Pacifica Radio I'm Eileen alpha in Derry Republican House speaker Paul Ryan is defending a vote by Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee to release a classified memo on the Russia investigation the memo purports to show improper use of surveillance by the f.b.i. And the Justice Department in the Russia probe rank claim there may have been malfeasance at the f.b.i. There may have been milf Eason's at the f.b.i. By certain individuals so it is our job in conducting transparent oversight of the lid of the executive branch to get to the bottom of that sunshine is the best disinfectant and so what we want is all of this information to come out the committee voted to release the 4 page memo yesterday evening it could become public in the next few days following approval by Donald Trump Democrats have called it a selectively edited group of Republican talking points ranking committee Democrat Adam Schiff said the panel had crossed a deeply regrettable line we had votes today to politicize the intelligence process to prohibit the f.b.i. The Department of Justice response and their concerns to our committee and to the house and to selectively release to the public only the majority's distorted memo without the full facts. A very sad day I think in the history of this committee as I said to my committee colleagues during this hearing. Sadly we can fully expect that the president and states will not put the national interest over his own personal interest but it is a sad day indeed when that is also true of our own committee and administration officials speaking anonymously said that privately Trump has been fuming over the Justice Department's opposition to releasing the memo and a series of calls White House chief of staff John Kelly reportedly urged the Justice Department officials to do more within the bounds of the law to get the memo out. Nearly a dozen House Democrats have announced they'll stay away from tonight's 1st State of the Union address by Donald Trump they are Barbara Lee Maxine Waters John Lewis Gregory Meeks Frederica Wilson. Cyrus Danny Davis Jan Schakowsky Bobby Rush and Earl Blum in our group in our spoke to c.n.n. I respect deeply in the office of president but over the course of the last year Donald Trump has demonstrated that he doesn't respect the office he's lied repeatedly to the American people he's Soward Dischord he's. Failed to take advantage of opportunities to bring us together and simply doesn't appear to even know his own mind confusing his own staff I don't think there's anything to be gained by my dignifying a performance of a reality t.v. Star Bloom an hour said he would be with constituents in Portland Oregon tonight Massachusetts Democrat Joe Kennedy the grandson of former attorney general and Senator Robert f. Kennedy will deliver the official Democratic response for months Senator Bernie Sanders will Lifestream his remarks in response for Kenya delegate Elizabeth Guzman will have a Spanish language response California would be the 1st state to require public universities to offer abortion medication under legislation approved by the state Senate none of the $34.00 University of California or California state university campuses currently offer abortion services at their health centers instead referring students to outside providers Democratic California State Senator Connie Leyva said the lack of easily accessible abortion services is a burden for students she cited a study by you c s south. Every month up to $500.00 in $1000.00 Sudanese $34.00 you see and see issue campuses think medication abortions at off site health care facilities these college students face numerous barriers when seeking early termination of a pregnancy such as financial limitations and transportation issues denying comprehensive and accessible reproductive care on campuses interferes with the wellbeing and academic success of women and disproportionately impacts students of color and low income students a group of private donors plans to pay for up to $20000000.00 in start up costs including ultrasound equipment and training for both medical and billing staff the bill supporters say time is of the essence for women seeking a medication abortion which must occur within the 1st 10 weeks of pregnancy they say dispensing the medication on California campuses would ensure women have access in Kenya opposition leader Riley was sworn in as the people's president during a symbolic inauguration Kenya's government had warned ahead of time the ceremony would have mount to treason the government cut live transmission of the country's top 3 t.v. Channels as a huge crowd of tens of thousands gathered in a Nairobi park for the event after the ceremony updated his Twitter profile to call him self president of the Republic of Kenya as move came after 2 disputed presidential elections in August in October I'm Eileen elf and letters and politics is next good in Welcome to letters and public ticks I'm a chose rich this is a quote nature's that are out of equilibrium always suffer collapse after an abrupt price that's from Nobel Prize winning Austrian author Stefan's way and I want to tell you a story about him as we prepare for tonight's State of the Union Address this will be Donald Trump's 1st official State of the Union address some wildlife come. Verge of it starting at 6 pm Pacific Time 9 pm Eastern on most of the radio stations that air this radio program and yes like yesterday I'm going to do another short narration here at the top of the show before we get to a couple of really great guest 1st Patrice con colors one of 3 co-founders of black lives matter and then historian Jeremy SCIRI and we're going to talk about the expectations of what the presidency should be and how it has changed over time and it's still continuing to do so it's interesting stuff and I look forward to bringing that to you here in just a moment and I tried this narrative thing yesterday and talking about the histories of empires and how they're fall and rise and rise and fall that we put in correct order are in part connected to the level of tolerance and intolerance that is practiced within our societies and I asked for feedback and it was I got some and a lot of it was really positive and I appreciate that it was very kind of people I will say that I am very aware of been doing this long enough to know that when we do get nice emails and letters from people saying nice things it's usually as much a reflection of their own magnanimous Spirit as it is anything that we do here I also get it I'm trying something new and people want to be supportive of that regardless of how sloppy or whatever it may be we that's what good people do we support people when they're there trying something new and so again very kind of you and I think you I'm also happy to hear the critiques too so you can e-mail us at letters at keep a dot au r g again that's letters at k. P.f.a. Dot au Archie and I'm sure in turn will appreciate me putting that out there because well that's it you know she checks. So now you know what happens when you in turn and he media outlet you get to see all the crazy e-mails it's not to say that they're all crazy Most listeners emails I get are well reasoned thought out fair even when they are critical of what I do here but I also do get some really crazy e-mails to leave me all right now to the story I want to tell you about Stefan Zweig. 20th century writer Nobel Prize Winner of literature. And a really important really prominent in the 1st half of the 20th century I traveled to Europe this past fall and my travels are always when I try to make educational tours so much I try to take these dives into studying the history of the politics of the culture or try to learn everything that they can from the places I go and so I went to Vienna Austria in October as part of this travel which really was the home of this cultural renaissance from the Eat 100 century all the way up to the time between World War One and World War 2 And we're talking the people who resided there from the likes of Mozart and Beethoven and Einstein and forward it served it's this European cultural capital. Flourishing in art and humanities and yet in the 1930 s. It would succumb to naziism In fact even Adolf Hitler resided in Vienna before Naziism arise came to Vienna he spent his early years as a struggling painter in Vienna now the story of Stefan's way is important to me I picked up his memoir The days of yesterday to read during my trip because he witnessed this shocking change that occurred in this great city of Vienna he was a Jewish man who was in love with the arts and humanities he advocated travel all over Europe trying to find this unified European artistic tradition that brought in diverse artistic traditions into the fold Here's a quote from his memoir about Vienna and this is his reflection before the rise of fascism. Here rode the Nibelungs here the immortal Platys of music shone out over the world Gluck Haydn Mozart Beethoven should bear Brahms and Johann Strauss here all the streams of European culture converged at court among the nobility among the people the German was related in blood to the Slavic one. Garion the Spanish the Italian the French the Flemish and it was the particular genius of the city of music that dissolved all the contrasts harmoniously into a new and unique thing the Austrian Viennese again to me the stories important because it shows that how societies can change and that we can never take for granted our way of life when I look at our political reality today I am concerned about what's going on in many different levels I'm also concerned about what things look like after this moment of time what happens to our political institutions what happens to our political norms after this moment of time because rarely if ever do things not back to the way they were before now I'm not trying to idealize how things were before there were and are and remain to have deep problems in society even before this moment of time. But I'm also aware and I think when you study history you see this when things dramatically change they could change for the better and they do change for the better and they can change for the better and we should strive to change things for the better but they can also strive they can also change for the worst and history would suggest that oftentimes they do change for the worse before they get better now on Stefan's waves world he saw this change began with the 1st Great War World War one here's another quote from his autobiography for me this was the 1st warning that under the apparently quiet surface our Europe was full of dangerous Subha rainy and currents I did not have to wait long for the 2nd and the 2nd of course he means the rise of fascism Here's another quote Nobody thought of regarding these fascist who wore black shirts instead of his or a ball he read as an important factor in the future development of Europe and here another quote This one's about Hitler Hitler is achieved nothing more ingenious than this technique of slowly feeling his way and increasing pressure with accelerating force against a Europe that was waning morally and soon also militarily a long planned project to destroy all free speech in every independent book in Germany was affected according to this method to by no means was an order issued immediately that followed only after 2 years to shut down on our books and stead they 1st felt their way to see how far they could go. Stefan's way exalt and lamented not just the physical destruction of Europe but of course its intellectual traditions being Jewish he had to flee the Nazis when they arrived in Vienna he would live in exile in Brazil and on February 23rd 1941 he and his wife Charlotte Elizabeth Altman were found dead in their temporary home in the Brazilian city of the trouble is they were reportedly holding hands and death after committing suicide by. Overdosing on barbiturates. The authorities there found a manuscript of his memoir days of yesterday and that has been what I've been quoting from and which is personal and which is about his personal experience of living in this flourishing artistic society in Vienna and how it would fall to fascism and he also left a suicide note and a suicide note said this quote but after 160th year any he died at the age of 60 after 160th year unusual powers are needed in order to make another wholly new beginning those that I possess have been exhausted by long years of homeless wandering So I think it better to conclude in good time and erect bearing a life in which intellectual labor meant the purest joy and personal freedom from the highest good on earth it is unfortunate that his wife died Charlotte Elizabeth Altman along with him in committing suicide she was about half his age she was still in her thirty's just goes to show how deep how far a deep Petri arche is in whose life really matter she still had a whole life in front of her but still I tell this story as we consider our own State of the Union tonight and it's not to say that we're about to be run over by a bunch of Nazis but it's to say an encouragement to be mindful of what we have and what we can lose and what we cherish and not take those things for granted. Again let me know what you think you can e-mail me letters at keep p.f.a. Dot au or g I'm not going to do this every day it's kind of a lot of work. But this was a story of been thinking about a long time and then after we tried doing this yesterday I thought well let me tell the story to let me know if it made sense or not letters back a p.f.a. Or gee when we come back Patrice Kahn colors co-founder of Black lives matter stay tuned. Very pleased to be able to welcome to our radio station Patrice Kohn colors Patrice concolor says one of 3 co-founders of black lives matter along with Alisa Garza and open to Mattie police concolor has just written a memoir it's called when they call you a terrorist the black lives matter memoir it is also co-written with Asha band. Patrice come close my eyes I say my very good pleasure to welcome you here thank you for being here thanks thanks for having me I love oh yeah you you are you're a cape you have a listener your k p f k Listen I had as a perfect a radio only up listening to. Yes you're right about you but you write about your family in this book you use start and then either you actually. Start in Texas we'll talk about the title of your book when they call you a terrorist but if you grew up and then I Southern California listening to l.a. I asked you for we started if your mom listen you're like No just just me. Yeah just me and I I grew up and Van Nuys and you know actually the 1st time I heard keep if k. I was in the car with a friend of mine whose mother. Was listening to keep it Kay and Ralph Nader was talking at the Green Party. And I was a proclaimed hippie at that time and I think I was 12 or 13 and I said I I like I said to the mother oh I want to be a part of Green Party. This is 2000 this is the 19 that I'm in and yeah Ok. Well I heard a speech Ralph Nader gave I just started working at k.b. Of America speech that democracy now playing Nader I've never been a Republican so I'm no longer a green party either but I I was on board for that it was a you know one of the most controversial elections until I guess last year but but I always admired Nader for that there was a protest vote I think I ever took great for Ralph Nader and I wasn't so let's dive in to this when it when they call you a terrorist they called you a terrorist particularly after I think many of us will remember what happened in 2016 Micah Johnson lives I think it was at this point 2 because in there were black lives matter protests going on across the country on this day Micah Johnson was was was the man who shot and killed several police officers and dollars I remember I was in Oakland at a rally in Oakland and people got worried when that news 1st broke out about you know what was the police in Oakland even their reaction going to be but obviously I'm I'm at the periphery here you're at the you're at the heart of this issue don't tell me about what that was like for you it was terrifying it was. Sad it was. Felt like a distraction to what we were trying to do which was really lift up the names of Philander Castiel in and out and Sterling 2 black men who were killed by law enforcement one in Baton Rouge and one and Minneapolis and. The actions. In a lone shooter that would eventually kill 5 police officers you know just felt like a moment it was a moment of pause for us and kind of like what's going to happen now and what did happen what did happen now a lot of things we were. You know sort of rushed in to make a statement about what happened both because we understood that if we didn't we would be blamed for it and if we did we would be playing for a year. But at least we can sort of you know be clear. Where we stood where we stand and then I think what else happened. Was a series of right wing pendants in particular as well as. Part of our news you know news. Saying you know black eyes matter because there's their terrorist organization and feeling b. Type of fear that comes with being labeled as something that you know you're not and also being labeled as something that you know is being used to minimize and criminalize what you're doing what you're doing yeah I mean I imagine you know we should guard and Opata Matty of all have similar experiences about what it means to be co-founders of black lives matter and sort of unique experiences that maybe only 3 of you can truly appreciate or understand. Yeah I think that's true and I think for a lot of us now at this moment who are in the particular type of leadership in this movement feel the way and heaviness of. Of trying to steer you know a generation in a particular direction and while we really pride ourselves on not. Being interested and a top down. You know process we and we don't see ourselves as leader less we see a leader fall we still take direction from people you know we still really honor leadership of people and so I think there is a lot that comes with being put in movement leadership and it could feel especially on days where you and your organization and people you love are being called terrorists could feel really taunting was a follow from that up until that point we were receiving a lot of hate mail and threats but I think there is a heightened sort of threatening that came with being called terrorist and having not just right wing pundit and Piper news but also elected officials for remember Sheriff Clark Carlos terrorists. Chris Christie calls terrorists Rudy Giuliani I mean they were these these both former and current elected officials people who have worked in government we're putting our names at our organization out there and saying that it was our fault that people were dead and that definitely cause a certain amount of. Rage from white nationalist. That resulted and you know 2 lawsuits claims that were brought against the organization and and some of us in the leadership of this movement that have been dropped since the legislation matter movement is the most powerful movement that I've seen in my life in this country as born shortly after the Civil Rights Movement So I'm So I wasn't around for that obviously study it but certainly the most powerful movement that I have seen as black lives matter in my lifetime as the Donald the election of Donald Trump. Changed affected the movement yes it has. You know to be frank many of us didn't believe he was going to be like that I think I. Kept Brooks did you know and a few other people would like to tell me I'm gay on the ballot actually answering it. I think part of what happened with the election of 45 was that. We were prepared for election and Hillary were there to challenge you know another Democrat but we were prepared to challenge a fascist fascism and so many of us as in our network are our reassessing what our goals what is protest look like in this moment what is organizing what is building and strategy look at this moment and I'll tell you what we're really clear on theoretically which is we have to build political power and with building political power you have to have a strong movement. And they have to be. Part and parcel of the can't be part person which is the phrase part or so yeah. Going the wrong guy. Wolf I doubt trust me the language police will be e-mailing me. When they use another phrase because I'm too tired but they can't be separated and I think that's important because they were in this moment where people are really talking about going to the polls making sure that we vote which I think it's incredible important. And if it's divorced from a strong movement with a clear set of politics and demands that we can end up wrapped up in the cycle that I've seen the Democratic Party do which is talk a lot of good stuff with their mouth. But don't do a good job at backing it up is it like on one hand and I hear what you're saying about the Democratic Party and we remember we talk a moment a little bit about what was at the Net Roots Nation that happened in Vegas or Phoenix or it was you were there and I mean. We're going to do that but it but is it like it least if we thought you were going to have a presidency with Hillary Clinton that now you're pushing for things they are trying to achieve with with a Donald Trump presidency and a Republican controlled Congress a Republican government and really around the world even local governments right now are being dominated by Republicans and not here in California but nationally and there are movements a national movement movement a global movement. That now it's trying to hang on to what you have achieved already Yeah I mean that's a great question. I think part of the work of be a lamb and this iteration is some of us some folks are going to work really closely with challenging the right in their own states in their own localities and then some folks are going to be pushing more progressive agendas and there's on states and localities where in a midterm election year and then this midterm election we're going to see some of the most you know I think interesting races let's look at Georgia for example it might get its 1st black woman governor Governor. And in that in this moment we're also seeing as a break in the Democratic Party given that you know there's 2 Stacey's running there's black Stacy and his wife Stacey and. What a shame that white Stacey felt like she had to insert herself but the Democratic Party as I have said don't and why even though we've seen time and time again that black women not only are saving America Asiri Alabama they're saving the Democratic Party and yet there's a loyalty to black women from the Democratic Party and this isn't me you know. You know I'm not saying that the party itself this to be. You know that we don't need that the Democratic Party what I'm saying is that we need to question the leadership that it was kind of party in who's. Loyal where their loyalties lie Yeah I mean in electoral politics and also interesting in black lives matter has always been very careful never to endorse candidates are really involved in that level least in the past but but. When the game and elections is all about turnout you're absolutely correct black women have been saving the Democratic Party when you look at the level of turnout now they vote some like 9 percent and you know I mean that was more than them would have been full for Obama and now yeah. I also felt. You received a lot of controversy controversy over what happened at the Netroots Nation and Phoenix Now I know you know another. Democratic candidate showed up for that. You actually interrupted if I recall correctly Martin O'Malley Yeah nobody remembers now has actually run for president but it was the the governor of Baltimore Yeah yeah the mayor of Baltimore was the mayor and I think that what got a lot of attention was when I guess was other activist b.l.m. Activist interrupted Bernie Sanders and that I thought sparked off really important debate among progressives that was needing to happen at about race Yeah. Yeah that was a powerful action that roots it was actually very orchestrated many of us met the night before and I think part of why not support for people to remember about that actually is we're actually trying to lift up standard planting we were really. Pushing say her name and we wanted to have Sandra plans to take center stage here oh so who is born and raised and Arizona who is nature and she actually took the stage and play the sort of like theoretical groundwork for why we were doing this and then we did a powerful action with maybe a 100 of us. Talking about if we ever if we died in police custody that's a test that. I put on stage out of impulse because I was told to go on stage wasn't part of the action but I was upset with the audience's response to us which was booing as well remind you know the audience that this this. Is mostly folks from the Democratic Party like at Facebook last 7. And they clearly didn't feel. Like we were being effective by interrupting. Martin O'Malley and so I got on stage and I yelled everybody shame to them and I said black people are dying every single day we are dying and we have to do better . I think you know what would happen after that lots of interviewing a lot of talk in the media which was essentially we are going to go interrupt as many candidates as possible because of the Democratic Party because it's the Democratic Party that has milked black votes for so long and given us very little back they've given us a lot of destruction they gave us the crime bill they've given us 3 strikes law and so that in Seattle when when Mara shut down Bernie it was yeah you know we're talking about white supremacy it wasn't just a regular trolls it was progressive white liberals that were pissed Yes angry and racist and it was just like just under the surface great conversation that I think try to have about Seattle which is a predominately white city. And you know says it's progressive and yet this is the way it responded to these 2 women curious who you think Bernie eventually responded to it all my thoughts which aren't that important but but I thought at the time that you know initially he came off as a company man which he actually is I used to cover him 10 years ago when I was a couple who correspondent I don't mean that pejoratively are saying that he can be a good president I just mean yeah that's when I saw that I was like that's the part he said you know because he came up as kind of grumpy you don't want me here I won't be your leader I felt I can't say I say this for all of his supporters or even people who worked in his campaign but I felt afterwards I thought he was. Trying to address it was these issues he was and then the moment for if I was elected he totally mean it done and the thing about black people and went right back to talking out of the white working class and that is they're not abandon a group of people and so yes during that moment he was he was being held accountable this is why it this is that this is the a good moment to bring back why we need a strong movement for elected officials because people for elected official if you don't have people challenging your mind and you want why are there you do everywhere for the most part and if we look at the right they're really good to their base. They take care of their base they get that they've come in all their promises. Which is why you know long longer conversation that maybe we could have it another date we need with 2 party system is not the way we need their city and our political system because this is what we end up getting 2 parties that are sometimes tell who's who. Well in conversation with Patrice Kahn colors she is a co-founder of the black lives matter movement she's also the author of a new book it's called when they call you a terrorist a black lives matter memoir I do want to talk about your memoir because it's a very personal memoir you think you could write a book just about these past 3 or 4 years by itself but you write and you really begin with your memoir about growing up and then I it's so in California. You know we're mother your brothers there's something in there that really struck me at the beginning of your memoir and your tie your grow up low income I guess apartment complex. And you mention it's a diverse it's core but it's a diverse one a group of white people there you have a Mexican's there you have African-Americans there and I remember you talked about one particular white woman who was obese and she couldn't fit in the bathtub in the apartment building and so late at night she would bathe in the complex. Your account of that I found that movie universe was that it actually Yeah yeah well I know that's what's been interviewing you but yeah I like what moved you I guess I felt and we've never met before right now but I felt your that you had it I thought you described it with tenderness. Right and that you were you were a kid when you're watching her right and so you know there's a saying that kids can always be mean you know kids yeah yeah. And of course she wrote this is yeah but I felt a tenderness there I was a mean kid that I reacted I appreciate that actually that noticed thing I wasn't I mean kid I was actually really sensitive so she was vulnerable she was very vulnerable and I know she didn't want nobody knowing that she was bathing in the pool. And it was also this moment of like what it looks like what fat phobia looks like what Able is and looks like what it looks like to be poor. What it looks like to not be able to name your knee is not Looks like you're not here to get your needs met Yeah and this like very simple act of something that everybody needs to do which is Baby and this person has to do it in a pool that's full of chlorine and 3 you know I think it was it was sad actually it was not no way that I pitied her and more for me it was sad what why why was she living this way that kind of sadness you know why are these conditions set up to make her this way. I think it also struck me because it just reminded me in black lives matter is a movement for black people and this was a white woman but it did strike me because something I've always been. Wildly impressed about below is its emphasis on all black people. Black women obviously started by black women black trans people disabled people whatever it is that in that there that intersectionality I guess has always impressed me about black like black life matter Yeah this was a no brainer for us because we were black we were we are black women and we had been told so much in our movement and the black rates movement that you know we'll get to feminism later or get. You know. Challenge homophobia and headed over to heteronormativity later and I felt like no because this exists now for me and search for so many of us so when we started Black as matter it was very very important that we were like yeah no like this is it this is what we want we want to talk about black people we want to have this broader conversation about our lives and we want to center the most marginalized in our communities and then we're going to have to jump around a lot of time here to really have so much time via Luna's interview. But that I saw a connection to that too when you and you have this very it's a very an intense part of the book of when you and other members of Black lives matter travel to Ferguson Missouri after the killing of Michael Brown and the protester that erupted after that and you all had nowhere to stay. And there was a church that opened its doors to you and one of the things you you had to say out of your regular You better understand. We have gender nonconforming the folks that are going to be coming in on this I mean you were you were not in you were pushing the white community obviously you were also pushing the black. To show up for each other to be honest with each other to. To galvanize and this moment and not allow for our own bigotry you know our own issues get in the way of what could be possibly a moment for us to get free yeah do you think happens next for black placement everything. I think the sky's the limit I think you know I pass away some days I'm like we have to be super focused this is one thing or should we working out of the other days I'm like it's beautiful to see how much we've done and how much we've evolved and what other groups have come out of black eyes matter I'm open. Which is a blessing and a curse. But I think what I'm going now so I'm open to seeing where we evolve I don't I personally feel like I don't get to make the direction for b.l.m. But I get to be a facilitator for justice and that's what b.l.m. Has provided you feel an ownership of of it I do yeah yeah because it's something I helped develop and build. But I don't feel controlling over it you also wrote about sometimes feeling a race from it yeah I mean this moment I'm feeling particularly loved up on and seen. You know blacklists this or this memoir just received New York Times bestseller is gone the list yesterday you know sort of very lovely review and they're tearing yesterday to it was same day so I'm not feeling so racetrack now though there is moments definitely when we start a black life matter that we had to fight to be seen we had to fight to be in no one to know what we've done and see what we do today I don't feel that way but I'm a black woman in America and I know it's my might. And some responses is a positive right now has as there is a hate. Mostly it's the same trolls calling us a terrorist organization. I don't have elected officials calling us that right now which is not nice or right wing pundits necessarily but trolls know much older I can handle that Patrice concolor thank you for being here all thanks for having me I really appreciate it again Patrice Kahn colors has been our guest she is a co-founder of Black lives matter she is the author of a new memoir along with Deli it's called when they call you a terrorist a black matter. 2 and you're listening to letters and politics and it's just rich We now turn to a conversation about the position of the presidency of the United States itself joining me on the telephone is Jeremy sorry Jeremy Siri is a professor of history at the University of Texas and he is the author of a book that we will be in conversation about it's called The Impossible presidency the rise and fall of America's highest office Jeremy Surya's my very good pleasure to welcome you to this program thanks for having me on it so as the position of presidency changed or has our expectations on what a president does change or or both both image. Of George Washington who is their 1st character in my book at George Washington arrived on the scene today he would not recognize the presidency nor would he recognize what Americans ask presidents do for Washington and really for the 1st century or so the presidency was the small office for a relatively small country and Americans then care of that much what presidents did on a day to day basis did not affect their daily lives and one of the stories I recount in the book is how the office has grown grown enormously over the last century and a half to 2 centuries and how that has changed everything and in a sense set up to fail today give me that evolution of growing the office of the presidency and you look at folks like Andrew Jackson also Abraham Lincoln Yes So I what I try to show in the book is that the office has not been defined by the parchment and the ink that that makes up the constitution that only provided a starting point and that's what the Founders expected anyway over time the office has grown to serve a growing country with. Creasing needs at home for development for economic management for social control and growing challenges internationally so as we have globalized as a society we have a globalized the presidency presidents have taken on from Lincoln becoming a much greater economic actor as presidents to Theodore Roosevelt really globalizing the office through Franklin Roosevelt creating a new deal for the world to the point today where the president really defines not only our economy at home but defines much of the nature of international behavior far far from our territory that growth in this office has made the presidency into something far beyond what anyone could have imagined even a century Tell me more about Abraham Lincoln's role in this is just because the civil war and then obviously reconstruction which he was around for is just that simple in understanding you know I think that the Civil War was symptomatic of a broader challenge the country faced and the challenge was slavery and slavery really was a different economic system from the industrial capital system the industrial system of production and factory work an innovation that was coming to define the northern part of the country and Abraham Lincoln as a poor white man from the frontier was representative of a new group of Americans who came to call themselves Republicans they were the 1st real members of the Republican Party who believe that slavery and the Southern economy cut off the opportunities for poor white men who couldn't be paid what they deserved to be paid because slaves would do their work for far less and Lincoln use the presidency I describe and analyze in the book use the presidency to really push the American economy to eliminate slavery and to create an economic system that we come to call capitalism which was stitched together by the railroad and used land and cash to encourage. Production to encourage economic growth he's the 1st c.e.o. President I argue really so no other president was doing that before is not on the same of the I care a cultural based president or yeah I was agricultural base but there also was a sense of a single economy what Lincoln envisioned what the Republican Party and vision in the mid 19th century was a single integrated market economy as a source of wealth and opportunity for citizens and the vision of the economy before that period was a much more localized one and you had Southern plantation. Producers you had northern financial capitalist you had Western landed Catholics there was very different economic systems operating on the same territory you mentioned George Washington would come back today you would recognize the office of the presidency would George Washington have recognized the office of the presidency under Abraham Lincoln No I don't think he would have it was still closer to what it looked like in his time that it is today but no he would not have recognized 3 things that would have he would have found astonishing by the end of the Civil War just before Lincoln's death Lincoln was the commander of the largest land army in the world that was inconceivable to George Washington Lincoln had the power to draft citizens after the 863 conscription at that I describe in the book George Washington during the Whiskey Rebellion when he led American forces as president he had to go to governor the governor and ask them to have troops he had no he had no power conscription 2nd Lincoln was spending money on a scale that Washington could imagine and this is the growth of the dollar as a currency of the greenback and then 3rd the railroad allowed Lincoln with the combination of the telegraph to communicate and rules material and move power at a speed that would have astonished George Washington and here's an interesting way of thinking about this from the time of Alexander the great untold Washington's presidency and thereafter the fastest thing anyone has seen. As a galloping horse by the mid 19th century the train has replaced the horse and changed everything at the time and absolutely this is a true communication and transportation revolution that Abraham Lincoln in the civil war where we're part of well was one time a changing presence he is it because of just a change in reality it is in part I mean what I argue in the book is that the office has grown to serve new problems a new era in each era and as the office has grown in each area it's taken on more responsibilities from Lincoln's time through the end of World War 2 There's a lot of a lot of presidents to accomplish so much more after World War 2 the volume the enormity of the office the gigantism as I call it actually became self-defeating and presidents as I show in the 2nd half of the book have barely had time to keep up it's sort of as if they're running faster and faster from Washington's time to Franklin Roosevelt and then by the time is Franklin Roosevelt there on a treadmill that's now going so fast they're just struggling to keep up and then and we talked about. Legions rolling in the economy during his presidency it's really with Franklin Delano Roosevelt that we see a complete transformation of. What we expect from the government that's correct I call Franklin Roosevelt a national healer if it's Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt build a modern capitalist economy that we come to know of as the American economy it's Roosevelt who really uses the federal government as no one had before to serve the needs of those who are left behind Roosevelt recognized Franklin Roosevelt did that are growing economy was was also leaving many people behind and there were losers and of course during the Great Depression there were more losers than winners and he used the office of the presidency to create all kinds of agencies in the Civilian Conservation Corps to the Works Progress Administration and others to put people to work and help those who had been left behind. Would you say I'm jumping around we'll be hearing. Time that the Office of the presidency that you say we I mean basically your point today is we have these high expectations for a president that just can't be met anymore I mean I'm accurate and correct yeah yeah and there's a 2nd part to it if I might which is that it's not only that these expectations are unrealistic it's that we get frustrated when we have incredibly talented people like a Brock Obama who failed to meet his expectations and so then we turn to these other figures who promise to blow up the offices of blowing up the office is going to solve things when the problem is our expectations and the needs of our country. Are you referring to trump there I am I think the one of the reasons Trump was elected is that the American people are not dumb they recognize that the presidency was not fulfilling its promise and the frustration with that I think led people to try to blow things up and the 62000000 people voted that way rather than to try to reform things and my argument is that the office is going to large the way to fix it is to actually get in and and reform it not to blow it up so let me ask this couple is on a grappling with here one is we would you say that the Office of the presidency is more powerful or less powerful than say George Washington much more powerful more powerful much more I mean just think about this message the president using drone forces today can pretty much decide whose house he wants to buy a bomb almost anywhere in the world. That that's in human power that's too much power. And then on the other hand if the office is more powerful today yet we get this this sense that it's not powerful enough to act because it's not effective this is my point that after World War 2 the power grows but the growth of power in the kinds of power presidents accumulate actually make them less effective so let's go back to the drone example we can kill more people more efficiently than ever before from the White House but that's not solving our terrorism problem that's actually making it worse. Because every time we do that we create our terrorists Yeah yeah but we're in conversation with Jeremy saurian he is the author of the book there we're talking about it's called The Impossible presidency the rise and fall of America's highest office would you say of course John f. Kennedy has been lionized ever since his assassination would you say that his presidency though was was a failure it was a shortcoming well so I argue in the book and I try to show this very very deliberately in the book Kennedy really wanted to be Franklin Roosevelt he saw him help as the 2nd Franklin Roosevelt even had as close as advisors try to map out what Roosevelt would have done so he could do the same but the problem was he was now trying to do what Roosevelt did on a global scale from Berlin to Cuba to Vietnam and what you see and I showed this actually with David Cameron there he didn't have time to actually even understand all the issues that were coming across his plate and therefore I think made some thoughtless decision to reflect the best of his hooves and that's part of the explanation much for why we get into the war in Vietnam so compare and contrast that to me to turn other presidents who may have been able to concentrate on. The war at least more concentration on a single issue so let's go back Franklin Roosevelt I mean in a sense you say frank about it at least as much on his plate managing an economy in depression and a world war but the issues and I showed us. In the book the issues for Isabel were chunks together more closely he didn't have to worry about $150.00 different leaders of countries around the world nor did he have to deal with organized interest groups on the scale that John f. Kennedy did 20 years later so for Tennessee the issues are multiplying and the stakeholders are multiplying and therefore he has a harder time connecting chunking synthesizing the issues to make the big decisions that actually matter most just to just. Has his hands and the president has his hands and into my. The issues and issues are more specialized and separated and so this is what I show in the book I actually show pictures of their calendars Roosevelt had a lot of time to have long fought for meetings with key people Kennedy is constantly running like most of us today from meeting to meeting had sort of the email problem right we got lots of emails we answer lots of e-mails and we end the day we never actually made a decision that's a big decision that matters in relooking and calendars of other presidents to Yes yes I go I we have a calendar that's wonderful we have counters of every president for every day of their of his or her pro of his presidency from Herbert Hoover to the present and it's quite extraordinary to see the difference in their calendars it's what you expect they get busier busier and busier and accomplish less and less and less and then from j.f.k. To Obama just gets if it gets busier and busier Ronald Reagan believe it or not works twice as hard in terms of hours in office and hours in meetings that Harry Truman that's interesting that so counterintuitive but I tried twice as hard as f.d.r. Yes I mean and think of it this way Franklin Roosevelt Harry Truman even to Eisenhower they used to actually go on vacation they go away for a week or 2 Eisenhower would go to our guest of the play or got to Georgia to play golf Roosevelt would go to Shangri-La that's the area that become a Camp David later on they would get away and they would really be away you know they would take 2 or 3 people with them and they would have a vacation and what were they doing they were thinking through some of the bigger issues presidents never get vacations after John f. Kennedy because even when they go away the whole White House goes with them now we're talking about the White House here and of course the White House is only one branch of government in order to get any legislative items through that you know an f.d.r. Was able to do this with the with the Democratic controlled Congress during his period with the new deal that he had supported me and you know trade back and forth but eventually got. He needed we're in a different era now where where it seems you don't get the support from Congress I mean how much is this also to do with Congress is is just in the position of the president Oh absolutely I think there's a whole book to be written and I and others have written parts of this about the changes in Congress but I will say this as presidents have have more on their plate with every successive administration they have less time to work with members of Congress so President Obama was appropriately criticized for not spending a lot of time with members of Congress but it's not like he was wasting his time and sitting at home twiddling his thumbs and said he was dealing with a crisis in Russia he was dealing with a crisis in North Korea he was dealing with natural disasters and Matt suitings at home so a part of the problem with Congress is not simply compass it's the relationship between the executive in Congress when the executive is pulled so far away from day to day management of legislative matters in Congress would you did you get to dive into the presidency of Lyndon Johnson and I ask that because when Robert Carroll calls him the master of the Senate he that's what he was known for his relationship of being able to work lawmakers on Capitol Hill did his Did did his even a schedule stand out to you Yes I actually have an image of him of his schedule in the book it's you see what I'm a maniac. The guy had 8 pages of out of any particular day 8 pages of meetings just in the morning alone he would start early and late he would sometimes not have dinner till 10 pm because he was in a meeting that long and people waiting and came at like 6 10 pm. Johnson was the last great legislative president and he accomplished so much of the Civil Rights Act the Voting Rights Act so many important legislative milestones passed by him by the way the only Senate majority leader ever become president. And so he didn't Ormus amount and what I show though is this is again part of the explanation. For his failures abroad in particular in Vietnam because he did devote so much time to Congress on a day to day matters I did a matters he did not give the kind of sustained thoughtful attention to be that he gave a lot of time to but he felt himself boxed in and did not bring that creativity to foreign policy that he brought to them after the failure came to his handling of the war annulling of the war and his handling of the public are understanding of the war he was remarkably inarticulate explaining to Americans what the war was about lead you find with George w. Bush to me sir thank you very much thank you for having me on your knee surgery has been our guest and he is the author of the book that we have been in conversation about it's called The Impossible presidency the rise and fall of America's highest office. That doesn't the letters and politics Deanna Martinez is our producer who still or so is our in turn and Kirsten Thomas it is hard to hear you can listen to our kind of shows if they keep it cheap I mean just reach and I think you can lose. That's why. Powered by the. A day 8 hours.