News and this is 89.3 k.p. C.c. Tonight before midnight to be exact is the deadline to request a vote by mail ballot for the June 5th statewide primary you can request a vote by mail ballot by applying online. Returning the application on the back of the sample ballot or requesting a ballot in person at the registrar recorder's headquarters in Norwalk You can also go to dot org slash voter game plan to learn about the candidates issues and where to vote so far this year California has 13 new state laws they range from minor technical changes to responses to some of the year's most prominent issues Capital Public Radio's Ben Bradford reports this month lawmakers passed the most recent new protection for immigrants in the country without legal documentation there are situations where attorneys will ask witnesses on the stand about their immigration status whether or not it's relevant to the case Democrat Senator Scott winners measure requires a private ruling from a judge before an attorney can ask about a witness's immigration status in open court other significant bills put in place new whistleblower protections for capital staff after the rise of the meat to movement and new inspection requirements of state dams after fears of collapse in Orville Dam last year like most of the state's 13 new laws these were all urgency measures mean they took effect immediately pledge which will pass the vast majority of new laws near the end of its session in August at state capitol I'm from Brevard only the carpooling 2 left lanes are open right now because of a crash on the 10 East at the 6 o 5 I'm heading. News support for n.p.r. Comes from n.p.r. Stations other contributors include Wells Fargo established 852 and re-established 2018 with a recommitment to customers working off the principles the company was founded on Wells Fargo dot com slash re new Wells Fargo Bank and a. Good morning it's talk I'm Laurin natural pleasure to have you with us. Coming up will learn how humans started consuming the milk of other mammals who invented ice cream what you believe there's a people the French ridiculed for over consuming butter these and other important questions for food historian Mark Kurlansky the James Beard Award winning writer wrote the bestsellers cob and salt he now turns his focus to dairy I know it's going to be a lot of fun that's a little bit later this hour Mark Kurlansky his new book milk a 10000 year food fracas but 1st we turn our attention to a.b.c. Where the network announced just minutes ago it's canceling the hit comedy Roseanne which was rebooted last year to tremendous success we'll talk about what led to that move with senior editor at deadline Dominic Patton Dominic Good morning by Larry I was wondering how a.b.c. Was going to possibly deal with the fallout of Roseanne Barr's tweet this morning in which she. Said Valerie Jarrett essentially was the combination of the Muslim Brotherhood and Planet Of The Apes had a baby a just an inexplicable tweet for which she later apologized and I mean now they've responded any surprise on your part. Not at all but I will say I mean I think a.b.c. I mean there is no question that what Roseanne tweeted out was a poor and by no in all measured what you yourself said in her apology I think of the times we live in people without stuff on social media from the Oval Office on down towards unfortunately and then hope that people be forgiven afterwards for a.b.c. Which are a publicly owned company owned by the Walt Disney Corporation and there's lots of them like to the top of Bob Iger and they simply had no choice it's actually I don't want to be a consulting producer is a well known comedian Wanda Sykes who were thought that African-American said that she was not going to be returning to Roseanne I mean I think at that point they realized that they either had to stop now or what the floodgate like of a Channing Donji the president of a.b.c. Entertainment said Roseanne's Twitter statement is a poor and repugnant and inconsistent with our values and we have decided to cancel her show now Roseanne Barr after the. Unsurprising immediate outcry about what she tweeted says I apologize to Valerie Jarrett and to all Americans I'm truly sorry for making a bad joke about her politics and her looks I should have known better forgive me my joke was in bad taste I apologize I am now leaving Twitter and want to sock Santa stamp not just she would choose a consulting producer on the show right is as well Dominic Yes that's true and of course of course if you'll be pointed out the president of a.b.c. Entertainment is herself an African-American woman so I mean I think you very much have remarked that hit very close to home with a number of people and I just simply think that a.b.c. Had to make a very very quick decision they had to look at their bottom line and the reality is a.b.c. Are going to take a hit a.b.c. Less than a month ago were pawning over Roseanne Barr despite all the controversy and conspiracy. She commonly find yourself involved in they were fawning over her their upfront stance and patience on the new advertisers in New York City tight I mean the number one show in America you know for the 1st time in years etc cetera that is now gone so a lot of those promises they made less than a month ago big money promises and walked out the door along with Roseanne let's be very honest clearly racist remarks won and all the other people associated with the show of course it bears her name but when you think of all the members of the crew her fellow cast members everybody else who was tied to the show they're riding high a huge hit you know that's immediately where my good mind goes yes to all the other people whose livelihoods depend on this program Absolutely look I don't think John Goodman or Larry Macapp or Sara Gilbert are going to worry about pain or not hurting them or yeah but yeah you're right the below the line people the crew members the people who were also there are vendors or shows like these so they're you know brought in the production designer get some curtains for the condo home and the 1st goes out to someone to get there this is a local economy this is a part of how we make money how one of the largest economies in Hollywood is able to provide in the Los Angeles area this is how it works so there's a blast radius to the that is going to just be devastating to many people's lives because there are people who looked upon this after this initial revival of several shows coming back for a full season in the fall and there was a lot of high hopes that this is an anchor for a.b.c. . Anything they'd planned for so that that's gone now and is there any way I know this is just happened so we're probably not even that point discussing it anyway possibly the show given its hit status could be revived without her or I mean it's just so central to the show that there's no point in doing that Larry I mean it is called Roseanne Yeah I mean I think yeah if you want to call a show called Darlene which is the Sara Taylor character which in my mind in many ways is actually the star in the focus of this revival. Maybe you could try that but Roseanne Roseannadanna like dinner right now and whether or not how people respond to that whether contractual obligations I mean I'm sure they'll be way waves of things of lawsuits and stuff people like that that are going to go too far and I was pretty clear if there's a moral clause in her contract she pretty clearly tripped over it but you know this is something that maybe we should have been so surprised about I mean I said earlier Roseanne Barr has had commonly on social media played into a number of there's you know she says you need separate the artist and the art that's true but she also has a part of the show there's been a number of hot button if you see it you don't go here to choose where they you know talked about missions of Muslim neighbors and those is because of course proved to be proved to be a pious if you call it that by the character on the show that would actually they want that back in that era we almost forgot now the Obama era a teachable moment but this is beyond all that you can't you can't hope that some good will is going to carry you through something like that because you're simply going off the rail when something goes off the rails gone all right you know one of the things that I keep wondering is you know how many other people who've worked in Hollywood historically hold you know would make an outrageous comment like that but there's no Twitter to do it you know in this case someone has a thought like this an idea and puts it out and a whole show is finished. Well I mean I think you know I mean Mel Gibson granade is own career with drunken and he sematic and sex with the mark for a number of years last year he was nominated for an Oscar is that correct and he's been you know costar not only Will Ferrell Mark Wahlberg and Tom let's go so I mean you never say never but this is and certainly you can expect anyone to think Roseanne we're going to come with Hannah controversies but I think this one in this time and this. Is going to be interesting and I'm using that word in quotes to see the president for sponsor this on Twitter he took a lot of you get a lot of credit for the mentions or him a name but his politics and the opening episode in those magnificent ratings they got so you know and then actually present at that so I wondering if he's going to weigh into this and how that's going to impact the whole thing is a disaster for a.b.c. That this is the highest rated new show of this past season Dominic how does it compare. With with other shows like Big Bang is it is it comparable in size I mean in terms of audience size yeah oh yeah oh yeah Roseanne look a.b.c. Has not had the number one show in America for almost 2 decades they haven't had it out of tens now I guess over the past 25 minutes you know those kind of numbers are big big numbers but here's the interesting thing the comparison of course work on the immediacy you look at the gang look at the picture but over the long term they never really got beyond those initial few I believe of 8 episodes the idea of a 2nd season if they're moving into it writing they already had one of the showrunner leave leave you know that's gone. I mean. Life. Or. Gone Roseanne show canceled by a.b.c. After her tweet this morning about the former aide to President Obama Valerie Jarrett. That tweet despite Roseanne's apology saying she was leaving Twitter taking down the post brings the show to a close and Sara Gilbert who also one of the stars of the program came out very strongly against the statement as well Wanda Sykes consulting producer on the show tweeted she would not be returning to the program after the tweet that was made by Roseanne Barr if you want to weigh in on this we're at 866893 k.p.c. See that's 866-893-5722 or the Air Talk page k.p.c. Si dot org given Gilbert's prominence with the rebooted show and that you know she was such a a major factor in the cast you know combining for this do you think that she might have had any input on the series continuing. Well I mean I think there was a flurry of calls and e-mails this morning that went all around from Burbank and all around the Beverly Hills to downtown l.a. And everywhere you needed to go I think Sara Gilbert. Comes out of this relatively unscathed even by association you know one is going to be able to convince anyone that they're deliberately think believe or even have pondered anything resembling by what wrote and said tweet today I also think that as you said you know she has been a major part of this revival It really has been she's kind of taken over as one of the major producers because something Roseanne said she wanted her to do there in anger concentrate on her performance comparing the show not to worry about the politics of their guilt and Barry Barry admission and then there's been a few times if not the week where he had come out and sort of said you know to repeat myself separate the art from the artist I think if there's anything to come out of it that might come through her I don't see how they do it though it is once again could there be a show called I mean maybe they're not going to be a so-called Roseanne Sara Gilbert responded to Roseanne Barr's tweet this morning saying Roseanne's recent comments about Valerie Jarrett and so much more are a poor hunt and do not reflect the beliefs of our cast and crew or anyone associated with our show I am disappointed interactions to say the least this is incredibly sad and difficult for all of us as we've created to show that we believe in our proud of and that audiences love one that is separate and apart from the opinions and words of one cast member that statement was issued before the president of a.b.c. Entertainment came out and said that the program is cancelled effective immediately let's talk with Dustin in Studio City Dustin your thoughts on on the cancellation of Roseanne. Boy I certainly sympathize with the A.B.C.'s and agree with the decision that they make but I work in television production myself as a crew member and so I'm really thinking about them today and it just you know it seems like there's such whiplash and there's so much immediate reaction to things nowadays with Twitter and you know it makes me curious how it is going to change the industry and what might be written into stars contracts if there might be restrictions placed on them with their social media and what they can do. Like to a Twitter and Facebook handlers or. Instagram inspectors' Dustin it's a great point you raise Dominic I think I think things like that are already in place and all those dots and I'm tired to agree with you I mean I mean. The people who actually build and put the shows together are caught in the ones who suffer the most when these things go south because of a star producer or an executive has acted badly or inconsiderately or stupidly and that is heritable because analysts see anybody lose their job and when it's people who you know working people who are trying to just get by and now we're seeing the industry finally pick up an alley after a number of years of being rather thin gruel it hurts even more Having said that you know most current track agreements there is a degree of disparaging what I would call the disparaging remarks quality or as you do something of this can be if you work for Best Buy as well as if you're a star of a sitcom on a.b.c. If you do something that brings disrepute upon the company you work for generally have cause to be dismissed and. I think present that this morning. You have to worry too much about that yet can you think of any other example Dominick of a hit television show that just was immediately canceled because of the actions or the statements of the star of the show I can tell this off the top of my head but you know that doesn't mean it doesn't and hasn't happened it doesn't mean it hasn't happened over the years in the past you know long before we had social media we had people saying silly things in People magazine long before we have people saying things things of People magazine we had people getting tired exhausted the acronym for drunk on Hollywood Boulevard So I mean Yet people have done dumb things and dumb things have led and dumb and terrible things have led to shows and movies and productions being the plot being told so I'm sure it's happened I'm sure it's also happened in other cases where there have been cases like you know there was some big decisions we made around the Lethal Weapon rebirth the fact that when one of their stars was acting very badly on set including in a position when he was directing an episode and it was a big decision about how enough they were going to replace him and how that was going to be done if the show was going to be brought back yeah they want to remember 2 and a Half Men the whole year with Charlie Sheen. And then the same thing and again were made about how they were going to do that what with the finances that and the 2 and a half minute Charlie Sheen you know it's only going to be repaired and actually tied up later. They dominantly with the producers and then with the network and that set or Charlie who are going to get my payout out of it they ended up bringing in. To fill it out to season to bring it to you I mean there are ways around. A show called losing hand yeah I know it's it's a great point Dominic as always thank you for joining us to talk about this breaking news Dominic Patton senior editor deadline the t.v. And film industry news site talking about A.B.C.'s cancellation of Roseanne it's big his show the hit television comedy top rated canceled after Roseanne Barr's tweet this morning with the racial content against Valerie Jarrett the former aide to President Obama Tara talk on k.p.c. See coming up Starbucks closure for several hours this afternoon for anti-bias training we'll talk about some of the methods employed in the controversy around it in just one minute. On the next morning edition the candidates for governor of been debating a lengthy list of issues from immigration to affordable housing along with one that may surprise you this is the 1st term that babies toddlers preschoolers are being talked about by elite units for governor and it's not by accident I'm Suzanne Botley join me to learn more from key p.c.c. Reporter Prisca Nealy about how early childhood issues made it to the debate stage on Morning Edition 5 to 989.3. Hate crimes are part of California's history but how do we change that for the future maybe it takes joining the past with today's personal experiences I'm not a ski p.c.c. Education reporter joining in Pro Publica d.c. Time. At our necks in person a vent a deep and dynamic look at the past and future of hate crimes in Southern California it's May 30th at the Los Angeles Theater Center r.s.v.p. At p.c.c. Dot org slash in person. I have you with us on our talk I'm Laura mantel Coming up James Beard Award winning historian a food Mark Kurlansky when he has a new book out I can't wait to interview him because they're fascinating His previous book on Cod I mean who would write a book on cod and yet you couldn't put it down it was great it and then the one on salt about salt and its value in the world in its history so now he's turned his attention to dairy milk a 10000 year food fracas Mark Kurlansky best selling author with us later this hour but 1st we turn our attention to Starbucks in response to the arrests of 2 African-American customers at a Starbucks in downtown Philly Starbucks is closing its locations for a few hours this afternoon for anti-bias training straw bucks chairman Howard Schultz says we still aspire to be a place where everyone feels welcome part of the training is expected to focus on helping employees discover their unconscious biases but the social science used to tout the concept has plenty of critics I'd like to know your experience with anti-bias training if you've gone through it yet your workplace What did you think was the value of it what questions did you come away from the training What did you see as the pros and cons of anti-bias training if you're someone who's gone through it where 886-6893 p.c.c. 866-893-5722 You can also post on the air talk page k p c c dot org Here's the introduction to the training that Starbucks is going to show beginning on video at some 8000 stores. Without a doubt the events in fill it. Prompted us to bring $8000.00 stores and 175000 partners together on $529.00 because that is not the Aspire to be. $529.00 is an opportunity to renew our commitment to the 3rd place because we understand that racial and systemic bias have many causes sources and ways of showing up within each of us and in our communities. That from the introduction to the anti-bias training video which will kick off the process then they'll be discussions between employees had all the different Starbucks stores involved with us is Aaron Thomas a partner in paradigm diversity and inclusion strategy firm that works with a variety of different businesses Aaron the social psychologist and least the Chicago office of paradigm thank you so much for joining us thanks for having me Ira. Give us a sense of just briefly what you expect to be part of the protocol for this training today well I hope that they structure this training in the same way that paradigm which is really making sure that you teach a common understanding of what by is how it shows up the fact that we all exhibit bias these are the part of the human condition that striking a nice balance between normalizing bias just enough the folks aren't feeling threatened but not so much that they're not seeing their own personal responsibility in stewarding an inclusive workplace and then from there I highly hope that the facilitators here with employees how biased showed up at work specially in the context of their data table and most importantly to quit employees when he has little tactics actions that they should be taking on the ground in the stores to make sure that they are providing an equal experience across cost all the customers with whom they interface one of the one of the things I'm curious about is as you described we all have in-group outgroup people that look like us talk like us. Use the same sorts of terminology that we have an instinctive trust of people that we see is more like ourselves but I'm just curious how the leap is made to treating other people differently so if we consider internally some . People we think of as generally more trustworthy than others how do you measure how that actually leads to a person's actions Yeah that's a great question on an individual basis it's fairly difficult to really quantify how it is that these biases which are these mental hearing sticks that we take these shortcuts that our brains make and as you say or are highly adaptive and very much a part of us all being tribal beings how they show up in behaviors it's hard to draw that map but at an individual level we do you know through Harvard to put the implicit association test which has been around for several decades and has been taken by folks millions of people worldwide is that a societal level there's a real unique distinction in connection if you will between bias and what shows up in terms of outcomes for people of color in different neighborhoods people of color in different societies so it's a little tough to make that connection on an individual level society though there's great research by not showing Banaji and her colleagues that really show that how we think does trickle into our actions but we also see is is like the actions on the tape in that Philadelphia store thing show up in our day to day that we can qualify as discrimination and I think it's safe to to make the gas that a kernel of discrimination is the bias these the shortcuts that our brains have made so it doesn't always show up in really explicit ways but I think that a Starbucks tape actually was quite explicit example of assumptions that were made about the intentions of patrons that wouldn't have been made if those patrons looked a different way Aaron Thomas of paradigm diversity and inclusion strategy firm also with us Professor Emeritus of psychology at Ohio State University how Arcus done research on implicit bias Professor thank you for joining us. And it's a pleasure to be here so what what what are your thoughts about implicit bias training and what do you think it shows. Well there was an attempt to have implicit bias training here at Ohio State and the person who is sponsoring the. Person in the law school leave wire that came out indicated that implicit bias training would result in fair or employment fair recruitment so I called her and asked her if there was any evidence that the training had the beneficial effects and she confessed No there wasn't any evidence. She just thought it was a good idea the person she said who had put those statements in about improving recruitment and proving other things was an enthusiastic undergraduate who slipped it into the poster even though the law professor didn't want it in there or at least hadn't put it in their self and I tended to agree with the law professors of it of scientists and interested in evidence and data and if there were evidence that such training was helpful I'd be all in favor of it I haven't seen any scientific evidence yet one of the critiques I've seen of implicit bias training is that it it measures sort of group perceptions and people's familiarity with cultural associations but it doesn't really tell you about how the person him or herself thinks about particular groups just sort of ties in to the to larger cultural perception what do you think of that critique. No I think the critics right and I think you related it perfectly a major question about this implicit association test is whether or not it taps the person own prejudice or merely attempts whether the person is aware of societal stereotypes and as your other guest said there really isn't much evidence that it has to do with a person's individual behavior toward other racial groups it might just test the awareness that the person knows about the societal stereotypes so fat really the Implicit Association Test might just be a sort of a test of whether you're aware of the culture as opposed to other you harbor any prejudice Sandsting because they're people of Dani in different cultures down the implicit association test and to try and get out of that you know outside of American culture to see any the the effects are quite interesting as you see there how people make those judgments I welcome your cause if you have gone through anti-bias training I'm interested to hear what you thought of the experience did you feel it was valuable to you feel it opened up your eyes to to things that you treat people differently as a result of that or consider people differently did you feel like it had no effect on yourself but maybe would have affected other people positively in the group or did you you feel like it was not a beneficial experience I'd like to hear why either way 866893 p.c.c. Alijah in Whittier you're on air talk. So I just want to discuss a little bit about the training that I had through America or which was a federal program that put teachers into lower income communities and placed me in Los Angeles and sent me away on a 3 day diversity implicit bias training and it was interesting because. Immediately upon getting the paper that was kind of explaining the ideas of what we were doing I looked at the sources and the sources were all policyholders or special interest groups like the Unitarian Church that tend to hold on the left wing politics and when I went through the entire paper all the assertions that were made were based off of shaky science and so I didn't just disagree publicly with what was being said I sort of rejected the foundation of the argument because I have a degree in molecular biology and I've worked as a research associate for a while and some very familiar with the method of scientific research and how we come to conclusions but instead of being accepted I was sort of challenged as being ignorant and sort of patronized as being understood that Ok if I just give enough time I finally understand where I'm blinded and it was so weird we got into a point where we had to split off by our race into smaller groups to try to understand how we're the oppressors so they put in a group of white males and I had a talk about my struggle as an oppressor and so it sort of morphed devices and it felt like it was making me more aware of race and differences rather than bringing anybody together and it definitely had a negative impact on my experience like your preaching or joining us Aaron Thomas of Paratime diversity inclusion strategy what a lie just describe again that's just his perception almost sounds like a cult like experience Yeah you know it's interesting and listening to all and your caller what I'm hearing a lot of it seems to some pretty poorly designed and executed training folks are leaving feeling threatened defensive put on the hook like fingers are. And pointed out that's not a good training but I want to go back to the point around impact and really make the case for a while design training we've shown with Paradigm training that at the end of the day 99 percent of the people that go through the training to help point have awareness to increase awareness by if we go a step further than that because the sad that's not enough you have to motivate people to again manage or to throw up the need by these in there every day that are not showing up in the way that the that they did on that state that we've shown that 96 of the people that go through our training are motivated to engage in biased management strategies after that training and up to 6 months later their behaviors at least that they have actually continued to evolve and change in ways that their research shows is meaningful to people from traditionally under-represented backgrounds to folks who are perceived to be untrustworthy as you said earlier so it's unfortunate that you know by explaining get the bad rap but I really think that the devil is really in detail with Joanne and Beverly Hill says I've had implicit bias training it was fantastic because it really revealed things about myself I didn't know I found it non judge mental and very effective That's Joanne in Beverly Hills you can share your comments about anti-bias training like Starbucks employees will be undergoing today on the air talk page k p c c dot org And let us know your thoughts about it if you have gone through anti-virus training my thanks to Professor how Archy's professor emeritus psychology of Highest a university and Aaron Thomas who has the Chicago office of paradigm diversity and inclusion strategy firm coming up on air talk food historian Mark come Lasky always fun to talk with him his new book on milk and dairy all kinds of things you would have never known about milk for example one of the group of people that the for. Rench say overindulgent daughter Yeah they're French they won't find out right after this update from. Well Larry as you mentioned earlier in the show it appears President Trump is continuing to prepare for his expected summit with North Korea's Kim Jong Il in Singapore Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders says Trump will meet with the Japanese prime minister at the White House June 7th to talk about it having trouble getting through to the Superior Courts online or phone service for traffic matters today well they say it's currently unavailable due to a system upgrade if you go to the court you can still take care of traffic matters in person court officials also say if payment or other action on a ticket is due today you'll be allowed to handle it through June 8th without penalties and no negative effect on your record gas prices across the south land didn't budge much over the Memorial Day holiday weekend according to AAA they're at a 3 year high Marie Montgomery is with the Auto Club of Southern California she says while wholesale gas prices dipped slightly that hasn't been enough to push down prices at the pump they are inching up a little bit more but they're not going up very quickly and typically what we would see is the highest price peak period would be reached in May and then we would see some decline we don't know if that's going to happen this year but that is the usual pattern for Southern California Gas prices drivers in l.a. County a paying on average $377.00 a gallon the average price is about $373.00 in Orange County and $370.00 in Riverside County. News at 1138. Here such a diverse state and surreals is kind of a microcosm of cities is a new series of Take 2 it's a walkable city because it's compact it's 2.4 square miles I've always said you can hold your breath from one side to the other if you drove. Our listeners take us to their hometown this is a settlement everything the cities that make up l.a. County you. Point 3. Hearst. News organization we feel it is more important than ever to support public media k.p.c. Media are not influenced by the agendas of political parties or corporation. For the future. If you go to the Egyptian museum in Cairo you will see there from. The sarcophagus. He was the wife of Pharaoh Montu Ho-Tep the 2nd of Egypt you see on the sarcophagus relief of a man milking a cow it's circa 2016 or 2061 to 2010 b.c. But who knows how far back humans decided that milk produced by mammals was an important foodstuff man who can tell us a lot about it is food historian Mark Kurlansky the James Beard Award winning author of bestselling books on cod and on salt great to have him with us again Mark thank you so much for joining us nice to be talking to you I appreciate it so what are the what is the earliest representation that we have of human milking or drinking cow's milk. Well House milk you know that's that's one of the earliest but counties milk wasn't the 1st. There's probably goat or camel is the 1st animal. And probably in some area which is now Rock although you know it we have a tendency to date everything to some area because they have the 1st written languages have more record as you may never really trust yeah right. And so from from essentially earliest recorded history we have humans drinking mammalian milk I don't think since they began domesticating animals Ok And your book is about the fracas over met one of what have been some of the biggest controversies about dairy products. Well. I mean one of the big ones is whether human beings ought to be drinking animal health. And if so which animal should they be using and. And I think that is a recent debate oh it better that's And also the long standing debate that's a really old of a one of the more reasons a bay from the 19th century is whether we should pasteurized milk or drink raw milk . And then in the 1020th century there's a lot of arguments about feet about grass feeding about g.m.o. . But if you look at the history of the thing. The debates keep getting added on and nothing ever gets resolved if there's just more and more well there was a put in moral terms about that somehow was immoral to drink the milk of mammals. Well it was it was more that it was immoral. Not to provide breast milk for babies. And that was a longstanding thing that mentally said you know that it was the obligation of we're going to do that it's sort of like the abortion debate it's all men designing what women should do very long standing argument. And with cheese production what's the earliest historic record we have of of cheese being made. Well she's made some cheese but the Greeks and the Romans were big cheese makers and you know the thing about cheese is that it keeps it doesn't go bad. Partly because it's salted. And so there was always a problem with milk actually very few people until modern times ever drank milk because it was dangerous he could go bad so easily. So cheese and yogurt and these by products were really the the usual things that were done with milk and you mentioned that butter was was kind of a slur there used by different cultures why why was butter seen as the negative. Well the whole dairy things today. Drinking milk was seen as a native. You know in Roman society Greek society. You didn't drink milk because the milk might go bad but if you lived on a farm you could drink milk as you can be sure of getting it really fresh so it became the saying that only farmers did it so you know whenever something becomes something that only farmers do then it's considered a very low brow thing to do so the Romans why did the Europe and they saw in our northern Europeans were drinking a lot of milk and a lot of butter in the 3rd round what barbarians these people are all these dairy products you quote planted the elders saying. Butter is the choicest food among barbarian tribes and the Romans yes the Romans used it as a burnt point but wouldn't eat it yeah. It was. You know and. All these things have these the Bates you know like cheese for example it's the room with them the Greeks were really into but. A lot of subsequent people including Renaissance Italian writers had this idea of a cheese was really bad for you. You know the. Constant health arguments about these products we're talking with Mark Kurlansky who is a food historian His latest book milk a 10000 year food fracas if you have questions for him about the history of dairy products we're at 866893 k.p.c. See 866-893-5722 or the Air Talk page k.p.c. Si dot org And even includes recipes in the book you have Kato the elders recipe for a kind of cheesecake used in religious ritual which is called placenta this is a kind of a mysterious thing because it's the things been around for so long and it's not a really clear recipe so you're not really sure what it's supposed to be so a lot of people come up with different versions of it and who knows what's right so I give you the the Roman version and you can make what you want of it aright aides said be a chief get 866893 k.p.c. C. Or the Air Talk page k.p.c. Si dot org And I'll let you do you think which group was it that the French thought over indulged in butter which is hard to imagine the French saying anyone is over using butter. And yeah yeah well Celts user is rather a lot and. The Dutch used everything although they were most famous for using a lot of cheese if they were called. He's had slug before his concert was coughing . All right but I thought the French I thought there was there was a particular group that the French when it was the Flemish I guess that they that they made the point yeah ridiculing. Yeah yeah well they made the point of. Us. 866893. Or the talk page k.p.c. Si dot org We'll continue our interview of Mark Kurlansky and his new book milk do want to remind you though that k.p.c. . Show doing its next screening at the theater Renee's hotel downtown Los Angeles this coming Sunday we have tickets that are available but there's a chance the program may sell out I want to make sure that you get your seats now at k.p.c. C dot org slash person it's the 50th anniversary screening of The Graduate and joining me on stage in conversation afterwards but can really man who's made a huge impact on American film I think at one time he was the most frequent guest host of Saturday Night Live a very funny man Bucky wrote the graduate as well as so many other films like catch 22 he's going to be with us Lawrence Turman the producer of The Graduate our film critic. That's this coming Saturday night at 7 theater tickets. Org slash person will be back in just a moment. The stakes for Democrats in Iowa are high this year after huge losses recently the reason we are going to. Party. Democrats diagnose what went wrong in Iowa and try to reverse the trend by November. Afternoon on All Things Considered from n.p.r. . For clock on $89.00 p.c.c. Supporters include Casey presenting must see movies every Friday night starting at 8 classic films from Officer and a gentleman. Must see movie. Programming on 89.3 p.c.c. Made possible. For. Journalism. Under. From. Person in its 2nd season and they would love to contribute your story so go to k. P.c.c. Dot org slash unheard no experience required to have a great story you can share it right now see dot org slash unheard l.a. We're talking with food historian Mark Kurlansky who's acclaimed books on cod and on salt now followed by milk a 10000 year food fracas where it ate 66893 k. P.c.c. Or the talk page k.p.c. Si dot org You spent time taking us back to a real scandal about cow milk from the middle of the 19th century what was known as swill milk I'd never heard about this before describe what this scandal was about. Yeah this is a really tragic thing predominately in New York but in a lot of big cities breweries would have dairy set up next to them and they would they would feed the cows the flop from left over from making the beer which was the swell that's why they call that swill milk and the conditions in these dairies were horrendous really dirty and the cows never never got to move at all and. And it wasn't good feed so it produced the terrible milf that was not only dangerous but it was sort of translucent and blue and looked awful So the charge make it look better by putting chalk in it and. It was terrible stuff and people are when people used to feed it to their babies and the babies would die and . Something like 50 percent of death in New York City and 850 were. People under the age of 5 this was true in the Chicago and Boston and London and Paris. Just killing children with it with with milk. And so was there are government governmental regulatory framework that went into effect to protect people from this well milk. Well there were some journalists who did some x. Is a bit with very dramatic graving illustrations and people started getting upset about it and slowly a movement to do something about this bill. And this was right about the time that Louis pastor in France was the experimenting with pastors ation not because he was concerned of us will know he was working on something completely different. Which had to do with wine in fermentation. Case you ever wondered I was used. I wonder why the French were more into pasteurization since they invented it. And it with milk they were fed into but you know the important thing about Pastor was that he discovered that there were these nearly invisible microorganisms that cause disease . That you could kill them with heat and so then. A big big fight went on about using this process pasteurization for milk and in New York a man named Nathan Strauss who was one of the brothers of the Strauss department stores. Really champeen this. And there were people in other cities also and it was that I caught a crusade you can still find all these books there's lots of books exposition Irving milk well that Jerry's must have fought hard against this because of all the added expense to pasteurize the boring move milk they were producing it must have had a tremendously to their cost at least initially. Well yes but also not just the dairies but a lot of consumers. Didn't think that Pastor as milk was good thought that it had lost all its health properties and. That it was. An inferior milk and I'd often believe that it wouldn't taste good if there. This thing that's amazing to me about this whole story is that while this is going on all these children are dying and I mean God I just when they even my kid missed. But. They kept giving milk and arguing over which is which milk to give and it broke down into this argument between the people who phase favored pastors ation and the people who favored what was called certified milk which was raw milk that was very closely. Inspected by government and what happened in the long run as a public health issue the public health people fed you know it's just going to be too much work to supervise raw milk it's so much easier just to tell everybody they have to pasteurize And so eventually that's what went down when did the how much in ization process start from milk so that you didn't have the you know separated cream at the top. Well you know it's started in the forty's. I remember it starting in the fifty's when I was a child is we'd see get on homogenized milk you know what was now called Cream lag milk in those days was just called milk. And it was wonderful with a layer of cream on the top and these Yeah these glass bottles and it was delivered by a guy wife sued you need the white suit but Ok but it added to the old image of the male Sam Yes right right and you know I just read very clearly one day the milk wasn't any good anymore and I was like hey mom what's happened to the milk and it was a Sarah homogenous thing and you couldn't get on homogenous milk and it anymore I grew up you know with a macho milk as a kid and then when I was in high school and there was the push toward raw milk my parents were on a health food kick and so we started getting raw milk and with that little cream at the top thing and it's like wow was such a treat to drink milk during that period with when we were drinking the raw certified milk because of that it was not modularized and you could see that that difference what are your thoughts about all these these things that call themselves milk that are made from nuts there's all mund milk and so I male can you know all these problems. Well 1st of all people think of them as new but now I'm in milk certainly isn't new almond milk was very common in the middle ages because the Catholic Church. I had this belief that milk was was white blood and you weren't allowed to consume blood on holy days which are about half of the days of the year this is the same thing as eating fish instead of meat and so on those days if you wanted to make something with milk you made it with milk and you can see in medieval recipes they'll say take a cup of milk or almond milk. They're saying it's depending on what day on the calendar it is so in milk was a very well known thing and then the church stopped and forcing these rules and people stopped drinking almond milk and now it's come back and nobody nobody remembers that he's 3 a church thing and they called it milk that's interesting because I assume that was new Mark thank you so much for talking with us about your new book milk 10000 year food fracas really appreciate what you know what you're going to take on next in your food history journey Yeah salmon all great. At lunchtime perfect to bring up Mark thanks so much great to talk with you. Mark Kurlansky James Beard Award winning food historian with us talk have a terrific afternoon Fresh Air with Terry Gross his next and you don't want to miss it because David Sedaris the public radio favorite He has a brand new book that's out he'll talk about being 61 among other things David Sedaris with Terry coming up right here on 89.3 on the frame this afternoon with John Warner the very latest on A.B.C.'s cancellation of its hit show Roseanne. And then after fresh air at 1 o'clock it's b.b.c. News hour a new study revises the death toll from last year's hurricane in Puerto Rico from 64 to more than 4600 what explains the discrepancy and a vaccine that could extend the lives of those diagnosed with an aggressive form of brain cancer also why the Canadian government wants to take over a controversial pipeline expansion project Keep it here afternoon. If you happen to see smoke or flames in the back there's a brush fire burning near the 900 block of North Beverly Glen We'll keep you posted on that it's 12 noon at 89.3. This is 893 b.c.c. . A community service of Pasadena City College. The top 10 community colleges in the United States. Why why in Philadelphia I'm Terry Gross with fresh air today David Sedaris reads excerpts from his new collection of personal essays is it my fault that the good times fade to nothing the bad ones burned forever bright We'll talk about lots of things like what life is like for him at the age of 61 and how his o.c.d. Has changed over time and being in a committed relationship with his boyfriend they've been together 26 years I mean sometimes in a dream I'll have sex with somebody else and then.