to go and when I saw those longs I thought you know I wish I could do some kind of Robert Evans type voice with a little melody and a little and that kind of stop and start cliffhanger thing that. Robert Evans does when he goes you know did I do the right thing. Heck no they do it again in a sick you know he leaves you hang in there for just a hair and it makes you makes you listen even closer you know and. So I thought I'd steal some of that I don't know how much I did it but I do the character as Robert Evans as practice and then I just do it and I get on stage when I was in front of the camera I mean. It's not in the theater yet. So anyway the right I think I have the perfect scene here. You just said about Saul about how he's not selling it one way he's going to change directions and just try something else and this is a scene from Season 2 episode 8 where Saul's been representing the guy who's been dealing meth for Walt and Jesse the guy who we heard and in the 1st scene and what Jesse are really afraid that you're going to let your client talk to the da the Drug Enforcement Agency and if he talks that's going to out Jesse and Walt and they're going to be in prison so they can't allow that to happen so what they've done is they've basically kidnapped you taken out to the desert they've dug you a grave and they're making you Neal staring into this grave that they've made for you meanwhile they're standing behind you with ski masks on their faces so you can't tell who they are and they have guns pointed at your back you have no idea who they are or what they want or why they've captured you he's just back that they're representatives of one of the Latin drug cartels Here's the scene you speak or shall I say whimper 1st begging for your life. What can I do for you. Anything just tell me what you need this afternoon and associate of ours offered you $10000.00. Wait a minute this isn't regards to do what's his name badge your brand inmates you Bianco they are the uncle there was your god. No offense guys but I don't take bribes from strangers you know better safe than sorry that's my motto put up take your money sure. Has expired. I was kind of low anyways but but Ok Ok I'll take it just tell me what you need Alright I mean I'm going to keep a happy thought this film isn't of the negotiating tactic. This is the be very carefully you're going to give Badger makes you the best legal representation. But no deal. Badger will not identify anyone to anybody if he does you're dead. Whether you just kill. Me Follow me guys but. You don't go gunning for the mosquitoes attorney you go grab a former Swat so to speak. All due respect to arm to spell this out for you or not Jones. Then you've got real problems again because he is going to come down on your boy like a proverbial ton of bricks I mean I don't think I'm going out on a limb here but he's not going to like prison he's going to sing like Celine Dion regardless of what you do to me. Or the great scene and that's my guest Bob Odenkirk as the lawyer saw with Aaron Paul as Jesse and Brian Cranston as Walt in season 2 from Breaking Bad so one more question when people see you on the street street people who are fans of Breaking Bad yes what do they say to you is commonly said. Thing well they all say Better Call Saul Yeah but some of them this is so weird Terry Yeah and this is like I think this is because it's so much more famous than anything I've done it's so much bigger there's like a fringe awareness of the show where people know the show know the characters on the show but they've probably not really seen it or they've only seen a few minutes of it so I this is the this is where we trip into the weird place of sort of a version of success or fame that is so strange I get this I got it today on the way into this building I get this I want to shout this out some to back away from the mike Ok so how. Ok So that guy this has happened more than once that guy doesn't know my name only knows me from breaking bad but doesn't know Breaking Bad that well he doesn't know the name of the character so he hasn't watched the show that closely but he knows it well enough to recognize my face even without the hair pieces in the suit and all that other stuff that's a weird place to get to so what do you say in response I go. And then can't keep walking and I keep walking thank you so much for talking with us it's really been a pleasure I appreciate it Bob Odenkirk speaking to Terry Gross in 20132 years later his character of Saul Goodman was spun off into his own AMC series called Better Call Saul after a break we'll hear Terry's 2015 interview with writer producer Peter Gould the co-creator of Better Call Saul This is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air On Monday the AMC Breaking Bad spinoff Better Call Saul begins its 4th season when Better Call Saul began in 2015 Terry spoke with writer producer Peter Gould who co-created the series with Vince Gilligan Gould created the character of Saul Goodman and since Better Call Saul is a prequel set years before the events of Breaking Bad it allowed the show's creators to explore Saul's past and the pasts of some other breaking bad characters as well most specifically bodyguard and sometimes hitman Mike Ermine trout played by Jonathan Banks so I always wondered like how did Saul and Mike get to know each other and we find out in Better Call Saul did we know that on Breaking Bad did we know how they knew each other absolutely not Mike was just conjured up when when Saul Goodman knew him and I can genie Ok so we find out how they meet him Better Call Saul and the answer is that Mike is working at the ticket booth of the parking lot that adjoins the court house where Saul is working as a public defender and Saul is always well at this point is Jimmy and Jimmy as always so just kind of. In disarray that he never has time to get or the money to get the proper amount of like parking stickers on his sticker or to not pay for the parking so he's coming to the ticket booth at the parking lot and at the ticket booth we hear a voice and then we later see as the camera moves that it's Mike here's that scene Jimmy is pulling out. Stopping at the ticket booth and encountering like. $3.00. I'm going to see the stickers 5 stickers one show is $3.00. A game. Look. I'm delegated to the entire day 5 sticker 60 acres I don't know from stickers because I was in the court back there saving people's lives so. That you know it's real and thank you for restoring my faith in the judicial system you have a baby $3.00 or you go back and say you get an additional sticker. It's. All right you win a race for you. To buy if the bear cub I need more stickers don't have enough stickers Thank you. Very nice. Employee of the month over here. In the middle. Bob Oden Kirk and Jonathan Banks in the 1st episode of Better Call Saul Peter Gold writing coming up with the idea that that's how they would meet why did you choose the ticket booth approach we just had the image of the most bad ass guy we know doing the least likely thing my current trout looking at stickers and taking money for parking like what the hell is he doing in that parking booth and hopefully hopefully the audience is asking the same questions and when we when we talked about it some more we started figuring out why and that really intrigued us any Still the enforcer but what he's enforcing is the number of parking stickers you need to exit that exit he does very stern about he's very finicky about rules he thinks there's a right way to do things there he says to seize a strict professional Peter Gold co-creator of Better Call Saul speaking to Terry Gross in 2015 the new season of Better Call Saul premieres Monday on AMC. After a break we'll continue Terry's conversation with Peter Gould. We'll hear from 2 of the costars of Better Call Saul Jonathan Banks who plays Mike. And John Carlo Esposito who plays his ruthless mob bust. I'm David Bianculli and this is Fresh Air . Foundation supports. Fresh air and its commitment to sharing ideas and encouraging meaningful conversation support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from tire rock attire decision. That fit their car and driving conditions with a network of more than 7000 independent installers. Helping drivers find deliver install and from Cancer Treatment Centers of America offering immunotherapy and other personalized treatment options to address patients individual needs more about precision cancer treatment Cancer Center dot com. Sleep world an average person changes sleep positions 50 times a night choosing a mattress that allows for a different sleep style can ensure wellness by improving sleep or more of sleep World dot com slash research. Another half hour. To global coverage on the world from $2.00 to $33.00 it's the p.b.s. News Hour on k.q.e.d. Public Radio. This is Fresh Air I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross back with more of our salute to AMCs Better Call Saul the Breaking Bad prequel and sequel The Begin season 4 on Monday in a few minutes we'll hear from 2 of the actors who worked on both Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul Jonathan Banks who plays Mike Irma trout and John Carlo Esposito who plays Gus Fring But 1st let's get back to Terry's conversation with Peter Gould the co-creator of Better Call Saul they spoke in 2015 when the show premiered Here's a clip from the very 1st episode of Better Call Saul when Bob Odenkirk Saul then still operating under his given name of Jimmy McGill is meeting with a young couple in a restaurant he hopes to persuade them to hire him as their attorney the husband a government accountant has just been accused of embezzlement. Only Knows what I read the paper and. Typically when money goes missing from the county Treasury and the number here is 1600000 that's in the county and it's a discrepancy absolute but typically when that happens the police look at the treasure and says that person is. I just think a little proactivity maybe an order. Just look guilty if I hired a lawyer actually it's getting arrested that makes people look guilty even the innocent ones and innocent people get arrested every day and they find themselves in a little room with a detective who acts like he's their best friend talk to me he says help me clear this thing up you don't need a lawyer only guilty people need lawyers and hey that's when it all goes south that's when you want someone in your corner someone who will fight tooth and nail. Lawyers it were like health insurance you hope you never need it man a man not having it because. That's Bob Bowden Kirk is Jimmy McGill who eventually will become Saul Goodman the from Mill your character from Breaking Bad that clip featured Odin Kirk as Jimmy but Terry's question to writer producer Peter Gould was about Saul Bob Odenkirk said that he based his performance of Saul on Hollywood agents and the way that agents like try to manipulate their clients and into deals could you based Saul on were you thinking of agents were you thinking of lawyers I think were thema lawyers I grew up in New York and I had some lawyers in the family and none of them were as fast talking as Saul Goodman and so it was just the idea of someone who is a free agent who has the gift of the gab but there was always the sense that people were making their lives through their wits Let's. Play the very 1st scene that that the character of my current Trout is in and Jesse's girlfriend Jane has oh deed in bed Jesse wakes up to find her dad he calls Walt Walt calls Saul lawyer and Saul sends Mike the fixer and Mike cleans up all the evidence of drugs and tells Jesse what to do here's the scene in which that happens . And the other drugs in the house. Think hard your freedom depends on it. Or about guns getting guns in the house. Here's your story you woke up you found her that's all you know. Say please I woke up I found her that's all I know. He. Said I woke up I found her that's all I know who pushed under That's all I know again. I will I fell that's all I know and again I woke up I tell her that's all it'll have to complete I found her it's all I know. Once you call it in the people who show up will be with the Office of medical investigations it's primarily who you'll talk to. Police officers and may arrive they may not depends on how busy a morning they're having typically 0 D's are not a high priority call There's nothing here to incriminate you sort of be amazed if you got placed under arrest however if you do you say nothing you tell them you just want your lawyer and you call Sol good. Do I need to state the obvious I was not here. It's great and that's my guest Jonathan Banks as Mike Norman trout. Jonathan Banks welcome to the conversation thank you Terry So you know what is supposed to be Saul who cleans up things for Jesse and tells them what to say so Peter Gould It ended up being Mike how did it end up being Mike we were going to have Saul Goodman come in and clean things up unfortunately Bob was not available Bob Odenkirk was not available to come to town to come to Albuquerque for that particular scene and so very much at the last minute. Vince Gilligan had the inspiration of bringing in Mike the fixer or his private detective he has been mentioned a couple of times on the show and through some miracle we cast Mr Jonathan Banks I thought I was going to you know I thought I'd do a day's work and leave it snowed and I won and then that scene where you hear the slap is Aaron still complains about it is no. And you know I love the boy but you know it was it was fun I had a good time and know it came as a surprise but he told me if I'm wrong Peter but Peter and Tom schnoz invents have been friends forever and when they were kids in college they used to watch wiseguy so that I guess my character on wiseguy made an impression on them and why there was a great t.v. Series that started in 1907 and introduced actors like Stanley Tucci and Kevin Spacey at least that's where I found out about them so you mentioned that Aaron Paul didn't know that you were going to slap him in that scene a 2nd sitter acceptable for you to do that. It's totally acceptable for me to when I got slapped that's the rules that apply to everybody else don't necessarily apply to Mr Van You know I get that senior pass you know. You know if you can take. From an old guy I mean come on arrogant take a punch for goodness sakes. So Jonathan Banks you're a former cop in Breaking Bad and better call saw You've played a lot of cops and former cops over the years and in wiseguy where I 1st saw you a t.v. Series that started in 1987 you played the head of like an organized crime task force and you were the supervisor for the can walk character who goes undercover every week so how did you get to play so many cops and former cops like what is it what is it about you do you think. I'm not very pretty so I can't play the leading man so I'm either going to be the bad cop and that's you know it's a smart alec answer but it's also there's some truth in that in the world of Hollywood and television if you're not beautiful you better be able to act a little bit. Were you a tough guy at all as a young man. I mean these guys that get up and say I grew up in a tough neighborhood it was this it was that it was that the reality is they were sad neighborhoods and and if you were lucky enough to get out Oh my gosh how how lucky I am yeah that's my answer I read your mother was in the CIA did you know did you know exactly what she did or was that like oh well I'll give you I'm going to get my mom my mom's gone now but my mother started out in life on her own completely at 15 years old as a maid in a Methodist parsonage in Bloomington Indiana she was a whiz at shorthand and typing it out and they got a job with the Navy Department in Washington d.c. Who World War 2 came along there was a period of time where she was and Wilson's Private Secretary Admiral Nimitz at one time was a commander of the Pacific fleet after the war she went to work manage the secretarial pool as I understood it at the CIA under a woman named Peggy hunt back then they would burn their carbons every day at the end of the day and they had those oval back chairs that the secretaries would sit down and she taught her girls if someone came up behind them that they would throw their elbows straight back stand up and address them in a very loud voice the thought being if it went past that moment that it was not going to go in their favor they were secretary. Isn't whoever the man was that came up behind them was probably one of their superiors. Her bosses knew that that's what she taught but that was that was pretty much the recourse the woman had in in the in the fifty's in the early fifty's and when any human resources to go to. And and I mean this I should be half the woman that my mother was it took me a while to realize you're talking about sexual harassment there yeah yeah and for people who don't know when you said they burned their carbon carbon paper that makes duplicates of what you're typing your mother must have typed a lot of secrets. My mom. When the transcriptions came back from the Nuremberg trials she was at the Treasury and that's where the Secret Service used to be and there was a tunnel that used to go under and maybe it's probably still there from the Treasury Department to the White House so you know there's a lot of stuff and as far as sexual harassment goes she always left her office door wide open and she raised me by herself thank you both so much for talking with us thank you thanks a lot. Jonathan Banks and Peter Gold speaking to Terry Gross in 2015 Coming up one more interview with a key player from Better Call Saul John Carlo Esposito who plays the very soft spoken but very ruthless drug kingpin Gus Fring This is Fresh Air. Support for n.p.r. Comes from the station and from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and the state of Joan Kroc bequests says an enduring investment in the future of public radio. And from the Gruber family foundation supporting N.P.R.'s international coverage covering the trends moments people and movements that drive the world always with the goal of creating a more informed public one challenge than invigorated by events ideas and cultures this is Fresh Air John Carlo Esposito who played drug kingpin Gus Fring in Breaking Bad featured prominently in one of the it shows most explosive and memorable episodes then in Better Call Saul we learn about the earlier years of Gus and how he rose from owner of a regional fast food chicken franchise to International Drug Smuggler manufacturer and distributor Terry Gross spoke with John Carlo Esposito last year when Better Call Saul was in its 3rd season and when Gus Fring by that time was juggling management of his Los poilus Hermanos restaurant and his growing meth smuggling and selling business. Those worlds were beginning to collide sometimes dangerously in this scene from Season 3 Gus gathers his employees to talk about the men who had just visited the restaurant and menaced the staff he promises his workers overtime pay and to pay for therapy if they needed counseling to deal with the trauma then the restaurant manager asks a question. Mr Frank. Who are those guys. Well some of you know. That many years ago I opened my personal spoils of the models in me to walk on. Shortly there after those same men showed up. They wanted money. And I am I'm ashamed to say that I paid them. You see in that place at that time if I wished to conduct my business I had no choice. But yesterday. Yesterday they came here. Here. They intimidated my customers. They threatened my employees. And again. They wanted money and my friends and I must confess. That I almost gave them what they wanted. Then I thought no. No. This is America. Here the righteous have no reason to fear here those men have no power. And when this saw that I had no fear of them they ran like the cowards they are back across the border. They will not return. We will move on from this. My friends. I promise you. We will prosper. John Carlo Esposito welcome to Fresh Air I love that scene I could listen to that over and over and over again. And it's such a great moment because you seem like such like the perfect manager thoughtful you're concerned about your staff and want to protect them you're standing up to bullies you're patriotic about America I'd like to talk with you about your voice as Gus It's a very kind of measured voice you articulate every syllable. It's a very conscious way of speaking and you also have the room slight remains of an accent from I forget which country got us from Chile Chile Yeah so can you talk about constructing that voice for Gus. Yes I try to let the words speak to me and jump off the page in silence so that I can hear the rhythm of what they are trying to write in this case obviously Gus has a chill a an accent which I bring to the copy and then allowing my voice to join it in a whisper and then from that whisper comes a sound so that I can allow what the writers have honored in this character and my voice to join together in a seamless way. I have to tell you and half African-American so I just to kill 8 I'm very Italian if you met me in person I use my hands to speak I wanted that to be diminished and I wanted the calm and cool personality of Gus to emerge so that whisper allowed me to relax and Jon Karl to go away. The character of Gus is very meticulous in his restaurant he's often like emptying trays and self and cleaning up the tables and emptying the trash and in his demeanor I mean his clothes even his khaki pants everything's always perfectly pressed and clean he works at a restaurant you will never see a stain on him so that you or is that is that something you brought to the character was not written into the script and since he has so much blood on his hands metaphorically it's kind of interesting to see that kind of absolutely clean press demeanor that he presents to the world. This was not in the stage direction or in any direction or conversation when I 1st came to the show but I wanted to create a character that was different wasn't the be the Talon mobster with a little dog who spoke very softly or or loudly whichever one we've seen those characters before I wanted to create someone who was hiding in plain sight that was my inspiration that was the stage direction and so that someone to me. Became Gus So that part of me that is meticulous I did lend to Gus and wanted to allow that to be a part of him because he's very careful very clean he's an observer in many ways he's a witness in other ways and he's ruthless underneath all so allows me to stand differently that allows me to feel regal and I wanted to lend that quality that roiled regal quality took us when you were given the role of the reprieved role of Gus in Better Call Saul you know you'd be playing him years earlier because it's a prequel and your seasons of Breaking Bad started in what 2009 or something so you're moving in there yes so you're playing a character who's supposed to be younger than you were in 2009 this is one of the I think issues that better Casals had to deal with that the actors have grown older but they're playing years younger than them were when we 1st saw them so they're doing that without the use of press that x. Or you know like. Things to take away wrinkles as far as I have observed so what was it like for you to figure out the younger version of your character. It was a very interesting journey to think youthfully I believe when you start to go back in time with a character specifically in better call software Gosse that you have to plant the seed in your head that you are younger it's in the eyes it's in the body 1st and then there were there the physical aspects of it where you know I have some gray now and I have more wrinkles and the how do we deal with that well we can darken the hair I've also changed my hairstyle between both shows and that was a big question for everyone but I was in phatic and knew that it was the right move to make a younger grass would be maybe a little more a wavy or Gus. Who actually may you know I wanted to give the sense that he hoped he's a little maybe even a little more handsome look at that hair look at those waves he's not just the tough guy he's a guy who actually you could see him going on a date with a woman maybe so I wanted to get that with more vulnerable Gus That was just a little bit more a little younger in terms of his attitude not so definitive knowing where he was going but not knowing exactly how to get there so the element for me started at the mental and then it transfers to the physical and then we work on the exterior to allow it to be younger and and have that come forth. John Carlo Esposito who plays Gus Fring in Better Call Saul speaking to Terry Gross in 2017 more after a break this is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air Let's get back to Terry's interview from last year with actor John Carlo Esposito he plays Gus Fring on AMCs Better Call Saul which begins season 4 on Monday it's a character he originated on that show's parent AMC series Breaking Bad which starred Bryan Cranston as high school teacher turned drug kingpin Walter White Walter works with and for Gus Fring But Gus has a problem and in this scene from Breaking Bad he's summoned Walter to a meeting in the desert it's not a friendly meeting Walter is on his knees and he's angry that Walter's brother in law a DEA agent named Hank is getting closer to uncovering the meth manufacturing operation that Walter and Gus are conducting. In the meantime there's the matter of your brother and. He is a problem you promised to resign. You have failed. Now is left to leave. You. Can't if you try to interfere. This becomes a much simpler. I would be lying. I would kill you or so. I would kill your. Ok so when you saw those lines. I have to tell your wife I will kill your son I will kill your infant daughter what was your reaction to that line and how did you decide how you wanted to say it I was really blown away by this particular scene and I I thought I could go 2 ways I could be you know an extrovert with these lines or I could stay within the character I created and just whisper this very unveiled thread I was a little shaken I have children I know Brian has children I'm looking at Walter White and I'm allowing him to know that he has not only failed with Hank but he's also failed with me water would have been the perfect perfect partner the perfect person to start another business somewhere else with if he had only done the right thing. So you decided to do the almost whisper version of that line I did I feel like there's more power within them without and I thought if I wanted to make my point it would be in my eyes and also in the whispered cadence of my voice. So in Breaking Bad you have one of the really great. Great horrible death scenes and it's now a very famous scene you are blown up in an explosion intended to kill you so the explosion happened behind closed doors and then we assume you could not have survived that but then you open the door and stumble out and straighten your tie in that still very meticulous way and I'm thinking like what he survived and is straightening his tie and then your head moves a little bit and we see that half of your face is basically blown off and it's just a really kind of shocking scene so I'm wondering what that scene was like for you. It's a very intense scene and I was very nervous about it it came from a conversation in Vince's office where after Episode 401 he called me in to let me know that the town was too big for both of us. Have to go and then we talked about how Gus might go out of this world and I was very very passionate that it shouldn't move into a cheesy supernatural way because I wanted Gus to die with dignity maybe so I wanted to be able to portray the fact that maybe his this long feud this hate for Hector Salamanca was something that would eventually take us away. In the end it allowed me to feel dignified especially the way the camera moved across the side of Gus his face that was still intact so that I could be able to do my action then he asked me in that office that day what might he be doing if an explosive event happened and I said Well Vince you see what I do and I said this for a reason because I was inspired to do this show for many reasons but I was inspired by a stage direction hiding in plain sight I was inspired by a man who you thought you knew but did not and that's what I based my character as I said as you see me I get up from a table or chair I put my jacket I sit back down I understand that and what do I do most I straighten my tie to make sure the not is correct so that I and so I want to Gus to go out of the world with dignity and I I hope and I feel like I Chief that John Karr Lois Positano speaking to Terry Gross in 2017 he costars in AMC is Better Call Saul the spinoff to Breaking Bad that begins season 4 on Monday. On our show on Monday community service rather than jail for nonviolent offenses Terry Gross talks with Julian Adler director of Policy and Research at the Center for court innovation and Judge Victoria Pratt about ways to reduce mass incarceration. Judge Pret used to preside at a community court program in New York The provides alternatives to jail to low level offenders hope you can join us for Terry Gross I'm David Bianculli. Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from the estate of Brant. Supporting the collaborative news gathering model of n.p.r. And member station newsrooms which seek to create a network that reflects him to luminance the fabric of America and from the candy to fund supporting individual dignity and sustainable communities through investments in transformative leaders and ideas learn more it k e n d e d a fund dot org Stay tuned for the world that's ahead of to on k.q.e.d. Time again to check in with Julie Delpy for some afternoon traffic that's not a good start to the weekend in Napa where the closure of Highway 29 due to police activity on the old Sonoma Road overpass northbound traffic is diverted at a moment's southbound are going to take ya at 1st street trying to clear a multi vehicle wreck Oakland East 580 before a Golf Links Road still has a right lane taken away and somebody ran out of gas on the Nimitz nor the 80 Oak Street that's in the 2nd lane from the left for k.q.e.d. Brought to you by afternoon support for k.q.e.d. Comes from Western bond advanced or restoration under the medical leadership of Dr James Harris Western bond offers natural results robotic technology and consultations with stylus for. West bond hair dot com. Coming up on the next coming . With club program what was it like to be at the top levels of President Barack Obama's foreign policy team for 8 years former deputy national security advisor and presidential aide Ben Rhodes describes his time in the White House from watching some of bin Laden raid in The Situation Room to secret negotiations with the Cuban government go behind the scenes of presidential history making tonight at 8 pm on teaching reading. This is member supported k.q.e.d. San Francisco and. North Highlands Sacramento and online k.q.e.d. Dot org 2 pm not the enemy of the people today on the world. I'm Marco Werman The u.n. Warns that President transferrable attacks against the press could lead to actual violence against journalists this Washington correspondent says yes she's worried knock on wood I haven't They threatened personally but I wouldn't be surprised if I was plus in the West Bank young Palestinians use an American tradition to help them find their voices sometimes we don't think that speaking is important because we are shy and sometimes we don't think that other people care about our story and a viral video in France shows a man slapping a woman after she calls him out for harassing her as a woman you can be harassed and if you have people who say why do you just say anything and she actually gave a reason why because you don't want to be beaten up in the streets those stories are more today on the world. I'm still not in touch with the b.b.c. News Hello the United States as well can the commitment by Zimbabwe's electoral thirty's to release the detail results of this week's elections in which President Emerson man and God and his Zanu p.f. Party would declare the victors the Us State Department urged the country's political leaders to show magnanimity in victory and graciousness in defeat the election loser Nelson Chamisa who heads the m.d.c. Has claimed the vote was rigged more details from New York in Harare each day has produced the unexpected and created the February Latinist fair in which questions about who really controls this country have deepened Is it the president or hardliners within the security establishment perhaps even former generals now in his government far from the land of hope the president wishes to project the vision is the defining dynamic yet there were today some hopeful signals the appearance of a cabinet minister instructing riot police to allow a press conference to go ahead and Nelson Chamisa is explicit disavowal of violent behavior by m.d.c. Supporters point to the influence of more moderate voices on both sides and there was actually Fergal Keane the Hollywood film producer Harvey Weinstein is attempting to have criminal charges against him dismissed he faces accusations from more than 70 women but denies having nonconsensual sex with anyone Chris Buckley reports a grand jury in New York decided Harvey Weinstein should be tried on a series of charges including sexual assault and rape but his lawyers claim that there's a series of feelings in the way the case and the evidence was presented to.