Deputy for defense secretary Patrick Shanahan as acting secretary starting January 1st the abrupt decision came as Trump was said to be angry over Madis his resignation letter widely seen as a rebuke to Trump's foreign policy that has resigned last week after the president announced a u.s. Troop withdrawal from Syria rescue crews are working in Indonesia helping with the aftermath of the tsunami last night that left at least 280 people dead more than a 1000 injured Natasha Phebe a doctor with World Vision International was having dinner and just after she left the restaurant the tsunami hit she said she helped many of the injured enjoying mostly multiple trauma because they should. By not only don't want to. Risk the water dozens of people are still missing it happened on the soon to straight between Java and some of her islands state media in China say the country's legislature is considering a new law that would lift some of the restrictions placed on foreign firms in particular the forced transfer of technology the B.B.C.'s Julian Bedford has more this could be a major concession by China to international pressure complaints about the restrictions placed on foreign firms have been rising since Donald Trump announced he was in pacing additional tariffs on Chinese exports the president himself has condemned Beijing's insistence the foreign firms share that technology with partners the concession if it's passed by the National People's Congress highlights the threat to a slowing Chinese economy of a trade war with the United States the B.B.C.'s Julian Bedford reporting is the markets are trading lower at this hour the hang saying in Hong Kong it's down about 8 tenths of a percent Asia dollars down about 4 tenth's You're listening to n.p.r. News. Yes as Juno spacecraft has just passed the halfway point in its orbital mission of Jupiter N.P.R.'s Joe Palca reports the mission is taking longer than expected because of an engine problem detected 2 years ago it takes Juno 53 days to orbit the gas giant That's how long it took when Juno 1st arrived at Jupiter in the summer of 2016 the problem was supposed to trim its orbit to 14 days but a potential problem with its main engine persuaded mission managers to stay with a longer orbit but that meant the mission is taking about 3 years longer to complete it will now and in the summer of 2021 Scientists say the delay is actually working to their advantage because they are better able to plan what to do when Juno's orbit takes that closeness to the planet Joe Palca n.p.r. News at the weekend box office the d.c. Comics superhero film Aqua Man took the top spot with an estimated $67000000.00 in ticket sales the Warner Brothers movie cost $200000000.00 to make but it's already gross double that in its 3 weeks of release Mary Poppins return starring Emily Blunt and Lynn manual Miranda to be debuted in 2nd place with $22000000.00 that film narrowly edged Bumblebee the Transformers tree qual which opened in 3rd place with 21 $1000000.00 and Superman into the spider 1st came in 4th with $16000000.00 gas prices of fallen over the past 2 weeks good news for holiday travelers the average price of a gallon of regular is down 8 cents to $2.43 a gallon I'm joining her and you're listening to n.p.r. News from Washington. Support for n.p.r. Comes from n.p.r. Stations other contributors include the Jacob and delirium Lange Law Foundation supporting the health and wellbeing of underserved populations at Lang La dot org And the John d. And Catherine t. MacArthur Foundation Mack found dot org You can read the paper while you cough or check Twitter while you drive but when we all have to multitask all things considered is there no matter what else you have going off Listen every afternoon weekdays at 4 an 89.3 k. P.c.c. . We're better prepared for the big one than any big city in America which is to say we're woefully unprepared and the big one is coming January 10th from k p c c podcast. This is Science Friday I'm Ira Flatow later in the hour we'll be asking you did you use the that stick with me you're going to want to hear this but 1st we all know that plastics in the environment are a big problem and recently came word that an effort to clean up some of the plastics in the Great Pacific Garbage Patch is not going as well as planned in Europe though there are moves to tackle a problem closer to the source the e.u. Is finalizing rules for a ban on many single use plastic items Rachel Feltman science editor of Popular Science is here to fill us in on that and other selected short subjects in science Welcome back Rachel thanks for having me Ira Ok so why is the e.u. Rule a big deal you know it's a big deal because obviously there's been a lot of talk on single use plastic bans it's an obvious place to start when we talk about dealing with plastic pollution it goes without saying that something that's used once or twice before being thrown away is a bigger problem than a plastic item you bring into your house to use for a year 5 years whatever so this is would be the biggest region that would undertake something like this and it kind of begs the question of why North America isn't doing something similar you know I think in the u.s. We may start to see states banning Sinhalese plastics but really really just starting to see plastic bag ban straw bans so for the e.u. To take such a broad stance banning I think it's 10 different items plastic cutlery plates straws styrofoam takeout containers and cups Q-Tip sticks and ox who degradable plastics which includes most plastic bags. For them to take such a big stance is a big deal and one of the gifts this holiday season in our middle Strongs you can buy people on the right path and there are lots of lots of options for usable stress it's a it's a good place to start if you can. Also move on to a story from the National Zoo. That sounds like something out of the room yet so people are really excited that the National Zoo had a few weeks ago they had announced that there was a power vacuum in their naked mole rat colony. And a few days ago they announced that a queen had emerged from a bloody and long fought struggle. I think you know people love the juxtaposition of like royalty and they get more rats because frankly naked mole rats are really ugly they're very squirmy and pale and pretty much blind and the idea of them having a queen is just kind of inherently funny but the battle that's what I love about this is that once you look more into the story it becomes really fascinating so more rats are you social which is the same kind of social structure that amps and bees have it's like that hive collective where there's only really one like independently operating member of the colony and everyone else is just functioning for the common good and in fact there's just that one reproductive member of the colony the queen. I mean there are only actually 2 mammals by the way that are you social and they're both kinds of mole rats naked mole rats being one of them so they have this really unique social structure and it means that whenever a queen dies. The biggest females will start fighting with each other and whichever one lives long enough to get pregnant and reproduce then becomes the queen and once there's a queen in place something really interesting happens no other females are fertile but more importantly specifically they don't have mature sex organs like it seems like the queen is able to shut down puberty and in fact any male she doesn't want to reproduce with also don't go through puberty and that process starts up again as soon as the queen is gone so it's just very weird and cool. And I see you're not interested in me. But as we all know the year the holidays are upon us and there's some news about holidays and your health yes that this study came out claiming that Christmas Eve is the deadliest cardiovascular day of the year and there are some caveats the study only looked at Sweden so it is the day for the biggest day for heart attacks in Sweden but of course we can't apply that to the rest of the world however there is a lot of research already that shows that heart attacks are more common on holidays and there's already research showing that if you live in a predominantly Christian country that Christmas is probably the deadliest day of all which just is scientific proof that we're all actually horribly stressed out when it was $300.00 by our family not to mention depression and for years we've heard about the Persians going alright I mean it's a joyful time but it's also a very stressful time and people are also eating strange foods and traveling and it's just kind of a perfect storm if you're already at risk of a heart attack this is in there you know was unbelievable to add something else to be honest about stress that you know. Yeah but one related thing is that there is another study showing that people who are discharged from hospitals during the holiday season are more likely to die afterward just because they tend to not follow up on their care so one thing you can do is that if you're unfortunate enough to end up in the hospital you know make that follow up appointment and follow the instructions don't feel like you're being a buzz kill because you're dealing with your health a lot of it can be prevented by just advocating for yourself and taking care of yourself and finally there is a distance space object. Or far away yet in fact scientists have named it far out there yet I see specially Yes is that which I think around yeah somebody from the sixty's named. But it. About $120.00 to $138.00 you away and a you astronomical unit being the distance between the Earth and the sun and Pluto is only $34.00 a year away so this thing is really far out that's far out man and then yeah the thing I love about it is that the most distant objects that we consider part of the solar system are actually like tens of thousands of a use out so this is just remind her of how much space there is in just our solar system and how much room there is for perhaps a Planet 9 to be hiding so there's this is something maybe the size of Pluto or something smaller yet you know there it's still too soon they're saying maybe a to dwarf planet but it is they don't have enough data to tell but it's definitely like a large asteroid at the very least Farai. Thank you very much Yeah thank you Ira I love rich Feltman science editor at Popular Science thanks for being with us today thanks for having me and now it's time to check in on the state of science. This is your Louis Public Radio I want to have the radio news local science stories of national significance Ok picture this flu season is coming so you decide to drive the whole family over to the local pharmacy to get facts made right and but when you get fear your teenager is deny the shot why is there well the rules for vaccinations differ from state to state and in some states there's an age cutoff for getting a pharmacy vaccination Joining me to talk about that is Alex all game health reporter at w f a e in Charlotte North Carolina and welcome to the show Alex thanks Ira So why can't everybody get a flu shot at the same place because of state laws like you said each state has different rules about what farmers what that scene's pharmacies can give if they can give vaccines at all like in North Carolina and even list out which 5 vaccines other than the flu shot for. Mrs can give and then they have this like special exception and special age limit for the flu shot and you know the expert I talked to has been studying this and said since the 1990 s. You know states across the country have been expanding pharmacists vaccine authority so what is the age limit North Carolina for the flu shot so for the flu shot you have to be 14 or older and that was relatively recently changed to remember back to 2009 the swine flu pandemic I actually got swine flu although I was not living in North Carolina so the state medical board said we need to grant I'm urgency authority and let pharmacists give these flu vaccines to people as young as 14 and then in 2013 the state lawmakers set aright let's let's codified this and they put it into state law so how many other states have these kinds of rules. So all across the board and they vary so some states say Well pharmacists can give vaccine but then you also have to have it like a priority authorization from a doctor or a primary care physician or they can give the flu shot but they can't get other vaccines so it's really all over the map so I you know last we checked in 26 states and d.c. Pharmacists can give vaccines to people at any age but like I said there's all kinds of different limits so you have varying limits 3 year olds can get them in some states but not you know that yeah Arizona allows people as young as 3 to get vaccines at the pharmacy and it's kind of a public health question right if you want lots of people to get vaccinated so we make it easier for them to get vaccinated aka like you said take the whole family to the pharmacy and get it all done at once. Can you know I heard a story that a doctor dentist can give the vaccine to yes I asked the American Dental Association about this and they said that in Illinois and Minnesota those states are now allowing dentists to give the flu vaccine to adult patients again there is that age let me got to be 18 or older I think some of the public health theory behind this is you know if someone is coming to the dentist every 6 months but they're not going to the primary care doctor let's just get it to them while they can and let's not forget the economic side of things because you know with the way as it is I guess before it was declared unconstitutional for all preventive care is covered and so you have to insurance companies have to pay for the flu vaccine so whoever gives the vaccine can get reimbursed you know that makes a lot of sense because if you think about a people do go to the dentist for a cleaning or something much more than they probably go to the doctor was people wait 510 years to go to the doctor sometimes right. Now and so do you think that states are going to basically change their rules about the vaccination and when they can you know allow teenagers to be vaccinated so it's funny you mention that I just looked it up and earlier this week New Jersey. Signed The governor there signed a law expanding vaccination authority to pharmacist in turns of course they have to be supervised by a fully licensed pharmacist but that was to my knowledge the most recent expansion I know there has been some murmurs around the state you know that pharmacists are not thrilled that there are these age limits but you know the that the state law here actually says that if someone goes to get a vaccine the pharmacists are supposed to tell their primary primary care doctor and if the patient says well I don't have a primary care doctor and the pharmacist is supposed to tell the patient about the benefits of having a primary care doctor written by some of the doctors associations in North Carolina if you're 13 you know trying to tell a teenager Exactly exactly. Thank you Alex You're welcome have a happy holiday you do Alex Elgin his health reporter at the EFI in Charlotte North Carolina and when we come back we're going to take a break and we're going to take on some of those food safety questions you know just in time for the office holiday party is it safe to double dip in the cheese dip What about the you know spreading germs on all kinds of stuff we have a couple of expert biologists we're going to talk about this will even play a little classic piece from Seinfeld with George and you're going to you're going to love this this segment Stay with us be right back after this break. I'm Ira Flatow this is Science Friday from w. N.y.c. Studios. Hoho lawyer I'm Christie lead host of Watch from here I can tell that you public radio listeners are on the nice list because there's something pretty special coming your way tune in this weekend for a lot of holiday broadcasts the Town Hall in New York City with Rosanne Cash Jim Breuer and Chamber Orchestra the night grab some eggnog toss another log on the fire and put on those that don't one seat pajamas you got last year live from here you. Won't be needing a gift received Sunday night at 10 an $89.00 p.c.c. . Los Angeles in February sounds just delightful I'm Chris the host of Live From here your favorite weekly public radio variety show. And I cannot wait to come to our show in sunny California will be sending out our live broadcast from the will turn on February 1st tickets available at p.c.c. Dot org slash in person. It is really nice to see you I haven't seen many other humans slave trade. This is Science Friday I'm Ira Flatow if you're a Seinfeld fan perhaps you remember this classic moment George is at a party just like the kind you're going to be attending this holiday season people are schmoozing eating the crew to take a then he's caught double dipping his cracker into the dip. What are you talking about it dipped the chip it took a bite. And you dipped again. So that's like putting your whole mouth right in the dip well does double dipping a chip really infect the dip What about the 5 2nd rule where you drop some food onto the floor is it to Germany to eat and how about this holiday favorite does spiking the eggnog kill the bacteria you know the alcohol in it my next guests are to biologists who investigated these food question leave all thought about in their new book did you just eat that too scientists explore double dipping the 5 2nd rule and other food myths in the lab so if you've got questions about the bacteria and germs around us the season like when you blow out the candles the spread your germs all over the cake. These 2 guys are here for you if you have a food or German If you're wondering about our number is 84472482558447248255 or you can tweet us at Sinai fry let me introduce my guests Paul Dawson is professor of food science at Clemson University in Clemson South Carolina Brian Sheldon is professor emeritus of food microbiology and poultry science at North Carolina State University in Raleigh Welcome to Science Friday. Thank you our why they are my pleasure Paul you actually teach a class about these questions you all think about like the 5 2nd rule and double dipping in a sense you know we have a program called Creative inquiry here at Clemson and the reason they have purpose of the class is to expose students to research so rather than already addition to going to a lab if we've all remember our labs back where high school and college were you kind of receive a list of things that were of things to do and these classes the students come in a addressed problem or an issue every day you should make it get some choice and that and we attacked that in the lab so to speak with the scientific method and as you mentioned some of these in the intro these are the ones we used to. Use teach the students how to do research let me go right into that clip from George because Stan's of double dipping I'm going to ask right out is that a dangerous thing to do. Well I guess dangerous. How you approach it but in fact the matter is we did find that you do transfer all bacteria to the dip so if the people in the room are your good friends and you feel comfortable exchanging saliva with them if you will. Then it's not a problem but as you know this time of year particularly. We're concerned about the cold flu and influenza and the common cold and so forth so I guess there is some risk in doing that Brian I was going to ask what are the most common bacteria and viruses that like to munch on our food. Well that's quite a variety is there's thousands of literally manes of organisms that comprise our bodies itself it's been estimated somewhere like 5 times $10.00 to $30.00 of our going isms on this planet and about $39.00 trillion actually reside in or on our bodies and fortunately about 99 percent of those. Are seemingly harmless or actually have beneficial uses for us when we had about one percent of the known bacteria viruses actually are pathogenic or disease causing So relative to these organisms just like us they need to metabolize they need nutrients source. They carry on all the functions that we do they reproduce they communicate they are able to move and so consequently they're going to be and bought every environment that we're in and I would can't do can't do do anything without them because they are part of us and it's just a matter of that is that one percent of the organisms that did that land in that dip like Paul said. Essentially you know is or a cold virus or a flu virus or you know pneumonia virus or bacteria and that you know in that dipper or anything that we touch too and it could contain these organisms so it's a matter if you're playing the odds there's always a risk associate with anything right when life as a matter of you know how great is that risk and course the risk for us also depends upon you know our immune systems themselves if you are very aged or very young or immuno compromised in some way obviously we're going to be a greater risk. In engaging in these types of practices like double dipping and. Just everyday life let me let me in on a few things that people do if people think about he's fear is there a time a set limit at the time that you can allow the food to stay on outside on the serving payables before they go bad or does he choose to have its own clock on it. This Brian again I'll have a jump in on that one and Paul can follow with additional information if he cares to one of the recommendation is that the food not stand on. On the on the countertop or the picnic table for more than 2 hours that's depended upon what the atmospheric conditions are the environment now if you're out there in that proverbial a summer picnic and it's 90 plus degrees and you have a large say a meat containing product a chicken containing product it's sitting out there at 9 need a degree we did some some calculations if you had like 40 salmonella cells per gram of material after 4 hours you would have something like $2.00 main own selves so but we're just let inside of the holiday season inside someone's living room or kitchen or something how the recommendations still deliver one to 2 hours and some day actually if the conditions are too favorable for growth of the organism within 30 minutes you have to be refrigerated it. Wow. How. Do you want to add anything to that well yeah I just you know obviously we're talking about casseroles and food that are perishable and yet phenomenon now in the table you know not be a problem there different Some foods are very shelf recall shelf stable so yeah I mean obviously were are considering casseroles like Brian mentioned let me go to the we have a lot of people calling in let's go to the phones early Josiah and Harrisburg South Dakota I just tying. In there. Ok my question is that if you take if you're cooking some food and then you take it. Back is that. Good question. Is it tasting with a spoon is that a bad thing because it's going back into the sauce or whatever you're making Yeah that's actually kind of one of the chapters we did a study on sharing food if you will and we actually because we think of it in some cultures it's common even our culture where I can share food or actually taste food is as mentioned. By the color so you can go back to the double dipping it you are transferring oral bacteria to the food when you do that. So now again if you're going to you can can jump in again if I finish but if you continue to cook the food . Because you're there's something to destroyed by the heat on but if it's your boiling super something doesn't it oh yeah if you continue to cook it yeah you can get after it if it's like the last the last few minutes of the cooking or whatever you're probably not going to because because it's a time in temperature both growth wise and destruction wise for bacteria and viruses it's a time and temperature combination so you know 10 seconds at a particular temperature is not the same thing is a minute or 10 minutes or whatever so. Tasting is not bad if you're going to cook it thoroughly after that you know you that's why you see professional chefs when they want to take something they take a piece of bread and dip it in and then they taste it they don't want to take a spoon or something that that's probably a good practice. We hope they do that. Ok Paul let's talk about the everyone has heard of the 5 2nd rule right you can eat something off the floor as long as you pick it up within 5 seconds and you actually tested that that there's a history to this idea right where did they come from yeah we did that was also a fun part of the book in most chapters we go back and talk about food habits or practices and like you know blowing out birthday candles or the 5 2nd rule were trying to figure out where it started and really we couldn't find it I think there is a definitive origin of the 5 2nd rule but there are some writings in history actually Ganga's Khan made some statements about if he was if he was prepared for getting his con that he was good enough to eat no matter how long a stay on the floor so he had to con roll and then really there's a video or tape of Julia Child dropping a potato pancake on the stove top and make a comment. It's fine to put it back on the play of nobody's in the kitchen. So that may have been the origin of that but we actually there's kind of 2 questions there and it's kind of part of the learning of the creative encourage studies we did. Yes The question is it safe to eat if you get 5 seconds whereas we really tested is back to your transfer if you pick it up in 5 seconds and there's or can be 2 different things because it depends on really what service you drop it on so we really in our study again and again the part of the nice thing is I learned a lot in the students learn how to go about and create. Thanks pyramid so he went to a local home supply store and bought a small like $45.00 inch square pieces of carpet tile and wood flooring took them back to the lad sterilize them he laid them with salmonella and then actually let's do things like the salmonella on their services for different periods of time before dropping food Bologna in our case and white bread and then picking it up within 5 seconds 30 seconds or 60 seconds and then measuring the transfer of bacteria to that food. And again. Probably not surprising to the most to most people is it was transferred within 5 seconds instantaneously essentially So if there's contaminated right its surface is contaminated the 5 2nd rule was a myth. Let's go to the phones to Jimmy in Englewood New Jersey Hi Jimmy. Great show great so just to pick that or and. Transfer. It To do not drop down on the seat. And run you know order you know over it and it can go. Just pick that going on that you know what have you can you can you run stuff off that's dropped on the floor. Well I I think the obvious you're going to have some impact You're going to be able to rent some of the organisms off but be able to get a totally since they use the word sterile product by just simply rinsing you're not going to be able to cheat that and then it comes down to the question of you know what was on that floor to begin with. Very well could not be any pathogenic organisms but then again there could be in for you have a dog that you know that or a cat that's in the and the family and they're going back and forth across the floor and person into their litter box you know there's a there's a good chance there could be a pathogen in their eyes the rule of thumb is that I want to doubt throw it out you know about maybe it's not just the dog and cat we walking around with our shoes from the Shirley right yes you know so I don't want to blame the dog and I understand we carry a lot on our shoes as well let me ask you about the I think the candles question if you blow out the candles on a birthday cake or whatever kind of cake are you spraying the whole cake with germs . Yes Short answer yes. In fact in our studies and this is fun part 2 just a little background on that we were concerned about actually the top of the cake the icing so we creatively if falls off the cake if you will we had star found that the layers of a sterile inflow and then actually put. Icing on there and you start going to be actually stick candles through the through there through that icing to simulate a part. We try to do it is real is real world if you will if we can actually had the subjects eat a slice of pizza or take a bite of a slice of pizza kind of get the saliva going and then blow birthday candles out as if it were a birthday card party we found. And you might guess some of the studies we did you find high variation from person to person. In this case. An average of 3000 almost 3000 bacteria transferred to the cake versus virtually none and we ran a control fuel we did the exact same thing. Set it up with the icing and candles lit and everything and just remove that without blowing on there compared blowing on there versus not going on there and found like I said almost $3000.00 bacteria on the kick that was blown on on average but actually one. Cake was we found 37000 bacteria so huge variation as you might expect and you can measure a scenario we have a very young child or very we use this name in the book where you have a 90 year old grand mother grandfather having a birthday so there's actually a lot of candles on there and then they enlist the help of their grandchildren helping blow the candles out so you're getting a lot of saliva going yeah actually actually just talking like we are now you're generating called Bio aerosols and they are very low there are large enough compared to a bacteria the bacteria bacteria in your mouth or a bacteria to ride along so well in writing I have to generate a bio aerosol to moment the and to remind everybody that I'm Ira Flatow this is Science Friday from w. N.y.c. Studios. Tell you that thought Ok Ok so so you can imagine then if we're just we're just talking now we're generating those into the air what 1st of all blowing would do and sort of Certainly you're blowing forcefully to blow candles that you're going to be blowing oral bacteria and viruses in the top of the cake and directed in that in that direction right Brian mentioned earlier there are well some infectious diseases that are carried from saliva particulars just pneumonia flu Sarge Legionnaires disease and I guess step back a little bit not trying to scare anybody but doctors you can tell by the name of the book we're not trying to scare people but we are there are some serious topics and if someone's at the at a birthday party who is immunocompromised you probably want to be a little more cautious of blowing the candles out and are serving in the cake Well my was my question to after you've done all this research and you specialize in this are you are you more germ of phobic now or less fearful. I think for myself at this Paula I'm less fearful I mean nothing new. As Brian said before we live our lives pretty old now I guess and eat eat 3 meals a day you know. There are $65.00 days a year and and she writes We probably all had a bout with food borne illness but in general been very health healthy and not going to change too much what I do I am wary of in public places. I think I've always been aware of a lot more Where's an adult has done some studies washing my hands and maybe not touching some surfaces before I eat and then go to not using not touching my face with my hands and so forth but in general. I'm not going to not eat a birthday cake because somebody can also house Our number 8 I've got about a minute to the brakes if you get that in 5 come and go ahead and I think I have to say is that you remember when I gave the statistics about 99 percent of the of the microorganisms are seemingly saved and they only about one percent are problematic so I can't use that rule of thumb in but as Paul said I like to take some caution and clean my hands and what I touch at a restaurant you know menus etc right well we'll talk more about that as I have lots of phone calls lots of tweets coming in about you know shaking hands during the holiday here I'm looking at some of his fist pumping is that better than the handshake all kinds of stuff people want to know because we're going to be greeting and now have a kissing on the cheek Oh let's go get into some of the stuff after the break stay with us. I'm Ira Flatow this is Science Friday from w. N.y.c. Studios. Science Friday is supported by the Union of Concerned Scientists defending science to help protect people's health and safety learn how they're making progress at u.c.s.c. USA org Support also comes from 23 and Me a personal genetic service designed to help people understand their d.n.a. Learn more at 23 in May dot com slash w n y c And from the Alfred p. Sloan Foundation working to enhance public understanding of science technology and economics in the modern world Science Friday is produced by the Science Friday Initiative a nonprofit organization dedicated to increasing the public's access to science and scientific information learn more about their work at Science Friday dot com. In the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago the sound of the season is holiday music with a unique Island flavor you would hear it as the. New. Year deals with risk mess in the Caribbean the next Morning Edition from n.p.r. News. Hey p.c.c. . Next time on ask they were in sunny San Diego California for a holiday. American Idol alum Adam Lambert shares stories from his recent tour with Queen plus skateboarding legend Tony Hawk opens up about how he revolutionized the sport so join me. This evening at 8 an 89.3. Unwanted call truck. Do it now if you want to take it off. Because the taxi is almost over it's a great way to support quality news programs make space in your driveway. Front lawn and. We handle the paperwork. I'm Ira Flatow You're listening to Science Friday we're talking about the book did you just eat that too scientists explore double dipping the 5 2nd rule other food myths in the lab with a Paul Dawson and Brian Sheldon a great book I recommend everybody get a copy of this I want to go to a tweet that's actually close to my heart because I'm sort of guilty of doing this it comes from Mary Kate who says My step mom used to get mad at my dad for reaching into the pickle jar with his hands he'd reply if this can pickle a cucumber it can pickle my germs to me I want to know someone who ferments my own pickles and I'm guilty of doing that how right or wrong is he. Brian Yes take a stab at this and they all can follow really depends upon the pickle we're talking about I were talking about a deal pickle versus a sweet pickle the composition of the deal pickle is going to have much more asset in it vinegar and it not only Besides you know you know the fermentation that occurred but it's the assets of really controlling the microbial growth and if we're talking about a deal pickle you tie going to be able to get why it also comes down to how dirty the the person's hands are but for the most part they organise most bacteria pathogenic organisms cannot resist or cannot survive high acid content products such as pickle juice it's that want to thank you much is that why ketchup can sit out forever almost because it got a high acid in it or other condiments and they don't go bad. Yeah basically Paul you can take this thing you know exactly he even managed as a as a kind of a city if you don't add other things to I mean it's bad name but if it's just managed itself it has a low ph if you will or high acidity and that prevents back to your to your shelf stable you kind of walk through a grocery store and see things that are called shelf stable that aren't refrigerated or can't have been heated like you mentioned ketchup and mustard and other so yes that's exactly why so I so want to picnic in a picnic it's not the mayonnaise that goes bad sitting out with the potato salad or the you know the chicken salad Well it's a bit you know Brian to jump and trust you have to tell you that you've mixed potatoes and there are chicken in there and that's diluted. Buffered the acidity so then it's not no longer partners no longer low enough. Ph to prevent growth and you've probably you may have an ocular did the next year with something made by adding something that salad so I would. No I just kind of doing his off the fly here in my mind but imagine you did experiment and try to make something with catch up you might have the same result your deal if you dilute out the acidity let's let's move on to another topic let me go I'm sure to go to the phones let's say yeah let's let's go to the phone just go to Josh in Boston I Josh. Hi there go ahead. My question is about food items that may have acquired some old on them. Such as maybe a piece of broccoli and there's only a small amount of mold on it and take off the small amount of the raw. Yeah cheese has always had some mold growing on it from where I want to keep it around Yeah that's a good question this Brian and I guess again just because you don't see it doesn't mean there's not mold spores there are mostly Mark organism before they reach a certain population you can't they're invisible but they're there for the most part though there are most molds are not pathogenic to us are not toxic Janick to us I suspect that those that are growing on the food are not there are some molds so that produce toxins and aflatoxins extender that are very toxic to humans but for the most part I would not consider I would not presume that they would be on broccoli and but you know washing obvious say or cutting off the the part of it I've eaten many a moldy bread before because I get I could actually taste it you can see it but you can taste the mold in there and did perfectly fine with it let me ask you the question about rock cookie dough people love raw cookie dough is it Ok to eat raw cookie dough Well the at the f.d.a. And c.d.c. Year warn against that. And then I know recently there was an article I have from University Michigan who actually is involved in the health field saying that it saves the cages kind of a rhyme there's your if you really enjoy it and you're willing to take the risk it's up to you but that the matter is usually too. Parts of that day that can be dangerous if the flower can contain and has contained the past found contaminated flour and also the eggs of using the batter so those can contain pathogens of course they don't always contain pathogens so it's. Easy analogy in the book is kind of like wearing a seat belt you can eat roll could you do your whole life or never wear seat belt your whole life and if you don't have an accident or don't eat run in some cookie dough it's that's contaminated you're going to be Ok but you hit the one that is and you're mostly I'm going to get hurt so you know if you have an op and it's actually are some cookie dough that they're now that have been sold on the market that actually are safe to eat raw there are made without eggs and also that he flout the flowers he treated so people who like to eat raw cookie dough can can go that route they so choose So again it's a matter of you're taking a chance and if you have an option that guarantees you're not going to get sick. I would not not chance it let me go to the phones to Adam in in Chicago Hi Adam I am calling from Chicago and I was wondering. It's just dangerous to do a water like when you get more the drink in your mouth that actually touching it. Sharing with your friends that it's just as dangerous to do that. As it is actually like drinking. Beverage from the actual bottle or cup Ok. Brian or what's the matter I understood the issue here no you're not old enough to hold on if they have actually I think if I understand the question I understand the question is you know you have a little square or a bottle in red of the right put your lips on the bottle you've scored in your mouth and I would say if you're not contacting the the water the bottle and you're also you know chances are it will be used as backwash you're not going to name the war in the bottle so that is safer and yes sharing water bottles is highly frowned upon by the health industry and medical industry and are certain Actually I was reading as part of background that the sports some of the Soccer Association isn't the thing these Elan actually has a big you know broad problem that they have a warning of that so it's a good question yeah that's why you see athletes you know what football games they're squirting it into their mouth without touching it from the model let's talk about the ultimate holiday rawer and food which is egg knock Now if you spike the eggnog is out the whole kill the bacteria in the eggnog. Well it's you know there's been some studies done and actually I think. A show appeared on your show yeah the number years ago a microbiologist from Rockefeller University he had made a batch of eggnog and which he had spiked with salmonella test train and they refrigerated this for 3 weeks and they measured the populations over the 3 week period of time and saw that there was a reduction in the population and alternately elimination of the organism after 3 weeks although. I would say that you know the Food and Drug Administration Frons upon that they recommend that if you're going to do make an eggnog that's a spike of alcohol that they recommend that you start with a cooked egg base beginning and other words if that recipe has milk and you take half that portion of milk plus the egg and you heat it constantly stirring up to $160.00 degrees Fahrenheit not should be sufficient if if salmonella is a is present that you would have killed it then you Senshi allow that refrigerate to cool down then you had the rest of the recipe to it to the milk to sugar the flavorings etc and the recommendation is that you should never count on the alcohol . You know actually sterilize in the product and again back to that example of that study at Rockefeller University that was 3 weeks sitting in the refrigerator who's going to make eggnog and let it sit in 3 weeks before they start consuming it this is years they made you know a day or 2 before the event and you start drinking it immediately Yeah speaking of salmonella that let me just something that just popped into my mind that we hear all all year but maybe should be emphasized again in his cooking season and that is never to wash the chicken before you use it right. Right that's a that's a good one yeah that reason being you can aerosolized something else spread. Around the you know from the kitchen the sink the counter. You're going to cook it anyway and you've got a straw and if cooked properly of the straw and all the pathogens are salmonella in that product so washing it you're not really giving yourself any advantage and secondly it's a good chance you're spreading it around the kitchen yeah let me go to the phones let's go to Amy in Manhattan Hi Amy All right hi there. Go ahead. Amy are you there are to the Yeah Yeah I have a problem with my microphone. Yeah I was wondering on the. Couple good thing suppose you. Owe your trip or whatever you're getting in the middle and you get each day and you know you want to and bite off and then at the other end it up what do you think is that that that that. Oh yeah except you're actually your hands now are what's contaminated if you're not you know getting oral back into us that's a good way to avoid the world bacteria but. Yes I guess the hands are real. Concern of way back here is transfer as well but you know it's a way to avoid that and I'm glad you asked that question because the one thing kind of one issue things you found out the double dipping was we actually we tested salsa chalk and cheese dip and found there was more transfer to the salsa than there was to the cheese and chocolate and we thought about this because it's a thinner Dickason horse falling back in there. And root relative to the dill pickle question actually the sauce so we let the dip stand sit there 2 hours and actually saw a reduction in the number of bacteria in the salsa but it was still there so I guess to add on to that to deal pickle question it depends on how long in contact the bacteria is with the assistance that environment even after 2 hours in the salsa which is pretty low ph it still wasn't gone it's got a merit from Vail Colorado hi welcome to Science Friday I have a holiday and I love your i.q. I have a question for your act for. For here here my family always had really large Thanksgiving dinner. People around. Crazy that my uncle put together a plate. For right left over for after people Ok out side and let him have it brought up right back and I didn't hit her and there was one less than that Farah get the dog. And my grandmother who had him walk by. And it. None of us ever told her. You know I don't get that. But I was wondering how and of what your expert take on that was that they think that they think that Farragut and you know in general we have lots of cats and dogs around people do all kinds of things that I think are kind of gross even the dog from the table that Macapp walk around I've wondered about you know and their doctrine of that. But forget that it's and every Monday I remind everybody because it's going to be a long answer I think this is Science Friday from w n y c studios. Talking with Paul Dawson and Brian Sheldon authors of did you just eat that and you want to jump in on that one well I think it's Ok I don't despair said that you do with the passing of the relative. Has it Ok No I suspect it hasn't and I go back to the original scenario that Paul actually mentioned that we we you know 365 days a year 3 days 3 meals a day for Lucky and we don't always get sick and we have animals and pets and you know we eat in weed out but then again there is a risk associated with it again dogs and cats when they're a appeared to be clean obviously they don't have don't wash their hands they don't there are their feet there Paulus and so consequently there's a greater risk that the organisms that they have on their paws or in their mouth and are those things that they've picked up elsewhere and that could very well be containing an pathogens you know there is a risk associated with it. How great that risk is you know I don't think any of us know you could calculate something like that but I suspect that it's still be small but I would then never in the animal can be a clear appeared to be clean the surface can appear to be clean but it's you know it has microorganisms on it it's just matter are they are they pathogenic in nature and we go to Richard in Fort Myers Florida because he has a question I have at least half a dozen people asking Go ahead Richard. Yeah I have a question regarding toddlers and. You know little kids in general run around dropping food picking up. Seems like put it there barrels. You know and. Along with that I'm wondering if that doesn't help them to build an immunity. To me organisms that may exist and environment let me get an answer to that you know with all these toddlers they're crawling on their 4 limbs or no standing up there picking up the furred. This is good so we stop them from doing this and you probably can't stop them. First of all and certainly it does help you mean system. And there's a lot of Brian mentioned early on I think about the micro biome there's a lot of research that micro the bacteria in our body and other microorganisms are very important to our health and it would have been well known but there's a lot more being explored in that area and certainly certainly exposure to. Bacteria and viruses that a young age helps build the immune system and I guess the caviar to that would be that we all accept as adults experience and now we have a strong immune systems there are there are some things that overwhelm the immune system in some cases and so I don't want to miss exposure that yeah quick answer that is yes it certainly does I would say all right we've we have run out of time so much to talk about I want to thank both of you Paul Dawson and professor of food science at Clemson Brian Sheldon professor emeritus at North Carolina State University and rollin and authors of the book did you just eat that. Did you just eat and when it's a great book you can read an excerpt from the book on our website at Science Friday dot com Thank you for joining us today our great holiday. Before we go I want to take a minute and thank all of Science Friday's donors and people supporting their local stations with gifts individual contributions are a large part of public radio success and if you haven't made your end of your donation please consider doing next so you know public radio needs your support it's a great last thing of the year to do Charles Barkley's is our director senior producer Chris from Tally out that our producers are Alexa Lem Chrissy Taylor Katie Hal are technical engineering help from which Kim Serafin in and Kevin Wolf were active all week on Facebook Twitter Instagram all the social media and once again if you want to read an excerpt from the book we talked about did you just eat that 2 scientists explored double dipping the 5 2nd rule of the food minutes in the lab you can read an excerpt on our website at Science Friday dot com I'm Ira Flatow in New York. 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