With your lips was washed by joining a sergeant 20063 years after Bush and Cheney commanding the illegal catastrophic war against Iraq in 2003 Julian is a computer genius he invented a way for publishers like Wiki Leaks to receive truth telling information anonymously the 1st bombshell he published in 2006 was the Iraq war logs he got them from whistleblower Chelsea Manning who was then in the military they showed a video of American soldiers in a helicopter committing a war crime by gunning down and executing a number of Iraqi civilians to Reuters journalists and several children then they chuckled about it the photo of the murders is shown on the book's cover this week furnished by Chelsea Manning was devastating to the United States other whistleblower Leaks followed the government became relentless in trying to close down Wiki Leaks Margaret culture is a long time civil rights attorney in New York City track Ali is a British social scholar and author we are speaking to him in London Margaret is in our New York City studio Tarak and Margaret welcome back to Law and Disorder Thank you. Could be with you again Julie. Imprisoned in London waiting to be extradited to Virginia for trial Margaret we want to talk about what the u.s. Government is alleging he did you chose to print the indictment in your book and you've done criminal defense work your whole life talk about the indictment and then if you will explain the espionage. 17 count indictment charges under the Espionage Act and one charge based on the Computer Fraud and the charge the indictment itself. The 1st Amendment. The 1st Amendment you know free speech and the only we're limits on that is a clear and present danger and what we have here is an alternative universe which suddenly says that it's not free speech. Now you can't have an espionage charge against a journalist or a publisher because that. Limiting speech so the high are. Illegal and a violation of the 1st Amendment. That's the 1st step. Even under the Espionage Act the charge of conspiracy. Fails because Julian was not conspiring with. Manning. Receiving information from Chelsea Manning and therefore not a conspiracy if you look at the indictment itself and read getting about the charges and read the fact pattern comes from an alternative universe every fact pattern is a 1st Amendment protected activity Julian for example speaks at an open forum and says send me whatever you want to me now that only a protected activity or Julian publish. The. That list is not by Julian but by human rights attorneys all over the world who get together in a room and say what we want and. Of putting that. Out so he's asking for it and asking for it makes it outside of the normal 1st Amendment protections so the whole. The entire indictment. Is outrageous political charge violates the 1st Amendment and it has really nothing to do with the laws of the United States which have developed freely around the 1st Amendment and clearly have said that the only exception to the 1st Amendment is a clear and present danger Margaret what. Legal situation. He is currently denied bail on the espionage charge and that is the only thing that is holding him in a maximum security prison under the under terrible circumstances. Tariq. And Secretary of State. But rather he was running a quote. My old student is going to go. Putting remark fight with. Somebody a trip sanity I mean I honestly believe that. He knows it's a lie but in saying it but if he actually believes the stuff he needs urgent medical attention and because it's obvious to everyone what Julian is what he did and why he's being punished I mean you know when a u.s. Army Private h.-o. The seed then Bradley Manning leaked hundreds of thousands of secret government documents relating to the wars in Iraq and of on his phone including details and exposing the crimes committed by the United States they were immediately counterattacked by the right and by supporters of the system was to Manning became enemy number one. He had to be punished and the demands arose even then very soon after that we published these documents that you again should be extradited and dealt with in the United States that's only did he publish the documents and then we keenly exposure's them of many of them published simultaneously by the Guardian in London the New York Times in New York by aides for in a grid and not a Republican in a truly liberal news papers published it so are they going to be challenged to this when it's not why not why don't the junior and he's me just made them available so if the crime is publishing these things. Maybe I really want it in prison in fact no one should be in prison for men professed to flee. Running and intelligence. Honestly is crazy even the most people in charge in the United States find it difficult to see the what the evidence is if in fact they've got any evidence at all even when you have to fake some never. Been hit. With Margaret here in New York and with our colleague in London they've editor of the just published book In Defense of Julian Assange which you can get it or books to have. United States launched Operation Iraqi Liberation in 2003 and in 2010 we released the Iraq war logs and the Afghanistan war and watched what was significant. Well what the well known for being cruel you know what was going on in Iraq why it should be invaded including archive material which the world which was killing over Iraq. In their right. We saw any copter attack knocking out. The destruction of an Iraq family simply because there are 8 on the road for a bit of fun and it brought home the reality troops of. Not being revealed at that time by the mainstream media so it did create a. Great deal of anger because lots of people on fortunately have time to believe Western propaganda was caught and the revelation of why the war was really being over to defend and protect us a good many in the region to recall the knife Iraq. And the overtures being inflicted on the Iraq people. Create a storm and that is what predicted we. Get to where they will remain you know as proof. For fared. Well might be an armed force and probably. A low order to bring the truth well that's what they did. That's why he's not in for good. Margaret can you talk about Julian invented a way for whistleblowers to release information anonymously. Joining developed a program where people who had information that they wanted to get to him could send him the information and remain totally anonymous and the really no way for Julian. You know or anybody else to know that that is who sent that information and that was critically important because it protected the whistleblower and there was no this was the 1st. Program of this sort that totally protected the whistleblower subsequent to that there were some other programs added but they haven't worked as well and I'm sure for that in French and Julian didn't in him or himself into the government you know I'm sure what to. Expose the Democratic National Committee and machinations against Bernie Sanders in favor of the recall I think. True to. Its exposure of the Clinton e-mails played a big part in liberal critics but you. Still true refusal by most liberal mainstream liberals to defensive and I think a great little doubt that it will. Expose. That inspired Edwards float. A private time live at the n.s.a. To expose Cleek. Bringing them of illegal surveillance of you with them and or think looting. Life like the German chancellor Angela Merkel still think. Of what they were to which was not trivial by we. Are actually probably inspired Edward Snowden to do what was required I mean Edward had no right of background whatsoever. Up angered by what he found out when ink. And their paper. Caps defying the Senate and think they did not conduct illegal surveillance of us because of a total lie. Knew it took both Snowden and other whistle blowers in different parts of the world and moved whistleblowers to come will without any doubt firefight that and I think our defense will. Be wrong to want obviously in the American court. If it's. Charges but the real reason for the extradition. Of Barrett. And they want to live in the park to frighten people think don't do it if you do it remember what we did to attach to come to your question I haven't been right for you know I love before he went to prison. And I asked him the following I said anything new think that could stop the extradition I mean we'll do whatever we can any of you know anything they're constructive Labor government led by Jeremy . This will might or might not happen but be like me some 12. 1000000 members of your me. Have that have depended Julia and have bet that they will look at the shoe wreck if they come to power December so I think Julian is right that is the only interesting way now the judge appointed to try Julian probably extradition just stop a lot. Of well known security charges I charge you for proof by the security service for trying to prove a very. Well in the arms trade they're totally linked up to very have. The Fairy upright like are beating up a judge the British judicial will. Be too surprised by that. Bearly question of whether we can stop it a pinstripe have to come out for exploitation proof of. Prejudice is very interesting just the other Gani she released on bail for people who are accused of murder there was an extradition aspect to India and obviously not even people banging and strange them even though they were charged with murder while on the other hand Julian who was not charged with anything violent and only providing information. Without bail so that's kind of you know really significant in terms of her. Margaret why did the Obama administration not indict Julian after his administration indicted. And that was more than all the prior presidents combined and now Trump including Julian. Julian's situation was different he was not a hacker he's not a whistleblower he is a publisher and a journalist and this is the 1st time that a publisher has been charged under the Espionage Act And I think the Obama administration saw that that wasn't a right thing to do because that was fraudulent of the 1st Amendment I'd like to ask both of you. Here is it an exaggeration to claim that what's at stake. There's no question that the future of investigative journalism is at stake in a journalist cannot seek out information it journalist cannot function a journalist is an investigator and what accusation a can't be an investigator you can even receive this information without doing anything in the near publishing outing and the mere conversation about it with our patient to charge you with espionage violations which is outrageous and if if you're a journalist and this is what your future is about then you're really in trouble and also the future of the liberty of this country is at stake because if we can't reveal what the powerful people in this country are carrying on then we then we have no control and there's no way of stopping this and will head on to fascism I think it's going. To be a. Being. Tricked governance allows trying to. Speak. The Guardian and being you. Publishing Wiki Leaks and then publishing Edward Snowden revelations is not what they have done themselves because in most cases including to a certain extent in the liberal press. Days no to the special investigation they NEEMO patiently and they do it could rain we so they themselves have been very dependent on one week usually. Doesn't claim to be a bit more impressed in fact if they were defending it with something in fact they're not depending on the tone and the news today that the Swedish government has now stopped investigating those charges which many of. The time was not credible link to rape. Because we could not drop the. What we call the time was correct that he was being set up and. In defense of truly as. A collection of right a number of us take you through what is being done to Julian systematically. The freedom of the campaign. Legal. But the construction job Margaret. I'm completely. Rebuilt it has some impact to be on Margaret can you put Julian in the perspective of. Recently accelerated decline of the rule of law and democracy back during the Vietnam War as you know the Supreme Court allowed publication of the Pentagon Papers could overthrow that precedent. Well we would think not except that the judges in this country have been so changed by this administration that we don't know what to expect there was a big effort to prevent the Pentagon Papers from coming out when it was no easy task there was an injunction against the production of those papers and clearly those papers just like the papers that Jordan has put out were protected by the 1st Amendment and clearly I just want to add that the effort to get the Pentagon Papers took the reporters a tremendous amount of it was no easy task they were involved in getting that material before probably much more so than Julian today was involved the attorney for the Pentagon Papers for the New York Times at the time of the Pentagon Papers was James good dale and commented on the book In Defense of joining us and the charge against him for conspiring with a source is the most dangerous I can think of with respect to the 1st Amendment in all my years representing media organizations of every staff Tariq let me ask you this and Margaret about your comment on this was well what would you say that ultimately considering how this case arose that imperialism is incompatible with the rule of law and democracy. Well clearly the mall which has been like a book we are witnessing now. Capitalism and it. Being like states in particular but also increasingly make I read your op is creating a situation where the mainstream media largely monolithic there is very little. More pick right up well apart from it. Like government. Where there are. Large on. Most buried in the unit. With the government of the day has been getting worked in well over the last 20. I think that is a huge problem which we've only to. Sort of fight back because it now a lot of talk about censoring the internet which some countries already do like Iran right now for instance they're watching what governments do. Permanent attempts. To. Lie. And to not talk monopolize. Release only when they think. Margaret if you want to add to that you know I would like to read a paragraph from the book. A paragraph by Margaret Kimberly and I think that some of the season fantastic and I'm so pleased with them Margaret Kimberly beautiful ass and I just want to be one paragraph from it what little is left of American democracy depends upon the existence of the free and independent press Julian Assange should be defended for that reason he must be defended precisely because the ruling elite want to lock him up his willingness. Or looks like or how trade agreements deprive millions of people of their rights makes him an ally not just of the person but is an ally of the principles of the narra can claim to what they care about what kind of importance Julian standing in Great Britain and in the USA Tell me could you 1st talk about Britain. Campaign largely left. Activists you know we are but. Any support within the media at all it is not covered. The liberal press ignore our right wing press wrong to be extradited in pretty clued top end of the right wing media like the economy so it is really very much a minority campaign but you know that after a break then by good people John Pilger Geoffrey Robertson and many people who contributed to our book we had a number of demonstrations in favor of. One outside the prison and one outside the British papers and the one outside biomarkers well large Roger Waters. Popular. But we operate in a very difficult environment as far as you have to. Go the rape allegations broke young people for him completely I mean it was believed deliberately overnight you know cause great so this focus part of building up some support for him again and hopefully people will read they would realise what's take what we do what. The limit and Margaret on the United States I think it's quite similar to Britain but I think that we're beginning to have a right change in terms of journalists in this country beginning to understand the threat posed to them and just I think that the point where we are going to be. Successful and will perhaps lead to a greater movement in this country will be the national security journalists who will reach out and talk about this in the public in the media in the mass media because right now Julian does not reach the mass media he's on Twitter but he doesn't get beyond that so I think once this information can get out and probably. Hopefully through the journalists then we'll have a base of support that we can build on we're speaking with attorney Margaret consular here in New York and Tariq Ali the historian social activist in London we're coming down to the end of our allotted time unfortunately but I just want to repeat that we're talking about the book In Defense of Julian Assange just came out or books or our books or books it's how you can get it Julian wrote a letter to Gordon dramatic from his prison cell in London and May 13th of this year Julian wrote I'm unbroken literally surrounded by murderers but the days when I could read him speak an organized to defend myself my ideas and my people are over and so I am free everyone else must take my place I am defenseless and I am counting on you and others of good character to save my life truth ultimately is all we have Margaret Tarik what can we do to help Julia Well I think beginning to get support for him is going to be very helpful and beginning to explain to people and let them understand that the character assassination that has gone on again and we were tracking from what they government was doing it was not really the way it proceeded in the way it blew up and the way it happened was not a normal hatred that envelop people just don't hate on that level simply because someone does something that they don't like so it's definitely government orchestrated and I think the book will help explain to people that it was more of an action to take away from the reality of what the situation is and how important Julian's work. Great strength was no point in repeating. I want to urge people. To be profoundly for your good work and putting it together and for the brilliant introduction that you wrote. Much for. Many of. Us history social justice played many roles including inspiring activists fighting police repression during the civil rights movement in his new book Power author Brad Schreiber Chronicles. Politically conscious. Woody Guthrie Joan Baez Bob Marley even the. Largely with folk music social justice music. A range from rap heavy metal reggae and. Schreiber not only shines a spotlight on musicians different approaches from soulful ballads to expressions of anger but he also tells stories behind the public figures who have brought this music into our lives. In his animation of long time favorites many of whom overcame obstacles in bringing their messages of social justice to the recording industry and to the airwaves. Joining us today is award winning author journalist and screenwriter Brad Schreiber his previous books include Death in Paradise becoming Jimi Hendrix and revolutions and he's received fellowships and awards from the National Press Foundation the Edward Albi foundation the International Book Awards independent publisher Book Awards and the Los Angeles Press Club Brad welcome to Law and Disorder thank you very much a great pleasure to talk with both of you Brad before we get into the book which is wonderful Are you at musicians and how did you become interested in the topic of music and social. Well I think it's reflected Heidi in my last 2 books of becoming Jimi Hendrix which I wrote from the research of Hendrix historian Steve Roby in 2010 was the 1st book to look at his early life and talk about poverty growing up in Seattle being in the military a learning rhythm and blues in Nashville and a lot of other aspects that shaped who Jimmy became so I really got to feel like I knew who he was at the core and then 3 years ago I wrote revolutions and which is the 1st book to explain how under Governor Ronald Reagan and the Symbionese Liberation Army which kidnapped her. Was actually a construct that was using a black prisoner as a leader of a. Left wing group in order to undercut the Black Panthers and the New Left in California and it was devastatingly effective So there you have it music and politics in the last 2 books and now we're dealing with a blend of the 2 in music is power. About the early roots of political music in the United. Well I felt that you had to start with Joe Hill and and then move on to Woody Guthrie and of course Woody Guthrie connect directly to Pete Seeger's So I said these 3 guys have to sort of be the beginning when unionizing and looking for more respect for American laborers was the guiding topic and of course from there that you almost naturally move into you know Bob Dylan and Joan Baez but even though the cover of music is power is an old Haight Ashbury kind of design this book really covers every genre of music including Comedy and metal and hip hop and pinpoints the songs that really did for the discussion about social justice in almost every genre of music you can think. Brad let me ask you about Phil Ochs he traveled on to Mississippi to listen to black civil rights activists and he also vision poor white coal miners and strike in Kentucky talk about ocean he's performing at the 968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago. Michael I was very fortunate point in this book because I got to know people who were either the thought jacks or who knew the subject so Phil Ochs is one of those people I worked at k.c. R.w. The n.p.r. Station in Santa Monica when Michael had his archives show and I talk quite a bit with him about Phil and then this book is dedicated to Paul Krassner who passed away unfortunately recently he also gave me a lot of insight into Phil who. Sang with you know all the tricks of Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin you know in Chicago during the convention and it's understandable that Phil's next album had his own gravestone and his birth year and he said that his death here was 1968 in Chicago many people often talk about when did the sixty's officially end it was when Charles Manson and his followers killed people no I agree with Phil Ochs the death of the sixty's is the assassinations of Robert f. Kennedy Martin Luther King and the failure of the Democratic Party in 1968 to nominate an anti-war strong anti-war candidate and instead came up with Hubert Humphrey who of cough lost to Richard Nixon so Oakes is one of those people whose body of work was phenomenal and dealt with every socio political topic you could think of. Brad you quote civil rights activist Julian Bond on the influence of black church songs which often use the words overcome. Said the 1st time you heard we shall overcome it the organizing committee was at the organizing committee talk about the meaning in particular of that song. I think I think that this is really ironic because when you think of the black church and got own use ik influencing civil rights type songs one of the great ironies is Julian Bond the great leader from Georgia who by the way ran for president the United States and was far ahead of his time he could have been in a more liberal America of the Barack Obama the 1960 s. That had been that. He would have been much better than that a brilliant guy and he he talked about guy caught on the organizer who had adapted the idea of our overcoming to We Shall Overcome as a guy he thought was the 3rd for blonde hair and he seemed completely out of place in these organizing meetings and yet it was Guy current one who came up with that song that became one of the many songs of the civil rights movement adopted one of the great ironies I think in music is power bread Let's turn to Joan Baez for a minute you write how American servicemen in Vietnam asked her to sing her biggest hit The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down that was written by Robbie Robertson the band showing the Confederacy suffering in greed during what was then referred to as a war between the states. Influence on social justice. I try not to be judgement all in music is power there is some artists who did one important socio political song but in Jones' case it was an entire career is kind of astounding You know she's there with Mario Savio at Berkeley during the beginning of the Free Speech Movement asking people to protest but not to be violent. She's there at the Alameda County induction center being spit upon by. People going to Vietnam obviously she goes to New York during one of the were bombing campaigns of the United States and Joan Baez you know she just celebrated 75th birthday she has spent her entire life committed to social justice even just a couple years ago she did a song that was anti Trump and hilarious so she is she's in a special place she's in a pantheon of musicians and composers dedicated to social justice. Talk to the challenges of getting socially conscious music recorded released and marketed briefly can you tell us about Lesley Gore and Jenna. Yeah I love writing the chapter of Leslie and Janet because even though the 70s is credited with the birth of the women's movement really if you dig down deep into music you find that the nascent women's movement really started almost as a fluke because literally Gore was tired of singing about crying because Johnny broke her heart and went to songwriters came to her with You Don't Own Me She was so excited that she went to a producer who was a guy you may have heard of named Quincy Jones and she said I want this to be my next song and he saw it and he fought for it and needless to say it was the 1st song that talked about equality for women in relationships and it was $164.00 so that's interesting because the free dance The Feminine Mystique has come out and the 1st you know American nonfiction book to suggest you know what maybe women have a role in society beyond just being mothers and housewives so that was that was it for Leslie but it was a it was it had a huge impact and of course Janet's Iannucci 16 years old when she writes Society's Child and talked about a white girl and black boy who fall in love and sadly when she was performing that in some clubs people would screen epithets that or use the n. Word and yet it had a huge impact on itself so I think Janice and Leslie are very special women in terms. Of this musical movement of the book Fred I wanted to ask you about your he went to Harvard dropped out and he was told there you write by a professor who said you can't change the world you can only analyze it well. That's an ironic thing to talk about Pete Seeger's relationship with the Red Scare and the group that he was in the Weavers. Well with all due respect to his professor at Harvard I disagree with that it's not turning the world upside down through your art but it's it's changing consciousness and that's really where it starts the Red Scare ruined the career of p.c. Or in the Weavers and of course he was blacklisted for its association with groups that were identified as being communist It took the Smothers Brothers Michael of all people to break the blacklist against Pete Seeger performing I will I'm old enough to remember watching the broadcast when Pete Seeger performed waist deep in the Big Muddy a stance of Lee a song about army men on maneuvers in Louisiana following their leader who is leading them into a river that is flown least some urging them to their deaths. And of course in the song Pete Seeger refers to the big fool the big fool says to push on and it's a clear shot across the bow at Lyndon Johnson Well just to show you how different times were 75000 letters come in to c.b.s. Protesting Pete Seeger and you know his performance of waist deep in the Big Muddy you know now you know we have we have absolutely no civility in political discourse speaker testified before the House Un-American Activities Committee and he was hauled in front of them and he was asked if he ever sang for communist audience and he replied I've sung for Americans of every political persuasion I'm proud of that no never refused to sing for an audience for matter what religion or color of their skin or situational life and the next year the House of Representatives found guilty of 10 counts of contempt of Congress and the sentence was eventually overturned by a court of appeals on a technicality but Pete Seeger was courageous he didn't take the 5th the memory took the 1st amendment he said I got a right to do what I'm doing and you guys you want to hear me sing a song I'd be glad to sing a song for you remember that he's very much like Joan Baez in my opinion it was a lifelong commitment it wasn't just you know what happened in Motown they had you know socially conscious psychedelia you know for a brief while Norman Whitfield as producer going oh wow you know this socially conscious stuff like ball of confusion we got to try this out and Joan and Pete literally their entire lives their professional lives committed to change you know Pete Seeger he lived in Beacon in upstate New York and yet this beautiful house he could easily have retired No he's going to start being an activist to clean. The water of the Hudson River that's the kind of guy people figure was true to his last breath he was trying to make the world better bred in your chapter on punk bands like Green Day and The Sex Pistols you know to major record chains refused to carry the Sex Pistols single God Save the Queen and b.b.c. Band Death you write that quote the pistols often transcended the boundaries of taste it can be argued that expressing their rage at an unbalanced social system. Irrespective of refinement musicianship or respectability their audience get their message that is a fantastic question and let me 1st say that a lot of people think that Green Day is a hard rock band with kind of punk overtones rather than purely punk. Let me just say very quickly about them before moving on to the pistols that Green Day I believe it's had a huge cultural impact because of the musical version of American Idiot what they did in essence with that music or and condemning the Iraq war is connecting older social activists who protested the Vietnam War to a continuum of activism and social consciousness and of course American Idiot reached a lot of young people who weren't political so they go to see the music of Green Day and they start thinking about what is the pattern of America at War So I think you know Green Day in America it's very important. Your question about the Sex Pistols is one that really fascinates me as a matter of fact Heidi because to a great degree I'm saying in music is power that the Sex Pistols weren't so much a an act of his band they were they were almost part of the social movement that included music McLaren their manager. I quote him in music is power as going I don't care whether they can play music he just loved the outrageousness of their performance and if they got arrested all the better the fact is that the Sex Pistols Well not a great music band should English society in which there was incredible unfairness between the working class the unemployed youth and of course you know the upper classes so shocking English society by making fun of the queen you could say is nihilism but I don't think it is just nihilism I think it's a way of saying we we drop out of your society because there's no place for us anyway and literally people were dressed as punks were being beaten on the streets of London American punk music was not a copycat because that sounds derogatory but it certainly didn't have the social impact that it did in the u.k. . Now switching John here for a minute let's talk about Bob Marley's relevance social just. Got death threats from the Jamaican Labor Party Why was that and why Peter Gabriel in the same chapter with Marlee. Well I guess you could say that they're both in the same chapter news is power because they're both internationalists in terms of their messages I'm very lucky in that I live here in Los Angeles and I know Roger Stephens who is probably the before most mind Bob Marley and his book. So many things to say really captures Marley's live and his activism and it's fascinating because in Jamaica Marley found himself caught between the Jamaican Labor Party and the Aga by the way he had connections to the American CIA and Madras. Yeah yeah yeah that's exactly right Michael on the walls of Trench Town people would write Edwards a ga instead of a Ga So there was the battle between America's fear. Jamaican society you know being run by Michael Manley who was obviously much more progressive and the candidate they wanted. And both sides used gang warfare to try and control what was going on in Kingston and Bob Marley you'll read in the book music is power that he took a bullet there was an attempt on his life and he still went on performing and committed to freedom and social justice and that neath the age but not only went worldwide it wasn't just in Jamaica. To my mind Peter Gabriel is sort of the same kind of worldwide ambassador he became that especially with his song Biko about Stephen Biko the South African activist who was murdered in a jail cell but if you look into the kind of art rock origins of Genesis where Peter Gabriel started you see that he has an incredible array of songs that are about social justice get him out by Friday is a song about aged pensioners being moved out of their homes in England. The battle of Epping Forest is a fantastic it and one of the funniest so shal just the songs in the book about 2 rival gangs killing each other in the woods the area of London in order to have control you know Gabriel wrote about in a phenomenal variety of social issues and both he and. In Jamaica Bob Marley phenomenal ambassadors of social justice and music in 2000. The man of peace award I met Nobel Peace laureate convening in Rome I had known at the end he's so modest that the amazing thing about him he doesn't talk about it all obviously his tours for Amnesty International were incredibly successful and expanded awareness of that organization it's phenomenal because this is a guy who can write or you can write about art Bremmer and family snapshot Arthur Brenner being the assassin of George Wallace and then he can write like a door and be hit like sledge hammer he's incredibly gifted and he also expanded the power of music you know bringing in. No Afro Cubin kind of music he's obviously in Womad and that festival is expanded the consciousness of other musical artists around the world I can't say enough about what he's done Fred we just have a few minutes remaining and there's so much last from the Dixie Chicks to Frank Zappa we wanted to ask you about your chapter on rap music where you talk about impediments for black musicians who are critical of American society how do you do white record executives if you rap. Black labels to take the lead in getting the songs out Oh I think it was in the very beginning absolutely before rap was called If pop the you know everybody credits the South Bronx with you know the origins of rap music but now of course it's it's pervasive and it's culturally accepted everywhere but not politically conscious rap I talk about Gil Scott Heron whose great poetry preceded street poetry and the popularity of hip hop and and then I of course include you know we're not sure Flash and Public Enemy and end up in the songs that they wrote that were socially conscious and extremely important but that that music form is now a worldwide phenomenon I think I what I try to say in music is power is let's go back to guilt Scott Aaron let's go back to the Revolution Will Not Be Televised and look at some of the fantastic poetry that was socially conscious and include that and issue of hip hop or rap music today. It's really interesting talking with you you know when I started reading your book it starts off with Joe Hill. Sr and what he just read and I was thinking you know what songs do they do that I really love and. Like preacher in slave Joe. You know mocking these religious fundamentalists who try to take over the I w. W. And yes and no matter of fact very few American artists have mocked anything about religious hypocrisy since that 19 Levin Michael Frank who I was fortunate enough to work with for 6 months and got to know very well would talk about the religious fundamentalism as well as the p.m.r.c. The Parents Music Resource Center which was advocating censorship of music lyrics. I not only greatly admire all the music that he did but also the fact that he put his money where its mouth is and he put up tens of thousands of dollars of 1900 dollars to make people aware that the government was trying to censor music where are the other songs and I thought of when I was reading your 1st couple chapters was there any Forever which I 1st learned on a weaver's album talkie Union and then a beautiful song of Woody Guthrie's de Port and I think you know if I had to choose between all the various lines they are talking about I think that that Woody Guthrie song deportees which is so relevant. Be my favorite Yeah yeah the subtitle my call not being you know plane wreck at Los Gatos 1948 air crash. Mexicans who were being deported and you know got 3 was irate because they didn't even list very names in the papers they were just deportees nameless entities and what's going on under the trumpet ministration I mean this will be historic the lack of compassion in this administration court people from another country this will be a low point compared to what was going on when Woody Guthrie was was writing songs like Joe Rainey and of course the port the yeah exactly Steven Miller the immigration guru for Trump somebody wrote that he got the soul of a map see and that's for sure I think we have a chance we will play some of the Woody Guthrie song. You had something well we are running out of time and I was interested in the Frank Zappa chapter in a class of his own. I think our listeners are going to have to get your wonderful book to learn. Early Years of government agencies and note that his song more trouble every day was an indictment of the 1965 watts race riots so there's so much more in the book that we weren't able to get to Brad but it's a wonderful wonderful book that anyone interested in music and or social justice should read I believe in closing you guys that. We can inspire people who are otherwise disgusted with politics by news it because music psychologically impact people in a way that political speech making never can and. You know and I'm trying to encourage not only people to listen to politically conscious music but to inspire more artists to occasionally use the power that they have to move people to action to better the world it's a phenomenal force and it starts least for now if I farm aid and why they didn't in the u.k. The secret policeman music is a motivating force for changing the ills of the world the books music power popular songs social justice and the will to change by Brad Schreiber Brad would love to have you won again we understand you're working on a new book and we want to be among the 1st to talk to you about that oh that the great I really enjoyed it and I really appreciate what you guys do regarding social justice so thank you very much thank you thank you thank you. If you have any comments or questions about this segment or any others please visit us at long disorder dot org That's the longest order dot org. Yes. Programming on take a r.n. 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I hope you'll visit our Facebook page and be sure to like us while you're there tell us where you tune in from You can also follow us on and check us out of variations we kick off the show today with a track from Brian. Jazz variation.