Unmount 8.5 f.m. . Coming up next on Thomas Jefferson I know these trips are very difficult Verisign didn't want to just turn around today he just come up on a plane go back to Paris but back then that was an ordeal so he and Adams decided to make the most of it they had a little month long vacation in the home counties of England they went to many of the of the great gardens of England and Jefferson took a long wait lease for Com gardens and made marginal notes and were just fascinated because Jefferson loved landscape gardening anyway and he wanted to create better landscape gardening a model cello when he got back and he loved the idea of man's connection with nature creating order but not too much order and so he and Adams did that Adams was a little bit bored with that he said it's way too soon to be talking about landscape gardening in America but they also went to Stratford and they were visited Shakespeare's Truman that his boyhood home and they even chipped a little piece of wood off the chairlift. Good day citizens and welcome to one would Jefferson do our weekly opportunity to discuss current American events with President Thomas Jefferson who is seated across from me now good days you Mr President good day to you so the sister president and the parties have made their choices and I thought perhaps we could get a little bit of perspective on how this all works my understanding is that George Washington ran without any opposition but after he decided he wasn't going to run for a 3rd term that's when the 2 party system sort of had its germination correct that overstates perhaps a little. Washington was unanimously chosen and he ran unopposed. By the time he left office after 2 terms of his popularity had eroded and there was a growing opposition movement that felt that he and the people around him especially Colonel Hamilton were betraying the revolution and turning us into a sort of quite. And so this opposition group. Around $796.00 into something like an opposition party it became the Republican Party the Federalist the party of Washington and. How often and by the time I was elected in 1800 we really had the beginnings of what would become a 2 party system. One of the did not want that to happen. Party. Called or. Opt or likely to destroy any chance we had that a true republic and everyone was reluctant to party system begin to emerge and secondly . Small role I suppose in the creation of the opposition party because I was secretary of state for George Washington for 3 years and. With his administration a whole range of issues. The economy foreign policy. And I was. As secretary of state because I couldn't agree to many of the decisions that Mr Hamilton was pushing. And so that helps my closest friend James to create the 1st true opposition party the Republicans back to we're faced with today. And taken quite a beating in the past. But my understanding is that when the men who are federal government. Perplexed with this idea. We didn't really I was course I was in Europe but the people not in Philadelphia. Weren't really certain what a president should be we didn't want to monarch we knew that. But we need. Some administrator at one point there was a proposal for a plural administration co-presidents a bit like for the 2 consuls of ancient Rome or even Committee and executive committee and we had tried something similar to that in my own Virginia after the revolution began but eventually the members of. The. Electoral college they didn't want popular vote to create the president they were not willing to trust the people in all instances. They felt that the people might. Take either a candidate or the world situation and put someone into office who wasn't fit for it and so they are acted up and. Between the people and their choice of the people would make their views known in the in the fall elections but then in December of the election year the Electoral College would meet independently and they would go through the. Paper then they would decide for themselves and without any requirements who they wanted to be the president they could name somebody not listed. On any ballots in the elections if they chose they work like in the in the papal system of college of independent cardinals who had an absolute right to choose the next president of the United States so that turned out to be a very problematic system and I suffered from it in 1800 and I tied with Aaron Burr for the presidency and I've created a long national constitutional crisis can we fix the problem with the 12th Amendment which separates the balloting for president and for vice president interesting perspective thank you very much Mr Jefferson You're most welcome so. Again. In. Rock you by the State College on the banks of. The heart of. The Thomas Jefferson your weekly conversation with or about President Thomas Jefferson Thomas Jefferson always created by the. Clay Jenkinson are going. To continue our Jefferson one or one series. Jefferson one. And we agreed last week at the end of the conversation to come back to talk more about Thomas Jefferson time. And I'm so pleased to continue this conversation so welcome to you sir thank you so we're up to 1. 12 and Jefferson 101 and we're now in 1785 or so he was 4340 years old when we just touched on 75 at the end of the program. Half of his life so we're probably going to have a 25 part series we finish. What we did. Spend more time this week talking about job to job description what why he was there and what his official duties were but had planned to send them over several previous times he had always had reasons to go and one time when he was willing to go. Diplomatic point it was canceled because of the treaty of peace was signed but now in 1784 Jefferson. 41 more 40 years old he's grieving over the death of his wife Martha. Always wanted to get to Europe to do the grand tour to see some of the great things about the old world possibly all the way to Rome or Naples and didn't give because Madison. Suggest to the Congress of the United States that they appoint Jefferson as a as a minister plan a potential as a minister without portfolio really and he would be to help create a model treaty between the United States and x. . Some German States France although we have an existing treaty with France Spain Portugal the Barbary pirates he was going to try to create a new set of diplomatic engagements with the countries of the old world so that we could improve our trade status and make. Make war less likely between the United States and the belligerence of Europe most of the people in Europe a. Political figure that they believe the United. It wasn't going to survive and so they had to have some they had to do something to get countries to take them seriously. Jefferson believe that a lot of the anti-American press in Europe was being stirred up by England who was still resentful of our independence exaggerated that we now know but from a European perspective there was no more important than Guatemala or in a more important than Colombia or Nicaragua. Thing that's off the map of the known world we've heard about it. Or experimented with democracy. Well they don't matter and so called this time as an American minister of humility and it was a school of humility in 2 ways David 1st of all. He was no Ben Franklin Ben Franklin was a world historical celebrity so sure that quote with us will you. Like to tell a story about when he was actually appointed by the Congress of the United States to be the replacement for Franklin to the American ambassador so he began as a Minister Plenipotentiary $75.00 actually named America's ambassador to France and he said one my friends my French friends. So you replace Franklin do you. Always respond by saying no no one could replace him I merely succeed him. Very Jeffersonian responds and it's true Franklin was an international celebrity Jefferson was not that well known in Europe but he became pretty well known after being there for a while and one way that he became well known had something to do with his life back in the region he had written something called the Virginia statute for religious liberty which stablished the Church of England and the Anglican Church in Virginia and declared that the mind only free and on course civil and people would not be punished for worshipping in any manner that they chose nor should they receive any civil rewards for it and Jefferson was very proud of that bill which was actually passed in 786 while he was in Europe. It was Madison really who saw through Madison had the political. Capacity the strategic thinking and the stamina and the perseverance to see very idealistic bill through into law and when Europe received copies of the course Jefferson made sure that everybody received copies of this became famous because this was at the time in $76.00 the most breath taking. Law expressing freedom of conscience ever been. Passed or contemplated in the history of the world. Is famous for being a champion of religious liberty and freedom of the press this was really a big moment for him and actually gave him more frame of European circles than his offer of the Declaration of Independence which was not widely known in. 1784 riders come by boat from Boston they left. On a boat that was on its maiden voyage a lot there arrived in England and then they made their way over and then from out to Paris. What he calls a savage from the woods of America and there. We have John Adams and Dr Franklin So what a time it was within a year he was. Back to the United States Franklin had been ill. He was really panting for retirement for a very long. And very poor health he was carried around Paris. And prisoners from the French jails and other servants were allowed to carry the great Frank in the chair. And most of the diplomatic business went to his. Place which was. And he was. Very well known either here Franklin could not get along. Like Dr Franklin greatness but really couldn't stand him and backbiting and undermining and grumbling the whole time but Adams to be the 1st American ambassador to England to James'. Point. Goes to London and. Goes home. Alone with a diplomatic portfolio in France and he becomes America's 1st bonafide ambassador to France. For an audience with the king all the things that one has to do and would go down to Fontainebleau and. Once a month in full diplomatic regalia doing. Great before the king and. Nothing. Whenever anyone would deign to talk to Jefferson who was always. A very modest man he would try to pass off the Treaty of the treaty which rent fair trade between the 2 nations affectively most favored nation trading status between the United States and other nations at the time most nations. Had very protective tariffs and were doing everything they could to protect their own economic advantage but truly free. And having free trade in a world that wasn't quite ready for it and he was trying to advocate. For wars so that they would be very limited in their having trained combatants. And particularly David he was trying to get a better deal for Virginia with respect to tobacco are tobacco not widely available in Europe in one control of the monopoly they react. On and. The Continental market to American Tobacco this would be a great boon for America and of course for region and of course for himself but he was also trying to get American whale oil in the European market that would be New England and American Roman and an indigo and rice and other American products he didn't have much success in this where he found that Europe one was pretty hidebound in its. Trade protocols and he worked really. Worked on everything which was always an enormous amount of discipline trying to crack open these European markets he never really succeeded so from the point of view of Congress. As a commercial minister to Europe. Failed and he knew that he had trailed many other duties he was a sort of a. Federal government so he had even. Negotiating power but I wanted to ask you I read that I 85 percent of the goods that came into America came from Great Britain. Of trade for for Great Britain that was gigantic and we had that power as being one of the big customers well we have. Added but we also were utterly dependent upon Great Britain for our imports so they were monopolizing our economy and Jefferson wanted a declaration of economic independence he wanted us to move away from that and we weren't that far from being at war with a very number of times during this period we came close to war with Britain and Jefferson realized that we had won. The military. And we had Declared Political Independence but we were economically still profoundly dependent on Britain and Britain was discriminating against American economic enterprise and that this was no way to establish the the true independence a complete independence of the United States so he worked hard but but here's where Hamilton comes going to. Get it. Rising and. It's Great Britain's Navy protects. International trade there are were naturally friends of Britain anyway let's let bygones be bygones. Reasons of to try to have an economic war with Britain you're not going to win it we are prospering at Mania and may not be the full prosperity that we are by the way if we have a stronger federal government will be even in better shape right so it's not of not frightened by our dependence on England Jefferson hates it his view is. Why declare independence if you're just going to be their economic. And so he begins what will become the struggle between the Hamiltonians who are pro England and the Jeffersonian that are anti British and largely poor pro French and the struggle will go on now from 1785 and tell at least the election of 800 when Jefferson becomes the 3rd president of the United States back in just a moment you're listening to the Thomas Jefferson. Welcome back to the Thomas Jefferson our your weekly conversation well this week it's about President Thomas Jefferson We're continuing the Thomas Jefferson our one on one series and this week we're up to I believe 112 we're talking about Jefferson's time in Paris and when we took our breaks you were kind of going over how grim the situation was Regev presented trying to negotiate trade deals Well it would be as. We're trying to get deals at the United Nations everybody had bigger fish to fry bigger concerns they looked down on this upstart nation as you said there was a widespread view that the system would simply collapse and we would be reabsorbed under British colonial rule and so most of Europe was skeptical of the United States to the extent that they even were aware of the United States in other words it was of Jefferson represented this fledgling Republic for most of Europe that was a map of the known world. They couldn't care less what was going on in North America what's a good lawyer do if he can't get the big price for. So . Prussia. But. Including Frederick the Great and his able. To conclude treaty with all those provisions of free trade and most favored nation trading status and. Terms for combat. That the other big diplomatic failure in a huge one because. President. Is that he tried the treaty with a tripod. Tripoli up and worked hard on it Adams work and. The. North African. States were going to sign a deal with them even as a famous and very funny letter by a. Guy with diplomats from North Africa and. Particularly. He comes. Treaty with the pirates part and that. Almost and eggs are a way to the naval and Marine war that fought with the North African states beginning in 181 while serving as president didn't forget but. He went to England and famous trip between. Activities failed due to the. Collapse. We tried to get a trade treaty with couldn't be bothered even with them and so. Very difficult didn't want to turn around today on a plane to go back to Paris that was an ordeal. To make the most of what they had a little month long vacation in the home counties of England they went to many of the great gardens. Including which was one of the most beautiful. States in all of England and a long way to. Gardens and made marginal notes. Was just fascinating because Jefferson loved landscape gardening anyway and he wanted to create. A model when he got back and he loved the idea. Connection with nature creating order but not too much order and that Adams was a little bit bored with that he said it's way too soon to be talking about landscape gardening in America but. Shakespeare's his boyhood home. And they even chipped a little piece of wood off. And this was something that was allowed to time and they went to British Civil War sites where they had a pretty good time and. Maybe the most harmonious period in the friendship between John Allen and Thomas Jefferson and then after that thanks changed shopping with. London then lots of. Between. And so on and so forth so that was. But was made possible by the diplomatic failure of the tripod. And after the trip you said that was one of the most. Friendly times between Adams and Jefferson but it think part after that with the coming of the French Revolution. Disrupting to the world it's hard to exaggerate what this meant but Europe had been locked into the. Storm an aristocracy of. State Church. Even beginning at that time. To witness the beginnings of the French Revolution. The attack on the Bastille the bread riots. The temple the flight of the king and so on and. Fascinated by this for several reasons 1st of all. He got to be one of the world's most important historical events if you if you made the top 20 historical events in Western civilization the founding of Rome inevitably the French Revolution has to be a part of a David and. He was. A human culture and . He was completely obsessed and fascinated with the coming of the French Revolution and he hoped that it would lead to an American. Free Republic he thought that. Because there's a lot more entrenched. Corrupt culture and there could possibly be in a new nation like the United States but he assumed that it would play itself out. Of European republics and that France would be the 1st one that carried the flame from Philadelphia over to Paris and then it would go from Paris to Berlin and from Berlin to Madrid and from there you know eventually it would be enlightened revolutionized by the little flame that there was in the United States on the 4th of July 7th in $76.00 so he took pride in that and he became attached to the success of the French Revolution and maybe more than he should have been and so he defended the reign of terror and he defended the excesses of the riots and the French Revolution because he believed that it was a period of chaos that would end in something infinitely superior which in fact eventually it did but everyone. Around him was the other American. Hamilton George Washington. Kang Marshall. Madison. He's defending. Indiscriminate terrorism against the aristocrats of Paris kind of suffered from bad timing to end and later in correspondence added to it as well and if I recall he was writing the supporting statements and then several weeks later the. King was killed. Leaved. Was right that this was the agonizing death. Of a corrupt medieval early modern world that had to be swept away he was right and that these were the agonizing birth pangs of the new world that had to replace it and he knew that this was not going to be a simple transition he wrote a famous letter to Lafayette which I sometimes quote in which he said did you expect to be transported from despotism to Utopia on a feather bed. Anarchy madness violence bloodshed reprisal that that you have to expect when you move from open exceedingly corrupt culture that's fundamentally unjust to most of us to something more enlightened and so he's looking at it as if he's from standing on the surface of Jupiter not on the streets of Paris and most Americans thought too high a price probably going to work out anyway but it's much too high a price to kill 101520000 people to make this happen think about trying. To the American public in modern times. Would be different but some things would not but this this. Is my understanding. And they were pretty. Sort of New Hampshire with an almost everyone against them and principly against them John Adams. They are dear friends there are 2 of the 5 who wrote the Declaration of Independence. Essentially lived together in some part. John Quincy Adams and Abigail Adams have a very successful mildly flirtatious but but but but acceptable friendship. The other class act amongst intellectuals of the American Revolution. Kind of a grumpy and irascible guy but on the whole he's a class act and someone that they can talk about with well about Plato and about you and about vineyards and painting and and so on so there's a deep. Area in friendship between the 2 families and special place in the world Abigail Adams he's quote one of the choice one of the earth. But the French Revolution comes along and Adams kind of intrigued by it but basically appalled by I think it's fascinating because where Jefferson becomes. An Adams like I don't want to add. The can be worth it he calls it a nightmare madness and blood. That fight for you know that famous liberty needs to be water with the blood of patriots and tyrants. But everybody had to know that was a fact Spencer the Revolutionary War and. You could or couldn't you argue the point that Jefferson was saying hey look we know the way it's going to go you might as well face up to it and Adams go well. We don't want to talk about that but. The problem was that he was so cheerful about it. He says the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants it's. Like a little rebellion now and the point point made. Maybe it's inevitable maybe maybe even you can say that it's good to talk about. Thing it and people. Of the true believer of the true radical and he says in the famous letter to William short which he wrote from the United States when he got back but short his . Secretary is still in Europe in the Senate and gloomy reports of the reign of terror and Jefferson wrote the most notorious of all the 26 letters of the ever wrote and was really upset by the kind of alarmed some of your recent letters and the way you're talking about this thing he says if there were one I'm quoting now If there were one atom. And one. In every nation and alive. On quote that would be better than all of the despotisms of history imagine. If there were one Adam and one put that in contemporary terms. And what would happen. If we nuked the whole one man and one woman last but they were free and they were free that would be better than. The Cold War. They don't get along and eventually they repopulate the earth. Now we know he's using this to rhetorical excess we know that this is an argument not actual hope for the world but when Adams something like this he thinks I'm not sure this Jefferson is fundamentally reliable there's something wrong with Jefferson streak of. Revolutionary true belief in this guy he's not really a. Really. Radical posturing or. Posturing That's horrible but that's worse but under any circumstance he is not. The wrong and violent. Position if he's about it and so this began to drive the wedge between Jefferson and Adams and it will widen and it will widen and then in $1800.00 it will break down in the friendship will and over the election of Jefferson to the presidency and by if you had been a historian looking at this. In the 100 you would say this friendship is never coming back the 2 have broken fundamentally and there. Are and then in a kind of a secular miracle in 1012. Day But my point is what's the explanation for the breakdown of the Jefferson Adams friendship and the French Revolution it and came back to haunt him later in his. I'm sure we'll get to in a few We we have taken. French Revolution happened before that particularly and I want to hear from you about the trip to southern France. Quickly and then we can come back. With. He thinks the. Romantic and sexual life is over the. Permanent grieving bachelor John Trumbull a painter of the American revolution takes Jefferson to the agricultural. Domani of the. Extraordinary diminutive British Italian painter by the name. And. He overwhelmed by her sexual. Energy of her charm and her beauty and her passion and her her her her character her she's sort of a frivolous European the wrist a chronic woman but drop dead beautiful and funny and married and married. But he then in a moment of one of their romantic. Adventures in the greater environs of Paris falls and breaks his wrist I read that he either a fountain or a barrel. For something but as a as a probably. An attempt to. But a fall. And it like you go to a number of rooms away and that's beautiful. By a barber barbers where the bone surgeons all the time. And it's badly Sathan he never regain the use of the right wrist and he can't play the violin in the morning he has to learn to write with the left hand and so on and so forth but his French advisors say you know you need to do is go down to the south coast of France to a. Town and they have these mineral waters and if you go to the news and take the waters Europeans Well there's. That this will maybe the suffering in your wrist or maybe even help to cure you. For a minute but he. To make a grand trip to southern France to see the great wine districts of France and to see the canal the Midi the world's 1st great European canal and to go to Marsh say and see something about American trade the could come to the port of Mar say and so he justifies this journey and energy has maybe the greatest whimsical journey of his life you go solo he goes through the wine district and didn't even take. Any took his carriage where they could be taken apart and put back together it was really a beautiful journey for Jefferson and. It may be the culmination of his private happiness even though he was alone on this journey. Well we need to take a break from the actual music there's a lot more to talk about I do want to talk up. At this trip a bit more fuel sure certainly and obviously we need to talk about Maria causeway the great Maria cause and also kind of like to get an assessment from you as to what sort of a job he did was successful under the circumstances fair enough so we'll be back in just a moment you're listening to. The Thomas Jefferson our. Game a. And welcome back to the Thomas Jefferson our your weekly conversation with President Thomas Jefferson or your weekly conversation with the creator of the Thomas Jefferson our Mr Clay Jenkinson and it is clay We're speaking with this week of the host David Swanson and we. Stopped for our break play we were talking about . Maria causeway and last week I referenced the book several tribes Jefferson abroad and if you go to the very last letter in it he's written on October 14th 1789 last letter that he wrote in Europe and to Maria causeway and I was sitting in my backyard last night and going through the book my wife was there and I said Oh my goodness you know you must hear this letter and I explained the circumstances and read it to her and it's I am here my dear friend waiting the arrival of a ship to take my flight from this side of the Atlantic and as we think last of those we love most I profit from the latest moment to be Jewish short but affectionate adieu and a writer and so be it my dear friend and ado under the hope which springs naturally out of what we wish once again and then for will remember me and lo and Jan said world. Where they get where they have and I said. Like platonic and she said to me I don't think I don't think they ever consummated them but he was certainly in love with her and she with him I had I had read about that well it's a beautiful letter as most of us waters are not surprising that he fell in love with her because she was sort of famous for making men who fall in love with her she was one of those women who can just make her to her beauty and charm. James the great British journal keeper said she treats men like dogs and he had been her orbit. And everyone knew this that she was a she had. Once she made a man with her then she would him what she could party and travels and love and friendship and so on and then. Never sleep with him and eventually the man would grow tired of this and. She was married but it was. But that was. That well we do because the way she talks about her husband. Was. Paying for among other things. He was kind of a well known guy and he. Comes to Paris to paint a painting of family he's painting a hard daily work she's available. Sometimes. From. 76 and tell. That's what she went back to England with her husband and then she came back the next year and. This is such a horrible story and in kind of a bad light so they've had whatever this is I don't think it was but it was certainly an erotic and romantic and she probably provided him with. After the death of his wife and probably very important. But then he goes back with. My head and my heart. She comes back alone the next year and. Out and he avoids her because he knows that it's. Richard near by her husband they probably wind up consummating turns into a revolution saying that. What that would keep him from doing this. Fear propriety because. He didn't really want to sleep with why he wanted to but I mean he didn't really intend to sleep with. He wanted to. Have this. Thing intrinsically wrong with that but the idea of actually. A bad blub affair was prepared. Even the beginning he talked about. He would have. To go here and we should. All kind of this dance. To work. On. The surprising part of this. And saying to her all along you should paint the Natural Bridge if you paint the. Paint Niagara he gets back to the United States after this after. Ok I will come to America and. Maybe not. Because it's a fact this made up this would not have been acceptable to the American people had turned up in America. By the Great in. This one. It would have meant he would have been the only way that this could have possibly worked and it would have cost him dearly in the political world. Having divorced. Time and married and he was. And never marry again. When he got back to the u.s. And then he wasn't really prepared any longer for her to come even though she was to. See him. Forming a convent school in Italy and she's a painter and a composer and many many other things but she creates a convent school for girls. Of her. And she blank. And she wants. She can paint in the home of the great. American revolutionary Thomas on the wall of her and her school. They keep on again off again correspondence for the rest of their lives. But for their long periods he doesn't return all her letters and he's clearly trying to bring this thing down into a more manageable scale. From the point of view of romance disappointing from a woman's point of view. And could almost beg her to come to America and then when she was willing to come. Going to happen so you see perfectly to walk in the Hemmings. Just overview. The 1st time in. 17 any sex. With her brother and. Then he took a lot of heat from. Having his. Daughter Lucy. Back in Virginia. Very very upset as you might well expect. Something 85 he had left his. Younger. Back in Virginia because they were too young for the for travel safe and they were young. But then when Lucy dies of complications of whooping cough and. Panic. As well he should have and I want her here. Know. That if she's going to bring her ear that's fine but the minute she gets to Europe he needs to be there waiting at the dock and Jefferson was his hotel and this really upset Abigail Adams writes him a very sharp letter. You cad but. I want to thoughts are that after this poor child of 9 crossed the Atlantic Ocean in the company of strangers. You know you would have been there to meet her. Daughter was. And along with a game he had ordered her on and he said in his shop or on should be an elderly black slave woman who had had the smallpox. And. They send an 18 year old Sally Hemings who is. 3 quarters white. Who is just a girl herself. The 9 year old and when Abigail Adams Met Sally Hemings in London she kept. The 2 girls for a week or more when she met. This can't be good she's too young to be. Right back to America she should never have been the. To intuit this. To be a temptation this is not good and so. Joined her brother James which would. Go on the journey because brother you know we don't know but. That. One is very important. That under French law they're free they cannot be enslaved under French law and if they don't want to go back to the u.s. They don't have to and they actually. And at least I think may have been at the meeting too but. In truth. I know something about this. And they will protect us. And then. And. If you come back with me. Somebody else the Art of French cookery which I have had you learn a great expanse here. And I'll give you money and you can go wherever you please in America and find your. Cooking school or whatever you want to do but you have to come home with me. And you have to. Do the cooking and then I will man you met you and give you money. And he is now that we know for truth he is also said to have. Hemmings much much later in the 1970 s. That he said to her if you will come back with me I will free all of your children when they reach maturity and she had 4 surviving children and all 4 were in fact freed by one and 2 mechanisms 2 were allowed to walk away because they were white enough in appearance to pass so they just walked off the plantation and 2 were freed under of complicated provision and his last will and testament so all 4 of her own children were freed by Thomas Jefferson when they became adults that mean he. But that's the deal that he struck with Sally Hemings in Europe and he kept that. Treaty went to Philadelphia he actually committed suicide later Sally Hemings. Until the death of the master. Martha permits are to go live alone and free but while still technically a slave and Charlottesville where she is accepted by the community. But they accept her. For a black woman especially in her last years. Do you recall anything more. Only that she said that this can't be. Fragile and young and inexperienced and naive and vulnerable. So we don't know if she thought she was bright. Later. Having story broken 18 to. Think this through. I don't like Jefferson but it could be true because of the nature of slavery and so that's a really good answer that's a very neutral answer we don't ultimately know David whether the story is true you know I think it's true you're convinced but we can't know what you know I guess not to get. I think it's possible it's true. What I really have trouble with our. Present day historians who become accepted fact you know. I read something in Philadelphia paper recently I'm 10 reasons to Jefferson Well you know it's a fact you know we don't know we don't know. That one of her 4 children was fathered by Jefferson That's all we know. And with us ultimately the challenge that James Hemmings put to Jefferson about an. Important story if it's true. We know that's a fact we know it's a fact and right. I believe. The 2nd thing that I want to say about this. The mystery we don't know whether. If they were then the question becomes. Well she 14. Or 15 or 16 in France or was it when they got back to. Madison later in life with this interview he gave to a white abolitionist in Ohio. She came back pregnant. And that's Tom. Tom or Tom named after his father presumably died pretty quickly after the return to a Virginia no one has been able to true in other words if. And I want to stop talking about Sally Hemings may or may not have been pregnant in France if she was pregnant in France it makes the story a little worse than a she became pregnant when she got back to the us you think it would have been. No . Truth that Sally Hemings came true. Not when Jefferson arrived there but later she came as a chaperone to marry her Maria she was just a child at the time 14 years old she comes back to the United States when Jefferson returns in 1789 and the story becomes a political scandal much much later in 80 No 2 so we've done it that's it that's our 2nd program and we're going to do one more and that's what the Jefferson learned and friends that sounds great to me so the next one will be about the key letters to Madison and the lessons of Jefferson learned from his 5 years residency in Europe and especially France and curse and then it's on to Mr Hamilton isn't it and he comes back and when he lands in the United States in late November of 79 there's a letter waiting for him on shore that says I'm George Washington I am the new president of the United States and I have named you to be my secretary of state and by the way the Senate has confirmed it looks forward to that one thanks everyone will see you next week for another exciting edition of The Thomas Jefferson our. The Thomas Jefferson our. Decoder skyhigh education the program is distributed nationally by publicly. President Thomas Jefferson live from 74321826 and this program versions his. Presidential person is portrayed by the award winning humanity scholar and author of Play asking. To obtain a copy of this or any national for a $12.00 nation please call 8888282853 again that number is 8888282853. This program is also available online at Jefferson our God or and on i Tunes. If you'd like to correspond with President Jefferson or submit. Question for him to answer on the program please visit the Web site at Jefferson our God. The challenge Jefferson Alors produced at the coach a recording studios in Bismarck North Dakota music by Stephen Swinford. Thank you for listening please tune in again next week for another thought provoking historically accurate program in the archives of history. And you listen to. Him around the. Point.