Interests include the health impacts of environmental change and buyer diversity loss harmful algal blooms and the health effects of climate change Dr Looper headed the C.D.C.'s climate health program insolent was downgraded and deluded by the Trump White House in 2018 and for speaking out on the climate crisis and its public health effects in essence file for whistleblower status with the Justice Department's Office of Special Counsel and has just received the Joe a Callaway award for civic courage Welcome to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour Dr George . Thank you but you're welcome Mr Cooper Engressia Lincolns on your job or word for super courage to crudely deserve good I think good thing we get started please explain what an epidemiologist do I don't think there's enough of them in this country and they're desperately need 1000 epidemiologists do and what different areas a health and safety if they've been working on before we get into your situation Sure well let me I'll just leave it at that he had the. Covering you know an infinite amount of exposures and. We look for that between a particular exposure so bad air quality 'd and look who or what that might do this to a certain part of the population or the whole essentially you know there are data looking for cause illness and death and you know my expertise covers a wide range of environmental exposures that include bad water quality air quality extreme weather events and the like and try to build a case for why certain exposures are harmful to people this is give a specific example of your own experience now who do you mean known to such as yourself make connections they make causal connections to make own. Kinds of relationships that make us understand what's going on and for example if a new disease comes up and it's infectious epidemiologists will try to find where it came from the causes to try to find who's most vulnerable where the vulnerability is and maybe find situations where people are not as vulnerable and so absolutely critical in a highly technological society and there are just only a few 1000 epidemiologists operating in the United States so let's get to your area the Centers for Disease Control arguably is the single most important agent seen the federal government because if you dealing with global pandemics viral pandemics bacteria pandemics and the such you're doing with potentially tens of millions of fatalities and hundreds of millions of 2nd the says and yet its budget is about 7 and a half $1000000000.00 which is half of what the Pentagon spends on the ballistics missile defense program that has never worked since Reagan opened it with great fanfare they're now spending about $14000000000.00 a year already to cut rotors Now you had an 18 person staff inside the Center for Disease Control planet Georgia I believe the budget was about $10000000.00 then you are supposed to be looking into the connection between global public health and climate disruptions tornadoes destruction of had of a touch droughts widespread fires hurricanes and for example if you change the habitats the malarial carrying mosquitoes will spread malaria beyond its present regions now that's. An example of how epidemiology works you're working away at this and then the Trump regime opens its doors in January 2017 so explain to our listeners what have well I'm going to be happy to before I begin though it's important that I make it clear that you know what I'm presenting to you today is my own statement doesn't represent the federal government or the agency in which work these are my own opinions and my own statements and then I'm sitting here talking with you while I am on vacation leave so and I'm not using government time or resources to do so just to make clear to everybody that this is all my own so yeah the election happened in the fall of 2016 and a few weeks later I got called into the director's office the director for the Center National Center for Environmental networking and told me that you know we've got a problem I had been working on a large scientific meeting a 3 day meeting that was going to be held since he had Corps in Atlanta called of the climate health summit as a science meeting for 3 days and it was intended to raise awareness both within c.d.c. And the broader public health community that hey there are folks working on climate change and health were actually kind of an obscure part of public health but because recent statements by the World Health Organization director general market chanting the climate change is the single greatest threat to public health in the 21st century since the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change releases 2014 reports didn't unequivocal either that humans are changing the earth's climate system and so on that we want to get public health who are you know have their traditional bunkers that they work in that there is groundbreaking work going on climate change and how we had organized a meeting again with a blind eye to politics which was rather naive considering what had been going on in the country and in my infinite wisdom I wanted to get high level speakers for our meeting and called on Al Gore if he would like to be our keynote speaker I thought he's a great advocate for climate change and apparently that was a mistake. As the director said you know you have this meeting planned for February just 3 weeks after the inauguration and he said You have canceled me and I was on the west and we've spent this past 67 months working on this and we've got a full agenda we've got invitees with dull paid for night out the door why we can't is meeting to the optics aren't good. And I said you think the office of the good if you cancel the meeting and the news press got a hold of this this kind of sounds like scientific censorship and we have a scientific integrity policy that prohibits us from doing this and they said the optics are good I want you to send out a letter cancellation and I said not going to do that I'm not sending out a letter with my name on it align my scientific belief that this is an important topic and they were surprised that I would be so up in it but I said no this is my professional credibility here if you want to cancel a meeting call your my boss you can get the meeting but I'm not doing it and so they sent out a press release shortly after that meeting was canceled and I just sealed myself for some difficult times and this was very technical agenda here it wasn't just a celebrity speaker who we had books on the subject these were really people who some 30000 to the nuances we had this will probably have the best scientists who we did was we solicited abstracts or short blurbs about what they'd like to see the research to speak on we had a panel select the appropriate speakers we had numerous sessions on very specific topic changes in how did you ology and waterborne diseases and you know very specific technical topics for public health that we organized in 2 sessions of several speakers and we were aiming to have the biggest and best meeting of this type of today and I think we had we had pulled together fantastic meeting with all kinds of partners rationalization and it was open to the press right yes Ok so I always thought the c.d.c. Was about as impervious to partisan political intrusion is would not compete to manipulate politically what the c.d.c. Does it didn't fund it adequately but it was considered an agency of professional independence and so I was pretty astonished even with my minimal regard for the Trump people that they began moving in now how did they move then did they appoint a new director. Who is taking orders did they put people at secondary levels under the new director I mean it's just astonishing that an agency that is full of Ph D.'s and m D's et cetera suddenly became a political football for Donald Trump who is called Climate Disruption quote a Chinese hoax and quote So how did this happen and it came down on you like a hammer We'll talk about that in a moment yeah you know in my 17 years at the agency I held the the exact same view that this was a science driven agency done so for the protection of people's health and that politics had nothing to do with it and I had operated my program and the strategies that wouldn't Boinc looting unfortunately inviting Al Gore in a political environment you know it's a wonderful organization with incredibly passionate and driven scientists that are so hungry for their mission that you know we spend inordinate amount of hours working on work that we do we just have enormous pride in and I have no direct knowledge of how this happened the individual that pricey The senator rector that asked me to cancel the meeting was put in place during the Obama administration and I think at that time we had a director that was on his way out we knew that but I I don't know who made that decision or the most frightening thing actually is that somebody would make a decision like this and then to supporting the potential blowback for the administration and that to me is frightening because it's the most insidious form of power and when you can get people to do things for you without even asking them that I think is the most frightening thing that people will act on your behalf in ways that they normally wouldn't merely out of fear of what you like to do so you know I suspect that's the case and I It frightens me that we would go down that path well one of the ways they kept you down was to reorganize which is a typical bureaucratic technique so what they took your 18 person climate in the health program and subsumed. Under a larger program dedicated to the problems of asthma. And so it was fair to say that your program while technically not abolished it was degraded and diluted and then they pushed you out for valid you to even talk to your 18 members not have and I understand that if you want to come back to where you worked for a visit you had to get permission and you were in a state of limbo suspended but not fired Could you describe. In addition I was escorted by armed guards when I needed to get some books out of my office and I had an armed escort they asked me to come at 11 am which is the height of the day when everybody is around intending to humiliate me and marched me through our large 10 story office building with a large armed guard behind me that even called me to the bathroom everything but shackles and irons cracked and and Robin my 17 years at the c.d.c. I've never been focused to sideways I've never been reprimanded in any way I've received outstanding performance reviews and promotions a lot any attempt at making my character unsavory so they did a number of things to the climate health program which is appropriated in a discrete line item in the budget which means Congress appropriate $10000000000.00 for climate health program at c.d.c. Since it's a direct line it cannot be by law used in any other way and I as a manager in charge of that appropriation I'm responsible for making sure that the public's money is managed in the proper way and that I'm a good steward of the public's money and it Congress says work on climate and health I cannot decide that this needs to be worked on grass of prevention and managed so what they did was they took the climate health program that was standalone and the out the program standalone along with a number of the programs and that one of them together and my program got merged with that and I was. Made the acting branch chief of the program and immediately my superiors had asked me to dismantle the team that I had built in climate change which is a highly unique team with unique set of expertise from climatology to geographic information systems and a team that I had built at its sole purpose was to work on this unique set of challenges and they wanted me to move those individuals into other teams in the Afghan program and I said well you can't do that because they're going to be supervising your supervisor people who are working on different lines and how are we going to get around that fact that you can't merge the personnel expenditure of their time between different programs and there was a command of one of my managers above me refused to answer that question but she had her name is Laura Johnson she had 2 contractors from Pricewaterhouse Coopers we talk on highly unusual and on and I had never seen this before work with me on an organizational plan for this new branch and encourage me to accept this new organizational plan that would essentially blend the money and I kept telling the contractors you can't do that so I quit or says you can and I said well you can't I've taken a corporation's classes I have to and why is it more in this meeting where she couldn't come and this went on for several weeks and I refused to said this unless we could address this topic of the appropriations which I am responsible for so I could get in trouble if I allowed that to happen because I know that it's illegal and I said Lori needs to tell me what the workaround is for this mixing up the money because I don't see how we could happen and I'm not happy with this and as we went back and forth back and forth never with a response from Laurie about the appropriateness of this I was called into a meeting with the senior managers in the center and it was quite odd because you know got a call up to this the director's office one day and I sat down and one of the deputy director for the center Donica newts and said We have some troubling allegations against you. Like. What are you talking about she said did you author a book in 20. And I said well yeah I authored a textbook on climate change hell and she says we have no records in the ethics approval office because this was an act of it on my own and I got a horrible to do it and I had to I had to let you see that the talk was working up to what we have no evidence that actually perceive that it's a group or let it I have or my all let me go get it that no you need to have your own your badge and your keys and we're going to you need to leave campus now because I mean you're up to this is the listeners the kind of top down Inquisition that they impose on people of conscience and competence in state bureaucracies federal state local and corporate bureaucracy the larger point that Dr Lubert is making is that he refused to spend money contrary to what was authorized for his program by the u.s. Congress he refused to spend money because if you spend money in an authorized way that is a violation of the n.t. Deficiency Act which prescribe a felony as a punishment not to take an even bigger arc what Donald Trump was doing was doing his throughout referred to regulatory agencies moving money around for purposes that wasn't authorized such as moving money from the Defense Department for schools and other social services for the children of military families to build his so-called wall on the Mexican border that's a crime that's not just an impeachable offense it's a crime under the n.t. Deficiency well off any other web you were caught up with we're talking where Dr George the Liber who was the head of the climate Health Program at the Centers for Disease Control on the planet the other aspect of this is he is 18 in n. a Betting a tremendous threat to our national security which is kind. Disruption it's already blowing apart communities and you see it on our t.v. News and so it's not just that he's stopping you from trying to head it off in your particular way and stopping others from trying to minimize or mitigate these huge slow arms in tornadoes and droughts cetera short term and long term he's actually making it worse by unleashing coal burning pollution and scrapping controls Nandor on greenhouse gases go all yo gas go cold he calls coal clean beautiful coal so he's 18 in an Ev Betty a massive assault from an abuse nature against the health and safety and property values of our country and actually making it worse that should be an n.p. Jubal offense that Congress should pay attention to in a way where you know I mean you're sitting outside your workplace outside the Centers for Disease Control you've given a media interviews you're very good about communicating with the media are they trying to stop you from doing now have the suspended your pay you know fortunately they had certainly charges in October of last year and 18 and with the help of lawyers from an organization called Peer look of course from our responsibility we were able to have those charges completely removed they had accused me of all kinds of fabricating and just I mean so poorly done they are I'm also a professor at Emory and university and I teach a class there regularly on climate and health and they had accused me of having my subordinates teach classes for me and which I didn't and they said I was having them teach classes that I never even talked to they never bothered to check the class schedule to see if that course even existed and they said you know if you had me teach a class on the kind of a topic class that some. The else and numbers of just anonymous accusations of something that I was able to you know concretely show evidence of that wasn't even true it was just remarkably poorly done which on a.b.c. I think I'm grateful for the competence of the staff at the center they were not able to put together a credible set of charges maybe it was done in order to help me I'm hoping that an influx of the inside the decent solidarity in this country about trumped up charges is a yes it was and they removed all of them so they suspended you for 120 days to prevent you from speaking to the media they prevented me from speaking to the media going back before they remove me from my position this goes back right after the Al Gore debacle they cut off all my media active travel access and that drug on for about a year and plus and then after my obstinance with not doing their dirty work with the appropriations money that's when I was removed from campus and since then that was March 18th I have been moved to different assignments around c.d.c. In assignment that are unrelated to frankly things that I have expertise and and I've been bounced around to them on my 4th assignment and I'm still working and I'm prohibited from coming to the campus in which I'm assigned to I work from home a lot of percent of the time I still lighted and I review now the scientific manuscripts on laboratory analysis of environmental exposure something which I am profoundly unqualified to do so I'm part of the clearance chain for laboratory manuscripts listeners should know that one of the 1st things done I'm from did was order the banning of the use of the term climate change not only to Centers for Disease Control but at the Environment Protection Agency the other agencies and this is like right out of the Kremlin in Stalinist Russia and the 2nd thing I didn't like you appearing with Matt Damon in a show called Years of Living Dangerously. Well that was during the Obama years and actually we got a good bit of support for that I think there perhaps with the current crop of managers at the center don't like the attention this topic is getting and you know it is our our little unit was one of the most productive in the center and was also the one that they felt gave them the most vulnerability politically and so anything they could do to and they said to me you need to lay low take a low profile and I saw this as a tremendous opportunity to work to raise our profile and I would use to do so we were in discussions with the National Geographic Channel and Mars series which is a very successful show there for me to be a regular contributor to and I receive an e-mail think George will never be on that show capitals obit underlined and they did not want me to seek media attention and part of my job is to raise awareness on this issue it's critically important that we take every opportunity can to let the public know that this is a real and credible threat to you now in your communities and you should be worried before to know you're being represented pro bono by this wonderful nonprofit group in Washington and Eugene Oregon called peer which started out to protect the scientific integrity of Forster's a new u.s. Forest Service who oppose clear cutting on behalf of companies like wire hoser and were retaliated against So you're in good hands you have filed through them a whistleblower retaliation complaint with the Office of Special Counsel which is in the Justice Department seeking an investigation and defense of your rights what do you seeing in terms of your 18 colleagues are they distancing themselves are the silently supporting you how's the personal impact on you. Well the person Fact is tremendous but if you much worse without the folks at Pir especially Kevin Bell one of the most competent and dedicated lawyers that I've ever encountered and they work tirelessly on this issue and they they remind me of my staff who took this issue climate change to heart and made it their life's mission their life's work these people are driven to work on this topic because they want to contribute and of the 18 that several have left you know we're a group that has different skill sets project managers and cetera communicators and so on and so forth but the heart of the scientific knowledge base at that group is all gone I myself you know I didn't lead author for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change I've written the textbook on this issue I've been convening lead author for the 3rd and 4th u.s. National climate assessment on and on and what's left in the program unfortunately is not much expertise and that is really what's lost is the core knowledge base that we need in order to move this forward we're left with you know there's not much experience or credentials on this and yet I do keep in contact with some of them that tranquilly it is a culture of fear right now and many are so they have told me you George I support you I can provide evidence that would exonerate you on this charge and doubt it but I cannot do so because I dear that I will be retaliated against They have been told directly by the new person who took over from the Josephine that we like that if they speak to the press and which is a we have a 1st Amendment right to be able to do so want to own time and I've been advised of that by c.d.c. General counsel on numerous occasions that you will get in trouble if you speak to the press and if you do get contacted by the press you need to report it to me immediately that's the typical type of intimidation factors that go along with this and so we have a group of young smart and scared individuals Well George you know some listeners be wondering how can these 200 employees over you do such things to you what recourse do you have against them personally. What lawsuits can be filed against him personally all the way up to the White House level are they all immune I wish I had Kevin here to help me with that question because I really don't know the answer to that you know we're focused on c.d.c. Restoring the program as it was intended by Congress to do having it in hands of managers that are good stewards of the public's money in order to run this program to care about the topic there are cities that would love to have this program and see of course. Do you have a patron or 2 in Congress when there was whistleblower Ernie Prince your old in the Pentagon on the scene 5 a air cargo plane and he showed that the plane had a tendency to lose a wing now and then he was really pounced on in the Pentagon and he went to center Proxmire William Proxmire from Wisconsin who became one of his defenders and had hearings on the subject do you have any backers by name in the House and Senate and if not why not well we do actually just about a half an hour ago recorded a video for social media for Senator Bernie Sanders you of course know that his stance on this topic is very strong and they've been supported on the House side there been a number of Everest to support this Congress on the floor and Underwood from Michigan has proposed legislation to have the clinic program restored as an individual unit and Congresswoman Shalala as well as expressed tremendous support for this this issue and is working I believe with appropriations on what can be done about this I might add congresswoman to it was a former secretary of Health and Human Services in the Clinton administration in this year and for Congress after being president of a major university in Florida why don't you try Senator Edward Markey to back. Again yes I believe the legislative affairs folks at Pir and another whistleblower group called the Government Accountability Project are working with Marty as well. You others that are White House I believe Well listen listeners this is not just about Dr George mover Let me read you a passage in the joy Callaway award for civic courage about Dr Luba quote his unremitting position on behalf of scientific method integrity an expertise presently under attack as never before in history is an unwavering beacon for other federal government climate scientists suffering similar retaliate using his many splendored approach and communication skills through academic publications and in popular media Dr Lou have pledged he will quote not go away and quote tenaciously responding to intensifying climate chaos and quote I have a little point to make to any trunk voters who are listening to this program I know that you love Donald Trump in fact you you may be part of many trump gotos Hussein when you're asked the following people say Trump is crazy but what he's saying is what I'm thinking this that mean I'm crazy Well let me tell you we'll leave that judgment to yourself Trump voters but what Dr Lugar wants to make sure is that you don't get an infectious disease and infect others because you're under health and safety protection. That's what he's looking for and it doesn't matter whether you're Republican Democrat conservative liberal you better pay attention to smash crews who are break you know the Centers for Disease Control politicized you know favoring the big corporations who don't want certain things done in stifling people like George Lugar who relentlessly were determined to take their conscious to work so they can help save your lives or anticipate in prevent global pandemics and epidemics David in stede jump in here I'm confused about the hierarchy over the c.d.c. Who are you taking orders from in terms of their education what kind of degrees to these people have who are giving you these orders and these doctors are these Ph D.'s Yeah well the senator is a Ph D.'s industrial Hi Janice fudge the I believe the you know the real direction of whether you know the meeting should be cancelled was not this is a director that is frequently on travel unlike I think this is like the senator rector the center director spends a tremendous amount of time out of town and is remarkably absent for much of his tenure here and therefore the shop is run by folks without Ph D.'s He's a policy people and that's a trend that I've noticed at c.d.c. Over my 17 years and we've always you know Pressley fact that science directs policy right that they can see how that's changed now policy direct science in very prescriptive ways and so the policy people stepped in and had their wisdom about how to manage the trumpet ministration And and this is where we're at I think that a lot of these efforts are just done without care you know managing the public's money or being good stewards or being conscious that to our scientific integrity policy which should drive all of our efforts the folks that were trying to directly get me to move the money around don't have that agrees that I'm a. They're out there budget people and managers of non-science get to track sometimes management and a man's aside you know regardless I was maintain that we should you know play by the rules and do it the way we was intended and let the science lead the way you know I don't understand why doctors allow themselves to be ordered around by their inferiors and seems to happen in the house care debate is just abdicating the responsibility for that frankly to just be clear you said the person who told you the optics would be bad was not a trump political appointee just someone feeling the pressure either directly or indirectly that this would be bad idea to do with the new regime is that correct that's my understanding so he started during the Obama years and I don't have any knowledge this was could have been right around the time that the transition teams the Ted crew were something they call it where the people come to the agency immediately and I've heard from another source through a Union of Concerned Scientists anonymous survey that a senior manager at c.d.c. It said you know there were 5 key areas that the trumpet ministration wanted to be targeted during this administration it would be anything under the Affordable Care Act for control gun violence abortion rights and climate change and these are the topics that they're interested in now I don't know if this advance team had already made these wishes known to my leadership but you know was author media called in they going to cancel a meeting that we spent a good bit of time with already spent the money and a good bit of personal time to get this going it was a solid conference and in plus I said the optics are terrible I can't win the meeting and certainly of course the Washington Post ran a story critical of c.d.c. On canceling needing visit censorship and it was very odd that they would make that because their argument for lay low certainly didn't work this. Really honestly write a story about a client meeting with a.b.c. About climate change no one would write a national level media story about the climate meeting at c.d.c. But now they did write about it because it was canceled let me ask you this Would you return to your position with a change of administrations that wanted to reinstate your program absolutely I decided I got my Ph d. Right as 911 happened and sitting there watching those images I actually turned down an offer at Stanford and decided to pursue a life of public service I made it my goal to provide a service to this country and I felt obliged to do that that sitting there watching you know those towers come down and 2 weeks later I applied to c.d.c. And got a post-doc and have dedicated my life to doing that and I'm not giving up now and I don't these people come and go I mean I've I've watched you know Center Director come and go and c.d.c. Directors and my man just come and go but the people who do the science to do the work on the ground they stay and they're dedicated and we've gotten used to seeing these people come and go and you know and I've maintained my will I also teach them or I mention and they have that have wanted me to come over there and I said I'm in this fight and I am going to make sure this comes out well because if people like me walk away and who's left to care I was the pressure been on you professionally and personally. The incredible sense of isolation many of my colleagues at the government centrally goes to me now that counterbalanced by a tremendous amount of support from the folks of the Callaway award you have their foundation from news reporting and you know colleagues around the world I received a stack the other day around 20 postcards that was part of a letter writing campaign encouraging me to keep a bike light and that really helps keep me going but my colleagues at c.d.c. Are afraid and many of them have this. Appeared and I think you know I I tell myself that it's a measure of some things character in how they respond in moments like this and the folks who would slink away and ignore it well that's the measure of their character and for those who stand up and fight and support me well then you know I know a little bit more about we're talking with Dr Georgie Lubert who was formerly the head of the critically important climate health program as a and to do mean Olla just to Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta Georgia and a professor at John Emory University if you were in charge of climate disruption policy what would you do in terms of the federal government what kind of resources what priorities beyond your own program at the c.d.c. Well that's why you have to consider that was a question the Hillary campaign asked me 4 months before the election and they reached out to me again the Personally you know and all that and we spent some time coming up with a because we've got a you know $10000000.00 might sound like a lot of money but in a federal program it's really kind of a pilot program you mentioned you know the difference between the d.o.d. Budget and c.d.c. But it's too mean for c.d.c. Programs is quite small but what we have developed is a program that was directed right at the on the ground public health this is local city and state public health and to deliver to them all the tools and intelligence that they need in order to identify which starts to be relevant in their area because frankly the threats and climate change in Florida are going to dramatically different from those in May or June and a whole different set of issues wildfires versus mosquitoes etc So we had a tailor made program called the brace program building resilience against climate effects that would work with you know these high resolution type efforts at getting help to the most vulnerable in our state in our community and in our country and our plan with the what I described to Hillary campaign was that we would fail on this program and. It To all we currently work with 16 states and 2 cities we bring it to all 50 states and territories to travel governments and to large cities around the country and that we would also along with c.d.c. That we would need to bring money to and I fund regional centers of excellence the e.p.a. Would need some funding to help support environmental monitoring aspects of our program that is so critical that no one would be required to dedicate some resources to giving us the high resolution climate models that we would need to project with these risks are too detailed a you know intergovernmental program that had been in the works because I had spent time working with my colleagues around the government in order to kind of make those connections where is this information how can we get the resources that we need to attack this on a grand scale but we have done it in a way that would be scalable and so for the last 7 years had been you know testing the proof of concept and we're confident that we could scale it up the 1st thing in the world actually national level adaptation program for climate health so successful that the governments of England Public Health England the government of Austria Peru and Chile and Canada as well had adopted our framework as the gold standard for preparing public health for climate change and what would you have Congress do in terms of informing the public what kind of hearings you think they're not having the should have and in that context how do you expand the number of epidemiologists Well you have to train the have to be me Alison that was what the shame was is that you know I had trained a copy of young professionals who were highly skilled you know order to have the skill set and very very unique it's not like you just hire somebody you go to you know a job site you find some of these skills you have to train them you have to you know nurture them they've all disappear so we have to start all over again the women that we've lost you know I'm a bit naive it's the workings of Congress but the fact that our nation's the world's leading public health agency is stepping away from its principal sides of integrity is not just troubling for climate change. But if you think about it the the integrity that the the respect with a lot of the c.d.c. Is all that it has if the public can't trust this is the best science of aid like that and we always learn that c.d.c. That that what you do reflect upon the integrity of this agency and that's essentially all we have to protect it with your life and you know listeners should realize that with climatologists an epidemiologist making a connection between the burning no oil gas and coal and all kinds of diseases and property damage and affecting flora and fauna points the way to shifting our economy toward renewable energy like solar energy wind energy passive solar solar Volt there maybe even geothermal and in that sense reducing the greenhouse gases and reducing the causal effects of increasing climate disruption So you see that's the important so the kind of work that Dr Lugar and his colleagues are doing and to literally trying to destroy it is a crime against humanity when you try to destroy someone let's say who's trying to find a cure for malaria that be considered a crime against humanity so whenever you evaluate what we should expect the presidents the United States it's important to crank in these kinds of functions that are not going to be advanced by Exxon Mobil or Peabody Coal they're going to be advanced by public servants such as Dr George. Before we end any more commerce or questions from Steve been David duction the word this is a scientific question what do you think the biggest threat is as a result of this climate crisis Well you know that the program that the effects of climate change replace the compact. Dependent and that's kind of scientific way of saying gosh it all depends but the biggest threat in my opinion Ironically this is the biggest threat over all long term is the threat that increased carbon dioxide has on the acidity of the oceans and the impact that that c o 2 has on plants what we are learning is that c o 2 in elevated levels $67.00 were 415418 parts per 1001000000 right now but if we have a atmosphere concentration of around $600.00 parts per 1000000 which we expect by the latter part of the century what we're realizing is that plants are negatively affected by this elevated c o 2 especially c 3 c. 4 photosynthetic plants which form the kind of core of our food crop rice wheat barley sorghum millet all of the starches that we feed the planted on show that under elevated you know 2 levels that we would expect by the end of this that are part of the century that the protein levels are reduced by 15 to 20 percent of the crude protein the plants are actually stressed under these elevated to of 2 levels and they're rising so fast the plants cannot adapt the rate of change is so fast that the plants cannot adapt to this elevated c o 2 and they are stressed and as a result not only the group protein reduces by 15 to 20 percent the micronutrients vitamins are also reduced as well so we have a nutritional crisis imagine a planet of $7000000000.00 people now and crop production stays the same but we're at $9000000000.00 people and we have crops that are 15 to 20 percent less nutritious that is an impending nutritional crisis and everybody in public health knows that at the cornerstone of any healthy population is a healthy immune system and undernourished people don't have healthy immune systems there to expand that to the impact on the ocean and how the boomerang comes back on land so the old. I also experienced the stress of high c o 2 levels that actually absorb c o 2 and becomes more acidic what we've learned is that under high city conditions which are already occurring now that the organisms that form the basis of food webs of the oceans the Cal carries organise and these are the phytoplankton those old Franks and that form hard exoskeleton shells under those elevated acidity levels cannot form their shells that their shells are weak and dissolved and under higher c o 2 levels the potential for the collapse of the food base of the oceans is apparent and that we lose the food bank those small organisms that again you know feed the rest of the food we have we could have a crash and we can marine ecosystems which are tremendously important for Human Nutrition and that have much more intense hurricanes coming out of warming patterns that are changing the neocons can use a few words about that well we do know that most weather events extreme weather events are intensifying under climate change heat waves are longer duration and more intense hotter hurricanes appear to show a signal getting more intense We're not sure if they're getting more frequent precipitation is increasingly coming down in heavy short bursts rather than gentle rain all of those Think effect of the calc Now those things are things that we given the appropriate attention we can adapt to what I was describing earlier with the c o 2 problem is intractable this is a problem that we don't have solutions for and it was ironic about it is that they are a major problem that have nothing to do with whether or climate they have to do with the carbon pollution problem you know it's it's related to climate change is that the excess carbon changes weather but it also changes fundamental parts of our of our ecosystem that we rely on but one of the more fearful results of the melting of the glaciers and the building up of sea levels inundating cities with hundreds of millions of people around the globe from India to the United States explain that a bit well you know 80 percent of the population. It's near oceans so there's of the major retreat from the coastlines with sea levels depending on the climate model but we're learning how quickly that might happen but it's certainly happening and will happen those are the problems that you know again given the amount of resources and effort we can we can retreat from the oceans we're going to have to but there will be a tremendous amount of suffering associated with that and while we're waiting to retreat or waiting to come to terms with this problem we will certainly have you know closely days of Ethel killed many thousands of people and the time to act on that is now we learned from an earlier program Dr Luger that Miami Beach in Florida has a plan to evacuate not just people close to the ocean but the evacuated Miami Beach yes they're already experiencing regular inundation of vengeful i Pods I mean this is a regular occurrence right now and places that experience that since they get it they understand that they don't just lose their home they lose their community they lose their livelihood and those have consequences as well I'm sitting in at any moment they're telling me I'm getting notices from Southern California Edison that they're going to turn off the power fortunately they didn't do it during the show because their fear of the high winds will knock down power lines and start another wildfire so I can personally attest to the effects of what you're talking about and exactly what you're talking about is exactly what the trumpet ministration and his backers don't want anybody here and why you are in the situation that one of my colleagues and one of the top people in climate help Kirk our Smith out of u.c. Berkeley at once said this is a very important quote I guess that you know in a world of climate change that the rich will find the world to be more polluted more comfortable color lists and a bleaker world the poor will die as the poor pay more and are low. Income people well you know one last thing I hope we don't hear the word climate change anymore not because of Trump censorship but because it's too benign a phrase created by Frank Lutz the right wing Republican wordsmith in 2002 to replace of the more alarming global warming phrase so I hope we all use words like climate crisis climate disruption climate could pass for very global warming and deprive Frank Lutz of his semantic colonialism Well we're going to thank you very much Dr George Lugar regulations on your Joe a coate award for civic courage ratch relations to appear for holding up its defense of your rights as a civil servant and congratulations to all of you listening who are alert and come to the rescue of courageous people like Dr George Wilbur thank you so much we've been speaking with Dr George Looper we will link to more of his story and the Callaway wards out Ralph Nader Radio Hour dot com right now we're going to take a short break when we come back Ralph is going to answer some of your questions but 1st let's check in with our corporate crime reporter Ross I'm Ok ever You're listening to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour back after this the national press building in Washington d.c. This year called the climb upon a morning minutes the Friday November 28th 1000 almost all macabre Ferghana worker safety inspectors found serious workplace safety violations at a Dollar Tree in Portland Oregon after a rodent infestation that's according to report from television station k g w in Portland Oregon OSHA fine the company 9 $100.00 in August the Dollar Tree store in Portland voidness to temporarily shut down after a k g w investigation found through packaging chewed food labels rodent feces on shelves and a dead mouse in a nearby store since reopened employees complained to. Nausea of white headedness and headaches after being exposed to dead mice Rodin urine and droppings Oregon OSHA records indicate Dollar Tree didn't do enough to keep roads out of the store and failed to provide proper safety equipment for employees who were asked to clean up for the Corporate Crime Reporter on Russell kind of. Thank you Russell Now before we do listener questions Ralph John Conyers died recently and I know you've worked closely with him over the years he was in Congress a firm of 60 years I believe or more than 60 years tell us a little about your relationship by John Conyers and your relationship with Him Well Congressman Conyers who was the dean of the African-American vote a geisha in the houses they called and he helped start the Black Caucus he was extremely responsive you can get on the phone he would return cause that's a very rare trait today for members of his he can't get through to get in thing under way to begin. Critical any invite you down to his office group of civic advocates and leaders and obviously he was great on civil rights but you also tried to jumpstart a federal intense program on cracking down on corporate crime and never got anywhere but at least he introduced the legislation and you proposed that when he was a senior figure on the House Judiciary He was also a champion of ballot access for 3rd parties even know he was a longstanding member of the Democratic Party and he introduced legislation to that effect in clearly want to the most progressive members of the House of Representatives on numerous fronts including being anti-war in our modern times he left Congress a couple years ago under a cloud of personal matters but that doesn't really take away from what he did over a half a century representing portions of Detroit Michigan in the House of Representatives and taking seriously his ties us represent not just representative from Detroit. Thank you for that Ralph let's do some listener questions now this next one comes from Jay Goldberg who is a regular listener I think we did one of his questions a couple weeks ago and he said in the wrap up to this week's show Ralph offered a couple of reasons why Medicare for some is a bad idea but I think you overlooked the most obvious why people would have to buy into it so instead of being funded through progressive taxation it would be an option only for those who can afford it or whose employers provide it as private insurance as now I suppose there could be a government subsidy for low income groups similar to what Obamacare provides but they would never be as progressive as the taxes Bernie and Liz are proposing and would never be provided to the majority of working people also Medicare for some would have to call for deductibles and co-pays or no one would opt for private insurance is a j correct there rough Yeah he makes a good point and he provokes even further good points number one it's a set up to be taken over the way Medicare Advantage corporate run is now taken over one out of every 3 elderly people's Medicare insurance people don't realize is all these ads e hear about Medicare Advantage is just a euphemism for takeover by companies like United Health Care of Medicare under contract and as Dr Fred Hyde said it's not what you pay it's what you get in are a lot of trap doors and Medicare Advantage and people should be aware of it and so should people be if there is a Medicare for some or public option the other thing is Medicare for some does not control costs when you have full Medicare for all the corollary is restraint on skyrocketing drug prices restraint on skyrocketing hospital prices minimizing fraud in the health care area that's the experience in. It's funny I had this discussion after we did that show with college classmate of mine who I happen to run into and one of my college classmates is Tom Styer who's running for president and this just a woman who I also know said hey you're supporting Tommy So why like a lot of what Tom says about corporate power and obviously he's been a leader on the climate crisis but I'm not sure about his health care policy she says but he's talking about choice and so I ran down basically what we talked about last week and she kept a smile on her face but her eyes just went completely dead. It's amazing people make up their minds permanently close off the kind of information that I think otherwise it would be more receptive thank you for your questions keep them coming on the Ralph Nader radio our website I want to thank our guest again George Lugar from the c.d.c. Listening on the radio that. We call the rap transcript of the show will appear on the Ralph Nader radio our website soon after the episode is posted subscribe to us on or around. Channel and for Rouse weekly column it's free to Nader dot org for more. Corporate Crime Reporter dot com and got 2 new books out the fable how the rest of the Congress to acquire a copy of that go to rats reform Congress dot org And to the wrath parts how Bush and Obama paved the way for the Trump presidency and why it isn't too late to reverse course we have a link to that also the producers of the Ralph Nader Radio Hour are Jimmy Leeward and Matthew Marin our executive producer is Alan Minsky our theme music stand up rise up was written and performed by camp are proof is Elizabeth Solomon join us next week on the Ralph Nader Radio Hour when we speak. Another whistleblower who won his Callaway fries by taking on Boeing John Barnett thank you Ralph thank you buddy more stations more pod cast listeners spread the word listener. I left a note. In my own. Waiting. Were these. The. Words. Goodbye. He. I'm packing you. Broadcasting from high atop a monument to get a look. Amalgams this is Ken s.j. On the air at 89 point one f.m. Streaming live at k n a stray dog org And on the train in smartphone app and now a moment in San Diego's history the city of La Mesa is located just off the freeway 9 miles east of San Diego in Spanish no Mesa means the table or the Flatow Originally it was part of the Mission San Diego today a college track of land used by Spanish missionaries the base It was founded in $1816.00 and occupies just before 9 square miles the city's biggest annual event is October Fest which trolls hundreds of thousands of people annually till the mesa in October the sound of social justice. Welcome back to Talk of the town on honest Yesterday Attorney like Kerry and John Baker and the president's. She have it. It's still night.