Centric approach people like Marjorie Knappenberger. Trying they're only beginning to enjoy a worse different strategy and that is to try to foreground the experiences that were contemplating having an abortion they believe just they can get to those women and offer to service or persuade them that a fortune wasn't in their best interest that would actually be more successful a conversation about the women whom historically have opposed abortions our producer all of San talks about it all with Crystal hugging Burke She's the author of the book Women Against Abortion inside the largest mall reform movement of the 20th century but 1st as tensions over North Korea and the fears of a nuclear war rise we'll talk about the prospects for peace with longtime Korean American actress Christine on she has led with the marches across the demilitarized zone and she was temporarily banned by South Korean government from entering the country but that ban has been lifted and Christine will join us to talk about all this next on that or something. But 1st the news for Pacifica Radio I'm Eileen elf in Derry South Africa's parliament has voted down a motion of no confidence and President Jacob Zuma it would have resulted in his removal the vote came after months of growing anger over alleged corruption and a sinking economy 177 members of parliament voted in favor of the no confidence motion 198 voted against it 9 abstained 90 m. Take it was Chief Whip for the African National Congress and a supporter of Zuma he condemned the opposition move to remove Zuma and cited the president's history in the liberation struggle against white apart Tade rule this is not to opt out of the government and the incident is no to understand the. Time and this is that we have more to. Out. Me tuck it is that's a commission of Congress 8 men off the people desk and there are some quotas is the oldest the body shouldn't have been that still stands and in see we did not do that touched by the abstracts this time. And some each in most organizations like yourself Zuma had survived 6 previous attempts to unseat him in parliament but this was the 1st to be held by secret ballot opposition parties had hoped it would encourage just scrunch old law makers with the ruling African National Congress to vote against him. Mine I'm a heads the opposition Democratic Alliance he said the no confidence vote targeted Zuma and not the African National Congress what is true is that speak up to speak I came here today and married to Jacob Zuma presidency could zoom up and then see as if the 2 I'm super bored I would hate to believe that that must be so I am not here to call for to team change I am here to call on for the removal of a president who has violated the Constitution of the public. Seumas term continues until elections and 2019 the a.n.c. Is expected to replace him as party leader at its meeting in December Kenyans stood in long lines to vote in the nation's presidential election voters started lining up before dawn in the tightly contested race if it's incumbent who are Kenyatta against challenger Raila Odinga John Muhammad heads a 15 member observer mission which includes journalists and former diplomats from Commonwealth member countries he called the turnout impressive I mean price by the time outs of the I'm down long queue CIA shows the enthusiasm that people have to exercise their democratic right. There's been no use of them so far but it's and seems to be going smoothly and I think it's a good visit. It's time for a career in democracy a key concern is whether Kenya Acco its 2013 election a mostly peaceful affair despite opposition allegations of vote tampering or the 2007 election which led to violence field by ethnic divisions that killed more than $1000.00 people Attorney General Jeff Sessions fired back at Chicago hours after the city filed suit over the Justice Department plan to withhold public safety grants from sanctuary cities and it's awfully worded statement Sessions said the trumpet ministration will not simply give away grant dollars to city governments that proudly violate the rule of law and protect criminal aliens at the expense of public safety session said Chicago stood out in its open hostility to enforcing immigration laws the statement added So it's this simple comply with the law or forgo taxpayer dollars Chicago filed suit in federal court Mayor Rahm Emanuel told c.n.n. The city won't be blackmailed into changing its values as a city welcoming of immigrants the federal government cannot course a city to change its policy that's what the court has already ruled on the 2nd piece that is we don't run a chair when you walk up to a 48 hours it's not a case as they let you go you cannot ask us to hold people who are going to 48 hours Chicago has received the grant funds at the heart of us lawsuits since 2005 it has spent $33000000.00 in grants to buy nearly $1000.00 police cars and that 12 year period Google reportedly has fired a male engineer who internally circulated a memo blaming biological differences for the small numbers of female programmers the memo criticized Google for pushing mentoring and diversity programs and for a quote alienating conservatives Bloomberg said engineer James De Moore was fired it cited an e-mail from him Google's c.e.o. Denounced the memo in an e-mail for advancing harmful gender stereotypes and said. Cutting short a vacation to hold a town hall with Google staff on Thursday I might lead elf and Jerry letters and politics is next good day and welcome to letters and politics I'm it shows or it's North Korea today said that it will mobilize all of its resources take physical action in retaliation to new sanctions unanimously approved by the United Nations Security Council over this past weekend the new sanctions on top of previous sanctions imposed by the United States just last month could cost North Korea more than a $1000000000.00 which is a significant amount of money considering we're talking about a country that has already become economically isolated the sanctions came after North Korea successfully tested 2 intercontinental ballistic missiles that could reach great distances including North America and news reports suggest that it could be just months away from being able to equip these missiles with nuclear warheads on Twitter Donald Trump this morning responded back saying quote After many years of failure countries are coming together to finally address the dangers posed by North Korea we must be tough and decisive and it was from Donald Trump's tweet earlier this morning so the situation concerning North Korea South Korea America the international community the prospects of a nuclear war must seem dire and many people may feel nervous but there's another side to this in fact there's another side that could touch points to prospects of peace and that's what we are going to talk about today especially in this very important moment and joining me on the telephone is Christine on Christine on's international court nater of women crossed d.m.z. a Global movement of women mobilizing for peace on the Korean Peninsula she's helped organize women marches across the did militarized border zone between North and South Korea kluge women from both countries as well as women from around the world she was temporarily tonight entry to South Korea last month after the previous Government her 8 national security risk and a North Korean supporter. However the new government has lifted that ban and Christine on not only is it my very good pleasure to welcome you back to this radio program let me also say I miss the times when you live locally here in the Bay Area and we'd meet very early in the morning for these type of interviews. That I know I did you know let's talk a little bit about your situation before we get into the sort of the larger story of what's happening right now with North Korea South Korea America international community all of that but my understanding is again last month you were trying to fly from San Francisco International Airport into and a soul and. Part of me and what happened is that they stopped you and you didn't realize you were banned from entering. South Korea and this was a van that was instituted by Park when he the former president who's who's recently impeached yet it was it was this she. Said her Carol President. Was a little surprised and not. I would actually only want to Shanghai and the plane was transiting at 0 in turn and so for that I just because I was denied entry at that they wouldn't allow me to board the plane even if it was ultimately had it shipped torching high. It yeah was really surprising I went to check in I gave them my passport the ticket agent had a puzzled look on her face she called the supervisor they had a quick conversation they asked me to go sit down and the supervisor came to tell me that. She was sorry but I was not able to board the plane and I had been denied entry I think this was the end of days and so it must've been instituted under the last administration and she said. I'm really sorry but I thought with a government official and you are not allowed to board because plane so there was that part of me that was surprised as I noted but not because and there have been also many revelations that have merged including that proc and paying. Minister of Culture had generated a blacklist of about 10000 are added to writers filmmakers you know that day because they are to be pro-choice and really part of that 10000 I was dead but it's clearly the same kind of practice intended to silence and censor those that oppose the government policy then you know when I had crossed from North to South Korea into. You know I had to cross the checkpoint and it was that tourist station which is the train station that was intended to link North and South Korea during the sunshine years hence I always see years and you know it still has not yet to be connected and that was the point where we were actually entering into South Korea and when I was at that customs border I was given a letter by the president of the administration at the time it said you know if you were to do anything political. That you would need to. Well it would say oh you know it was not the welcome that I was expecting is that South Korea but you know in reflection and in speaking with and I when I was able to get to South Korea and I did meet with the South Korean women's groups and with some journalists there was one journalist who reflected back to me even what we know now about that is ministration and some of the really draconian and practive policies and corrupt policy it's quite extraordinary that we even got their permission to cross the d.m.z. So anyway the good news is that was the the the generator there of the past the dark ages and now with the new president William j. And and a more progressive agenda of our pro peace grown gauge when agenda they quickly reversed that they had and completely I was like yeah lately I mean not not completely in the sense that there are other activities that have not had the ban lifted and so you know that in some way is a reflection of the true faces of wounds of the new president and but you know if it is a good it's I think the. Landmark case that can hopefully see you shine a light on. That and how when the proper term and I mean clearly there was you know I had no idea that I would be going on a travel ban and so I was actually checking and so that's really problematic I think for pro pro-democracy pro-gun rights activists that aren't aware until they're checking in there like you're activists in your born in South Korea I mean Corning Well yes you know and so and again just to be very clear your activism here is is. Again organized I'm sure this big spans beyond this but expression in the last few years is the March on the right for me said exactly retribution for that. I did want to talk to you about the prospects of for peace actually right now because everything seems so dire in fact I was looking this morning at the cover of The Economist magazine the latest edition and on the cover it has a big mushroom cloud and within the cloud you see the face of. The North Korean leader in the American leader of Donald Trump and it says in big bold letters it could have been and so a lot of people are freaked out right now but you have an article written on. The truth about truth I think that is actually very informative about this prospect of peace right now. Well yes and then to be honest with you there are days when I even question my home we're not really talking the right well I mean a lot and stuff the sense that that article was written I mean that's like 2 weeks ago and and but it's true I mean we have to look at the big picture here which is there really isn't a military option and even though we care a lot of bluster coming from Washington d.c. And even though the trumpet ministration it's all over the map I mean there was a brilliant tweet from him sure aka journalist with The Nation and which he you know pulled like the you know tweet side by Mike Pence to Tiller's than to Lindsey Graham I mean it's just I mean I know Graham is not within the administration but the Republican Party it's just they're all over the place and you know hopefully Tillerson is the one that. That's really reflecting the continent's racial policy because he's the only one talking sense and all of this you know I think everybody from the military generals you know to some of the top Korea experts all recognize that a military option is not possible it would just be devastating and even the secretary of defense not it has said you know the consequences would be just unimaginable and. Parse the past what the devastation that was already raked a 19 you know from 150 to 53 under the Creedmore perform 1000000 people were killed in that war and so even though we are hearing this kind of bombast found the White House I think they even recognize that a military strike some kind of military action is not libel So again they just have to penetrations. I have come to realize that the only way forward is some kind of diplomatic solution and the next Tillerson did today we would like to sit down and talk we don't want regime change and so hopefully that is the policy that stands although he has a huge opportunity in the Ozzie and regional forum this past weekend to even shake the hand or even say hello to the North Korean foreign minister and so that. I did not do that we did not do that but the north and the South Korean foreign ministers come to a conference out there the 1st foreign minister did have a side chat with her North Korean counterpart so that is hopeful and I think you know got the the takeaway message that I put in both the truth out piece and also in the near Times op ed is the bright light here in South Korea and you know when you take Tillerson point about we need to have talks we want to sit down with the messages coming from the South Korean new president that is for me where we need to take our focus and. You know we can't that military option isn't on the table so what what what do we need to do especially among the left the progressive and those of us that believe that peace can be achieved when need to keep putting these messages out there in the media there was a really disturbing. Chicago Council survey that just came out today to go and it sent that. North Korea has emerged at the top foreign policy Fred and danger facing America and that and to show number of Americans that were polled I think there was a sample of the truth out and that they would support a u.s. Deployment to the Korean Peninsula and so I kind of tweeted back to The Washington Post reporter and I 50 old because she tweeted it and I and I said. You know I don't even think the Americans that were polled know that 30000 u.s. Troops are already off the creek and so on and have been there since 1945 at the end the World War 2 And so that's part of the problem is there's a deep ignorance and you know the Korean War is called the forgotten war and obviously for not for the 1st 3rd reason and you know I think it needs Americans actually when you take a long history and knew the kind of devastation of that the West wreaked on the Korean peninsula and was just possible for the division of the Korean Peninsula that me would have been kind of ethical and moral responsibility to try to end the war and so that's the kind of that's it's that I put in the truth of peace that the good news here and all of this is that China or Korea and South Korea have all called for peace treaty when Jane is the 1st South Korean president to call for a peace treaty and I think that is significant even though can be a job and no McCance had succeeded in getting interest free and reconciliation the fact that when Jane in having been the chief of staff of the last progressive president now we can has recognized that in her career and reconciliation can only go so far. Because it will face it political economic military constraints because of the unresolved Creedmore and and the fact that it's the u.s. Is still in a state of war with North Korea that was the clearly and it is the as it's being played out right now when James has called for. Direct talks he called for military to military engagement family reunion. You know joint North and South Korean. You know delegation to the South Korean winter Olympics and you know he has not even gotten a response because on the other hand he has to balance this longstanding kind of clients with stick relationship with the United States which includes these military exercises which include Now the sanctions against North Korea so you know he is ideal prey to him I feel that you know in his heart and his deep political beliefs that core he believes and reconciliation is his mother not learned his mother was born in North Korea in North Korea absolutely So he's in his and still there's a chance that yes and so I think that that is. One of the many in the current little prick president of South Korea Right exactly and the fact that he understands that his family perspective. I think it says a lot and so I think I believe that he will but it's going to have to take all of us to create the political conditions put in 60 and you write about as he put out what's called a Blue House report which you say is equivalent to a White House paper in which he outlined some 100 tasks that he wanted to accomplish and his 5 year term and one of those tasks is and you know when you put out these papers you put out what your goals are doesn't mean you're going to meet them but he did put out one of those task being that signing a peace treaty by 2020. I have no I think you took a sound bite for me health care to think it was over you're saying to his. Well that's what we I mean we started saying that in 2015 you know I think we have a rare situation. Where you know in some ways and I'm going to be attacked from the progresses but you know in some ways when you have a Republican presidency that I mean if you look at the history whether it was. Richard Nixon and you know breaking through the impasse with China and learn the lies in relation to it or borrow Reagan during the Cold War with the Soviet Union I mean and some ways that it's been Republicans that have political cover because it's perceived to be even militarist that the you know really conservative patriotic party which is going you know we have kind of a room but that's right it has you know it has definitely the kind of political cover to do that and so in some ways I do think that you know the difference between the Obama administration and the trumpet ministration is although the trumpet ministrations seems to be perpetuating the Obama's strategic patience policy which is backed them up. Military aggression and more sanctions to for their rights like North Korea the difference is they have distinctly said we don't want regime change and and I think that's a significant that is and that is I think you know the Obama administration wanted to achieve a nuclearization and regime change and I think that's the difference is the trumpet ministration they you know the Republicans are just like Agent and us policy than about how do you know that regime change it is it is I mean whether it's and and now the question is if it will resurrect me acted. And that has yet to be seen and you know there was a great interview on The Real News Network just yesterday with this guy Colonel Lawrence will be thin and he's like the chief of staff under Colin Powell and you know he he just talks the real them and I'm hoping that there is a growing body of the public kids that could talk some sense that this is ministration and and it seems that you know from his point of view that killer thing is the one that is making the decision to listen is the one that is shaping the trunk and the chase that's quality and so I hope that you know there are some back channel negotiations taking place. And that you know there could be and so the most viable proposal on the table that seems to be getting some traction is the one that is consider the China proposal all the North Korea's the one that 1st introduced it in 2015 which was to suspend North Korea's nuclear and missile tests in exchange for the halting of u.s. And South Korean military exercises Unfortunately the trumpet ministration has flatly rejected it at this stage but it seems to be doing the conditions get in the way Christine on of actually talking it is there is there any benefit of just sitting down and do innit. Regardless of additions what I have done you know Course I absolutely agree with you but as I just noted I mean rock pushed in with an event greet the North Korean minister at the end forum and so. I think that you know obviously that would be the ideal scenario but because there has been such entity and its trust over specially the last 20 years of these kind of failed agreements and you know and the truth being that both sides cheated on the agreements and I think that has created such. A basis of no dialogue that even you know I think the realistic and realistic. Pressure point is to say that we will do these things to start the dialogue and to I mean of course Mansoor absolutely right but when Rick Hillier soon said that really the only condition towards sitting down and talking with the North right now would be for going to create a stop testing these missiles is that realistic. Right and so and so that's the u.s. Is negotiating points and the North Korean and negotiating point to as was stated by the North Korean foreign minister at the end meeting was we are not willing to put our you notes and missiles on the bargaining table without a commitment from the u.s. Towards non towards basically not attacking us and that's where the u.s. Needs to demonstrate its commitment towards that and how could it not is it just these exercises or is there something else that they could do and that's to say that the you know that's why I mean it's I'm not trying to say this is a tip for tat but if you look at it from the North Koreans point of view which is we don't want to be attacked we don't to be attacked like Libya or Iraq and certainly based on our own historical experience of the Korean War And so that's why we're pursuing this. Policy of achieving nuclear weapons and our missile long range missile capability to put a nuclear warhead that can strike the I think that their defense against a potential 1st strike the difference is that the u.s. Has since the Bush administration the George w. Bush a preemptive doctrine where the u.s. Has the right to do that. And the North Koreans in their constitution I stated that they do not they they are not doing 1st strike so that is the difference between a North Korean and u.s. Policy but that of course gets nowhere in the mainstream media and instead o.b. Here is the bluster and fear about and North Korean attack on the u.s. When that won't happen and it would only happen if the u.s. Were to conduct a 1st strike on North Korea and China are you going to you know it would be suicide for that there should be there was that were done or a final minute. And I just it's interesting to note while we've been talking you know I get e-mails from from publishers and publicists all the time who want to come on and speak and I got this one press release that says fear of North Korea at all time high and these people are offering psychologist to talk to. I mean this is no one turning that joke like a ship in the drum to war and the reality is North Koreans don't want war they want peace and they don't want to have the kind of economic sanctions that the u.s. May u.n. Security Council just passed that impact and they're they're ready to grow their economy and have normal lives. And even though I think that we have a moment with a president and 8 out of 10 so brands that want to enter Korea reconciliation dialogue to try a different approach and hopefully record killers that will. Do that Christine on has been our guest again she's the International Court need her women cross d.m.z. Christine on Will there be another March another March and we're going to try for it but you know Mitch that the u.s. Just instituted a travel ban of Americans going to North Korea so that that includes d.m.z. Were. Well I mean it would be here if we would she were able to North Korea we would be going into North Korea and so we have to say we may need to call for American women that would be willing to engage ethical to the media. What are you looking to do this when would you like to do this we want to get it they May 24th the International Women's Day for peaceful disarmament. People should contact me if they're like looking for it court that's in full effect 3 more time Barrow at women crime they have they've got or they could just go to the Web site that women cross if they've got or go to contact Christine and I thank you greatly thanks for that stock you did last night and again Christine on is the international court neither of women's women cross d.m.z. You just do a search on line women cross t.m.c. You'll find all that info that she is talking about you're listening to letters and politics I mean shows are actually come back from this quick musical break our producer find her final week you're with us all of sands will be speaking to christen hugger Berg who is the author of the book Women Against Abortion inside the largest moral reform movement of the 20th century Stay tuned for that. Today's access to abortion for women in the u.s. Has been shaped by a long fight between pro-life and pro-choice activists. When depicting the pro-life movement and its of governments the most common story is the one of the legal fight for the right offices and are taken by the nation all right to Life Committee jury and after the Roe v Wade decision by the Supreme Court in 1973 this narrative tends to oversimplify the history of the pro-life movement to discover the lesser known face that of this movement women mobilizing against abortion through grassroots movements we are joined by Carrie sat. Carrousel How is Nasa's term professor of history at Tulane University and the author of the book we men against abortion inside the largest moral wherefrom movement of the 20th century welcome to your care is there thank you I'm delighted to be on the show and this story is really a story about at if you call women women who have not common thoughts about what's to be a pro-life activist. I would like us to talk principally about Marjorie Mecklenburg and Dr Miller Freda Jefferson who are 2 very complex women in their way to think so could you present a smarter we Mecklenburg Who was she. Margery and it was a very interesting person she rose very early in the National Right to Life Committee. Was for a moment and just explained that the National Right to Life Committee was the 1st nation why an anti-abortion organization and it was founded primarily by men Catholic men and clued in the National Council of Bishops many priests a handful of attorneys and positions again almost all men. And they were very aware of how. This looked to have a group of men seeking to curb women's rights so they were very eager to find and to promote women and people of color to provide a different visual for this movement. Marjorie Mecklenburg had become active in the anti-abortion movement in her home state of Minnesota and the late 1960 s. Her husband was a physician and again this is a common pattern in the 1960 s. That a handful of physicians got involved in the movement usually they were they had nothing to do with abortion services they were rarely Obstetricians and Gynecologists her husband got involved and she came along with him and they were really successful and I said the organized tens of thousands of people into a statewide anti-abortion chapter and this caught the attention of National Right to Life Committee members so they were eager to promote this woman who is not Catholic she was an accident just and so she rose very quickly and became one of the 1st leaders of the National Right to Life Committee her tenure did not last long she very quickly became interested in what we now call crisis pregnancy centers. I have to stop you here that we are going to talk about the centers. I would like to know 1st. Magill remake Limburg has a very interesting character that you know personally that you're talking about in fact also because she went for the birth control pill if that's right you wrote that she was engaged for women's right for the birth control pill and that her husband the physician you were talking about wasn't planned parenthood. So indeed she did clash with many members of the clergy who constituted their leadership of the National Right to Life Committee that is not unrelated to her tenure being so short so yes she didn't support birth control she believed that if birth control were more accessible the demand for or she would decline and I want to public health research just for this out is true. But over the course of her career she did move farther to the right during the 1980 s. Reagan appointed her to Health and Human Services Department where she was the 1st leader of an adolescent health program that significantly cut funding for comprehensive sex education so by the end of her career should move pretty far to the right and was. Her career describing birth control as something that could be harmful to women's house which is medically inaccurate so as you said. She had a very short time in the National Right to Life Committee. So she had these short time because she was a bit frustrated with the stance of the nation Right to Life Committee about the rights of finances and not being that much concerned by women's rights so could you talk about that please yes so early in the national rate to late committees 10 year . The legal strategy and the legislative strategy work to try to to enshrine the rights of fetuses and soon the National Right to Life Committee. And how their power all pro like groups pursued this strategy and tell the late 1980 s. And early 1990 s. And what's interesting is that it's during this precise move time during the late sixty's and early seventy's as the National Right to Life Committee is advancing a fetus centric approach people like Marjorie in that Lindbergh and other women primarily begin to endorse a different strategy and that is to try to foreground the experiences of women who are contemplating having an abortion they believe if they can get to those women and offer them services and is or persuade them that abortion wasn't in their best interest that would actually be more successful but again that was a minority position throughout much of the 1970 s. . So you explained that she left the National Right to Life Committee and then that she loathed the crisis pregnancy centers in the u.s. So what are these. What I think sent us from a pregnancy crisis. First crisis pregnancy center opened in Toronto in 1968 and Marjorie Mecklenburg caught wind of this and thought it was really smart to offer women services. This is now in 2017 the most popular form of anti-abortion activists So these are. They look like clinics they look like health care clinics they often open across the street or nearby legitimate women's health clinics. And anyone who's listening to this program has probably driven by a billboard that says Are you in crisis are you do you think you might be pregnant do you need help call this number that it's likely a number to a crisis pregnancy center and he said. As women can receive usually free. Pregnancy tests and in the 1980 s. They were commonly shown very gory. Films that purported to depict abortions and the idea was to scare them away from having an abortion. Women were and are commonly given pamphlets with medically inaccurate information that explain that abortions well will cause cancer or depression. And so again Marjorie Mecklenburg was really central to this this movement to erect these crisis pregnancy centers so how did she move from this idea of. Fighting for women's rights Q This idea of giving Penn fled swift and accurate information to women that were already in crisis concerning their own pregnancy. I think that Marjorie Mecklenburg honestly believes the magically inaccurate information that she read I don't think that. She was cynical or sinister in her motives and one of the problems has been the kind of failure of Americans generally to distinguish scientifically and rigorous information from information that happens to come from a scientist so for example it wasn't uncommon for. General practice physician who opposed abortion to make a statement to the effect that abortion caused cancer however American Medical Association consistently disavowed this claim colleges have consistently this it out of this claim so no reputable medical organization has ever endorsed this claim however prominent positions within the anti-abortion movement who are not recognized by the larger profession have consistently made these claims so again I think it's an unwillingness or an inability to differentiate evidence based claims from anecdotal claims yes because you know you talk about so this crisis pregnancy centers and how they had. A position that could have been tricky at one moment because so the Democratic Party was not going to help them because their way and to Washington but they were not very friendly with the Republicans either for a short period of time before before Reagan because to some Catholic priests or some males in the national life for the Right to Life Committee. These these women that went. Pregnant but not married or that wanted to for a moment abort their fallen women so how did magic remake Lemberg make her. Her idea of these crazes pregnancy centers arise from just launching one to what it is today with these ventures all across the u.s. . Yes Ok So there are a couple of issues to parse out so one is this issue of partisanship How did a group of people who may have identified as Democrats come to be on board with Republicans and the 2nd how did the funding of crisis pregnancy centers come to be embraced by politicians so the 1st part. One of the chapters in the book unpacks a very interesting woman named Julie lash who identified as a Democrat and as a feminist she had better civil rights activist and she was an devout Catholic she subscribes to the seamless a garment philosophy which is the position that life is should be valued from conception to jet and she like many others really had a struggle because. The Democratic Party over time adopted a pro-choice klank and at the same time the Republican Party supported the military state. And opposed welfare the very things that women needed in order to be able to continue with pregnancies most of those women moved themselves ideologically to the right you know as far as the 2nd position how did crisis pregnancy centers become. So popular among among politicians how did they get federal and state funding Well one of the answers is is that it's much less expensive to purchase than cereals need and who are these crisis pregnancy centers they're not nearly as expensive as comprehensive health care centers so it actually was financially advantageous to support those programs to support crisis pregnancy centers or abstinence only programs. Then it would have been to support birth control programs or to actually provide women and wish health care services again we are in conversation with carousel how I think prophecy of history at Tulane University and author of the book Women Against Abortion inside the largest moral reform movement of the 20th century you talk about what you call the invention of the post abortion scene from so what is this post these thoughts the abortion syndrome and why is it an intervention. Ok so one thing that I want to clear about is that there are indeed many women who had abortions and regret them and I in no way meaning to diminish their experiences or say that they that is an experience that they didn't have I think I respect every person's reaction to different life experiences however public health research has demonstrated since the 1970 s. The overwhelming experience that women have to an abortion procedure is that is the feeling of relief. And another point of concern for many people is that there is no other way in which adults are we go Lee prohibited Perman gaging in behaviors because they might regret. The only populations historically that we have inhibited the right so because they may later regret their decisions are minors so people under the age of 18 for example cannot do a series of things like get tattoos or get their ears pierced without parental permission because they might later regret those decisions so when this post abortion syndrome if that isn't true. And into law it essentially categorizes women as lacking test in a Terry capacity as as being similar to minors or people who have profound mental illness or untreated mental illness. This idea reminds me of. Something that is so we're going to move to another another women you talk about in your book which is a male friend Jefferson and they say idea of not being totally irresponsible of one's body is in total contradiction with what Dr mill Fred Jefferson thought so could you 1st. Explain to our listeners who Dr myth and Jefferson is and then have thinking about not having a victim position in society Yes So Dr Mildred Jefferson who was the 1st African-American woman to graduate from Harvard Medical School Oh she was raised. In Texas. And she in many regards I think today would be described as a Libertarian. She believed that she had and in many ways she had she built her oh so your own scrappy ness that she was very bright and engaged person she worked very hard. And she she was very conservative she believed that if you work hard and that's good things will happen to you. She was very reluctant to describe any racism or sexism that she most certainly would have experienced as being one of a handful of women and one of the only African-Americans and certainly the only African-American woman doing her residency for example. And. She was opposed to them in its new plant she believed that and then as depicted women as being weak and in need of special protection and special care she thought that if women just worked hard enough equality would come to them. And. And she also was very concerned about the just proportionate rates of abortion among African-Americans and indeed since the 1970 s. Women of color have had disproportionate abortion rights as compared to white women and so she was concerned that abortion was a type of racial genocide. That because especially in nonprofit when its house centers often sought out lower income communities that they were in effect helping to suppress. Low income community populations. So. Dr Mills rhetoric and Jefferson could reconcile Q discourses the 1st when was that q. Had to finally pick yourself up and work in the will queue achieve your dreams and be irresponsible and the meantime would not hello women to have abortions so why why didn't she not want women to have abortions know what was her position about that. She had a very classic. And a abortion stance which was more in line with the Catholic bishops she believed that life began a conception so she conceived of abortion as being her so she is different from other people who later would claim that abortion harmed women that wasn't really of interest to her rather she wanted. Embryonic life to continue for women to that once conception had occurred that feel they should continue until birth. This idea. Of an abortion as a merger is also the idea that Shelly Shannon who you talk about you in your book had and that made her be violence so could you tell us who chalet Shannon was Yes So Shelley Shannon story is more similar to this story that we usually associate with men in the anti-abortion movement so as the book progress is it a gauge is the question of violence more consistently and more directly the story is told in chronological order and so that explains why violence becomes so central to the narrative once I get to the 1980 s. And 1990 s. Chelation and was a born again evangelical Christian who chained to be an anti-abortion activists in the late 1980 s. And early 1990 s. And she saw it as a very dry issue that it was a matter of right and wrong good and evil and the anti-abortion movement really gave her life purpose she'd always struggled to find meaningful employment. And again she had come from a pretty tough childhood and so Shelley Shannon became what is called a rescuer So rescuers are a special type of anti-abortion activist there are people who are willing to rescue you know says at nearly all costs many of them have sent harassing letters or death threats to abortion providers. And again they travel the nation in what they call cells which is similar to the Irish Republican Army so they'll often adopt fictitious names so that they can't identify one another if they're arrested . And so surely Shannon engaged in this form of activism called Rescue. She. She went into a path of violence and she was arrested for not tempt murder. So who did she try to murder and why. So she and her last. She committed a series of arsons throughout California so she made her way from or again all the way to Wichita Kansas which is where Dr George Tiller had a critically famous abortion practice so Shelly she and made it her goal to take out Dr Teller She admitted this in her diary. That that was her goal was to kill him so she posed as a patient in order to try to get into the clinic and she didn't succeed and so when she didn't succeed in actually getting into that clinic she joined anti-abortion activists who were protesting outside of the clinic again this is in 1991. And when Dr Tiller team came out of the clinic after a long day of work. He was driving away from the clinic and that day the protesters were especially aggressive and he raised and off a group of. Protestors and in that moment she shot him in both arms. And he survived and in fact he insisted on going back to work the very next day. And there's a very tragic story and that's that Shelley Shannon while she was incarcerated. After having been found guilty for 2 of these and and murder of Dr Tiller she became good friends with Scott Roeder who was a similarly nomadic troubled person who became enamored by evangelical Christianity and he began. A relationship with her of sorts. They exchanged dozens of letters and in those letters she encouraged him to finish the job that she could not and of course in 2006 Scott Roeder. Murderer Dr Tiller in Dr Tiller's church. You you said just when you introduced Shelley Shannon that she was one of these persons that you would you would imagine her actions to have been made to by males and in fact just during. When she was Judge she said that one of her only regrets was to have beef behave itself like a man so have key things. Did she have these. Ways of thinking in all of her actions or was it just a moment that's really interesting. So one thing that had taken root in media depictions of the anti-abortion movement and especially of the extreme ness was that they were usually depicted as being alone wharves what my research suggests is that these men were rarely operating in isolation often they were working with women usually women had posed as patients they were the ones who knew their way around the clinic knew where to detonate a bomb knew where the heating and cooling unit was I had enclosed discreation and got in their way and. Many many women stopped abortion providers they were able to provide. Radicals with details about where physicians would be eating where they live where they were shocked so very rarely do we actually find an anti-abortion extremist who operated in complete isolation and that includes Shelly Shannon. But again I'm not surprised actually Shannon. Really began to subscribe to this belief that it was primarily men who committed extremist actions because in the end usually men were the ones who got caught but again chelation and into. And desire to kill an abortion provider was not unique to men. There were many women who did who should strive to disbelieve but because she was more successful than other women and because she actually called the trigger that did make her unique in the early 1990 s. . I think that is all we have time for thank you for being with us Kerry said. Thank you it is a pleasure to be on your show thank you again the way in conversation with carousel how Barrick has turned prophesied of history at Tulane University and author of the book remained against abortion inside the largest moral reform movement of the 20th century. And that interview was provided to us by our producer all of sand it's her birthday today and her time with us well so be coming to an end at the end of this week so will miss her but we're very proud of the work that she has done with us over these past 6 months that does it for letters and politics the show is produced by Diana Martinez and I use were both Kristen Thomas is our engineer I mean it's just rich find his online at. The f.a.a. . I think you folks. 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