Missile defenses there are already some $500.00 American troops in Saudi Arabia as part of a summer deployment of a Patriot battery u.s. And Saudi officials say Iran is responsible for a recent missile and drone attack on an oil facility in the country Iranian officials deny this Iranian supported rebels in Yemen claimed responsibility for the attack Hoffman says 2 more Patriot batteries are on standby for a Saudi deployment along with a Fed missile system Tom Bowman n.p.r. News Washington the United Nations is urging the u.s. Afghanistan and the Taliban to find a way to protect civilians that's after a recent series of attacks killed a high number of innocent people and snared in the conflict Jennifer glasses more from Kabul the United Nations cited 2 Taliban suicide bombings that killed more than 50 civilians and it said preliminary report so that u.s. Airstrikes in eastern Afghanistan killed 16 civilians and u.s. Aerial bombing and a ground operation by u.s. And Afghan forces resulted in the deaths of at least 20 civilians Jennifer glass in Kabul the government in its 3rd look at the country's 2nd quarter growth says the u.s. Economy is still expanding but at a slower pace the Commerce Department says the economy for the April through June quarter grew to 2 percent annual rate evidence economic growth is weakening many economists expect the current quarter and the remainder of the year to show even more slowing as global weakness and continued u.s. China trade tensions continue to weigh on the economy stocks lost earlier gains dragged down by concerns about the impeachment inquiry against President Trump the Dow is down 79 points this is n.p.r. . New York's attorney general was accusing Dunkin Donuts of failing to notify nearly 20000 customers about a cyber attack on their accounts back in 2015 and then failing to warn more than 300000 others about another attack years later going to a lawsuit the company knew that cyber attackers had been able to steal money customers and stored for use of Duncan stores but the company failed to inform those consumers of the breach not going for its part has pushed back against New York attorney general's contention saying it's cooperated fully with the investigation astronomers say they've discovered a surprisingly large planet orbiting a small dim star N.P.R.'s Nell Greenfieldboyce reports the find has some brief thinking ideas about how planets form the planet is a Jupiter like gas giant plenty of those have been discovered outside our solar system before but this one is weird because it orbits such a tiny star a red dwarf around 30 light years from Earth the conventional wisdom says that planets build up slowly in a disk of gas and dust that surrounds a new born star as bits of the material collide and stick together but in the journal Science researchers say that process couldn't produce a planet this big around such a puny star They say instead this planet probably formed quickly when part of the disk suddenly contract it that's been a dark horse theory of planet formation for a couple of decades this is the 1st planet to show that this sometimes happens out there now Greenfieldboyce n.p.r. News little future cell $0.08 a barrel to $5641.00 a barrel I'm Jack Speer n.p.r. News in Washington support for n.p.r. Comes from the Conrad and Hilton Foundation awarding their $2000000.00 Hilton humanitarian prize to a nonprofit organization information about Prize recipients and nominations is that Hilton Foundation dot org slash prize and Americans for the Arts. While Democrats say a growing pile of evidence supports their call for impeachment President Trump maintains he has done nothing wrong no push no pressure no nothing to. Do a hoax looks is still a big hoax today the acting director of National Intelligence testifies about the latest on Trump Ukraine and the push for impeachment this afternoon on All Things Considered from n.p.r. News from 330 to 630 on Cape p.b.s. Where news matters. This is one a I'm Joshua Johnson in Washington. On Friday activists around the world gathered for what's being called the largest climate rally in history an estimated 4000000 people participated at the center of the global strike says one key figure 16 year old Swedish activist gratitude Bird strikes are just one milestone in the international fight against climate change that tune Berg and so many other young activists have championed it's a testament to what young people have taught us about the climate crisis but what have we taught them in school these days teachers often have the job of being the 1st to educate young people about climate change and its effects one of those lessons look like and how can our teachers educate students into action instead of into fear and distress Today we continue our series no plan b. And joining us now is one A's Katherine Fink she spent some time at an institute for educators about teaching climate change Kathryn welcome great to be here Joshua tell us a bit more about the institute that you attended so last month I spent some time at the Lowell school here in d.c. They were hosting an institute for climate change education for teachers in the humanities with climate generation a nonprofit based in Minneapolis and no was climate office National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and their whole approach was that they want climate change to be taught in the classroom in an interdisciplinary fashion climate change is not new but we're no longer at this point where we can act like climate change exists in a back you know it touches you know everything we learn and how we feel and write and emote and think through every subject so I spoke with not only state bird who is a language arts teacher at the Lowell school. And she told me about the school's unique interdisciplinary curriculum that centers around climate change and by interdisciplinary I mean. Learning about climate change through fiction workshops and storytelling and field trips in the community and talking about climate change to the ones of art or role playing exercises even of un negotiations she said her students have read nonfiction books such as the boy who harnessed the wind and a long walk to water and also just to be in fiction like Exodus and the giver and ideas that the students would start to think about climate change and what the world could be like and here's part of what she told me now when the students are reading those what they're doing is they're practicing vocabulary they're practicing comprehension they're practicing determining important summarizing all those language arts skills that you would be teaching regardless of what book it is but with a book that has a climate theme when they write you know when we teach persuasive writing we write letters to family members to elected officials sometimes to the media to ask them to cover climate more when we do informational writing the students choose a topic under climate change and they do a research report on that and then there's also a narrative component which is their own dystopian idea of a future world where climate is being addressed a lot of schools have to use a lot of external motivators to help students stay focused in achieving grades are one rewards tickets all those kinds of things when the content of the teaching is something that is really relevant to children you don't need those things in the same way you have fewer problems with behavior you have fewer problems with completion of work meeting of the objectives because kids are so eager to engage and to do their best because it really matters it's not something that matters only for the teacher. Only for the class that matters in the real world so that's not only steeper the language arts teacher at the local school and I like what she said Catherine about making it relevant to children because climate change is global but it's also local So I imagine the teacher shared with you about how he tailored the climate change curriculum to reflect what students see and what they feel right around them Yeah absolutely and this is the 14th year about this Climate Institute has been put on and every year you they have you know run 50 teachers who are coming from all over the country is so folks coming from the Midwest from both coasts and that really impacts how they teach climate change in their classroom and they incorporate field trips where students can go out and really see an experience that's hands on approach and understand the tangible impact of climate change I also spoke with Caitlin Thompson who is a high school social studies teacher and my country County Maryland and I asked her how she educates her students about these vastly different effects of climate change and what impact they could have on a region especially when some aren't visible or noticeable where she lives and here's what she said honestly I think it's a double edged sword my kids get an opportunity to see a little bit more of the immediate impact because they've been to the beach they've been to the mountains you know we're local So we're close enough to see a lot of what's going on alternatively because we are so suburban and so close to areas that are urban you know being in this northeast megalopolis my kids don't understand farming they don't understand the impact of land use for agriculture land use for animal raising you know and what that means for what we're doing to the planet and that because land use is such a big part of climate change that's a big challenge because it's hard for the kids to connect to it especially with youth anecdotal evidence is the best way to get a kid in gauged in that topic kids really struggle with global scale statistics. Really struggle with this big map that's turning red they don't they can't identify with that but they can identify with a kid who used to have water running through his backyard and now doesn't or with a kid who used to live in farmland and is now breathing in smog you know they can identify with stories so looking for both global and local stories things that you can bring to life for the kids is really the most effective way to get them involved and then once they're bought in then bringing in the science bringing in the numbers bringing in the solutions but social studies teacher Caitlin Thompson from Montgomery County Maryland were speaking with one of these Katherine fink about a recent Institute for teachers to help them educate students about climate change Kathryn what kinds of districts did these teachers come from I imagine there from all over the country were most of them from districts that supported their interest in teaching climate change or were any of them facing resistance to bringing that into the classroom so it was definitely a mixed bag but I would say for the most part the teachers I spoke with did have a lot of support from their school and from their school district to sort of bolster their climate change curriculum but not everyone I spoke with came from an area where manmade climate change is accepted as fact I spoke with one teacher Well he Koku cologne who's an English teacher and Florida and here's what she told me about her students in her area youths are kind of moving in that conversation towards climate crisis and climate action I think Florida fortunately has kind of a long history of climate denial in our legislator that's changing but wasn't just the community at large with families perhaps not having themselves had that education about climate change when they were in school and so I just I worry as an educator that. As I have them become advocates they won't be able to go out and have that the tools to successfully change hearts and minds I mean we deal with flooding all the time hurricanes. Heat I mean I think all of the very visible features of climate change are seen in Florida at every level and so for me it's always been frustrating to see such layers of climate denial and I think what's really cool is that as an educator I get to kind of impact that change in the youth in the culture and then they go out like little mini ambassadors into their community and change kind of the hearts of people almost like you can't deny what's happening like every year the evacuations become more severe the flooding becomes more troublesome to communities even in central Florida so that now it's about our use becoming many advocates for climate action but also them disseminating that information to their families so that there's more understanding so then it's not them just being advocates but their families too that's why he could kook alone he teaches English in the state of Florida Katherine I think one of the things that folks look to young people for is hope in climate activism it's one of the things that gratitude were kind of smacked the un for expecting kids to be the source of hope but were the teachers hopeful were the students hopeful What was your sense when you walked away from the Institute about their general mood so I asked each teacher about this about hope and positivity in their messaging and they all seemed pretty hopeful they talked a lot about the power of positivity around climate change for their students but also for themselves and here's what some of them told me if I teach it in a more positive manner I'm seeing a lot more engagement and my students getting excited about going out into the community and talking to others our goal as educators is to empower young people to make them resilience and empower to deal with the world's greatest issues and right now climate change is a big one reiterating to them that the small actions. That they're able to take add up to big actions collectively the change in our world needs to be vast and it needs to be quick and so I'm looking at students who are ready to learn more and be active sooner rather than later Honestly you can't go to work in a school building every day without hope so hopes the only thing that's going to keep us smiling in teaching and charging had the voices of teachers at an institute about teaching climate change in the classroom as reported by one day's Katherine Fink Katherine thanks for sharing their stories with us thank you as we continue our climate coverage we would love to hear from you if you are an educator how are you dealing with climate change in the classroom or perhaps not dealing with it to your students want to talk about it are they shy about it do they not know where to start let us know leave us a voicemail 855-236-1818 comment on our Facebook page tweet us at one essay or e-mail one a a w a n u dot org Coming up we'll talk about another conversation people are having about climate change solutions family planning a growing number of people are questioning whether to bring more children into the world some of them fear the idea of raising children with increasing floods and fires and more frequent storms and others are just wary of the carbon footprint they associate with having a child what role does population actually play in the climate crisis we discussed that when we return I'm Joshua Johnson and you're listening to one egg from w.a. 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About our responses to climate change people are doing a variety of things to try and help out going vegan recycling driving less and more but we asked you what you wanted to talk about this week and one topic in particular came up over and over oh my name is Nathan I'm calling because one thing that I don't hear people talk about much and regards to climate change is. The human population if that is what is affecting the climate to possibly reduce population because on a scale of one person or 7000000000 people there's a number in there which can sustain him in the ways that we both live. And apparently And if if we can find that magic number of population maybe. That can ease ourselves also. That I don't hear him talk much Nathan thank you for raising the topic and we will talk about that with our guests this hour joining us here in studio to discuss it is Kathleen mobile guard a senior fellow at the population Institute and an adjunct professor at the University of Maryland Professor mobile garde Welcome back to want to thank you it's good to be here and joining us from Oakland is Kelsey Piper a staff writer at Vox where she writes for future perfect reporting project focused on ideas to improve the world Kelsey Welcome thanks so much it's great to be here Professor mobile garde let me start with you where do we stand right now with the world's population and the outlook for where it's going right now the world's population is about 7700000000 people and the population is growing and in some places in the world it's growing very rapidly. Demographers from the United Nations project that population by 2050. Is likely to be somewhere between 9400000000 and 10100000000 people I'm sorry 10000000000 people by when by 2050 by 2050 which is also one of the years that we have some key carbon some key temperature targets I believe in terms of the temperatures that we have to keep the earth below in order for us to stand a chance of survival that's right Kelsie what impact does population have on climate change or weekly Is there a clear consensus across the board of a causal or even correlated link between population and climate change or are we just kind of guesstimating So certainly there's the obvious with his that every person who lives on the world that emits some carbon and consumes goods that are produced by admitting carbon although the amount of carbon a minute depends tremendously on where those people are with people in countries like the United States having a person in the United States increases carbon emissions by much much more than adding a person in the parts of the world that are actually growing which are mostly poor parts of the world and there's pretty good numbers on the effects of carbon emissions from having additional people but people have other effects on the world too and those are harder to make your children for example are one of the biggest constituencies pushing to fight climate change and maybe with fewer children we'd have fewer dedicated advocates standing up for the future of the world because it's the world they're invested in and we need a new generation of clean energy technologies and solutions and people are the ones who are going to power those 2 so on that side it's much harder to measure it's interesting you mention that because we've got a number of comments to that very effect Ian wrote on our Facebook page we have a beautiful 3 month old son I'm scared of what the planet he'll be left with will be like I hope he's like Gretta meaning gratitude the climate activist and hope against hope he doesn't have to be this is the only planet we all have in Congratulations on the 3 month old by the way Renee wrote on our Facebook page The irony is that we especially need. The children of the salt thoughtful concerned empathetic loving people please fill the world with your children and you'll leave in a much much better place however Joe wrote on our Facebook page stop having children we can't even sustain the planet with the people we have now Professor mobile God what are we talking about are we talking about having no more children having fewer children like what's what's the target. It's really difficult to pinpoint exactly what a target should be when it comes to population growth and its impacts on climate change as Kelsi mentioned the places in the world that are growing the fastest right now have very small carbon footprints However we do know that over time with economic development and expanding consumption lifting people out of poverty and different places around the world that the way our population grows in the future will have an effect on the way we use and consume and produce the resources the limited resources on this planet so it's really important that we think carefully about how that population will grow what we can do to ensure that people have a high quality of life and really critically ensuring that people everywhere in the world have options and choices for how they want to if and whether they want to become parents in the 1st place right now there are far too many people around the world who don't have access to the information and the services that enable them to make those kinds of choices you see Kill me clarify that just a bit in terms of the difference between families in more developed Western nations and families in poorer parts of the world developing nations and so forth I want to be clear on what we're really talking about in terms of the differences between different kinds of families Kevin wrote on our Facebook page I fully support liberals not having children but it won't matter since more population growth comes from poor countries than the developed ones they don't have the luxury to worry about their carbon footprint they're just having more kids to increase the odds of survival Kelsey I'm not sure if that's true that kind of makes human beings sound like rabbits who are just trying to have as many children as possible to carry on their bloodline but what do we actually know about the differences between how families in different parts of the world have children so I think there are a couple complicated issues that your listeners are touching on so what consideration is yes. Population growth is being driven by population growth in poor countries not just most population growth all population growth is being driven by population growth in poor countries birth rates are below replacement meaning that people are having fewer kids than would be needed to sustain the same population size in every rich country from within the United States to Europe to East Asia those countries are mostly facing declining populations and if they're not it's because it was great it's not because it's native or great so without any climate strike without any of those considerations populations are already shrinking in the developed world so that's then that maybe leaves me a little troubled because it suggests that if your goal is stopping the world population from growing you are largely trying to persuade women who want to have children in poor countries to have fewer children and well I'm extremely supportive of giving women more options everywhere in the world options for education options for alternatives to home making If that's not what they want to do reliable country section so they don't become pregnant if they don't want to the fact of the matter is that women in poor countries value different things than women in rich countries on average and many of them want to have more than 2 children and I think it's very deeply not our place particularly not our place in order to fight back against the problem that we created and they had nothing to do with to say that they should and I think it's in fact our duty to be supportive of those families whatever form the people making them want to have including if they want a big family also worth noting that quite a few of you have made the same point that one of our listeners tweeted they wrote by population control when a lot of folks mean is fewer brown people the connection between this type of rhetoric and eugenics is undeniable pressure. I want to push back a little bit against something that Kelsey just said which is this idea that we would be telling women in poor and poor developing countries to have fewer children than they want what research shows us is that there are hundreds of millions of women in the developing world who have an unmet need for family planning what that means is that these are women who would like to avoid or delay pregnancy but don't have meaningful access to the information and services like family planning services that would help them achieve their childbearing desires because we have this huge gap in meeting women's needs around the world I think we should be focusing greater effort on closing that gap and meeting those needs and ensuring women around the world have rights and choices when it comes to their childbearing decisions and if we were able to do that we would see a slower population growth path which would go a long way toward helping us achieve what we want in terms of sustainability and addressing the climate crisis with regards to this comment from her from the list of about less brown people is that accurate I mean other parts of the world that we're talking about mostly populated by black and brown people or is it more nuanced than that I think it's much more nuanced than that as I was saying there are women in developing countries who have this unmet need for family planning they may want to have 34 children they may want large families but many of them are having larger families than they would like and so by being able to help women in the developing world achieve their childbearing desires we could come a long way towards lowing population growth globally some of you have shared some pretty remarkable stories with us about the way you view your own family planning decisions Susan emailed I am now 61 years old. At 17 I made a decision to only parent a child who was already on this planet we didn't really talk about climate change as such back then though we were aware of the negative affects on the planet of rising population rates across the globe at 31 I had my tubes tied as further commitment and assurance I thought but the planet cannot at 41 I adopted and have always been grateful for the choices I made we are speaking to Kathleen mobile guards a senior fellow at the population institute an adjunct professor at the University of Maryland and Kelsey Piper a staff writer at Vox can we be a little bit clear on what we mean about the carbon footprint of a person Kelsey I don't know if we have a more precise way of articulating this but Kelly wrote on our Facebook page from birth to death a human has an enormous carbon footprint then they die are buried in a cemetery and someone Mo's the grass around their grave Kelsie how do we quantify what our carbon footprint really is kind of hard for me to think about what the right population should be without kind of knowing what the parameters are so I think it important point here is that at our current level of carbon emissions per person there is no population that works if we were to cut the population of the United States by half and cut our carbon emissions by half that way we would still have far too many carbon emissions in a totally unsustainable amount of carbon emissions and the thing that the United States the to do is to get to 0 carbon emissions in order to keep the planet from warming sustainably we need to do that with a combination of carbon capture technology is there or move c o 2 we've already admitted and with a total transition to clean sources of energy and. Seizing to burn feels that release carbon dioxide we can't succeed if we are continuing to emit carbon at our current rate per person even if we had a much much smaller human population that's not to say that pop. Has no effect but this isn't the problem it's all in the population the kind of gets to a point presser that Linda made Linda emailed I understand the concern about the world population for a number of reasons in terms of resource exploitation and carbon emissions the developed countries mainly the us are contributing to both of these crises despite relatively flat population growth the main problem in these countries is consumption of energy and resources more so than population suppressor if that's the case then we kind of spinning our wheels talking about population it sounds like there are much bigger fish to fry than whether we should tell families to bear children or not it's a really good point I think when worth a trying to think about ways to address the climate crisis we need a lot of solutions on the table we have many many hundreds of fish to fry when it comes to addressing the climate crisis as Kelsi mentioned transitioning to clean energy is absolutely crucial we need to think about ways of enhancing natural systems to better capture and store carbon we need to see a pretty quick drawdown of carbon concentrations in the atmosphere population is just one piece of the picture when we're thinking about long term strategies for having a safe climate and certainly in my view if we are able to slow population growth and be toward the lower and of population projections 520502100 all of the other solutions that we need to take to address the climate crisis will be a little bit easier to achieve but population growth in and of itself is not causing the climate crisis but it is something that we need to consider as we think about the package of solutions that will get us to where we need to be closely I'm interested in some of the stories that you've heard from people in terms of what they have chosen to do in terms of their family planning choices let me just read 2 more that have come in Stacy emailed my husband and I have 2 children and although we. May want to consider adding to our family we have decided not to do our concerns about the environment we decided we would replace ourselves and not add any additional strain on the environment and Chris emailed I am a single white woman of childbearing age I was recently sterilized because I believe it is selfish to bring a child into this world when we cannot guarantee a sustainable and livable environment I wish more people would think of others instead of themselves. What are you hearing in terms of steps people have taken so I think one thing I hear over and over again is enormous frustration and despair at the failure of our government to tackle the climate crisis and people feel like they care deeply about this they've tried to make their voice heard they've tried to call for the necessary reforms they've heard a scary things about what's coming in the future if those reforms don't happen and that's received with silence and I think that's a lot of what's driving the interest in not having children is the sense that there is nothing that can be done on a political level nothing that can be done on a societal level because people feel like they've tried those and gone and heard but in that sense not having children is more a symptom than a solution and it's something that's coming from the desire to fix the environment but it's not going to fix the environment as we discussed whatever the human population we're going to have to transition to clean energy and we're going to have to transition to a carbon neutral economy and it doesn't solve that problem and so I do worry that people are making what can in some cases be an enormous personal sacrifice not because it will solve the problem with you can't do but just because they feel like nothing they're doing is being heard and I think they're doing matters and that's just a tragic failure of our leadership that should be addressed at that level. Kind of to the point of the leadership tweeted I hate this entire discussion because all it does is place the fixing climate change on individuals when it was created by industry. Most of these comments on population control. I'm interested in the industry. Let's get to. The population Institute and. Also want to get to some of the comments that some of you have been basically asking whether this is the kind of in which you want to bring children how much of this conversation is about the environment how much of it is environmental and how much of it is emotional. 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Before we get back to our conversation a quick word about another topic we've been following today the impeachment inquiry against President Trump 6 House committees are investigating a controversial phone call between the president and Ukraine's president Vladimir Selenski a memorandum of the call was released today to help make sense of this story we talked to Congressman Jason crow of Colorado he's one of 7 freshman Democrats who say the allegations against the president are in their words an impeachable offense Congressman Crowe had been wary of going down the impeachment road but he told us about why he's changed his tune I took my 1st oath to this country when I was a teenager you know several decades ago to uphold the Constitution and defend the country and I view that as a life time and it's more than just words to me and the other international security Democratic Pressman that joined me earlier in the week you know it's not about the prescribed outcome in my view it's about following a process that makes sense and that's fair and I get the fact that people can make their own decisions That was Congressman Jason Crowe a Democrat from Colorado you can get the latest on this impeachment inquiry from your n.p.r. Member station and online at npr dot org Back now to our conversation with Kathleen mobile guard and Kelsey Piper glad to get some more of your questions in stories and might a from Denver left us a message explaining why she has decided not to have kids her name. I am one of the 2nd kids on the all. Generally for me with climate change I chose to study it in college and today. I pretty much think that I should not have kids especially if the world is already coming to an end and none of our politicians are looking change. My to thank you for sharing your story with us I'd like to get back professor to this comment from dogwood Slim who tweeted I hate this entire discussion because all it does is place the lion's share of fixing climate change. Individuals when it was created by industry Moreover most of these comments on population control are creating platforms for eugenicists I know we've already discussed the eugenics and the racial aspect of this but what about the industry piece of it I mean. People do have to do with this because people who vote who are citizens who drive government who are responsible for deliberative democracies have to make decisions that lawmakers would follow but I also see his point was he dogwoods limbs point it's a really important point and you know I teach a class at the University of Maryland called hungry hot and crowded global challenges of the 21st century and as part of this class students are learning about global population growth climate change global hunger and how all of these issues are connected one of the assignments that students have in the class is to select an individual action that they can take about their lifestyle and to implement that individual action for 2 weeks so they'll do things like not drive their car for 2 weeks or they will eat a vegan diet for 2 weeks to see what that's like and to try to make calculations about how if more people took that action would it would it make a difference for how are trying to address these challenges. And it gets students thinking about what is this balance that's appropriate between the individual choices that I make about my lifestyle and the broader systems changes that we need that will be driven by policy and driven by economic changes in the way we produce and consume energy in the way our transportation. Transportation systems and other major systems that are responsible for for greenhouse gas emissions in the atmosphere and it's interesting for students to have that reflection on what that balance between individual choices and the larger systemic change that's needed to get us where we need to go when it comes to addressing the climate crisis I think a lot of students conclude that there are things that we can do in our individual lives that will reduce our carbon footprints but it's also extremely important for some of those individual choices to be voting and supporting the policies that we need for broader systemic change that are really going to. Able to have the impact at scale that we need to see we got a voice mail from Nate in Ohio who called and told us what he's grappling with here's what Nate left in our inbox ever since I was a teenager I've always thought that I would love to have kids I thought that the greatest thing I could do in my life is to raise children and bring them into a world that I have left better for them than when I got here 3 years in my twenty's as a climate change activist and still fighting for climate change legislation I don't know I don't know whether bringing kids into this world is the right decision I'm still debating that to this day but I firmly hope that we can win this fight and that I can bring children into a world that is sustainable and that will be worthwhile for them to live in but I still don't know you need our appreciate your sharing your thoughts with us thank you very much Nate's certainly not the only person Kelsey that we've heard this kind of thought process from some folks of really agonized over this and made some big decisions as a relates to having families or not Dan tweeted I'm 33 and I recently broke up with my girlfriend of 3 years because she wanted kids and I told her I was terrified of bringing a child into the world to suffer a terrible existence that is all but assured at this point Kelsey there's a certain nihilism or maybe fatalism is the better word that some folks are expressing that they're kind of convinced that we're screwed and why would you want to bring a child into a world that you are convinced is doomed to both sink and burn Yeah I think that's a huge part of what's driving the reluctance to have children not so much as strategic Oh if I don't have a child it will reduce carbon emissions by this much but just a fear of where we're going I do want to say that I think that the world will be worth living in 2050 and I think the world will be worth living in in 2100 for most of human history we've been a lot poorer than we are now we've had much lower concern. You know we are now and people have lived good lives happy meaningful lives and you know people live in places that are much hotter than any of the United States is going to get even under climate change and they live good lives and happy lives and so I do want to say to people at least that one thing which is that there will be good lives in 2050 and there will be 2100 and if you're longing to have children and bring children into that world then do that and right for the world you can absolutely do Professor I want to get your sense of this I hear where Kelsey is coming from I mean I would like to believe that we're not on the path to living in Mad Max Fury Road being chased by a Morton Joe trying to get gasoline like I'm hoping that that's not what the world is going to look like but I also understand the cultural fight over this that gets really personal Mary emailed thanks so much for having this valuable discussion I have a 10 year old and a 4 month old congratulations I work in an international development organization that addresses the effects of climate change on farmers in developing countries yet I want a 3rd child I feel the piercing gaze of my progressive friends and colleagues for uttering this is this whole debate more about the cultural tribes were starting to form I don't feel I hear this discussion happening on the right press or. Well that's that's a really that's a really tough issue to tackle I think our decisions about child bearing and the personal yearning that we feel to become parents and to nurture is very real so I understand that listeners viewpoint 100 percent and it's interesting that she works in international development and she can see some of the challenges that we're facing around the globe what people are given her grief. Well I think that's an unfortunate. That's an unfortunate development and I know that there are often discussions around you know these issues that are hard to talk about when it comes to people's individual consumption choices about whether you're vague and or not or whether you drive a hybrid or not and I think that is also bleeding into this realm of whether you decide to have children whether you decide to have a large family I would love to see a world and I think this is something that we could all agree on where women and families have the agency to achieve their childbearing desires and that includes the support and acceptance of people who really would prefer not to become parents there especially in the United States and other countries around the world I think that there are strong social norms that push people toward Parenthood whether they want to be parents or not it's difficult in many places to make the decision to be child free and to feel that you have the support of your family and friends and I believe that if we could get to a place where everyone really did have rights and choices around childbearing we'd see a lot more families that had no children which could create more room for those families that want to have one to 3 or larger families and that ties into a lot of other international development imperatives like education for girls and access to feminine hygiene products and all kinds of other things that are so tied into this. We also got a call from an expectant mother who I think is worth playing here here's what Katie left in our inbox My name is Katie and I'm calling from Washington d.c. My husband and I are expecting our 1st child in about 2 weeks and we really struggled with the question of if we should bring a child into a world experiencing a dire climate crisis we ultimately decided that having a child was a profound act of hope in the face of despair over the climate. But knowing that we have to do something and that we're responsible for the well being of our child and for the world here he will inhabit we've become more intentional about reducing our own carbon footprint and that of our child before here he is born now we've been biking walking or kicking public transit raising more. Not buying so much new baby stuff because there's a lot of that reducing our meat consumption looking over to clean energy sources and also advocating for policies that reduce the effects of climate change Katie thank you for sharing your story with us all the best to you for a safe pregnancy and a happy healthy newborn Trajan or Trayvon emailed I think yelling stop having kids is an easy way to excuse yourself doing other things to reduce your carbon footprint it's easy to give up a way of life you don't already have a kid if you don't already have one compared to giving up a way of life that you are entrenched in not many people are clamoring to give up their trucks or. Closer to their workplace so they can walk or ride a bike until our society can make difficult decisions about how they already live we won't see much change on our emissions let's talk about some options going forward Samantha in Chicago left us a note about what she sees as her options for starting a family it has been extremely upsetting to think about having a biological child and in a lot of ways at this point with the way things are going I feel strongly that to become a parent adoption is probably the only option I can imagine having to tell an 18 or 19 year old child in the 20 twentieth's or 2030 you know so sorry that we tried but failed and now you have to put up with you know what's left here. So in a way as a younger you know teenager I thought I would love to be a biological parent but at this point adoption is the only option for me and I'm I'm so sad that that's the reality Yes Samantha I really appreciate you being willing to share that thank you very much Kelsey what about that adoption as an option or does that still create the same amount of consumption in the long run so obviously adoption is a great option and everybody who pursues it is doing a great thing it's not an option for everybody for lots of reasons one is that there is not actually babies in need of adoption in the United States today there's older children often children with disabilities and calking with trauma and if you can't be a good loving parent to those people you should absolutely adopt them I do worry about people who want a baby adopting older kids that they're not prepared for and don't have the skills to effectively parent or do right by those kids so I don't think it's a perfect substitute You can't look at it as that the don't mean doesn't mean that adoption isn't a great thing for people who want to adopt then there is international adoptions you mentioned the concern that if you adopt internationally you're raising a child with a lot more carbon emissions than in their 1st country but actually say that that concern is secondary to concerns that some of those children are sourced and I think only with their birth parents being told falsely that this is temporary or that this is mandatory or kids who are not orphaned being said that there are fans there's ways to do international adoption that are a great thing and work for everybody but it's certainly a challenging area and it's not going to be right for everyone Molly emailed I do not plan to have any biological kids of my own but I do plan to adopt this seems like the best option for me to both limit emissions and to pass on my privilege as a white person who has been minimally. Acted by climate change to that end I think our decisions on how to act must be more centered on climate justice than just based on fear Professor mobile guard that's a really interesting point this idea of climate justice climate equity population climate change and just the disparate ways that people around the world are affected by climate change and are set upon to do something about it what do you think of Mali's of Mali's approach. The climate justice issue is that it's huge when you're thinking about addressing the climate crisis globally we know that the parts of the world that have them the fastest growing populations are the parts of the world that have been least responsible for the emissions that are causing the climate change impacts. I have spent some time working in Africa where large parts of the population are dependent on rain fed agriculture for example and to sked have to have the kinds of droughts floods and temperature shifts that are impacting agriculture sector is making life much more difficult there and that is a cruel irony because those are parts of the world that have not contributed to the climate crisis in any kind of significant way so I think your listener there is making a really important point that if we are going to tackle the climate crisis as a global community we need to think about ways that we can help the most vulnerable countries adapt to the kinds of impacts that they are experiencing that are making it more difficult for them to be lifted out of poverty and we need to think really critically about how we can support parts of the world to have more sustainable energy sources and so that economic development can proceed in those places without further damaging the climate before we go based on your reporting what are some of the big things or maybe the one or 2 big things that you would encourage families to think about as they're making this decision about family planning in the climate . So I think that every family should have the number of kids that they want and whether those are biological kids or adoptive kids or a dog traditional family arrangement I want a big family so I had 3 other adults are raising a large family as the 4 of us which is one way to do it you know you need to figure out what works for you and then dedicate your energies in effort to making the world better for your children but if you don't want children don't have them and if you do want children I think you should figure out a way to have and figure out how to do right by them I don't think it's a good idea to try and solve our climate problems by asking people to make enormous sacrifices that can't even solve the problem of pressure before we go. The thought that I would like to close with is that in investment and women and girls around the world is an investment in our future helping people to achieve their childbearing desires particularly in places where there's been a historic lack of access to information and services around reproductive health and family planning is a really valuable investment for women and for the planet Kathleen mobile guard a senior fellow at the population Institute and an adjunct professor at the University of Maryland thanks for talking to us thank you and Kelsey Piper a staff writer for future perfect at Vox Kelsey thank you thanks so much this conversation was produced by John Quinn Hill to learn more about our team visit the one a dot org slash staff until we meet again I'm Joshua Johnson thank you so much for listening this is one egg. Support for n.p.r. 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Thursday dated 26th of September that is always to be along everybody not for the 1st time on this program and now that I think about it actually not for the 1st time this week we begin with a macro economic weight what the new report from the Census Bureau today the American Community Survey It's called In the vernacular shows that the gap between rich and poor in this country is the biggest it's been since the Census Bureau started keeping track of it more than 50 years ago. The wait what part comes when I remind you that the American economy is in the longest expansion it's ever had and that unemployment is near record lows Marketplace's Nancy Marshall Genzer gets is going with the what gives There's not just one thing pushing the wealth gap wider and wider it's a mix of taxes the stock market even demographics let's start with taxes the $27000.00 tax overhaul had big cuts for top earners and business owners it lowered corporate taxes to University of Florida economist Hector cent of all says companies passed on.