The oxytocin circling back to that comes in because it is the hormone of bonding and belonging it's what happens between a mother and child and so when the oxytocin is released we come into what Sherri Taylor called tend and be friend or calm and connect it brings a sense of safety to the brain and by the way this whole attachment cycle is Ok I'm home with someone who loves me and takes care of me there's a threat I go to them for protection I get the protection I get sooth now I'm ready to take a risk and go off in the world but another threat happens and I go back to my secure attachment figure did get comforted and protected again that's a cycle we feel safe we take a risk of something happens we get scared we come back we get comforted and protected I want to insert your question about their Lyme glad that you're broad. Taylor because we've seen the research about women have a greater tendency to tend and be friend and so is there a difference between men and women here because I think culturally men are taught to be independent in independent of that reaching out is there a difference so the biology underneath that culture is men do have more of a suppressant and it's a molecule that's chemically similar to oxytocin So it's true women have more oxytocin men have more of a suppressor what the vessel Presson does for men is it encourages them to protect So the woman is tending and be friending and the man is protecting the family now that can be expressed in various cultural forms where the men man defends the home or provides for the home and the woman takes care of the children it can be culturally expressed but it's based in our biology so does that mean so. When we talk about feeling safe. Do men have a little more challenge to to actually use this kind of exercise to be to feel safe do they have a bigger challenge men are socialized to be the protectors and the providers so they may actually feel a sense of safety from providing and protecting the family that's where a sense of safety might come from for them in order to feel safe we need to be able to acknowledge our vulnerability a little bit that we need to feel safe that we need to feel protected and in the culture that is harder for men to feel I don't think biologically it's harder for them to feel but culturally men are trained to not feel that are not let that show if they feel it and in fact there's some wonderful work being done now in the mind for self compassion protocol for men by Danielle and very Steve Heckman who are who are allowing their calling vulnerability to be the ultimate courage to be able to acknowledge what's really going on and bring compassion for there is the ultimate courage So yes we have some cultural conditioning to deal with. But I think nonetheless the biology is still we can use these tools to create a sense of safety so that the brain remains now plastic I'm just recalling I d.v.r. What a lot of things and one of the things I d.v.r. While I was away on a trip was a c.m.a. Awards these are the Country Music Awards and it's great to see him or her to. Go through the commercials because there are so many of them but and I'm not even through the whole thing yet but there was a song that Garth Brooks sang for the 1st time and even his wife Trisha Yarbrough I think is his wife was sitting in the audience she had not even heard this song yet and I don't recall the name of it but it was a whole song of how much he loved her and his feeling he could feel vulnerable because of her because she was the strength to allow him to feel that vulnerability I. People should just kind of through finance song somewhere because it was so powerful I was really shocked that a man would come up with such a song that is talking exactly about what you are saying Well I think what's important for resilience is that we develop our capacities to be with and work with any of our emotions and then even to work with any of the cultural messages or any of that internal messages that we might have about those emotions because when we can shift our perspective we're going to be more flexible and more resilient so just being able to look at anything that's happening and our reactions to anything that's happening and be able to shift gears that's really the key my my colleague Frankie Perez says. How you respond to the issue is the issue there goes and I am I want to go also to our our relationship with ourselves you know we talk about safety with you know finding others but also finding safety in the self-love within or for ourselves and it seems to me in one thing that you mentioned this is our home base this is where we can come home to that we don't have to depend on others always we we need to develop this within ourselves so there's a chicken and egg thing going on here it's true I mean the relational intelligence within a chapter is about developing a self-awareness self acceptance self appreciation self love that is the foundation of our inner secure base of resilience how that develops is back and forth in interactions with other people where we can take that experience feeling loved so we come to love ourselves it goes back and forth that's why I have relational intelligence within and relational intelligence with others because they really dovetail so I'm unthinking you say search out people who have healthy brains like hang out with them. That's very beneficial do you have any comments on the 2 levels one I included that in the book in the chapter on brain care and taking care of your brain and there are so many things we can do to take care of the physical brain exercise and sleep and nutrition and learning something new and a hanging out with healthy brains is one of those things because the brain stays more active engaged but we also know that that at a social cultural level that when we're hanging out with healthy brains people who have done their work so to speak and can be managing of their own experiences and resilience in their own experiences then we don't have to be defended or guarded or manipulated. Or on guard anything we can just be open which is the safest condition for the brain for learning every being resilient so. That's what you what you would recommend there is a lifestyle choice so to speak it's a lifestyle choice and if the 2 ice that prolongs life and now more and more research is showing that the people who have the best longevity are the people who are happy in relationships and in community when they're social connection we live longer. Ok aren't so developing in those in search of those and really being aware of when we are just around a lot of negative people doubts going to drag us down so they have too much of that in our lives may not be healthy so I've come up with sort of a metaphor my colleague illogical to me and I talk about this just like periodic Lee you clean out your house and e.u. Go through and recycle the things that you don't need anymore periodic Lee We have to prune our relationships as well if relationships are negative or toxic or make us feel smaller fires shamed it might be important to be able to prune them and cultivate relationships like you cultivate positive emotions cultivate relationships that are healthy for our wellbeing so with that that's really good advice that maybe not as easily kept so to speak because there is going to take some effort on our part well and it takes skill so the relational intelligence with others has a lot of skills of setting limits and boundaries communicating without shame and blame negotiating change in a relationship repairing a rupture coming to forgiveness there are a lot of skills we can learn that allow us to relate to people in healthier and healthier ways. I'm thinking that one of the exercises that you have it and repairing let's say a relationship is that just like me. Exercise which we can talk about in in a bit. I'm want to remind our listeners that I'm here with Linda Graham and she is a licensed psychotherapist a medication teacher and she publishes a monthly e Newsletter entitled healing and awakening to a life ness and wholeness and she has many many resources on her website and I suggest you look them up. And they are archived on our Web site go to lend them dash m f t dot net as in marriage family therapist m.f.t. Dot net or you can get there through the New Dimensions website New Dimensions dot org I'm just steamed well as terms you're listening to new dimensions. I'm here with Linda Gray and we're talking about resilience and she is the author of resilience powerful practices for bouncing back from disappointment difficulty and even disaster and Lynn I just mentioned before the break I mentioned when we are looking to repair let's say a relationship in this is always challenging and you have a wonderful exercise and it's called just like me and you get if you can describe that for us so many give credit to Mark common who wrote making peace with your mind because that's where I got the exercise again using that with his permission the idea is to overcome the sense of otherness or difference that might create a gulf between us and a person where relating to and relating that back to repairing a rupture. The most important thing in repairing our rupture is to prioritize the relationship over being right. When the relationship is more important than your position or your opinion or being right then you can focus on doing the repair with another person so just like me helps that because it cultivates our sense of common humanity just like me this person wants to be happy just like me this person has fears and disappointments just like me this person wants to be important in their lives just like me this person struggles with their own emotions what whatever works because then that creates a sense of commonality and common humanity between you and the other person and that's what allows to put the connecting to be more important than your own independent individual opinion there is so really we're just giving listeners a little flavor of some of these exercises and another one I want you to mention it was a story that you told that I really loved and I think it wasn't your client but it was someone else's client who has the name you used in the book was Shawn and he had he was. Plagued by negative emotions and then he was given an exercise of doing something before he even got out of bed do you recall this Oh yes of Carl's great and please so I actually thought I was my client and he complained about where he up in anxiety every morning so there wasn't that sense of well being and so I encouraged him to simply do whatever practice he wanted to do when he was home in bed waking up gratitude practice or mindfulness practice or hand on the heart but to not get out of bed until he was in a state of calm in a state of well being and he would say I mean it would he would wake up it would take an hour but then it took 35 minutes and then it took 15 minutes and then it took 5 minutes and one day he woke up in that state of calm so he had retrained the managing of his nervous system so I offered that story sim. They to say we can to use to do a practice when we repeat it many many times over time it will have an effect and not only then do we learn something that manages our experience so we can become more resilient but we learn that we can we learn that we can be a learner that we can train our brains to become more resilient and that's part of our resilience is to learn that we can do that and trust ourselves that we can do that and I think that this one is especially relevant to these times because there's a lot of pressure on us there is like climate change or the polarization of politics or terrorism or these you know just over and over we're just getting all this news just bombarded with news and this is a very good I thought practice to just practice this in the morning so that we don't wake up and we just kind of think oh another day I wonder what bad news is going to happen today well then I would also suggest because all those things that you mentioned are not just discrete individual stressors that we have to deal with it's it's a change in the whole system of what it means to be alive on this planet and so it generates a kind of existential anxiety and I think it's important that people come to a practice they come to their own values that has a larger spiritual dimension to it somehow we are part of something that is larger and vaster than we are and whether that's coming to the wise view are wise understanding of the Buddhist tradition that leads to wise effort we need some way to come to terms with we don't know we're not in control there's a lot of uncertainty there certainly impermanence and coming to terms with those realities of life so I've done some research on post-traumatic growth and we talk about that some in the book of being able to accept what's happened. Being and to be able to resource with other people and to be able to find the positive even in the midst of a difficult hard time because that gives us some breathing room it gives us a respite but then also finding the lessons of the silver lining the gift in the mistake and coming to a coherent narrative all this happened before here was the event here's how I dealt with it here's what I learned and now here's my life going forward this is what I learned because of that event not just in spite of it this is a new baseline for my life because of what happened not for certain So you're you're looking at your own. Time that you were successful. When you coped well. When you coped when you met the adversity well with some skill and some flexibility. So that's another one that you need to have ready for when when you need it then that that maybe you do some journaling about times in your life that you coped well yes that would be part of a coherent narrative and journaling is actually a very useful tool to help people cope with something is difficult because we get a little bit more emotional distance from whatever's happening but to open up to a larger spiritual perspective often helps people cope with these very very very difficult overwhelming experiences to know that there's something a larger holding them or there's some larger meaning and purpose even if we don't fully understand where is the curtain say it well to be curiosity that's that's what I go for is curious like well maybe I don't know enough in maybe you know that I'm curious as to how this is all going to turn out in its turn out well in the past and it's not mine to worry about but it's mine too to act in the moment with my center of influence into the mess I can to be a benefit and that's where I go I try to go there was a quote that I learned from. Clarissa Penn call estus through Jack Kornfield and it's something like we can't solve everything our task is to mend the little patch where we are. Yeah there you go there you go and that's good right mean that we say Ok we can get overwhelmed by the enormity of what's being presented to us but if we each do that little path those patches go over laffin I think it's important to see where other people are being resilient not just ourselves so Helen Keller said all the world is full of suffering it is also full of overcoming and when we look at examples of other people who are meeting their difficulties and their stressors with resilience with compassion and with reaching out to other people and being of service then we get Boyd in our own efforts to be resilient and compassionate and engaged so as again the common humanity that sense of being connected to other people as Mr Rogers used to say look for the helpers or the helpers and I'm reminded to of something he meant that you talk about in your book in your work and that has to do with. Attention and that that the where we put our attention this is foundational so I'd love for you to mention attention and how important it is where we focus so in order to be able to be resilient we need to be present and we need to know what we're dealing with and so that's come that's focusing our attention on one of the phrases I use in the book is know what you're experiencing while you're experiencing it. Because otherwise you're not going to know how or what to respond to so it's the basics of mindfulness of paying attention to what we're experiencing while we're experiencing it so that we can discern what possible options we might have in our responses to give an example or that somehow for us so here's one of the exercises that I also teach in the book and I got this one from Stuart I was in Dr who researches mindfulness and depression at u.c.s.f. Medical school and the exercise is visualization it's to of course feel safe and comfortable present in your body and then imagine that you're walking down the street down a sidewalk in your hometown some place where you feel comfortable and at ease and then you notice someone on the other side of the street walking toward you and you wave and you call out hello and it's no response you notice your response to their lack of response. Then after a moment they notice you and they wave and they call out hello and you notice your response now when there's a connection and it simply mindful attention to the difference in our responses because usually there is a difference in our response and when we feel connected we feel open and if we feel disconnected we might go into shame so it's simply paying attention to what's happening so you can decide how you want to respond to what's happening. Yes Yeah and we only have like like I don't know most of the millet. I want you to just say something about taking a digital vacation. Just because now more research is showing the impact of the overuse of our digital technology on our brain we're losing capacity is a concentration reversing a path that is of empathy we're losing capacities for solitude and reflection it's important to take a vacation from my digital devices to allow the brain to recoat and function the way it has evolved to function not with so much over stimulation from our devices Ok that's a big order thank you for doing that in capsule lady noun and you can look at more detail in a Linda's book so I want to remind our listeners I want to thank you so much Linda for being with us today thank you just you know a lot of fun great it was great for me too it was great to go through your book and find so many great exercises I've been speaking with Linda Graham a she's a licensed psychotherapist and meditation teacher and her website is lend Graham dash f t dot net Linda Graham Desh m.f.t. Dot net she is the author of resilience powerful practices for bouncing back from disappointment difficulty and even disaster and you can also get to our website by going to the New Dimensions website New Dimensions dot org I'm just saying well as times you've been listening to new dimensions this is program number 3662 New Dimensions radio has been making a difference on our planet since 1973 thanks to the generosity of our listeners. 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Each week New Dimensions explores the social political scientific environmental and spiritual frontiers with some of today's foremost social innovators thinkers scientists and creative artists Hi I'm Katie Butler author of The Art of Dying Well next time on new dimensions I'll be talking not only about dying while but living well. It's Indian decay midi Garberville $91.00 f.m. . Radio time of useful consciousness. Professor Peter bottoms the fate of the ice sheet on the top of the wound in early 2019 knows about accelerated melting and Arctic and Antarctic made me return to trusted sources. In the most recent t u c program you heard Professor Eric when your Explain the connection between ocean warming and the massive loss of the West and Arctic glaciers for the Arctic we turn to Professor Peter Woden's the U.K.'s most experienced c.i. a Scientist Professor of ocean physics at the University of Cambridge. In an age of exploration work computer models after and dominate his research is special because you're actually did decades our field work on under the ice and submarines as opposed to the Antarctic that is a continent of mountains and valleys covered in ice the North Pole is an ocean covered with an ice sheet that touched the coastlines off Greenland Canada Alaska and said barrier 400000 years. In only 30 years the way to turn the coastlines during the Arctic summer accelerated and an ice free Arctic in September may our current early as 2020 and the Arctic Winter is no longer cold enough to restore the level of bitter bottom Sayres made more than 50 expeditions to both polo regions in his most recent book a farewell to ice he describes in vivid detail are the changes in the Arctic and the danger they pose to the world's climate Dave ballers runs a You Tube channel that he named just have a think. He said down with Peter bottoms in late November 28th. And asked to be brought up to date on the current situation and the prognosis for the future my thanks go to Dave for his permission to use this excellent interview date welcome to just have a think and I'm very happy to be here with Professor Peter Ward and Peter thank you so much for spending some time with us today it's a pleasure to meet you just for the for the handful of people who may not be aware of your body of work can you give is just a sort of summary of what you've been up to and how you got into and what the main emphasis of your work has been over the well I got into. C.i.s. Research by accident to me I always wanted to be an oceanographer partly because my family had been sailors but I was very keen on physics at school so a way of combining physics and going to see who speak to become an oceanographer So when I 1st graduated I got a job on an oceanographic ship for a year when the Canadians were doing the 1st circum their vacation of North and South America still the only one that's ever been done by the ship called the Hudson I really wanted to to be a petition of oceanographer which means you say you were out in the tropics and saw her but unfortunately I got sold dogs because we went down to the Antarctic and worked in there in ice ice covered seas and then we came us back through the Northwest Passage and they had a very interesting time getting stuck in the ice so in those days there was very few people working on sea ice the 1st conference I went to on it where I think the entire population of the world of sea ice research is went to a to Iceland that they haven't had a conference of sea ice for 13 years and so the whole everybody went and there was only 80 people that was the whole population of sea ice was so. So I was the kind of official university scientist really was attached to the Navy whenever they sent a submarine to the Arctic What do you think what's been the extent of ice loss since you've been I mean you've been looking at it for what 40 odd years yes yes it's huge We can always measure the the loss of area of the ice from satellites because they can see the difference between what dark so it was known that the ice area was shrinking by about 3 percent a decade some time low rate of shrinkage. Gradually meant that the summarise started to shrink back from the coastlines of the Arctic so instead of even the summer ice cover filling the Arctic Ocean it was it was shrinking back a little bit allowing the existence of a northwest passage in the world and see if you're lucky. But then the rate started to accelerate and nobody had looked at actually how thick the ice was where though it's pretty obvious really it's if the ice shrinks and it has to melt to move it. Is going to melt it's got to get thin 1st so the outreach think this should be going down so I started asking the Navy to take the subway in over the same track each time and so we did 2 tracks that were identical over the Arctic Ocean from Greenland to the pole. In $197687.00 so 11 year gap that gap resulted in a 15 percent decrease in thickness that was so I wrote that up that was the 1st real report on thinning of ice in the Arctic for the 15 percent was just a start because then the next voyage we did in the ninety's it was up to 43 percent loss of oil a lot of thing is all loss of thickness. But it's more it's at least 50 percent loss of thickness but because of the shrink. It is well it's 3 quarters of the ice is gone the downward trend is so strong that it really is going to get rid of all the sun on us very soon then won't come back give us a layman's sort of snapshot of why that's such a dramatic 4th of a requirement issue Yes Well when you have sea ice especially if it's if the fresh snow on top then it'll be there which is the fraction of so radiation that's reflected straight back into space is about 80 or 90 percent but open water is less than 10 percent it's the biggest transition in our paedo on the planet is if you have ice sea ice in take it away or snow and take that away that means a huge amount of extra energy absorbed by either the sea or the land just the loss of sea ice is equivalent to adding a quarter to the warming effect of the c o 2 we're adding to the atmosphere and then also Wittes with finding that the area of snow in the northern lands the arc the Arctic in the sub arctic that's going down and it's come down by about 6000000 square kilometers so that's as big a loss or even bigger loss and the loss of sea ice so if you add the 2 effects together it's there are more like 50 percent or 50 percent increase in the right to warming just due to the loss of snow and ice so so it's already the case that if you if you can reverse switch start your s.u.v. In the mid to molecules of c o 2 from the tailpipe then nature or Arctic changes giving you another molecule as well to add to the effect which is due to the retreat of sea on which isn't reflected necessarily in these concentration pathways of the I.C.'s that there are these AC The i.p.c.c. Is very slack in corporate and all these feedbacks they they tend not to do it very well and so they're predict. Tend to be complacent is the word. This this one is I think one of the alarming ones because other feedbacks are things that may or may not happen like the thing last but but is definitely happening because we're losing area of snow and ice you are replacing it with our best scientific fact so even in the i.p.c.c. Report they've said that the Arctic has warmed by 1.9 degrees Celsius in the just in the last 30 years and that's that's reducing the differential between the mid-latitude warmer regions and the arctic cold region which as I understand it is is having an effect on the jet stream It is an effect where it implicates sea ice in Arctic warming very strongly in the person who originated the theory is Jennifer Francis from ruptures university and most people agree with her and the horses they are that what's happening is the Arctic swarming about 4 times as fast as the rest of the planet so the difference in temperature between the arctic air mass and tropical air masses is getting less because the temperature difference is going to the driving force for the jet stream is less so the jet stream slowed down and as it slows down instead of being a straight line that goes into low North-South loads like this like a river flowing over a flat as it tends to meander So you've got to meandering jet stream and with that with the meandering it means that that arctic air is carried down to much lower latitudes than it should get and then in between those regions where tropical there is carried to much higher latitudes so Europe seemed to have escape this but beginning of this year we had this beast of the east with what exactly is this thing that you had. The code there covering you are an extremely warm air in the Arctic the Arctic was 30 degrees warmer while normal in fact it was above 0 at the North Pole and the problem of with all that is these extreme events will keep happening now because that's the way the jet streams become We're not going to escape from either extreme heat or extreme cold events during during the winter it's not whether extreme weather we're getting is extreme climate but the climate has changed and it's changing in an unpredictable way the these events you can't you can't predict them but they have a big impact on mid latitudes in the northern hemisphere and that's exactly the place where most of the world's food is grown so therefore you have. You have revolt. And warfare have either. You find the years in which food prices are very high years in which you have the Arab revolt to the big uprisings in Tunis given all over the Middle East so you mentioned earlier about me thrown in the Arctic and I've heard about people calling about me thinking births sounds very dramatic So what that's about and how quickly it might happen or what the prognosis is for the well it could happen very suddenly and I think it's the greatest single threat that we face but that's not generally recognized by the i.p.c.c. And that the only Jean is is this fact that the sea ice is retreating in summer so what we used to have in the Arctic so very interesting ocean because the center of it is very deep like most oceans it's 4000 meters deep but it's got the widest continental shelves of any ocean and so this whole area around the age of this of the Arctic which is the seas north of Russia basically the Siberian sea of Sea Sea These are very wide shelves and the shelves are incredibly shallow only 50 to 100 meters deep so it's like a swimming pool with with a very shallow end of a very deep right so you've got 5200 meters going out right up into the middle of the Arctic virtually Then suddenly it goes deep you have deep ocean Now the trouble is that the summer retreat of sea ice has taken it back into the center of the Arctic Ocean so that part of the Arctic Ocean still has cover in the summer but the the shelves down the ice has gone off but you know. So we have open water and shallow open water as well but so that means in the summer when you've got in lots of solar radiation that radiation is hitting a shallow layer of water and warming it up. So instead of the the water temperature staying at 0 which is what would happen in the past when we still had ice water temperatures as it has risen to several degrees 3 years ago it was 11 degrees so if you look at 11 degrees that's the temperature of the doth sea. So with that those temperatures in the past you always had 0 or less it has a dramatic effect on the sea bed because the the seabed is like a pressure cooker it's got a layer of permafrost leftover from the last ice age that's holding down several 100 meters of sediments which are full of methane and as soon as you release the pressure. That turns back into me think gas comes out we did an analysis in nature which was based on an estimate that only maybe 8 percent of the methane came out that's still 50 gigatons a year and that would have an impact climatic impact of increasing temperatures worldwide by us point 6 of a degree so I'm sorry to interrupt just if I'm right then that the average c.e.o. To output the moment is about 40000000000 supported gigatons when it's 40000000000 tonnes and me thing is what 23 times more powerful than us. And there could be $50000000000.00 tonnes of that coming up so that will be a one year. That would have an impact at least 20 times the impact of c o 2 so it would be a catastrophe because the temperature would suddenly rise it's not would be rising smoothly but it would rise by even with 8 percent of the of the me thing being released it gives you point 6 of a degree warming straight away so it baffles me that that i.p.c.c. Has not taken account of that in its assessments I know you've been on record as saying that you feel that the prognosis in the i.p.c.c. Report is pretty woefully under played and you know if your parents agreement was 2 degrees maximum in aspire to 1.5 and then this latest i.p.c.c. Reports come out they're saying it's even more important that we now shoot for $1.00 degrees maximum but it seems to me that that looks less and less feasible as every day goes by well I think it never was really feasible even the i.p.c.c. Is an analysis that we've got to reduce emissions to 0 by 2050 and we can't they're not even decreasing at all they're still increasing exponentially the the c o 2 level in the atmosphere is still going up at an unrestrained rate when the signing of the Paris agreement didn't produce a sudden decrease in c o 2 levels or c o 2 emissions they just kept going up the world didn't notice if for instance. The asteroid was spotted heading for the planet then the whole world would mobilize to to do something about it and can launch some giant mass of nuclear weapons to try and divert it we wouldn't just sit there supine them let it hit us but because climate change which is going to be just as destructive it's going to make human life impossible but because it will take decades to happen everybody from dated. You can sort of think oh I don't need to do anything there are do something sometime in the future it's a natural human reaction you really need to face up to this need for 1.5 or 2 degrees restriction on warming you have to completely trash immediately all fossil fuel power strategy or you have to stop drilling for oil stop digging coal get rid of fossil fuel power stations replace them with solar wind and nuclear immediately at a huge cost and people would object to paying that cost stop people from driving big cars and make it necessary to have an electric car if you're going to have a car. Change people's lives to such an extent that people wouldn't tolerate it if there isn't an immediate threat if there isn't that asteroid heading for us they were doing so it won't get done and that's my fear it's not a fear I think it's particularly we won't see in the reduction in carbon emissions far from reducing them to 0 it will shoot up to the point where we can't get it back down. And likely I think p.c.c. Say if we don't start to seriously reduce emissions within the next 2 years we would never get them down to a level that will save us or how to recognize that the biggest issue I think we have is getting the message you put forward in a very very easy to understand way but I've learned listen to a lot of really technical presentations that you know how to really I'm not restricted Garm fairly intelligent but I've got to really try hard to understand and actually even reading the i.p.c.c. Report why use one word when 53 will do that it's a very verbose report and it's almost an exercise in demonstrating one's vocabulary Yeah expertise rather than trying to get a message across in words of one syllable. Part of the issue and I mean I think that's really that I've always felt that in science that if you can understand the concept you can get it across to an intelligent layman. It ought to be possible to explain any concept in science if you can't explain it then it's probably wrong. Or made a mistake because. You can't get something across in the course that's scientists don't often don't like that because they like to be able to maintain the mystique rather than make saying something that's that everybody can understand because when everybody understands it everybody will say Oh we always do that. Everybody's saying about the Arctic we always knew that the ice was going to disappear in fact everybody said Miss not go disappear. Is that true. So you're just back from Italy the meeting was called by the papal Pontifical Academy of Sciences that. Science group and by the Italian government. See it are you and you were talking about the global sea level rise is obviously not an insignificant factor in global warming or what's the prognosis for with the various temperature rises that we are likely to go well the prognosis as as in most things seems to be acceleration all the bad things like celebrating and the sea level rise is again one of those bad things it's accelerating and it's been on the play The p.c.c. . Again you can see why. You can see the cowardly political reasons because if you under predict how much sea level is going to rise then. The some lethal policy makers and the policy makers can take a lower value for the sea level rise rate so they don't have to spend so much on raising heights of flood defenses so it's really nasty and evil but you can see the temptation for the the people who see the i.p.c.c. Reports that's that's government people have an important after the scientists have said what they want to say. The summary goes to policymakers is overseen by politicians and they tend to weaken the predictions so that the worst case of this was was sea level rise and the i.p.c.c. Was predicting in 2007 something like 30 centimeters at sea level rise by the end of the century so that went out and policymakers they thought oh great we don't have to do that much we can just recites a flood defenses why. But then. The last assessment they took out of the fact that the Greenland ice sheet and Antarctic ice sheet a melting at an accelerated rate and we now know how fast they're melting because as a satellite they are which based a gravity very satellite which measures how much stuff they result in the thicket so as the Greenland ice sheet shrinks it's possible to exactly map how much ice there is left and so that's called the grace of it is wonderful thing we now know that that Greenland is losing mass at about 300 cubic kilometers a year and Antarctica is starting to lose mass in some to about 100 and that's greater than any other source of of water going into the ocean all the other grasses in the world. Retreating in most of them are going and warming of the ocean doesn't do that much it's Greenland and Antarctica that are now the drivers of sea level rise and the more we measure processes in Greenland the more we conclude that sea level is rising in that celebrated way because of the melt of the green and ice sheet is accelerating so that the warming of Greenland giving accelerated loss of ice from the surface in the summer gives you accelerated the position of fresh water into the ocean gives you accelerated sea level rise and so it's again a feedback loop and it's not easy to get around it and many people think well if we can deal with global warming and stop them going to warming then that stops the level rise as well but it doesn't the sea level rise is partly based because you're dealing with very thick ice sheets there's a fly wheel effect going on that once the melt of Greenland gets going it doesn't matter if we stop global warming. It will take a long time before the melt of Greenland stops happening the melt of Antarctica so the the sea level accelerating sea level rise will keep on going even if we deal with air temperatures and the problems there are of course a loss of 6 coastal cities because this 30 centimeters has already gone to a meter and there are a lot of a lot of glaciologists think it will go to $23.00 or 4 meters and the sea level rise like $2100.00 or so about $2100.00 so that would be pretty catastrophic we lose a lot of coastal cities completely and again because sea level is global it's not regional you're not going to save one place like Miami is trying to save itself by pumping water out to sea which is a bit like kink. So I also presume that higher sea level is a better global average across the entire planet when it surges where you've got more energy anyway and or it can start ripping it up presumably you've got a bunch more water to surge with so those surges across cities are going to be a whole lot more dramatic as well in a very much think that that's going to be the worst effect and we there was a lot of studies done on storm surges after $953.00 floods in the Netherlands and Britain and. I know about that because 1st of all I was alarmed. And secondly my grandparents' house was flooded really. When you look at the sea level rise associated with that it was a storm surge in the North Sea with that very strong northerly wind just piling water up against into the Straits of Dover at a time when it was high tide and so the water just spilled over and that that kind of thing keeps happening but if it's happening on the basis of a higher average. Level then everything is worse so the only way to stop things being worse is to raise the heights of sea walls around the entire planet to the same amount as the the rising sea level so that's why it's very important that we get the rising sea level right get the predictions right because that's how much we've got to raise the wall that we build one for having continuous So we I think the planning for London is quite good they've got contingency plans for building another Thames barrier downstream and and after I talked to the person that I went to a meeting in China they're all about with the Chinese government sciences we have a British delegation including the guy who's responsible for the Thames barrier and the Chinese delegation that was really worried because they were using low values for sea level rise and places like Shanghai which is Vol of canals they didn't know how much they had to raise the heights of coming towards even Britain isn't Ok and certainly a place that hasn't got in the sea walls like Bangladesh is in a terrible state is poor everybody was I think 20000000 people live within 22 meters of sea level rise sea level rises and and also you get storm surges in the Bay of Bengal with with. Driving water up into the head of the bay you get a storm surge if you have a higher sea level you get more flooding so you get catastrophic floods you already do in. Coastline and people can't afford to retreat because there's another 20000000 people living here as I say clear off and then those. They can't raise the heights of sea defenses so they just die and that's the frequency of these cut catastrophic events it's going to go up and that's probably be the main immediate effect of sea level rise is kind. The increase of deaths in poor countries because of storm surges if and then loss I went economically that it's going to be loss of cities in in rich countries because you can't maintain that against against a sea level rise like New Orleans or what every that these cities will be have to be about and. That was Professor Peter widens c.i.i. Scientist and director are these Scott Paul Institute in Cambridge and turn 1992 and professor after all and physics and thanks to Dave Barlow us for allowing me to use his interview with Peter Woden's for radio you can see a longer version on Dave's You Tube channel just have a think he posted in late November 28th teen you can hear this program again for free on t u c radio's website t u c radio dot org My name is my. Thank you for listening hey. Good morning this is the emanation with you I and to use the radio went off just dismiss a judge early I was in the office. Talking to Nico who is Simon's assistant I spoke with Simon and I'm speaking with I'm speaking to the people who are at 88 point one because everybody else is not listening but you are listening to k m u e Eureka 88 point one f.m. An h.d. One there and activist Starhawk that Starhawk in sunshine on the next pagan spiritual perspective this Sunday morning at 930 only on k. Muti.