Then what happened was about a 1000 years ago there was a debate at the very which are facts human history even today Islamic scholars begin to debate the question is there a God or is there something called natural law that supersedes God or was the relationship between God and natural law on one hand we have the great scientists of the Islamic world these the people who worked out mathematics algebra these the people who worked out trigonometry they were the ones who gave names to the stars in the heavens there were astronomers mathematicians engineers architects and they believed in studying natural law perhaps to be one way to glorify our However there were also the fundamentalists who said how we don't have to study natural law because God can change natural laws and he time he feels like so why bother to study something which is so complicated natural law when I can simply snap his fingers and change Natural Law Well this debate went on for centuries. But it mainly signify the decline of basic science in the Islamic world the great centers there's Amika learning gradually fell into the dust it became a forgotten footnote in history that one day long ago optics physics astronomy mathematics was pioneered by the as long ago world and that led to the decline which ultimately culminated in the decline of the Ottoman Empire so when World War One took place the Islamic world was known as the sick man of Asia and Europe people began to cut up the Ottoman Empire and what we have today is the rump of the Ottoman Empire being Turkey and so we see the fact that abandoning science had implications not just feel logical implications about the existence of God and Natural Law No It also had direct implications in terms of prosperity in terms of development science even warfare all of that depended upon being nourished by the seeds coming from science and science fell into decline as a consequence well not just take a look at the Western world 500 years ago the west was not much to look at it was a net importer of technology technology came from elsewhere like from China and from the Islamic world Europe was a net importer of technology and then we had the persecution of Galileo Galileo was asked Do you really believe in God because your writings seem to indicate that perhaps there is no God Well Galileo said something very important he said the purpose of science is to determine how the heavens go the purpose of religion is that a term and how to go to heaven so in other words the purpose of science is to figure out natural laws. And the purpose of religion is ethics how to go to heaven how to be a good person how to be an upstanding member of society the problem occurs you said when people in Natural Law begin to pontificate about ethics or when people in religion begin to pontificate about natural law that's when we get into trouble the church for example flirted with the idea of a flat earth or the fact that the earth was the center of the universe if that were true we would never have entered the space age we would never have been able to map the surface of the earth exploration the economy trade routes the cyber revolution and today the Internet would have all been impossible if we believe that the earth was flat or the earth but the center of the universe so that was going to Laos take that there was no fundamental conflict between religion and science science was about natural law and religion was about ethics Well now comes Isaac Newton and I think doing takes it a 1000000 steps farther by actually writing down using mathematics the laws of natural law and so all of a sudden we were thrust into the age of calculus thrust into the age of the 3 Laws of Isaac Newton but of course he was criticized because Newton had a new picture the new picture is that the universe is a clock I get a clock ticking away God said it into motion and it's been obeying the 3 Laws of Motion ever since well then came the killer question if the universe is a Clark then why do we need God is God simply a luxury that we don't need all we have is Newton's Laws of Motion. Newton was troubled by this because of course Newton was very religious back in those days you had to be religious or you could never get a position at a place like Cambridge University So Newton fudged of it and he said that well you see 1st of all God created the clock and every once in a while he has to tweak the Clark he has to intervene in his own laws of motion you see what happened was a clergyman wrote him a letter a very important letter that he quoted even today and that lead in says something very interesting that it is said that the universal law of gravity is attraction the earth is attracted to the Sun The Sun is attracted to the Galaxy everything is attracted by gravity but then this minister said if everything is a track at everything else then why doesn't the universe collapse well how that stumped Newton he was shaken he was speechless Yes it's true gravity is attractive not repulsive it's attractive so sooner or later all the stars in the Heavens would come together and collapse into a gigantic fireball and we wouldn't be here to talk about it. Isaac Newton was floored by this criticism he thought a lot about this and finally he wrote a letter a very famous letter to address this question. He said that the universe must be infinite and uniform because if it's infinite and uniform then all forces cancel out there's no preferred direction because the universe is uniform therefore the universe is static the universe is static because all the forces left right up down cancel each other exactly but Isaac Newton said there's a flaw even in his own argument and that is if you have for example a stack of cards and the slightest disturbance on the stack of cars will send the whole thing tumbling down so in other words the universe has to be precisely fine tune to be exactly uniform but that's impossible just look outside and you see that the stars are more or less randomly distributed on average evenly but they are randomly distributed so I thought I'm in trouble 1st the universe has to be infinite or also because lapse because gravity is attractive not repulsive. But 2nd of all it has to be fine tuned exactly so that all forces left right up down cancel exactly because the slightest probation the slightest effect will eventually over billions of years cause all the stars to tumble once again Newton was stumped the greatest scientific genius of all time didn't know what to say at that point he simply threw his aunts up in the air and said well sometimes God has to intervene he has to tweak the laws of motion so that the universe doesn't collapse into a gigantic fireball so I didn't believe that yes god exists yes God created the clock Yes the clock beats more or less without divine intervention but once in a while God has to intervene in the affairs of the universe or the universe will collapse Well Malcolm is Einstein who comes up with a new point of view concerning this paradox Einstein said yes gravity is attractive therefore you might think that the universe would collapse but he said perhaps there is an anti-gravity ational force called the cosmological constant and there's a balance between gravity and anti gravity well that's one way to do it but the other way to do it is more accepted today and that's called the Big Bang Theory. The Big Bang theory answers the question why isn't the universe collapsed because gravity is attractive even Einstein's equations admit 2 types of solutions expanding universe is and collapsing universes so if the universe expands as the in the Big Bang Theory pioneer in the 1920 s. If universe expands that solves the paradox Why doesn't the universe collapse because the universe is constantly expanding so that was Einstein's take on that question but then there is yet the bigger question and that is then what about God Well and Stein answered it this way Einstein said that well there really are 2 kinds of god and you have to distinguish between these 2 types of God 1st of all there is the personal God The God that you pray to the God that answers your prayers at Christmas and you get that shiny red bicycle the God that smites the Philistines and destroys your enemies the guy that performs miracles and walks on water Well Einstein couldn't get himself to believe in a personal God Einstein believed in a 2nd type of God and that is the God of spin I was in other words the God of beauty harmony order simplicity elegance the universe is so gorgeous it didn't have to be that way the universe could have been random it could have been ugly. You know here we have natural laws that you can write on a sheet of paper that's right you can write out Einstein's theory of gravity in one line and the quantum theory while the takes about 10 lines but together that one sheet of paper summarizes everything that is known about the universe today so one sign said that he's like a child entering a library this huge gigantic library full of different kinds of volumes the mysteries of natural law explain and all he could do all humanity could do is take the 1st volume open enough read chapter one page one and yet before him was all b.s. Volumes Well the god letter is up for sale and some people are saying well no that's not what Einstein believed at all Einstein said the concept of God is flawed so what how do you reconcile the 2 I personally think that the people who interpret the god letter in turn put it incorrectly when I'm staying right so the concept of God is a childish concept he meant the personal God The God that answers your prayers why should the God of the universe care what you get for Christmas yes more important things to do so Einstein believed in the guy Spinoza So in other words he was an agnostic he said so over and over so it was not as if he thought the concept of God was childish is that the concept of the personal God was childish but then the existence of God Himself Einstein left it open and Einstein more or less bordered on the idea that the laws of physics the laws of physics could be like a God Well then the next question is what about Stephen Hawking Stephen Hawking post you mislay has come out with a new book a new book that summarizes many of his previous writings. And in this book he says via humbug forget all these theological nonsense look at the science the science says there is no God and He gives a scientific proof of the not existence of God which I found very interesting. Hocking says the following the universe started with the big bang and the Big Bang in turn started from this tiny tiny little infinitely small thing that suddenly exploded giving us the universe today how long did it take for the universe to be created all fractions of a trillionth of a trillionth of a 2nd almost instantly the universe expanded into its present day farm that is the big bang theory coming from Einstein's own general theory of relativity so says Even Hawking quote There was no time there was no time to create the universe and the laws and everything we see around us the universe wrong instantly from this tiny singularity and therefore there was no time for any one person or God the God himself there was no time to create the universe and so he's basically saying he has a proof of the nonexistence of God but personally I think there's a flaw in that argument. A flaw that even Einstein himself realized you see this proof of the nonexistence of God that there was no time to create the universe is based on Einstein's theory of relativity which is flawed Einstein himself realize that the general theory of relativity is useless at the instant of the big bang and the center of a black hole at both places gravity becomes infinite and we want to vanish infinities from the laws of science infinity means nothing to my physicist and therefore Einstein himself realized that there was a defect in his own equations because they failed at the instant of the big bang and the center of a black hole so Weinstein believe that a higher theory a unified field theory a unified field theory where the quantum theory would emerge as a consequence of this higher theory now today we do have a candidate it's not proven but we have a candidate for the theory of everything that's called string theory string theory is what I do for a living that's my day job so I have a stake in this debate so what this string theory say about this well string theory is claim to fame is that it has no infinities at all. It is a totally finite theory therefore you can answer the question what happened before the Big Bang was there no time to create the universe Stephen Hawking has said well string theory gives you a different take on the whole question 1st of all Einstein's theory of gravity says that the universe is a bubble of some sort we live on the skin of the bubble and the bubble is expanding that's called the Big Bang Theory as seen on c.b.s. Television Well if the Big Bang theory is based on a bubble that's expanding string theory is based on other bubbles a multiverse of bubbles a bubble bath a bubble bath of universes universes constantly being created and destroyed why because the Big Bang was a quantum event and if it happened once there's a certain probability it will happen again and again and again that's the nature of the quantum theory meaning that big bangs are happening all the time even as we speak big bangs are taking place and so sometimes these bubbles can bump into each other creating a bigger bubble or these bubbles can peel off a baby bubble and that could be the big bang so in other words there was something before creation there was something beyond our universe and so that's the defect in Hawking's disprove the existence of God It's based on Einstein's own defective theory that Einstein himself realized was defective That's why I'm science spent the last 30 years of his life from 1025 to 1955 puzzling over this grand unified field theory. So then the question is well what's my point of view yes I have a point of view and for what it's worth let me tell you what my point of view is 1st of all when I was a child I realised that my parents were Buddhist in Buddhism there is no beginning there is no end there's only nerve Anna higher states of consciousness so there was no creation as we know it in Buddhist thinking however because my parents were locked up during World War 2 in a relocation camp they wanted the kids to understand American culture so they sent me to Sunday school where I joined the Presbyterian Church and I learned all about Genesis and all about the parables of the stories in the Bible and well when you read about Genesis you realize that hey maybe there was a big bang so the big bang theory according to the Catholic Church its latest thinking is the big bang is compatible compatible with Genesis that there was an event a beginning of time which seems to agree with the Big Bang theory in fact one of the creators of the Big Bang Theory was in fact a Catholic minister and so here we have a theory of the big bang that seems to be scientifically correct but you see if string theory is correct it means that big bangs are happening all the time and these bubbles are floating in a higher Rina this higher our Rina is hyperspace a higher dimension which you can think of as nerve Anno So in other words here is a new picture the multiverse the multiverse gives us a new picture of Buddhism and Christianity that yes our universe had a beginning. Our universe had a beginning but there are other universes out there each one of these universes has its own laws of physics and it expands all these universes are expanding into nerve Anna and what is nerve Hana their vanity is a dimension beyond our bubble if our bubble is 3 dimensional it means that our venomous be higher than 3 dimensional and string theory even gives you a prediction the universe must be a leavened dimensional and so think of this arena this large arena of 11 dimensional nirvana where bubbles form and these bubbles pop into existence now then the question is can you prove or disprove the existence of God Well I don't think you can either prove or disprove the existence of God So I think Hawkings disprove the existence of God It is a bit premature in fact it is impossible to disprove a negative for example let's say that unicorns don't exist. Well that's a reasonable assumption but can you prove it can you prove philosophically and theologically that unicorns cannot exist maybe maybe some plays on a deserted island some place far far from civilization there is a unique arm we find strange things happening all the time so you see the point is you cannot disprove a negative Personally I think that 100 years from now a 1000 years from now will still be debating the question about whether you can mathematically prove or disprove the existence of God Now it turns out that if you Google my name some people claim that I have claimed that you can prove the existence of God Well that's fake news sorry about that somebody wants to piggyback on my name I make no such statement in fact I say the opposite that you cannot prove or disprove the existence of God because science is based on things that are testable. Reproducible falsifiable that's called science but the existence of God I think cannot be proven it cannot be reproduced it cannot be falsifiable and therefore it is beyond the province of ordinary science so I would call that not this is a maybe maybe not that God exists you know when I was in college at one point I thought that well if I don't become a physicist maybe I can become a philosopher so I read the works of St Thomas Aquinas figure 8 theologians and he had 5 proves the existence of God 3 of which have been studied very carefully and are not redundant with the others because one logical the teleological and the ontological proof of the existence of God Well we can now look at these 3 proves from a scientific point of view the teleological prove the existence of God is God By Design For example if you're walking on the sands of Mars everything is worn down the sands of Mars have pretty much sand blasted everything inside and all of a sudden you see a camera of uniform camera on the surface of Mars with beautiful lenses and reflexes and you say to yourself Well the Martians the Martians must have built this camera and then you are further on the sands of Mars and then you see a rabbit. A rabbit with an eyeball infinit lean more delicate then the mechanisms and the lenses of the camera a rabbit whose reflexes required of biology far beyond anything that can be seen inside a camera and so if you assume that a camera has a maker then the rabbit must also have a maker even greater than the Martians in other words God So this is proof of God by design However today we have the laws of evolution where things evolve all by themselves without any divine intervention so out of chaos can come order because of survival of the fittest now the cosmological proof simply says 1st mover and that has some merit because the 1st mover would be the big bang of the Ontological improve his more delicate It says that God is perfect and if God didn't exist he wouldn't be perfect so he must exist so existence and perfection are identical a perfect being must exist because if he didn't exist he wouldn't be perfect well it was a mind your current who finally picked apart that argument and that his perfection and existence really are 2 separate concepts so just because you're perfect does not mean that you exist. Now the argument about 1st mover simply says that for something to move something has to kick it and for that object to move something has to kick it and so you have this infinite sequence of kickers each one causing the next object to be moved but then the question is Where is the 1st kick or the 1st mover that set everything into motion in other words they cannot be an infinite sequence of motions each one kicking the next it has to be a source and origin for all this and that is creation and therefore it is compatible with the Big Bang theory because in some sense the energy of the Big Bang is the energy that set everything into motion the stars the galaxies everything we see around us was set into motion because of the 1st mover and that was the big bang itself and so even the Catholic Church has stated that the Big Bang theory is compatible with Genesis Chapter one Verse one of the Bible. Well. Well that concludes the 1st part of exploration and continuing our discussion of religion and spirituality we're going to bring on John Branch there a physicist who has extensive knowledge about Einstein's life as well as a spiritual and religious life as well and so once again in the 2nd have exploration we're going to continue our discussion of God and religion and if you want to copy you today's program call the Pacifica program service at 180735023 was again for a copy of today's program call the Pacifica program service at 187350230 stay tune. 'd welcome once again this is Dr Michio Kaku professor of theoretical physics at the City College and the Graduate Center of the City University of New York and this is the 2nd half of that school aeration in the 1st half of exploration we discuss the question of god given the fact that God is in the news on one hand Stephen Hawking with his latest book comes out and says bah humbug there is no God because there wasn't enough time for God to create the universe at the instant of the big bang and then we have the Einstein Papers the god papers up for auction millions of dollars are going to be spent as people chase in the original handwriting Einstein's thoughts on the question of God But did the media overstate the case well we're going to talk today with John Brister a biographer of Einstein He's a physicist at Princeton University and he's had numerous contacts with Einstein himself as well as Vernon Romber on the father of the missile program so once again a special guest in the 2nd part of exploration is John Brister who will explore the spiritual and religious dimensions Einstein's thoughts the 1st question for you is how did you 1st get to know Albert Einstein. Well because I was a student at Princeton I graduated in physics and 1943 and he was in the community and I moved. Within a block or 2 from where he lived at 112 Mercer road and my family followed him quite frequently walking to the Institute for Advanced Study my prime counting contact were in symposia and meeting not so much on a personal level I've listened intently to everything he said. When he spoke but my interest and I and Stein was in his mind and that is ideas of spirituality. As opposed to physics Ok well sometimes Einstein when asked whether or not he had a philosophy of the universe and God would mention that he believed in the God of Spinoza Well what is that could you explain a little bit about some of his religious and philosophical beliefs that seem to coincide with those of Spinoza Well I'm not sure about I'm. Completely qualified to discuss but now it's all well Einstein didn't mention him on many occasions what Einstein. Answer to the many questions that he was asked about spirituality. Was basically specific it was very convinced of his position a church man would ask him questions write letters to him and he would answer those letters on the back of beyond both of them which the questions came. They were always directed to one thing and that he did not believe and then a personal God did not believe that. Prayer was affected that there could be any response. From prayer to a person of God but he believed in a trance dental natural force which he felt he could never fully understand. Mired nature mired the beauty of nature and he always used the word imperfectly with respect to the understanding of nature so an effect. I interpreted his religion to be what I had written at times about a natural religion. One in which the forces of nature. Were the forces of the universe and. Man be. Very new in the universe only a 1000000 years. Old. Would would never understand nature and tirelessly Ok well let's talk about a little bit about Isaac Newton and other physicists many physicists look at material forces objective material mechanical forces that govern our world as set forth 1st by Isaac Newton but Newton himself believed in God not necessarily such a personal God that answers prayers but a God that set things into motion now Einstein being a great physicist whose laws actually replace those of Isaac Newton Well where in those laws do we see the hand of God in my opinion. Being very interested in the human mind and how it works. Course we knew very little about neuroscience at the time of Einstein but in time we learn more and more about it and the development of the human brain. In the process of emergence from the animal brain it's clear that. Brain development area the prefrontal area of judgment reason and logic which didn't exist prior to that time and yet the Alamo in motion which human and heritage. Were very powerful and my view is and maybe I interpreted a little bit from. By you. That the period of development of human logic is not yet and that that is we may only be half way in to the period that is logic judgement and reason are still developing and man and perhaps a few more land. We will see religion quite differently Ok well let's talk about science and religion Einstein once said that science without religion is lame but religion without science is blind so he loves to talk about God He called God the old one the law giver but in some sense it was the god of harmony the God unity rather than the personal God that answers prayers and sparks the waters and intervenes in affairs of men and women so could you explain to us a little bit about what is a God of harmony the law giver as Einstein used to write well obviously he did mention God many times. Mention God informally in his conversations with his fellow scientists. Some of the theological people probably misinterpret that too to relate to a personal God but. I understand it as you do that his reference to God. As the God of Nature God. That followed all the laws of nature that man. Is tempting to learn and and survive by so that. Is his god was essentially the God that I try to define in this new book Now when Stein once wrote a beautiful passage concerning how he viewed knowledge science and the entire universe as in the following way he said that if you are a child entering a library full of millions and millions of volumes you are in awe of this vast storehouse of knowledge and yet you can only pick up the 1st volume and you can only be perhaps a few pages of the 1st volume and yet in front of you is as huge library of knowledge and in some sense you said the library is the universe the library is a storehouse of wondrous facts wondrous information wondrous equations and we are the child humanity all of science is nothing but a child entering this library Abel's only read the 1st volume and perhaps only a few pages of the 1st volume So what are your thoughts concerning how Einstein views this great library of knowledge Well I go back to what I said before that is from the very beginning the human mind has developed a bank of knowledge. One bit of knowledge is added to another and much of this has been written down. According to the interpretation of the writer. All right. Matched perfectly. Manatee in. Many. Millenia of existence has the function of the mind. Drawing conclusions about the position of man and about the. Nature of the universe and that all has been recorded and eventually been set out and drawn to the conclusion. Your mind for example I understand. Has concentrated a lot on the complexity of the universe. To be. The kind of man to string theory and that sort of thing. I'm way behind you I'm still with Gore and Heisenberg and. Fineman. Howley John Wheeler. Your modern scientists and you are apt to see. Things quite differently with basically the same mind that Einstein applied to his theoretical work Ok well would it be fair to say that in some sense there are 2 kinds of God that we have to be more careful about the word God that Einstein did not believe in the God of intervention the God that answers prayers to God it parts the waters the God that smites the Philistines not that kind of God but the God of harmony the God of unification and that God then set the universe into motion with that be a fair statement yes that would be a fair statement but you have to bear in mind that all those words you bring forth are human words. From the human mind. As the mind's interpretation of whether it acquires 5 senses. I often find that the interpretation of nature. Is. Quite impossible because. There is no language. In the human mind that that's a very recent age. That can apply to. Nature which has been. Sexually for ever we haven't developed. The language. To describe the God of Nature so Ok Now let's talk about where the universe came from in Genesis Genesis said God set the whole thing into motion now businesses have the Big Bang Theory and the Big Bang theory simply set itself into motion for reasons we don't understand but then people ask the embarrassing question well where did the Big Bang come from well maybe perhaps they were many bangs but then the other question is even if you have many sequence of big bangs in a multiverse of universes then where did the physics come from where did Einstein's equations come from in other words you go all the way back even further than the Big Bang to the laws of physics themselves and at that point Einstein would simply say well those are given to us by God Now this is not intelligent design this is not the intelligent design of certain people who dispute evolution and say that there's a hand of God creating evolution in one way creating humans as as as a watchmaker designs watches However we are left with this embarrassing question if there is a unified field theory the theory that Einstein tried to find that would allow him to quote read the mind of God then where did the unified field theory come from well I hear very right the question that certainly a difficult question I believe it goes back to the idea that I meant more and I had in the human mind has many going to take. It goes back to the very structure and function of the mind the. Brain is the. Biological mechanism. It's been related by 5 senses. The information that the wire. Goes through the hippocampus to what we call memory and that memory is the basis for all. Of your actions and I'm not so sure that the human brain. Is in a position yet to have sufficient understanding to. To explain. That we choose. The human mind. Is so limited. Still being. No more than you know. Perhaps in another 1000000 years or so. It may have these. Further maybe more and more are. More complex more understanding. My my well look. The man who created God was based on not only an Einstein idea of religion but how. How a formal religion would be created if Einstein were an aggressive. Leader Ok Now also when I sign was asked what is your goal in life he said that his goal in life was to quote read the mind of God that is have an equation perhaps no more than one inch long that would allow him to unify all the laws of physics that was his goal in life so in some sense if you were to ask then what is the God of Einstein the God of Einstein in some sense would be the unified field theory that is this one in she question from which everything springs the Big Bang the formation of galaxies the creation of the planet Earth all of these would be summarized into one equation and from what I read of Einstein's work gone it is either the unified field theory itself or the creator of the unified field theory you think that's a fair statement. I don't think it's a tireless statement I think the idea is a good one I don't think that Einstein really that there was and is a God and. That would allow humans. To define the universe and its function with the small. I felt that he was. More complicated than that you remember. That in his later years. He said more about people of the existing world. Had. He had great empathy. For people of the world and he moved some want a way from theoretical physics to his concern about people of the world and in a sense. The book that I wrote. Says that we will never really understand that some of the things that you question and it might be a good idea for. The existing cultures of the world to begin to decide on the unity of belief around nature rather than a personal God and get to the point where our beliefs are more. More unified and. A matter. Of a magazine has to structure. But I think gait. Is a deterrent to the natural. World. Logic and I thank you. That. We could eliminate. The imaginative side of. Human mind would progress. Much greater judgment capability people would agree. It would be much more universal he's calling. Constantly on it later on Ok And speaking about that when Einstein was a child when he was very young one year he became extremely religious he would cite religious texts and he would actually write him to God poems to God and he would sing religious songs on his way to school and back but then what happened was he read a science book and the more you read about science the more he realized that there was this vast discrepancy between what he learned reading these religious books and the books of science which were reproducible provable falsifiable not just matters of faith but matters of simply observation and experiment so he saw this this fundamental conflict there so do you think therefore that that is this fundamental conflict that every scientist feels that when we try to bridge the world of science and religion that at some point a scientist realizes that natural laws can explain the universe much better than miracles. You're absolutely right and I should tell you that I had a similar experience in my life I was born and brought up as a Catholic I served mass. At a theological seminary every morning at 5 30 in the morning until I reached similar age about the same age as Einstein did when he began to think differently the. The right and ceremonies. Did not match. Modern understanding has knowledge and I understand his. Experience in that regard because the my own experience. Ok Now if you were to then look at the current debate a lot of people are debating about God Today God The Bible intelligent design. How do you think Einstein we view it if he were alive today would he be horrified that that fundamentalist Christians are trying to inject etiology on biology classes and of course these fundamentalists also want to ban the Big Bang Theory and the Big Bang theory is nothing but a natural consequence of Einstein's theory and has been essentially verify looking at astronomical data so what do you think Einstein's reac would reaction would be looking at the current debate Einstein would be absolutely Harf I know that some of the discussions that are taking place today as specially in sound of the more emotional new developments in belief. Einstein was absolutely firm with and his belief he never had 2nd. With the respect to believe he would be appalled at how. At how reading. Has penetrated cultures. To today. Culture and religion so make stop with politics. That one gets the impression that the world will be in constant turmoil Einstein tried to see through all that. And Any parting thoughts you may want to make concerning Einstein's spiritual side and his thinking about religion and God I think. His. Feeling about religion and God is relatively cut and dried. He didn't. And a personal god. He didn't believe in prayer. Believe that. In the concept of the soul believe in heaven and hell. He didn't believe in immortality. And I think that summarizes the. Not. Well I think you've correctly summarized what Einstein did not believe in he didn't believe in the trappings of religion or in a personal God but he did believe in the God of Spinoza that is the God of harmony beauty simplicity the universe didn't have to be this way it could have been ugly on the law giver in other words where did the laws of physics come from even though the laws of physics allow us to explain much of what we see around us is still leaves open the question of well where did the laws of physics come from and on that question Einstein was silent he didn't know he does believe that it was just so gorgeous it was a miracle a miracle that the universe could exist in such as lenders way and so Einstein never put down people who were religious He said that the feeling of the mysterious is one of the most precious when one of one of the greatest emotions that we can possibly experience not the emotion of learning about physical law but the appreciation of the mysterious that is the boundary between what is known and what is not and this is what fascinated Einstein why did the universe have to be so ordered Why did the universe have to be so gorgeous to admit planets and stars and even people and that point he was silent other than to say that well maybe this is the god Spinoza not the God that you pray to not the God that smites the Philistines but another kind of God the law giver I kind of God that makes this gorgeous universe possible I think that's the way Einstein would like to have been remembered. Well I'm afraid that's it for our exploration once again this is Dr Michio Kaku professor of theoretical physics at City College and the Graduate Center of the City University of New York and our special guest today was John BRINSDEN are talking about God Spirituality Einstein What does physics say anything about this great universe of ours according to Newton Galileo Einstein and now Stephen Hawking So once again if you want to convience today's program called the Pacifica program service at 180-735-0230 That's 187-350-2304 extension 8 copy of today's program today. A shows. They're trying to fool us they think we are a bunch of sheep it is enough let them leave us alone we need a new life. 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