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From Washington d.c. To. Get all. Of the for your questions right now. Call 1864 spring 110 that's. 60 or one take. Your calls Jordan's secular. Welcome to Jay Sekulow live this is Jordan secular there's a lot to talk about today on the broadcast as we look back at some of the issues we are fighting and preparing to fight for in the New Year Take a listen now and support the work of the American Center for Law and Justice through our matching challenge you can even donate today the day after Christmas at a c l j dot org That's a c l j dot o r g we still have our matching challenge until the year in where you double the impact your donation whatever you can donate to the a.c.l. J. Is doubled and a.c.l. Jade out or take a listen for the fights ahead Planned Parenthood is now according to the sources at the Justice Department under investigation for the sale of fetal body parts the Just One has lost the federal investigation into Planned Parenthood practices and the sale of people body parts which is illegal under both state and federal law pretty much around the country in a letter that was person tamed from Fox News a just warm assistant attorney general for Legislative Affairs Steven Boyd formally requested an redacted redacted I say this for a reason documents from the Senate Judiciary Committee let me tell you why the unredacted is significant I am holding in my hand our petition for writ of certiorari to the Supreme Court of the United States on this very case. Involving the Center for Medical Progress their board member Trey Newman against the National Abortion Federation because and in our search for tissue and let's put it up on the screen for our t.v. On Facebook and periscope audience. It says redacted public version. Because the court order would not allow underage acted versions of this to go even to law enforcement so what you have now is the and this is what's so interesting about the Department of Justice investigation here is they're saying they want the unredacted documents but in court we had to file the redacted documents so that's what we filed in court with all actually 2 versions of it but this is the one that's the public version so we can't show you the redacted but the Justice Department that's important but it's that court order that prohibit it and that was part of the problem here yes is that major part of the problem but I mean I just want to make this clear to everybody the f.b.i. Is confirming 100 percent they are investigating Plame parenthood I mean this is big news folks to understand when the f.b.i. Is investigating Planned Parenthood they're investigating them now for civil issues for criminal conduct criminal activity in relation to the sale of what they call fetal body parts the body parts of aborted babies they are being criminally investigated for and the f.b.i. Is asking Congress to get more information on what Plame parent who was doing even in the brief you had to have a redacted and yes private and brief that the justices can actually get just to see the on redacted what we have as a public company now get the unredacted correct law enforcement we cannot give the f.b.i. That documentation we cannot give the f.b.i. Documentation that is in. Obtained by our clients so this is a situation no but the seriousness of this to get down to it all of us why people are don't get in trouble on these issues this is the beginning this is when people start to get in trouble it's when they when an f.b.i. Investigation began I mean that this is this is seriously bad news for Plame Parenthood It really is and we're going to get into this thing give us a really quick 10 2nd reaction to Washington this just broke last night and the only thing I would say is this is why we work both sides of this issue to congressional. Side in the investigative side because Jay Sometimes you need both pieces to prove the case in the end this one of those examples folks again not only are we analyzing the news breaking the news we're part of the news or litigating it at the Supreme Court of the United States were to take your calls your reaction to the Justice Department investigating play and paranoia not a view about that 11806831 Ted we'll take your phone calls and comments on Facebook and prayers go mogul give you the number but we want you to engage on that we've got other topics as well will hit in the next hour that's right 164-3110 if you want your voice heard the finest broadcast live on Social Media 16431. 147 film word Ryan is quick to admit he was unprepared for marriage but he found the help he needed to be a good husband focused on a family in person in my marriage because I can understand other people have gone through the same thing that I'm going through and I'm not alone in the struggle that I think and my wife and I hope from the stories there are shared on air time Jim daily help us give the gift of family to more husbands like Ryan call $800.00 Equal Housing lender member f.d.i.c Merry Christmas from color to Christian university discover the gift that keeps on giving at c.c.u. Experience are exceptional academics and unique integration of faith and learning with courses designed specifically for working adults the choice is up to you you can take classes only on line or right here in Colorado Springs and Stephanie enrollment director for the Colorado Springs campus I understand that where you choose to pursue your education is an important decision by the Colorado Springs Center 25 North academy to find out how c.c. You can help you or call 867-5817. 18643115 the way we just got a briefing from David Benjamin in our office in Jerusalem to get a sense of what's happening on the ground he said that no atmosphere of crisis no 254 hour news updates in the Israeli media some natural anxiety due to all the incitement talk put on the game ground as yet relatively contained so there doesn't seem to be this national or regional protests where that every Arab country people want to be taken to the streets doesn't mean it won't happen but we're monitoring it carefully on that point but if you're just joining us the news is of course that is the Department of Justice has opened up an investigation of Planned Parenthood over the sale of body parts now as I said we've are actually involved in this case at the highest level I mean to the Supreme Court of the United States but we had to file our petition for that was for public view that was redacted meaning we could put in the information about what the Center for Medical Progress their board members found the Department of Justice has asked the Senate for the un redacted versions of this so they could start their investigation 20 states attorneys general have filed briefs in art. Behalf saying hey we need this for our own investigative. Into the Situation Room Planned Parenthood So there you have it we're going to take your calls and comments below that was really good comment that came in on Facebook Democrats said on Facebook do you actually think playing Perry will face charges I don't mind you of it right now is yes I mean I don't know if there will be when I say charges they are facing a serious investigation does that mean it will result in charges if there's prim analogy there will be there step was very cavalier in the way they described these activities of theirs to the point of disgusting is is the truth I mean it was not that I want to repeat on radio right now so I think all of that has come back as a problem Planned Parenthood has denied it but Planned Parenthood has had serious and ongoing problems I mean on this on this and many other issues yes they've had a congressional investigations they've had the civil battles that they've tried to fight to stop people from seeing these videos and they've tried to stop and shut that down but now they've got the real trouble they've got f.b.i. And local law enforcement a Federal Law Enforcement Division f.b.i. Criminally investigating Planned Parenthood for the potential illegal criminal because it violates statute. Sale of baby body parts Ok this is this is the kind of investigation I mean we're moving down the road of whatever charges are filed they could seriously damage an organization like Planned Parenthood because it's a criminal it's not like they can say some bureaucratic part of the government's coming after us or you know the i.r.s. Is auditing No no no this is crimes crimes that you may have committed and it's warranting a point in Congress has been asking for it Congress doesn't just willy nilly ask the f.b.i. To investigate crimes even of groups it doesn't like that would not be right you only do that when you believe that there's criminal activity afoot so let's go to Washington on this because obviously they asked the just a moment is asking for the Senate to hand over documents what are we things that play there with Senator Grassley what will we do and then the question's going to be are is groups like me or Al the National Abortion Federation Planned Parenthood to come in and try to stop the transfer of documents by getting a court order which was obtained in the case involving the Center for Medical Progress Like I said I'm holding the I'm holding the cert petition which we had to do for public record redacted. On the one that went with the court we were able to do on redacted but on the one here we did redacted to go ahead Ben your reaction Well 1st of all the congressional panel recommended that there's a very investigation take place but the Senate Judiciary Committee reached out to the f.b.i. And said look some of this information that you're looking for we have in an redacted form because we got it before this court order and by the way j. Everything I'm hearing is that some of that information are those price lists that we saw detailing the price for each various baby body part not redacted Now interesting Jay when the f.b.i. Came back to the committee and said we want that the same concern that you just addressed with Jordan is what was the concern of Chairman Grassley and Ranking Member Feinstein and they actually reached before they provided this information they reach back to the f.b.i. And said we can't give this to you unless you confirm to us that we will be used for investigative purpose. That's how we know this investigation is now in place did they got that letter back and they're in the process of turning the information over state's attorney generals can't get it so the states who are laws on this also are not able to get this information and what's interesting I'm actually holding in my hand a page and it has the testimony that was produced in the House report where it where the abortion technique was changed in order to do the hardest the fetal tissue the people body parts and that this was the ones you were you already know how they were to handle the brains of the Chinese horrors horrible. But then it says redacted and you see it right there I'm holding it for the camera redacted then there's another discussion and it says again redacted so what this is because they won't let a court order said this information can't go out which is really absurd What's the difference between the part that. Was redacted Friday and said The part that is not I mean so was it video based or some that the videos that got out there they did back that but it was just new information has not yet been released it's yes videos that did not get released they released them were required to be pulled back but and they can't be shared with the attorney general so we'd be cautious on what we follow All right we got a lot of new a lot of calls coming in and we're taking your comments as well when you want to do is going to take a comment let's go to Joseph in l.a. I lied to a Joseph. Direct result. Of our asking that online Yes So no I think that the investigation started with the undercover videos that were bought done by the Center for Medical Progress we represent as I said Newman who is one of the board members there and I think that's where the evidence started from I don't know if there's other evidence because the courts in California San Francisco I made an appearance before this judge tried to basically shut. Down all distribution vehicles including to states attorney generals or government officials or investigatory agencies but Congress jumped on this very aggressively thing and I mean the Senate was on this very very quickly although yeah he said after they got on his once these court orders started coming down. Well an ad for groups like ours started getting information through other means and kind of forced him into action but Jay My sense is that in addition to the videos they have documentarian evidence that demonstrates there's more than just reimbursement going on here because remember that's a key under federal law that there's actually profiteering going on here so my sense is that the documentation that they are turning over also links Planned Parenthood to that intermediary stem express and then ultimately the final buyer because Jay that is what you would have to demonstrate in order to level charges against Planned Parenthood and not just an expressed that intermediary buyer or they've had issues with this I mean this is not a new thing was planned parenthood they just got caught they got caught and they've been they've been selling these body parts since it probably as long as they've been in a market for it the technology has been there and so the law is very clear and I know that it's controversial but the law is clear that you cannot financially benefit from the sale of these parts that you can only even for research activities that are legal and you can question whether or not that should be Ok but under the law there are some ways that this is legal you can basically only sell it for cost so you can recoup what it cost you to obtain the fetal body parts and what Congress saw was quadruped this is typical play apparent by the way they've got in trouble before with other things like Medicaid. Billing where the funding has been quadrupled but you know the cost is $3.00 times the amount that normally would be triple billing these my doctor said I want to get a new Lamborghini right and you don't get a new Lamborghini by just recouping exactly what it cost you to do it the retrieval of the body part because that is just supposed to cover your caution as opposed to financially then if it from the sale of these body parts that was the whole idea and then there was a whole market for it so it built it created a market then for companies who then bought it from plain Parenthood who then sold it to other people and it was again you can go on their websites and see how. How much these body parts cost so here this was supposed to be in this brief would have been a picture that we campaign for that center for medical progress it will get it's redacted the next page if you go over to what I'm holding you'll see it says from 4 different places redacted redacted redacted redacted redacted pursuant to court order so let me be clear about that so it's redacted pursuant to a court order that court order we believe is completely unconstitutional now we've got the Senate investigating All right let's take another call other comet phone lines are open at 86431 times going to carry on line one Kerry welcome I carry. My thank you and I don't want to express my sincere gratitude to you folks and the work that you're doing you are doing a lot. Of breath of fresh air to see people like you out there doing the right thing in the state of. Equal and I want to thank you and let you know that you are in my prayers I'm putting you in my church they are killing and wish you. Well thank you and let me say this because we this is something that when we people are thanking us I've got to turn it right around and thank you all understand we can't do this without your support whether we're whether we're the radio broadcast or whether discussing the the actual brief sort of the work of the Supreme Court United States wherever it might be we don't get to do this without your support so again a huge thank you from all of us to you we are to matching challenge campaign for the month of December we encourage you is our biggest month of the year you go to a c l j dot org If you want to see it continue to fight against groups like Planned Parenthood just go to a c l j dot o r g that's a c l j dot org And any amount you donate we're going to get a matching gift for so we encourage you to do that a c l j dot or we've got a lot more coming up on will take phone calls and comments if that's right you get those comments and those phone calls and there are one line available online as well 16431 to get your comments on social media Facebook periscope or Twitter just search for a 2nd and a. That matching challenge again you don't need to be a seal Jay we can imagine your for a c l j or. The word 100.7. 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Day for Focus on the family with Jim daily focus on the family at 7 am noon and 7 30 pm on 100.7 The Work. Of the broadcasts everyone we've got we're talking about is Planned Parenthood breaking news situation because we've got a case of this report United States dealing exactly with this and that is the f.b.i. Is now in conducting an investigation regarding the sale of fetal body parts but there was a court order issued in the u.s. District court in San Francisco and that was a firm of the 9th Circuit that said that the client our clients could not share that information even with law enforcement 20 states attorney general's father brief on our behalf saying that this case should be heard by the Supreme Court will know about that probably in the next 2 months but meanwhile the Senate is now investigating or giving documents over to the Department of Justice but we actually had to file for our public version of our search for a petition that's the formal brief you file with the Supreme Court a redacted version because of that court order and that's exactly what's being fought over so I guess this is again one of those days where we're talking about the news we are the news we're making the news I mean this is our case all right let's go ahead Logan and take some calls or comments let's go to for a while it's going to bark is calling on line 4 but I'm on the air. Here there. Oh yeah Mark you're on the air go. Thank you. Support you go as you go work you get when I have a 3 part question all right. Buying that body parts let's start with one do we know who's buying the body parts see if there's you know there are companies companies that then engage in the next level so I am Parenthood SIL's into these a hard business right so to say sell them to companies who then sell them to research institutions and there is a legal way to do this in an illegal way and the illegal way is if you're profiting from actually looked. If the abortion comp companies carrying out the abortion have been planned parenthood is profiting from dismembering these body parts and then selling them to those 3rd parties who then go out for this market price that is the crime you cannot profit and they will cover your cost that is all that your logic so the law allows you to sell fetal body parts I know this is controversial the law allows that but they don't allow you to profit from it only to recoup your cost so be let you know if your business if it costs you $20.00 to do something you're supposed to get $20.00 not $25.00 and certainly not $50.00 back is so Also remember this that the they had to Planned Parenthood was called under cover saying that the doctors had to change their the abortionists had to change their method of doing that's another your horse is legal and that's also illegal so that's a whole you can not do the procedure for the purposes of retrieving the fetal body exactly so All right Mark that was question one what's next. Would it be difficult to get those records to support your case no because those records exist and if the federal government can certainly get access to those records now they are fighting it every which way they can including with the issue of these court orders saying like I said one holding I would say for selling a broken record but I'm holding a search warrant petition requests to the Supreme Court and from the public version of the word what the public would see on the Supreme Court website what could be distributed it has to be redacted so and now but then is confirming and I think then it's reported gets confirmed again what what has happened with these documents between the Senate and the f.b.i. Well honestly Jay I think the reason it's happening is because those of us on the outside are connecting the dots that Jordan just laid out so I think what the Senate Judiciary Committee is providing to the f.b.i. To demonstrate is that while that intermediary country company one of them was stem express by the way they have been technically by the letter of the law complying with the law not saying they were it's possible they were big maybe they were only reimbursing Planned Parenthood they then had a relationship with Planned Parenthood and the seller on the other end was selling them for a very high value so that linkage from Planned Parenthood to the enemy or nearby or to the final buyer is the evidence that they're now putting forth to the f.b.i. To confirm to me that there was almost like a 3 or 4 parts step in the way in which so they're going to and they would argue that is their defense but it's the procurement itself for a profit that is the problem right and so if you they're on record people saw those videos I don't know if those are the some of those videos are no longer able to be accessed where they said well we've got to do the procedure this way to get this brain or to get this part of the liver and so what's going for more these days you know what cost them both some of that horrible video where they said it's a boy yeah I mean so yes so the $2.00 steps in the law is you can't profit from it you can only refer to cost and 2nd you can't change your to abortion techniques for the purposes of obtaining the fetal body parts so there's 2 criminal violations potential here. This is in the u.s. Law federal law so but I think as you say play imperative tries to always shield itself from from having these multiple instances in place so plain Parenthood does not market them to the university is that right that's as it was of stem express companies the right secondary companies which have the relationship with the abortion clinic who then purchase from the clinic they say Ok and then. Then they go out and they sell it resell it on the market All right so the question I guess is that people are asking and that is. Because the obvious question why are we the American taxpayer fan paying for us because they still get a half a $1000000000.00 from us because in that in trying to overturn Obamacare which would have been a defunding of Planned Parenthood guess what was not passed that bill well because Planned Parenthood has been very good with these money shell games for a long time and they've hidden the fact actually not too well but they disguise the fact that they use taxpayer dollars for abortion we've of course exposed that and we do think there needs to be a legislative fix day but look we've got to learn our lesson Planned Parenthood does these money schemes they have for a long time and it's time to quit letting them get around to using those games but let's go ahead and take a nother phone call if we are right let's go to a key to his color line 5 in Oklahoma I can hear on the air. Today I got it my question is. If you can't clinic. And why when a woman pregnant and. Then the person you no longer can. Yeah because the because the law has recognized her literally. Decades and decades that if there's an intentional act of homicide and the woman was pregnant that in fact 2 charges of murder can be leveled for both for the child the unborn child and the woman and that just shows you that this is the abortion distortion factor it's like all the rules change when the issues abortion there's no good defense for that it's ridiculous but that's not that's the reason we fight so aggressively on the life issue at the lower courts at the Supreme Court of the United States wherever it might be when we're going to continue to do that so again rest assured we're front and center on this but it does show this double standard that constantly exists Yeah exactly I mean so you on the one hand the law recognizes this life that is that is a forming in the womb and on the other hand the law allows for the taking of that life without and says it's legal to do so so on the one hand you can be punished for it in the criminal context if in the commission of a crime on the other hand if you go to a clinic it's only purpose is to take that life and to and they are not they are allowed to do that and profit from it yes so I think what we have to realize really is in our law in that yeah I mean you cannot I cannot reconcile the 2 so they're not reconcilable that's just the fact of what we have all right here's what we're going to do we're we've got another half hour of the broadcast you let everybody know what's coming and we're going to get into some other issues as well next 30 of family this Christmas season what does your financial gift to focus on the family do well it helps rescue and strengthen hurting marriages it empowers parents to raise godly children and it introduces people to the good news message of Jesus Christ Contact us today at 800 the letter a in the word family or donate online to focus on the Family dot com slash radio and let me say thanks in advance for your support 100 points the word through the Bible is sponsored by through the Bible radio ministries. As a young wife and mother Betsy knew where to turn for help with their family and now 40 years later. Jim Daly help us give the gift to family today and your donation will be doubled call 800 a family. This is focus on the family with Jim Dale and today Dr Rose are you a part of field addresses a challenging and controversial topic in our culture today and that is since every single one of us struggles with original sin which distorts us every single one of our struggles with actual sand that distorts us every single one of us just with into the mindset that manipulate us and those are for beliefs so when when somebody whom struggles for same sex attraction says I was born this way immediately Christians get on the defects and say No God would never make you blah blah Well true God doesn't make you sand but I'm born in Adam and Romans 126 tells me that the fine print of original sin in my life is a deep and abiding sexual and otherly attraction to people of my same sex Jon we shared last time that Dr Butterfield has been one of our most popular guests this year which is why your program is part of our 2017 best of collection had a dramatic conversion to Christ and one time she was a tenured professor who taught English and queer theory as Sarah Hughes university she was a feminist and a lesbian and about as far away from God as she could be but she was also a truth seeker and man I give her credit for that now that's what I love about her story because through the help and guidance of a loving Christian couple Rezai have found the truth of God's word and it transformed her life forever the last time we began the follow up to resign his story how she is now a pastor's wife puts a big smile on my face and continues to speak and write about issues like same sex attraction gender identity and how Christians can become more effective witnesses to the l g b t community if you missed that program last time get the download or the cd it's a fantastic program or you can get our broadcast app for your smartphone which is an easy way to listen you'll find these resources and Dr by. Fields book openness unhindered and focus on the Family dot com slash radio or call us and we can tell you more 800 a family Here's part 2 of our Best of 2017 conversation with Dr was are you Butterfield I'm focused on thing. Let's pick up a little bit from that clip and what you talked about last time in terms of sand and the fact that we don't like it and I that's true of all of us whether you're a believer or nonbeliever sin makes us feel guilty and it puts us in a place where we're not comfortable and in fact in this context of same sex attraction and gay marriage and all of that. Often the statement that is given is if the culture did not shame us in this area we wouldn't have shameful thoughts and feelings there wouldn't be. Kind of the bad attitude toward us if you can kind of respond that idea of sin and the context of if you didn't know it was said you wouldn't be upset with me yeah I think it's a sin to say that the doctrine of sin is the best kept secret in the world and I think people don't understand that you know for me it was actually very liberating . To to have you know to finally understand what Romans 5 says I mean which is what Romans 5 you know Romans 5 is what really helped me understand that a regional sin wasn't didn't just make me broken it actually made me guilty and corrupt just like everybody else on the planet and that Jesus His love was so powerful on the cross that he was able to bear down it was a conquering and triumphant love so I think you know I don't want to get back to this idea that I really think Christians have a low view of sin I know there probably is listeners ready to drive off the road right now hearing me say this but you know I think that we often minimize sin we act as though you know hey the. You know the devil made me do it Original Sin I was born this way I can't help it well you know God knows you can't help it that's why we need to be born again right and then the other way that we minimize said is we only really give people half the Gospel we say that God's atoning love forgives you you are forgiven but then we forget the other half which is that you have the power to obey you have the power and that's the key point and you said last time something that we need to kind of close the loop on Ok you talked about becoming a Christian 1909 that in that environment it was easier you think if you were in that spot today because of the normalization right of homosexual union and the Oberg of fell decision sorry for the cultures and bracing it right but talk about the last part of that question I just mentioned this connection between sin and shame yes of shame goes away yeah when you're being basically Christians are being shamed not to shame right that's right that is so when people don't feel shamed or see that they're living in a sinful spot it's hard for them to recognise Yes it is truth that Jesus proclaims light it is it is and I think it's because for too long the evangelical church has been confident in saying we need more grace and you might say look we're sorry who's going argue with that mark a fan of going as a fan of grace but repentance is the threshold to God And so if you want to deal rightly with your shame I mean when I came to Christ I was 8 you know it was it was startling it was like waking up in that verse and solve 73 I am like of beast before you I really thought I was on the side of justice and and and goodness and and compassion and to realise that it was Jesus I was persecuting the whole time it was my own doing and then to have that line in some 73 I am a beast before you I was filled with shame I was filled with shame and. And one of the things that I that I learned at this point I was in the church and I was worshipping God and we were singing the songs and I realized that David felt the same way I did but he didn't beg for grace it's so interesting he actually begged that he would fully repent and that he would be in this is some $51.00 I'm referencing now that he would be cleaned white as snow that his repentance would indeed bring glory to God you know sometimes we have shame because we think if only we didn't do it we'd be more effective as Christians what we need to understand that you want to be a poster child of Christianity then you're a poster child of repentance that's powerful you're put you are not a poster child of having lived a wonderful cleaned up life our lives changed or absolutely changed and you know why because we're killed that's what the Gospel does it brings death. Before it brings life and that's what union with Christ means you know Christ means that you died with Christ and you have risen with him and you know there's a passage in Romans sometimes you know I just get to speak to people who are just struggling under the weight of their sexual sin and you know maybe you're listening to this right now knew you know that just minutes ago you were 6 hours deep into Internet pornography and you're a believer I'm a maybe you're a leader in the church and here you are well this verse is for you and for me do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death we were buried there for with him by baptism into death in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father we too might walk in newness of life for we have been united with him in death like his for if we have been united with him in a death like his we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his what we need to do and what we need to know is at that moment when we have fallen deep into sin and Satan is saying to us see. You're not a believer look what you just did that is that moment when we get to really say back you know what you're right every sin deserves to have Isn't it interesting that Satan knows half the Gospel Praise be to God that we know the whole Gospel and that is that we have risen with Christ Jesus and you know what every time we repent of our sin we have risen with Christ Jesus every time we apply faith to the facts of our depravity we have risen with Christ Jesus Yeah and that's important because that's where you get the power to live a life that's full of God's Spirit now we're talking about equipping Christians and here's an example of the kind of questions I get in certain interviews usually the more hostile interviews they'll say something like what's the problem with gay marriage I mean how does it bother you how does it affect you and that we're hearing that challenge a lot in today's culture how should we respond. The problem with gay marriage I've already talked about how it puts a millstone around the neck of people who struggle with same sex attraction right Ok so that's a really big one it puts a millstone around your neck because they don't see the error that there is and I'll tell you I was speaking at a large church and a woman who is 76 years old waited to the end of a book signing she came to me she said Rezaei I am 76 years old I have been home sexually married to my lesbian partner for 50 years we got married in Canada we have children and grandchildren I have now heard the Gospel and I'm going to lose everything right and I said right. Nobody told her. It's a mill stone so the 1st problem with gay marriage is that there are brothers and sisters of our holy God who are now deceived and manipulated by a world that believes that God's law is discriminatory The biggest problem is that there are souls now. Lost and protected by Satan's minions and that should be every Christian's biggest problem and so we don't get to reinvent marriage because we're not the real deal but the big problem with gay marriage is that it's not just reinvents marriage it reinvents personhood by solidifying this idea that there is something called a gay person and to deny that gay person civil rights is a form of bigotry in fact in the book openness unhindered and you really stress the subtitle which is further thoughts of an unlikely convert. You talk about friend of yours Rebecca who identifies as a gay Christian right I just cuts right to the illustration you're using how did the 2 of you dialogue together how do you maintain a relationship and not let your blood boil Yeah yeah about dialogue and because I think so often we in the Christian community we feel frustrated right now maybe intimidated because the culture is so quick to embrace same sex marriage now they feel like you're the problem right so you shy away from those things so you either are your blood boiling or you're not willing to talk to anybody be you've had this dialogue with Rebecca as you mentioned in your book right how do you go about having discussion with somebody where you have deep disagreement right right and Rebecca is that we don't just have a dialogue She's my dear friend she is my dear friend and I love her and we pray together and we cry together and we do life together so you know these this is not a small thing Christians in order to maintain a biblical witness we need to remember that people are not positions and that people can be very duped by positions and certainly people right now who struggle with same sex attraction are manipulated by the gay rights movement in very powerful ways in fact these are dear brothers and sisters who feel like they are literally being pulled apart by wild horses. Torn between an evangelical church. That despises them for reasons that ought not and and a civil rights movement that wants to manipulate them for a cause it is crucial that people of God realize that and so so the 1st is to remember that people are not positions and the 2nd is to not by the terms of the world you know I will tell you that I had a very dear friend who came out as a lesbian recently and announced to me that she and I could no longer be friends because because of where quote unquote where I stand now we've been friends for over 2 decades we have helped raise children together we have been neighbors at certain seasons we have been there for each other and she said we cannot be friends because you don't approve of me and I have to say Ruth I hate to break your bubble but I have never approved if you Ok all those years that we have been the dearest I have never approved of and I have news for you you never approved of me I think you said spanking children is barbaric at one point I thoroughly remember getting firm lectures about the kind of chicken nuggets I bought from Cosco and how that was going to kill my children and then I remember the full on arguments we had over Pixar films so I have news for you don't drink the Kool-Aid I don't know why you're drinking the Kool-Aid I never approved of you and you never approved of me but you've always left each other we've been there for each other we are there in the adoption of our children and the birth of our children we've been there when big things happened in our neighborhood we've been there in the in situations of violence and anger and you know why because love is a conquering kind of thing because it's invented by God So. She laughed and she said You're right I never approved of you I've always loved you Ok we're good. We need to get there with people and he's almost like a brutal honesty but we're too afraid to be that reader with you we have to be brutal with each other we just have to say it like it is and as far as how do you you know what do you do with you just move into a neighborhood and you've got a couple next door who identifies as lesbian and they have children and what do you do when you know what you get to know your neighbors heard I mean I don't want to say you get to know the names of their children and the names of their dogs so that you can return both when they wander let me ask you the benefit of that which you experienced in your own journey that opened the door for your heart man because you know after about 2 years of reading the Bible for my research one of the things that happened was undoing to me the Bible offered a totally different understanding of homosexuality than I had ever had and the Bible started to get under my skin and I was faced with the question Do I really want to understand homosexuality from God's point of view or do I just want to argue with him and you know what I just wanted to argue with him so I just wanted to be done with this research program and quite frankly I wanted to wash my hands of these Christian neighbors and so I pretty much tried to break up with Ken and Floyd I said Ok we're done with each other I'm not going to write this book I don't like it I don't want to talk about it and I don't want to read the Bible anymore because it's one thing when I'm just squaring off with this book the Bible but it's another when it's getting under my skin so I'm done and guess what Ken and flight did they didn't let go of me Ken looked at me and you're hoping they would know my goodness I was right now do that or it can look to me and he said I can only imagine how hard this is he said but if you trust me please keep reading and please keep meeting with us and the only reason that I did was because can was my friend. That is powerful and it's one of our great failures today actually Romans 24 Don't you know it's God's kindness Yes that leads one to repentance and Mark 102-8231 this is where Peter says to Jesus see we have left everything and followed you and Jesus said Truly I say to you there's no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands for my sake and for the Gospel could not receive a hundredfold now in this time houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands with persecutions and in the age to come eternal life this verse tells you that when you share the gospel I don't mean just in word I mean in deed like Ken Smith did with your neighbors who identify as gay or lesbian they will receive 100 fold and this is not talking about spiritual gifts this is not you know and then you and Jesus are going to write happily into the sunset and it's all going to get this is about family of God interrupting a potential life of daunting and dangerous loneliness because it's promised here in the Bible your neighbors who identifies who come to Christ are now going to be refugees from a community that understands hospitality in ways that put Christians to shame the l.g.b. Community those homes are open every night for food fellowship standing between you and suicide. I've been saying lately that the Gospel has to come with a house key every Christian House has to be ready to receive refugees if not you're preaching half the Gospel brother and I'll tell you what that's hard what's hard that's hard but you see if your words are stronger than your relationship they're going to ring as hate in a world that doesn't understand. Of deep and abiding Christian value Ken Smith taught it to me 17 years ago when I was a gay activist he sat me down he said resign here's what you don't understand in a biblical world in life you what is true determines what is desirable and what is ethical you're saying it in reverse and you'll never find God's blessing there and here's the thing the Gospel is it negligible You know one of the things that I really struggled with when I finally broke up with my girlfriend I understood that while I was sinning by look at all these these other lesbian couples and they looked so happy in their households look so good and part of me really felt you know maybe sin is Ok for some people you know why or why am I lesbian neighbors the the nicest people on the block you know some some people where sin a lot better than others and and you know I just prayed to God that he would allow me to come face to face with his word on this because I didn't understand why I could see my sin is sin and their sin as acceptable and I think that's what some of our teenagers are you know missed many of our believing teachers their face for their they're good they're good cover to children but it feels wrong to them to apply what they know about themselves to those friends who don't yet know the Gospel well and they're in a spot where they're feeling inadequate and they're feeling inadequate and I think we need to remember it's exactly in that moment that we need to remember that the moment that we think God's word discriminates against some people. We're in danger you know Romans one says something I says a number of very powerful things but one of the things that really hit me to the core was this idea that if you can't get a blessing from God you will demand it from primary. And you know what that's what we see with this proliferation of alphabet soup What do we see with that with the with the government over over acting constantly overacting we see that idea in Romans one being played out I can't get a blessing from God and I have desperate to get it from man so I need more civil rights I need more rights I need more privileges and then this party needs more rights and these privileges and it will not end until Christians stand and in their barbecues and on their in their library studies and even scarily at their gender sensitivity training workshops say I'm sorry but that's not how I see this I think that being born male and female comes with ethical moral responsibilities and restraints and that's God's goodness to us and guess what you might get fired. And we all might be arrested. Probably sooner rather than later think that a guy gives a glory and this is how often through persecution is how the Gospel travels with power Yeah very well said resign you know what I just so appreciate how you've grounded this entire discussion in the word coming back to it referencing the very Scriptures that buttress your comments as society is shifting and it's changing so fast it's frightening it's unsettling it's you know it's just changing the way we see things and the fact is you've shared today that God's word has not changed and it's not going to change it's like the definition of marriage what I have said in my interviews on this regard my book marriage done right one man one woman it they can redefine it at a government level at our cultural level but it doesn't change the truth of God's Word it did simply defines it for a community that doesn't know the Word of God type but one thing it does to gay marriage puts the gospel on a collision course with the new civil rights categorized and in that collision we're going to have casualties and you've got it and unfortunately right now it could very well be the Christian community but it's so important therefore for the evangelical church to for us to come together in unity as Bible believing Christians because of the word and know the word and not give up on religious liberty because we are not to render unto Caesar what he has asked for you know so well said again so thank you for being with us last time and today this is been a terrific conversation I look forward to the next time yes me too thank you thank you but I bless you. And that's how this best of 2017 focus on the family broadcast conversation went with our guest Dr Rezai of Butterfield she wrote a superb and insightful book called openness on him John that was a fascinating discussion with resort area and obviously many of our listeners were impacted by it when we aired the program last time in fact we received one comment from a woman named John that I'd like to read she said I can't thank you now for. This Today programme it was an answer to prayer for me I have coworkers I care about who are lesbians and I struggle to relate with them in ways that honored them and myself resort area has called me to a higher place my heart was moved and I know God is calling me to grow in this area that is so encouraging John to hear it's our prayer that broadcasts like this one and the resources we provide will challenge you and motivate you to dig deeper into your faith and discover areas where God wants you to grow more like him and that's why I want to send you a complimentary copy of resign his book open this unhindered if you can send us a donation of any amount I will get a copy to you and maybe you know a friend or coworker someone in your church who would benefit from this book as well and here's an extra bonus we have available for you right now at the end of the year focus on the family has a matching grant opportunity thanks to some very generous friends in the ministry and this means any gift you send will be doubled so $50.00 becomes 101-0200 so please be generous in your giving today so that we can continue to strengthen and encourage more families in 2018 you have the number to call is 802326 point 59800 the letter a in the word family or visit focus on the Family dot com slash radio to learn more . When you get in touch Be sure to order your copy of our Best of 2017 broadcast collection it includes some great guests like Dr David Clarke explaining how you can improve communication in your marriage and Shante Felten with a 30 day kindness challenge and you'll hear powerful stories from Kim meter about how forces can help transform the life of a troubled child all this and more in our Best of 2017 collection we've got it at Focus on the Family dot com slash radio. Next time Gary Thomas joins us to describe how you can take your marriage to the next level by cherishing your spouse a chair she marriage is so rich it's worth working for I think one of the biggest lies is that infatuation is the pinnacle of marriage that's next time on focus on the family and thanks for listening when you get in touch let us know the call letters of this radio station I'm John Fuller and on behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team join us next time as we once again help you and your family thrive. 147 the word if you protected your family with the will and powers of attorney this is Gordon Williams of cord injury Williams p.c. Attorneys at Law in 20 years of practice I've helped thousands of families in Colorado put their wills trusts and powers of attorney in place they have the assurance that appropriate documents are protecting them and their families and I'd like to help you please call me Gordon Williams or my associate Luke Johnson at 471-9300 we will talk about wills trusts powers of attorney and how we can put the right plan in place for you so please call me Gordon Williams or Luke Johnson at 471-9300 Our office is located you can view. Only downtown or if you can come to us will come to you Gordon Williams and Luke Johnson your family attorneys 471-9304 all of your estate planning needs for 719300.