Well, i dont really feel it, it doesnt feel like a crisis, you say what . So the way i approach Global Warming is that i think of it as an insurance question. Its like if you were driving down the street and someone told you that your house was on fire, and then someone said, oh, no, its not really your house, its the house next door, dont worry about it, what would you do . Youd probably turn around and go back. You have insurance not because you actually think your place is going to burn. You have insurance because, you know, if it happens, its such a catastrophic problem that theres no real way out of it. So right now were in this really important point where i feel like if there is a possiblity that this is going to happen it makes a lot of sense for us to take care of it now. And i think its not just a possibility. Most scientists would agree that it is a reality. The debate mostly is about how quickly its going to happen and what we can do about it. Hinojosa but the fact is that you still encounter, as a scientist, a lot of people who say that humans are actually the ones who are causing all of the problems. I do encounter them, although youd be surprised at the fact that i dont encounter a lot of them. Most people. Hinojosa where do you encounter them the most . Are they in this country, are they in other parts of the world . Its not outside the us. Outside the us, you know, i was. Not very ago i was in the forest in indonesia. And to get there its, you know, three plane rides and then, you know, ten hours in an. Hinojosa you and your plane rides. Suv, exactly. Thats true, good point. Fair enough. Hinojosa you and your plane rides. Were not perfect. None of us are perfect, right . So. But, you know, you get in there, and then theres a local chief whos telling you that he has seen the Climate Change in his lifetime. So im hearing it. You know, ive seen it in the arctic, where local people are telling me that. For me, climate has moved out of just the realm of science now to personal narratives of people who will tell you whats happening around their space. Once you meet those folks, the doubts are erased. Sort of the scientific, dispassionate sort of thing that i could take is gone away. Hinojosa so the most surprising thing, kind of the most shocking thing that youve seen, where its just like, oh, my god, i knew it was bad, but. Okay, so my most shocking story on this is that i went up to the arctic, and i. Hinojosa this was for the show on alaska. Yeah, this was for a show on alaska called expedition alaska. Its about climate in alaska. But we met this guy, and i spent a lot of time with him. His name is archie. And archie is a legendary whale hunter. You know, they go out in kayaks and handthrow whales. Harpoons into big whales. Hes 70plus years old, and hes of the highest status rank in this nupiak eskimo village. Very, very high status kind of guy. And one day he was with me in one of his cabins, and he said, i want to show you something. This never made it on the show, actually. You know, i followed him and he took me into an ice cellar. And an ice cellar is something that the eskimos cut out of the permafrost, which is frozen earth, in order to store their meat. And its very, very hard to build. Youve got to chip it out of solid ground, right . Solid frozen ground. And inside, its stacked with all the meat for his family, and his extended family. So whale, and walrus, and goose, and caribou and so on and so forth. And he said, this has been in my family all my life. And this guy is 70plus years old. Hinojosa oh, you mean, like, they build it once and it stays . Exactly. Its like the frigidaire, the permanet frigidaire made out of ice. Exactly. And. Because its hard to build these things, and it goes. You know, generation after generation will use the same cellar. And he said, you know what . Last year for the first time in my memory it thawed out, and i lost, you know, a third of my meat for the winter, which is a big deal for those guys. Hinojosa of course. And he said, guess whats happening now . And he took me to the corner, and this was sort of in september, and sure enough theres a puddle of water dripping from the wall. And so we emerge out of this, and i was shaken by it. And i said, what are you going to do . And he pointed out, and outside his house hes got a ge refrigerator freezer sitting there, waiting to be plugged in. Hinojosa oh, my god and i thought, yeah, you know, this old thing about were going to sell, you know, freezers to the eskimos is really coming true. So once you meet a guy like that whos showing you something thats happening in his life, and hes an old guy, so he knows the patterns of nature, its hard to be dispassionate about it. You know that you are part of the problem, and thus you also have to be part of the solution. Hinojosa but of course, people are going to say, well, god, thats dramatic, and its happening in alaska. Yeah. Hinojosa and so. What about here . Hinojosa and so what am i supposed to do . You know, they can write checks, and well go through a number of things. But what does that person do . Get informed by it. Hinojosa but, you know, theres almost a part. Im sorry to interrupt you, but theres almost a part of people who say, you know what . We have too much information. All the time were hearing about the climate crisis. And its almost as if people are saying, it just feels like its talked about all the time, and so then therefore the crisis nature of it. So when you say get informed, its like, get informed how . Like, in what way are we supposed to be getting informed thats going to be different . Hinojosa you know, i think you have to personalize it. You have to make it real to your life. And i think one of the first things you can do is find out how much carbon you actually use. So you can do a carbon audit. Its not that hard to do. Lots of web sites do it. Our own web site, you know, at nature. Org, which is the Nature Conservancys web site, will help you do it. Its a quick thing you can do, it takes five minutes, and itll give you a sense of how much carbon youre using. And it might surprise you where youre going to emit the most amount of carbon, what part of your lifestyle. It might not be your driving. It might be your house. It might be, you know, the kind of food you eat. And you can make small changes. This is what i believe. I think we can knock our Carbon Emissions down by 20 right now, you and i, without changing anything major about our lifestyle. And you wouldnt notice the difference. Hinojosa so, for example . For example, you know, driving patterns, food you buy, how much you heat every room in your house, leaving things plugged in when youre not using it. You know, i just left for a big trip, and when i left my house i didnt just, you know, turn things off. I actually unplugged them. Not your refrigerator kind of thing, but my television and vcrs and dvd players and things like that. Hinojosa your computers . My computers, exactly. Because just even having them plugged in keeps them on standby, which means theyre, you know, energy vampires, and theyre draining a little bit of energy all the time. Thats a really simple thing. Eating just a little bit of less meat every day or every week can make a difference. Its healthier for you, but meat tends to be very heavy in terms of how much carbon goes in to produce. Hinojosa thats what my husband the vegetarian. Hes like, you know what . You want to talk about being green . Good karma. Hinojosa stop eating meat. And actually, i did. I stopped eating red meat, because. You know, just because i was tired of it. But. Youd be surprised. Just go and look. Do the carbon calculator yourself, and i bet you just that change probably has knocked you down by 20 , just that one change. Hinojosa okay. And im not even telling people not to eat meat. Im just saying eat just a little bit less. Its probably healthy for you, because most western diets are hugely, you know, tilted in the wrong direction in terms of red meat. Hinojosa but we may be eating less meat, but does that mean that the industry itself is therefore. It. Hinojosa . Contracting, and then thats whats having the impact, right . Right. So there is a chain. I mean, obviously, yes. Absolutely. So if you buy less stuff, or, you know, fly less, or, you know, heat your house less, or eat less meat, it is going to have a downstream impact. But i actually think that over the long run it actually helps everyone. You know, i was in arizona a year or so ago, a couple years ago, and i watched in a ranching community in douglas, arizona, which is not exactly the. Hinojosa its on the border. On the border, and its not exactly a place where conservation is the first word out of peoples mouths. Hinojosa right. I watched a room of 50 cowboys. You know, this is with hats and cattle dogs sitting right next to them in cowhide jackets, complete dead silence in this room while a scientist was telling them about what was happening to their range land because of Climate Change. And the scientist was basically saying, did you guys know that last year was the first year you didnt have frost on your land . And every head in the room nodded. And he said, you know that it means its going to be a really bad fire season this year. Every head nodded. Those guys were frightened. They really were frightened. So, you know, theyre losing their livelihood for a host of reasons, and i dont think that adjusting our diet by ten, 20 percent is ultimately going to make, you know, most ranchers just immediately go out of business. That isnt what im trying to push here. Hinojosa so how many people actually, sanjayan, have to go to nature. Org and take the test to figure out. I mean, in order for it to have a real impact. How do you measure these things . Thats a really tricky question that you just asked, how you measure the impact of the work you do. I actually think every person should do it every Single Person on the planet. Every Single Person certainly in the us who has an access to a web site should be able to do this and find out what their impact is and make small adjustments as they see fit. And then make bigger adjustments in terms of, you know, what you learn about, what kind of legislation you push for or ask for. Thats what informed citizenry is. And think of it as an insurance policy. Heres the deal if we are completely wrong on this, weve lost some money and weve lost some economic steam. But if we are right and Climate Change is happening as the most august body of scientists, like the National Academy of scientists, is telling us, we dont have another planet to have a doover again. And thats where it becomes really serious. You know, you dont really have another chance at this. So you. You know, the cost of dealing with it today is about the equivalent of one latte a week from starbucks. If you wait 50 years from now. Hinojosa for everybody in the United States, or for everyone. Yeah, every person in the western world. And it just gives you a sense of how much. It isnt a huge amount of money. Its significant, but its not huge. You wait 20 years, you wait 30 years, the cost rises dramatically by an order of magnitude. So deal with the problem now when you can still actually deal with it, or deal with it later. Either way its going to happen. Hinojosa but still, it feels like for so many people, like. And so when someone whos quite. Someone makes a statement thats considered quite controversial. We were talking about this. This is from bangladesh. And one of the top environmentalists of bangladesh, which is the country thats on the front lines of kind of receiving all of the impact of Global Warming floods, you know. Sure. Hinojosa and he says, well, you know, whats going to have to happen is that the United States. I have a calculation, a mathmatical calculation, that the amount of land we lose because of Global Warming, the United States and china and india that are producing the Carbon Emissions that are causing this, youre going to have to take this number of bangladeshis, because they are environmental refugees. And then people are suddenly like, wait a second. No, no, no, no, no. Then it almost feels like, wow, so were going to have to actually see people who are environmental refugees . Then it begins to feel a little bit more real. Or. Absolutely right. So theres entire nations. And bangladesh is really on the forefront, youre right. But places like the maldives, which will just completely disappear. And those people have to go somewhere. And theyre generally going to go to western countries. So theres going to be a huge change in patterns of how people move. But to be honest, you dont have to go that far. You know, miami is right in the path of this. A lot of coastal florida, a lot of boston, a lot of the eastern seaboard, is really going to see the impact of rising sea levels. And those people are going to have to move back from there. And as people move back, then theres impact further and further away. So for me, you know, i look at Climate Change as being. You know, its a unique problem. Were the only. You know, its the only environmental problem where every Single Person is contributing to it. And because every Single Person is contributing to it you, me, and everyone else you cant just point to the bad guy. You cant say, its the loggers over there, or, its these people over there. Were all doing it. And so the only way to get a handle on it is for us all to then take collective action. Its really a unique problem. Hinojosa so when you think about communities that are in this country victims of a kind of environmental racism, for example, and you think about the fact that these are poor, predominantly ofcolor comunities that are being dumped on, and all kinds of reasons. For all kinds of reasons, what do you say about the fact that, in the world in which you move, Nature Conservancy, these very highpowered kind of. Not elite, but important conservation and nature institutions in our country, do these people. Yeah. Hinojosa . From these communities, predominantly of color, poor americans, do they have a voice . Yeah, great question. So the Environmental Movement, for the most part, the western Environmental Movement i would say, over the last 50 years, has not done as good a job as it ought to in dealing with the poorest of the poor and the people who are going to be most impacted by, you know, global changes, and have the least ability to do something about it. I think that is definitely changing today, and i think that the reason its changing is because i think that both these sides are understanding that theyre just two sides of the same coin. You know, when conservationists have looked at people, theyve often seen people as the problem. We want to create a National Park to keep people out. Hinojosa right. You know, we want to do this because people are the problem. I know what that thinking is all about, but people are also the solution. And its not about. Youre not protecting something from people, youre protecting it for people. Weve spent so much time thinking about where we want to do conservation we havent thought about why we want to actually do it. Hinojosa so is that a conversation, essentially, that within your own institution, Nature Conservancy. Absolutely. It is a thriving conversation within our own organization, and frankly within all big conservation organizations right now. Like, when you go. Especially when you go outside the United States, where real poverty and hard poverty is hitting you. And do you just ignore the people and just focus on nature . And, you know, i make no apology, and my own background really forces me, you know, and inspires me to live in a place where theres big animals that can take my head off. I like that. Hinojosa you mean in missoula. In montana. Hinojosa in missoula, montana. I love that about it, right . But not everyone is so stimulated by that. And for poor People Living on the margins of nature, you know, they have real livelihoods and real needs. Now, heres the good news what we find out is that for poor people, nature is frankly even more important than it is for the rich and well off. Hinojosa because . Because if the river dries out, they dont have an alternate source for getting water. If the forest does not have trees anymore, they do not have an alternate source for heating their homes. You know, there are 149 Million People in the pacific rim who feed on fish. That is their primary source of protein. If the fish go off from the reef, if theres a massive dieoff of coral, bleaching happens, and they lose their potency to have. You know, to produce fish, those people will starve. So what i have found is when ive traveled into rural areas, theyre not calling it conservation. They dont use that word. But nature is incredibly important to the poor and downtrodden, because they have no chance of replacing. They cant go to the store and buy a bottle of water. Hinojosa but im thinking about the piece that you did when you. A very personal piece that you did. Was it also for discovery . This was when you went to sierra leone. I did that for the bbc and then animal planet, yeah. Hinojosa and then animal planet. Yeah. Hinojosa and you were born in sri lanka, your parents both worked for the united nations, youre living in this little village. In west africa. Hinojosa in west africa, sierra leone. Yeah. Hinojosa love it that when you were going to school with the kids in sierra leone they all looked at you and called you the white guy. Yeah, sure. Hinojosa but you go back to see the impact that war has had on nature in sierra leone, and theres a moment where you have this conversation where youre with one of your friends, who has all the chimpanzees. Oh, yes, yes. Hinojosa whos protecting the chimpanzees. All of these orphan chimpanzees, which was also kind of extraordinary. And you have this conversation like, theres a lot of poor people who live right outside of here, and were talking about protecting the animals. Yeah. Right, that was a great moment, you know . And hes an old friend of mine. And his whole. His philosophy was there was a lot of organizations that were thinking about human needs, why not have one organization thinking about animal needs. I come at it from a little bit different perspective. You know, when people say to me, look, how can i think about the forest or the tigers in india when theres, you know, millions of people who are starving . I say thats true, but the tradeoff is not real. Its a false tradeoff. Its a false dichodomy that people are setting up for you. If you said to me, poverty in india would disappear, but wed have to get rid of the tigers, it might be a tradeoff that i might be willing to consider, and a lot of people would be willing to consider it. The truth of the matter is, if the last 2,000 tigers that are left in india today disappear, all youd be left behind is poor people in india and no tigers. Ive never, ever seen a situation where poverty has disappeared or gone away through the loss of an environmental service. I havent seen it. So people set that up and say, well, if not for that National Park, wed all be rich. No, it doesnt really happen. If not for the National Park, youll still be poor, and you wont even have that option to exercise it in the future. Hinojosa so does that mean that as a conservationist, you. One of your focuses is actually alleviating poverty . Right. So its a slippery slope there, right . Hinojosa because some people might say, wait a second, as a conservationist. I just gave you money for conservation. What are you doing doing work that, you know, care or oxfam or some other organization should do . We have to keep our ball. Our eyes on the mission. And the mission is to protect nature. But how we do it and why we do it can definitely change. So my whole philosophy has been, unless local people are willing to take a stake in that nature and say, this is important to our livelihoods, its a real issue for us, it ranks in the top five issues along with health care and kids and security and so on and so forth, it wont ever be sustainable. And the minute the money dries out and the money will always dry out, the money coming from the us or from western world to protect these places itll be an open. You know, itll be open season again. So for me, its all about trying to convince local people, showing them the link and making it explicit that if they manage their nature, their Natural Resources well, it will actually benefit them over the long run. Now, there are some cases where youre down to the last. Look, youve got, you know, 300 mountain gorillas, youve got to go in there and protect it, go in there and protect it. And there are some cases where you just have to give food aid, because there are refugees on the move, and you cant talk about, you know, nature and all that. You just have to give them food or medicine or whatever. But in a lot of cases, in maybe the majority of the cases, that link can be made and strengthened. Hinojosa but what about when you hear. When you see whats happened with the poor, which is, you know what . I do have to take down that tree, because i need to build the fire, because i need to. And im going to keep on cutting down the trees as fast as i possibly can. And then people are saying, well, you see . Thats the problem, is that youve got too many people, and people are using up the resources. And if theyre poor and theyre desperate, theyre going to do what they have to do. Right, so thats called the tragedy of the commons, which is that if theres a resource out there, and its a collective resource, theres an accelerating chain where each individual is trying to maximize their gain, and it keeps happening. Interestingly enough, a woman recently by the name of Elinor Ostrum won the nobel prize for work that essentially says not always, under circumstances, under certain conditions, people can manage a resource for the common good over a long period of time. The trick is, how do we strengthen those levers that allow them to do that . It isnt always the case that people will go down this accelerating path. If theres urgent need, you have to meet those urgent needs. But once you get out of that absolute survival stage, you can think forward. Look, you know, ive gone on a few trips to indonesia recently, because i think its a fascinating and complicated country, even though my experience is mostly in africa. And ill tell you something i was with a guy by the name of mohammad, and he works for the Nature Conservancy. And he was telling me how he goes to these villages, and instead of talking to them about marine protective areas you know, set aside this area for fish which he got nowhere with, he now talks about fish banks, banking for fish. He says, look, this is really a savings account for you guys. And all of a sudden the villagers are turned on. They want to now collectively establish marine protected areas where fish are safe and breed, they can grow to big sizes and thus breed, and then the spillover is then harvested by communities. But just turning the words around and calling it a fish bank and giving people that connection has made the world of difference to him. Hinojosa so as we wrap up, sanjayan, what do you want people to talk away from this . You know, you said get informed. Sure. Well, first of all, dont get depressed, right . Its still a fun world out there. You know, we have this thing that said, look, at least try to outlive, you know, those guys. So go out there and enjoy the natural world. Its still a fascinating and amazing place. But definitely get informed. Dont be sitting. Dont sit this one out. Dont sit this one out. You dont get a doover. We are really the luckiest generation on the planet. You know, we. 50 years ago we didnt know what was going to happen. 50 years from now, it really would be too late. But were in this narrow band why wouldnt you want to be born right now . Where we can see the future and actually have time to do something about it. Hinojosa all right, but give us the list. Give us. Just because i want to leave our audience with a few concrete things. Sure. Hinojosa get informed. Join a conservation organization, whether its the Nature Conservancy or a local organization in your backyard, thats fine. Because thatll get you informed in your local community. Hinojosa okay. Let your kids lead you. Kids right now in school are a little bit ahead of the parents, and they will tell you. You know, my niece is going around telling me when to turn off the lights, and shes sort of reverse engineering my family, who has been not as fast at adopting these things as i maybe would have liked myself. So thats great. So let them lead, you know . Let them lead. Have fun doing it, and give. Give. You know, right now the Environmental Movement is so down the list of peoples worries. Move it up the list. It is as important as health care, security, and education. Hinojosa and can i ask you, sanjayan, what do you do in your own life . I mean, how do you kind of do this balance . Because youre out there talking about conservancy. Conserving everything possible, and yet. My mea culpa, the one thing that im not very good at, is i fly a lot. Hinojosa thats what i was going to say. Now, im trying to do more teleconferencing, im trying to use. You know, cisco has this thing called telepresent. Its a great sort of system where you can really be in the same room, essentially, with people. But flying is my worst vice. I drive a prius, i live in a pretty small, modest house, im thoughtful about how i heat it, im thoughtful about my energy use in terms of that. I watch what i eat. Im a very careful consumer, particularly of fish. Dont ever eat a big predator, is a good rule of thumb. Dont eat something thats older than you is another good rule of thumb. So i try to make the changes in my own personal life as best as i can. Hinojosa all right. The one thing that you want all of us to do today . Well, thats easy. Look you know, just go check out the Nature Conservancys web site. Its nature. Org. Its an easy one. It will at least get you thinking and get a conversation going with people around you. I think thats fine. And take a walk today. Go out there, take a walk today. I dont care what the weather is, just do it. Hinojosa okay, and well leave with dont get depressed we can do this. Please dont get depressed. Itll never get you out of bed. Hinojosa thank you so much. Sure, thank you, maria. Hinojosa good luck. Continue the conversation at wgbh. Org oneonone. Captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org [narrator] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation and hillco partners, a texas Government Affairs consultancy. And by klrus producers circle. Ensuring local programming that reflects the character and interests of the greater austin, texas community. Im evan smith. Hes a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist who is the executive editor of the new york times. The top of the masthead job at the most important and iconic News Organization in the world. Hes dean baquet, this is overheard. Lets be honest, is this about the ability to learn, or is this about the experience of not having been taught properly . How have you avoided what has befallen other nations in africa . But you caused him to sleep in it. You saw a problem and over time, took it on. Lets start with the sizzle before we get to the steak. Are you gonna run for president . I think i just got an f from you
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