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This is Iraq a heap in the Wizard English band formed in London named of course after the well known character in the Charles Dickens novel David Copperfield and I believe they're still recording and touring to this very day in the summer of 20143 years after America's full troop withdrawal from the Iraq war President Obama authorized a small task force to push back into Baghdad their mission to protect the Iraqi capital and u.s. Embassy from a rapidly emerging terrorist threat a plague of brutality that would become known as ISIS had created a foothold in the northwest Iraq and northeast Syria it had declared itself a caliphate an independent nation state administered by an extreme and cruel form of Islam o'clock and it was spreading like a newly evolved virus soon a massive and devastating us military response had unfolded a war unprecedented in both its methodology and its application of modern military technology entered the world of the strike cell secretive operation centers where America's greatest enemies are hunted and killed day and night my conversation with the commander of the multinational force that waged a new kind of war against this brutal radical Islamic contagion went coast to coast am continues. 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Dana j h but tard retired from the Us Army in 2015 at the rank of Major General after 34 years of active duty service he was a highly decorated combat leader and commanded units at every echelon from Platoon to division including multiple combat tours in Iraq and the Middle East in 2014 he was picked to lead the initial u.s. Response to halt the aggressive spread of ISIS in Iraq Dana is a West Point graduate and a Harvard fellow he's vice president with a manufacturing company in Indiana and he currently lives with his wife Lucille in the Indianapolis area Dana petard welcome to coast to coast am how are you I'm doing well thank you very much and we are on the eve of remembrance day up here in Canada and Veterans Day in the United States I thank you for your service thank you thank you for your support I wonder if you could really sort of set the table for us prior to the multinational force to push back against ISIS in fact prior to the formation of ISIS in the Caliphate I want to go back to the surge and get you to explain you know these 165000 u.s. Troops. Known as the surge what wasn't what was involved in why was it so successful in in really sort of reconstructing that the fabric of Iraqi society. Well the surge in fact was very successful for several reasons one is the strategy behind it which was to. Go where the people were because prior to that the u.s. Military was on the kind of big bases throughout Iraq in which is kind of community and 2 to 3 places where the people were and when General David Petraeus took over the multinational force Iraqi command in we will study already of 2007 change the strategy and the strategy called for small u.s. Forces with their Iraqi security force counterparts. In the neighborhood block by block where the people work in that way was the best way really to fight the insurgency and at its height as you mentioned the surge at 165000 u.s. Troops there in Iraq and it was successful in fact. By 2008 and certainly early 2009. Had really been largely defeated and the the rain that was still there when the u.s. Forces left in 2011. And those run that then went to to Syria and stayed in and some Sunni provinces within Iraq but mainly went to Syria and reconstituted and became really the root of what would later become ISIS that's a Lennox State of Iraq and Syria so when the u.s. Troops withdrew in 2011 and this would ultimately lead to this this delicate fabric being torn asunder once again but the Iraqi government itself also played a role in that explain. They did in fact. The Iraqi prime minister Nouri al Maliki who was elected in in in a democratic election 2006 and initially did a pretty good job of trying to unify the Iraqi people that the majority of Iraqi you know well over 50 percent closer to 60 percent of the Iraqi population are Shia and it's Shia Muslims similar to Shia Muslims in Iran. A good 25 to 30 percent of the population are Sunni. Sunni Muslims some are to Saudi Arabia Saddam Hussein had been Sunni. And then about 10 maybe 15 percent of population is Kurdish. So initially as the prime minister try to unify the nation overall but then. In 2007 really after the u.s. Forces left and there wasn't that pressure on him from us he started to be much more sectarian and started to have more harsher policies against Sunni Muslims in the Sunni provinces such as fellow then alarm bar Mina was in other places in Iraq and that that cause resentment from the Sunni population which gave an opening to ISIS to be able to start germinating just a little bit in the Sunni provinces and how explain how ISIS was able to spread its influence and it and create this caliphate in Iraq and Syria so quickly it almost seemed you know to the casual observer like it happened over night. Well it certainly took some time but ISIS that a lot of followers in Syria and it was because of opposition to the. President Syria President Bashar al Assad and there were over well overall 1100 that's one tongue 100 opposition groups and Isis was just one of them but it began to grew to grow get many more followers harsh policies like Sharia law wherever it went and it just began to grow and it had good funding and funding from external sources it found internal funding by taking over some of the oil wells oil fields in north eastern Syria and it began to grow and eventually took over 25 percent of. The land of Syria and then in 2014 is when it began to spread into Iraq started 1st in the western province a lot about Lombard in January of 2014 and not a whole lot of attention was given to what was going on at that turn. In fact when ISIS took over Fallujah which was only 69 kilometers away from Baghdad itself even President Obama said they're like the j.v. . They write to 3 forces can handle and that's what a lot of the different nations around the world kind of thought. Where there was big concern was really in June of 2014 when the ice is really with an army invaded northern Iraq and took over Iraq's 2nd largest city of Mosul with over a 1000000 people and that calls a lot of bells throughout the Capitals not only the region but even the world and it was at that point where President Obama made a decision to send a small task force. Myself into man with $300.00 special operators and staff really to assess the situation because of that time it was only 2 years after Benghazi and Libya when the unfortunate death and bastard Stevens and 3 other Americans so there's a lot of concern that after taking over Mosul in northern Iraq that ISIS was then move on Baghdad and that was very serious they were coming down the Tigris River Valley from the north the south coming from the west to the east along your phrase Valley so there was a lot of. Talk that that ISIS would be able to take Baghdad itself and are in the city and what would have happened had Baghdad fallen to the caliphate where would we be now. The world would be in a different place. ISIS would have taken over an entire major country. And would have had access to not only the. Whole field in Syria which are that there aren't that many but the huge oil fields in Iraq. ISIS the whole fight against ISIS cause some strange bedfellows because Isis hated Iran. And Shia and Shia Muslims so they were also against ISIS just like we were Russia was against ISIS Turkey was against ISIS so ISIS actually helped them unify quite a few different desperate disparate elements that might normally be fighting each other but aligned together to fight ISIS even other Sunni tribes aligned against ISIS yes because ISIS. Governed or attempted to govern using al Sharia law which was very harsh the very brutal they would come in 2 different Sunni provinces and killed tribal leaders and say Now we're in charge that would work in some areas but in most areas it just did not work in fact a huge vulnerability for ISIS was their ability to govern which caused them to have to keep. Many of the ISIS fighters active in the different territories and take over to again force the population under there under their rule So explain your role as a commander of this joint national force multinational force sorry it was called the Joint Forces went to burn it command arac r.j. Flick I and I was under. A combined joint task force headed by Lieutenant General James Terry 3 star who was based out of Cole weight and and he worked for the Centcom commander which is Central Command which was commanded by General Lloyd Austin out of Tampa Florida Centcom headquarters but it was a most. It was a joint as well as multinationals to man because it included. A coalition partners like Great Britain Australia and others as well as of course Iraqi security forces. And your co-author Wes Bryant he was said joint terminal attack controller What did say that Jay tac is going to be a jack which is a special operations and Air Force Special Operations senior enlisted Jack and it was used to being on the ground with different forces really all over the world Afghanistan Iraq other places and what we asked of the j. Tax was since we weren't allowed to have boots on the ground present bottle was pretty clear as far as our rules and gauge went we couldn't have our advisors at least at that side on the ground with Iraqi security forces. In actual engagements with them so our innovative work around was to develop this strike cell strike so the. Command and control kind of center 30 people in it we position j. Tax in there who controlled aircraft. On the front wall with a huge flat screen t.v. Which gave us this you an unbelievable view using our man an unmanned aerial system and it 1st folks like Wes Bryant were suspicious they thought there's no way this can replace a person on the ground but in fact after we started it they all began to say that wait a minute if we have enough predator drones up there you can see the really the entire battlefield and you're able to. Air strikes on the enemy that were extreme forces and the Kurdish forces were engaging them. And we had a number of he was he listed in charge of that group along with a a maybe I would. Who in the book is called. But it included Air Force special operations folks and maybe SEALs Army Green Berets it was really a great group of men and women so the idea of coordinating Iraqi soldiers on the ground and this concerted air attack and that philosophy had been around I guess you know since the 2nd World War But here what is the what is the difference the precision of the drone strikes the fact that these are you know these are being coordinated from remote locations I mean you could even be stateside coordinating this good new. But to an extent but the difference here was. This have been tried certainly before successfully but never on this scale where you had a strike cell basically controlling all air strikes in central and western Iraq usually something like that might take place in a brigade or division of operations or even strike large. Air strikes to be controlled from other places but never quite on this scale to support ground operations on a continuous 24 hour 7 day a week scale we also had special operations teams that were with the Iraqi security forces in their headquarters different different levels so that we could have it you know the orders translated back and forth so. The commanders on the ground could call back to our special forces teams they were related back to the strikes will also I was in contact always with the Iraqi senior leaders who are also on the ground any time and again we would push you know we're pushing the Iraqis to fight because. Quite frankly they they lost a lot of their morale when ISIS 1st took Mosul in June of 20145 Iraqi divisions really were destroyed or revisions and one Federal Police Division were destroyed so. The morale was down but the Iraqi army at that time how do you be part of them getting back that will how do you begin. You know when as you say that the caliphate had rolled over 25 percent of Iraq where do you begin in terms of of targets and what exactly are the rules of engagement. Well that's very good question I think took over 25 percent of Syria Syria and a 3rd of Iraq. Initially on the ground in June of 2014 and just in time for the ISIS leader Al Baghdadi to declare the Caliph that you know this geographical nation state earlier allowed to. To conduct airstrikes at that time the present Bible is a mystery we're at 1st a little bit reluctant and those for a couple reasons are probably good reasons one was they didn't want to seem like they were in support of Prime Minister ology who were still in office and they want to seem like they were just a quote Shia Air Force unquote so understood that the other reason was the prison bomb was elected in 2008 to get us out of war. Today if they reduced. Our troop levels in Afghanistan and brought all troops from Aracoma 2000 levels of reluctance to get back into another conflict in the Middle East so part of the reason why we were able to start airstrikes really in August 2014 were 2 reasons one is. Through diplomatic pressure and the Iraqi. Elections. A new prime minister was voted into office and then ISIS made a strategic error they turned around and attacked. The Iraqi Kurds province of or below and there were a lot of calls from the world of hey we got to do something so we were at that point we had been watching the Iraqi and the ISIS fighters for 6 weeks we had gathered intelligence President Obama gave the authorization to conduct airstrikes who were absolutely ready at that time obviously open court. We're going to take a timeout here running up against the bottom of the hour I understand we have you just for the hour so when we come back I want to get to the. Your forces come. Targeting of Abu alley the local ISIS leader in Fallujah this is a remarkable story how you lowered him into a trap and then we'll talk about this this new way of waging war and what does this mean for future u.s. Involvement overseas seems to be a game changer could change everything we still need you know large military presence throughout the world we'll discuss all that and more with Dana j h but hard retired u.s. Army major general when coast to coast am continues here is our Rob limo taking us into the break with melting pot Stay with us. Me. In the. Bar. For another. Like the. One man who really truly gets a reason why originalism matters when it comes to. Who cares there's no point in having a written constitution if you're not going to climb with it and if we're not going to comply with it who says we should the Democratic Party on what basis a living and breathing constitution what they mean by that is an all powerful centralized government to achieve their policy in. My. 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Here's your guest Richard series Jason is below in the 400 units he hails from green hell of Bama but now calls Nashville home NASA astronaut says we need a shield around the world before it's too late and barely a week goes by without news of a near miss from another asteroid and this NASA scientist wants the world to be better protected you can read more about it in the in the news section up at coast to coast am dot com say if you like what you're hearing tonight this morning you might want to find out more about what I do when. 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Army Dana petard and he is the co-author along with West Bryant of hunting the Caliph at America's war on ISIS and the dawn of the strike cell So let's talk about Fallujah and Abu Ali this local ice is leader there and tell me about how you got him I did in fact as a scribe in our book that we put in the prologue of our book kind of tell us that well. I do are we in that which is. Known the girl as we call it you know is terrorist name. He ruled. With an iron fist over a portion of Fallujah and where his. Home was his compound was surrounded in fact those who are familiar with really Iraq in the Middle East you know many of the homes are all connected. To a mud wall. And. There were so many people 'd in one small block so we went they saw our women gauges you are allowed to see him at his compound because there was too much. Damage that would been caused So in order to really strike him and some of his. Leaders we had to make sure that we got him out we watched his compound 24 hours really for a long time took a lot of patience aerial. Drones manned and unmanned aerial intelligence systems. We listen to him. On these communications. We also knew that he was a hands on later and that actually was something that we noticed that a lot of ISIS leaders. Were given credit that they were in fact great to a fault. They were bloodthirsty ruthless. But they're also very brave so when meeting occurred with their forces they really went to the front lines so in this case we knew if we hit a when the checkpoints and the checkpoints were manned by 3 to 5 ISIS fighters with checkpoints resigned to control different areas of the city. And you know trucks and cars going through the people have to pay tolls so we hit one of those with an air strike and then just watch to see what would happen and we watch and saw that lead. Lieutenants came to him drove to his compound and they. Spoke they met and then he got in a car. With. And that's quarter 2 vehicles I believe 'd and then went to the site from South ended up being 2 vehicles went there and then on the way there we knew the different routes he could take. And then now to down to one of 2 and we were prepared we had to it was coalition aircraft with British aircraft in fact in the air and trucks were given the pilots as far as it had to be a certain angle of attack because blues is also known as a City of Mosques seems like there's a mosque on every other corner and part of the gaze is we could hit you know places of worship like a mosque so it was a very tight kind of strike and so it had to be done at a certain angle and. The bridge positive for a good job. There were missiles hit imo Kenya sleep both cars killing. And. Tesco it's all kind of chord nation does this require on the ground in terms of intelligence or is it all done from you know video on drones and so forth various means obviously there's there's. There's nothing like having intelligence on the ground from people on the ground that's why it is this recent decision in Syria to withdraw from where the Syrian Kurds were. Is a tough one because the Syrian Kurds give us a lot of good intel on the ground which in fact even helped helped lead to the Al Big Daddy late. But there inclusion to the 14 people on the ground were helpful but also again aerial systems. Our sigint as we call it signals intelligence what you can get from radio traffic from phones so it's all that it's pieced together to be able to give us a picture of what's going on as well as the movements and the and intelligence from Iraqi security forces Kurdish Peshmerga all that goes into. Getting this picture of the enemy and the best time to strike in fact we've been watching them so closely in other areas of Iraq and Syria that we start to notice that ISIS leaders even the most senior leaders would show up on the battlefield just to you know rally their fighters. So suddenly after a while many of our engagements as and we're actually forces attacking or doing off into the operation against an ISIS position was more designed to be a leadership ambush in some cases than just trying to take a position because we wanted to draw all the leaders and that's why it was no accident within 8 months of starting this started a strike in August of 2014 within 8 months which chilled 40 of the top 50 ISIS leaders. They're going to look no accident remarkable and so the idea here is that that you would. Sort of soften up these targets take out cut off the head of the snake and then allow the the Kurds or the Sunni tribesmen that were opposed to ISIS or the Iraqi soldiers. You know they would be a sort of void with confidence and they would go in and mop up is that how the caliphate was dismantled so quickly. To the extent a number of things one of that one is really pushing their extreme forces to push beyond Baghdad and take back territory. When when ISIS surprised the world and took Mosul in June 2014 they really seemed like an unstoppable offensive juggernaut So 1st and foremost we had to stop their off and said momentum and were able to stop that within the 1st few months we put ISIS on the defensive really by by December of 2014 and ISIS really was really able to do much all sense of late again they we saw a little bit of that in early 2000 sitting there after that period time Isis was completely on the defensive so then for the next 2 years from 2015 to 17 it was now rooting out ISIS I says wasn't attacking them or they were just defending. And so there was a a well planned campaign plan to take different cities different towns and different provinces to root out ISIS after awhile and it worked and the whole idea was with taking off the head of the state. New Leaders which would come in to take their places leaders that were killed but over time those leaders became more concerned about their own securely then really believing ISIS fighters and that's what we wanted them again ISIS was kind of built on brave leaders up front rallying their troops their fighters. But after a while their leaders were afraid to show up because again they would target and so well. Now this methodology this these remote strikes Sallust and you know surgical strikes from the air using drones and so forth when was that involved at all in taking down Big Daddy. Yes From what I can tell again that just recently occurred of given that out of the fight for for a little while. But it is a combination of really good intelligence and then actually putting. A strike package together as far as special operators on the ground supported by. Manned and unmanned aerial systems. Strike aircraft to to get al Baghdadi So that's really was a part of that now a year prior to the operation in Fallujah where you got Abu Ali you were assigned to a Special Forces team in Afghanistan Negara province which you describe in the book as a hotbed of Taliban activity and thank you Larry to the most named objectives quote end quote explain what you mean by named objectives and what was your mission there sure that was actually West Bryant who was a special operations. On the ground in Afghanistan but what was meant by that is there was a number of we call named objectives those would be leaders in the Taleban and as well as even ISIS began to show its ugly head in Afghanistan. But they had sanctuary in places like Pakistan. And that was always a tough one because the Taliban would just go back to to Pakistan regroup and then come back again into Afghanistan right. So this whole philosophy that was so effective in Iraq. Why why couldn't it be employed in that the quagmire of Afghanistan which is going on 20 years what's the difference how it could be if you know if we took off. The handcuffs to an extent but but Afghanistan is is also a complex the all its own also eventually there's got to be a settlement I mean it's you know no matter what the conflict in need to be a whole of government approach even against ISIS it wasn't just military it was also using. Diplomacy using our economic power. Our informational power you know I should say one time was putting out 90000 tweets a day so we had to fight them over the online Airways to the extent so the whole government approach and same thing with the Taliban but. The Taliban the way to in that conflict is going to have to be a negotiated settlement I believe that includes the Taliban. And we can fight we can try to strike them but that that wouldn't be a long term solution for Afghanistan it's got to be a solution that the Afghan Afghanistan people. Can live with the the development of this new methodology to these remote strikes else what does this mean for future u.s. . Involvement overseas. Well again every conflict is different so I hate to say that. What worked in this conflict will automatically work in the next conflict however if you look at the surge and we talked about that earlier 165000 u.s. Troops were on the ground at the height of the surge into the 70000 a day in the rack. Or against ISIS You know what thirsty opponent is and had their own army. Our footprint was intact when I was there a footprint was 1500 and at its height I don't believe there is more than 15000 u.s. Troops there compare 15165000 there's a chapter in the book when Senator John McCain has great respect for visit Iraq and he really got my face and said you need to request more troops back I'm thinking about 50000. Volts we don't need that many We this is a different way of fighting where the bulk of the fighting takes place. Is done by region and troops that country like in this case was Iraqi street forces the Shia militias it was the Kurdish Peshmerga they formed the boke of the troops on the ground while we supported them and that can work in many places in the world but that's not going to work if it's a war against China or war against Russia but in many places around the world. This same methodology with our technology can be used. I would I would think that kind of a war would would be an easier sell with the public. Because you're not going to see you know. A steady flow of you know body bags which is a horrible horrible image obviously but maybe not such a big sell with the defense contractors What do you think. Well maybe so I did events I guess on the contractors as those who are selling things like. Manned and unmanned aerial systems I'm sure are doing high fives but yes but we can never try to sell to the American people that that war is without cause or is about violence . And the prosecution of that violence against an enemy and ideally you want to reduce reduce the number of casualties much as possible but there's no such thing as war without cost and without violence. Where we're heading towards a time when I mean we have these semi autonomous. Weapons that are tethered to a human being at the control. But the time is coming I don't think it'll be very long before we have untethered autonomy. Weapons What are your thoughts on that. Well as long as somewhere in the. Chain of decision is a as a human being I'm Ok with it. And fact there's some protective systems on. Surrounding tanks these days and other vehicles that are automatic so it's a weapon as far as I'm automatic the protection system comes comes out regardless of who's on the ground around the vehicle could be projection very dangerous but I think that is the wave of the future we just have to be careful and economy and there's some. Moral and ethical things as far as what we were doing an inciting a crisis. One thing that that I just could not do was they couldn't surrender to a drone. So went after him until you killed them all now if they surrendered on the ground direct through forces we understood that. If you saw a white flag or you saw them put their hands up and you stopped but very difficult to tell that when you are. Doing your strike based on what you see from manned and unmanned aerial systems very difficult for them and surrender we just have about 30 seconds here Dana but now that the caliphate has been more or less destroyed what do you see as for the future of Iraq. Well a lot of things of that one is yes geographical territory owning Caliph that ISIS Cal that has been defeated or ISIS as a terrorist network in fact the very lethal and dangerous to terrorist network is still there and there's also other insurgent groups that are out there so. That is something we must continue to be vigilant on and to continue to prosecute. Against them. Certainly has a future but. From the government side has got to unify its population of Kurds Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims into one Iraqi nation. Dana thank you so much for your time congratulations on hunting the Caliphate America's war on ISIS and the dawn of the strikes Al Appreciate your time thank you sir and thank you for your service. 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