So, hard to sum up ten years, but what was it like . Well, i think it was the most interesting period of my career, and challenging, and ultimately satisfying, but it was really the hardest for many different for many different. Hinojosa because . Well, to open the bureau there was quite a challenge. The ap hadnt been. Hadnt had a permanent presence in cuba for almost three decades. So basically it was my job to find an office space, furnish it. Hinojosa hire the people. Hire the people. And you had to hire them through the cuban Government Employment agency. Hinojosa how long did the whole process take . About two years. Hinojosa just to open the office . Well, no. I mean, we opened the office, but it took. Probably took about two years until it was all outfitted. Hinojosa okay, so your biggest misconception about. Because you had spent some time, you had covered. You and i both were there when the pope was there in 1997. But what was the biggest misconception that you had about what it would be like, as a journalist, to live and cover cuba . I thought it was going to be easier. Hinojosa really . Yeah, i thought it was going to be. I had no idea how hard it was going to be. Hinojosa so what was so hard about it . Once we were set up, it was hard to report, because access was really limited. Hinojosa well, a lot of people find that one of the things why you are such a rock star in international journalism, if you will, is the fact that you, anita snow, for ten years were essentially able to keep your chops as a solid factbased journalist, but you were also able to be essentially critical of the cuban government and stay employed, keep your. You know, your bosses satisfied. Its. A lot of people just say, how were you able to please, you know, the cubans so they didnt kick you out, and at the same time be a really strong reporter . Well, i just. You had to and its the one thing the ap does the best. I mean, it kind of sort of balanced balanced reporting and neutral language. When the cubans would get upset with our reportage, which happened occasionally, it was usually because of the tone, or because. Or if there was an error of fact. I mean, if there was error of fact we always corrected, obviously. But the tone seemed to really kind of be a key. A key problem for them. Hinojosa now, a lot of americans, you know, are like, well, what do you mean, the cubans would get upset . So you actually. Youd get a phone call, and they would say things like, ms. Snow, we need you to come down to the press center, because we need to talk about that last piece you wrote. Yes. They call that a convocatoria. Hinojosa theres a name . Yeah, you were convoked. Hinojosa you were convoked. To come down and have a chat about your story. Hinojosa and theyd have your story in front of them. Theyd have your story, and theyd have it, you know. Hinojosa highlighted. They would have it highlighted, and wed talk about it. Which was fine, you know . I figure if i sign a story or somebody in my bureau writes the story, we can talk about it. I mean, i think we have to be responsible for what we sign our name on. So i was happy to talk to them about it. I didnt always agree with them, and if i didnt agree with them i told them, you know, i disagree. But wed talk about it, you know . And i think they appreciated that. I mean, i think they appreciated that i wouldnt get defensive and i wouldnt get ornery, and i was willing to discuss everything. Hinojosa so did you have a situation where you were, as a journalist, kind of being watched . Did you think, okay, if i go out and i interview this person, theres a chance that the cuban government or officials will come and clamp down on this person because they spoke to a reporter . Was that kind of your daily. Or was that not how you operated on a daily basis . It depended on who you were talking to and what you were talking to them about. For instance, when wed go interview elizardo sanchez, who is a very wellknown dissident, and hes a veteran human rights activist, theres a guy who sits in a car right out in front of his house. Hinojosa really . Yeah. Hes, like, right there. Hinojosa oh, my god. And i remember going to see elizardo, and id see the guy, and id say, hey, hows it going . And he would, like, look at me like this, right . But its. I mean, it was really obvious, at least with the dissidents. Now, we assumed that we were being monitored too, but in our case it wasnt so obvious. But wed just have to assume that they were keeping an eye on. Hinojosa well, lets talk about what thats like. Because if youre an american, american living in cuba, and if youre an american journalist living in cuba, you were being watched. You were being spied on. We assumed. Hinojosa i mean, you assumed. We assumed, yeah. Hinojosa what does that do to you, when youre thinking, okay, well, this guy is parking my car, but is he really just parking my car, or is he. You know, or, the woman whos cleaning my house, is she really cleaning my house, or is she picking up. Did that. Did you let at get into your head, about e fact that thatyour fe in havana . Well, i mean, i was cognizant of it, and quite frankly i did see a lot of people write down my Car License Plates at different parking lots and stuff. They would. You know, that was sort of a matter of course. I mean, i remember going to the clinic, the Health Clinic for foreigners, and every car that was parked down there theyd write down their license plate, every single one. Hinojosa we talked about the fact that you assumed that your phone line was being tapped. Yeah. Hinojosa but when you think about whats happening in the United States, or what was happening during the ten years when you were living in havana, and now you kind of come back and youre like, hmm, americans were being eavesdropped on by their own government, too. I was being. Actually, when i was in mexico. I actually got proof that i was being bugged when i lived in mexico when i was covering chiapas. I had a guy from telmex check it out for me, and he said i was being bugged from three different sources. Hinojosa so how do you operate as a journalist like that . Well, you can still make your calls and do reporting. I dont really care. Im not doing anything wrong. Theyre already going to know who i talk to, because im going to publish the stories. And if they want to listen to all my boring conversations with my sister, you know, whatever. I mean, and then just after a while you just get used to it, because if you worry about it, you waste a lot of time worrying about it. Hinojosa okay, but is there a psychological. Now that you have a little bit of distance. You left havana several months ago. Now youre living in cambridge. With a little bit of distance, do you look and say, wow, i really was affected by my time in cuba . Or are you thinking, wow, i really miss cuba, you know . I mean, whats the balance for you . I think i was really affected by my time in cuba, just kind of worn out. Hinojosa can you tell me about that . Yeah, you know, i came here. You know, i came to cambridge for this fellowship at harvard, which is fantastic. Hinojosa the nieman fellowship. The neiman fellowship. And, like, the first few weeks i was here i slept all the time. I was just exhausted. You know, because it was a lot of hard work for a lot of long years. Hinojosa there was, like, an emotional, a psychological exhaustion . Yeah, i think that was part of it, too. And physical, you know . Its just like. I dont know. Covering a place like cuba, youre kind of waiting for the big story all the time, you know . You know, were watching fidel, you know, because everybodys like, when. You know, when fidel dies, its going to be a big story. The problem is, its not an adrenaline story. Its not like going to afghanistan, or covering a story where you have adrenaline that keeps you going. So its a little bit. It becomes wearing on you. I mean, you dont have the adrenaline to keep you going, so after a while you start getting kind of burned out, really. Hinojosa and you as a reporter took some amazing challenges. I mean, again, you are a rock star in terms of international reporters. Oh, thank you. Hinojosa but there are a lot of people who also cant stand anita snow. Thats true. Hinojosa huge critics. One of the things that you did was in the year 2007, you decided to live on the same exact food rations and salary as if you were a regular cuban. Paint that picture for us. What does that look like . Like, help americans who are watching this understand what that looks like. Well, you know, i had thought about it for a while, you know . And i remember talking. You know, we talked about it. Some of the other reporters, we talked about it. And a lot of people were afraid to do it, because they were afraid they were going to be criticized, because they knew, you know . And i thought about it, but i thought, you know, wouldnt it be interesting . Because the thing is you cant really appreciate. And i dont pretend to appreciate totally how a cuban lives. But i think it was the one area of their life where you could try to get kind of a sense of what a cuban has to go to to eat every day. And its not easy. Hinojosa just being a regular cuban whos not. Who doesnt have access to dollars coming in from family, so just surviving on the cuban peso and trying to eat every day. You spend how much of your day, lets say, on a daily basis, dealing with, like, where am i going to get it, how am i going to buy it, where am i going to find it . Well, i did it for a month, and i spent a couple hours every day at this. You know, because you have to go to lots of different places to get stuff. Hinojosa its not like you can go to the Corner Grocery store. No, there isnt a Corner Grocery store. I mean, there might be. There might be a small store with, like, some of the stuff you need, but not all of the stuff, you know . And then you have to go to the farmers market, and then you ahve to go to the. You know, the place where you would get your ration. Actually, thats in a couple of different places. Hinojosa you go with your little book. Uhhuh. Hinojosa and they check off. Well, i didnt have a book, but thats what cubans do. Hinojosa right, right. And they just check off what they gave you, this much rice. Exactly. Hinojosa so were you hungry . I dont know if i had real hunger, but i had yearnings for lots of Different Things i wasnt eating, including meat, because didnt eat hardly any meat for a month. And eggs get kind of boring after. Eggs and beans. Hinojosa but the whole food thing in havana. I mean, one of the things that makes it hard for you also is the fact that you had. Even though it was hard work as a journalist in havana, you had an okay life. You lived in an amazing penthouse that looked over, you know, the ocean. It was your kind of getaway. But how do you really, then, understand the lives of cubans, who would say, bye, anita, ill see you later, and you knew that they were going back to, you know, an apartment where maybe six people were all crammed together, where their futures were completely unclear. Howd you deal with that . I dont think a foreigner could ev fully understand the life of a cuban, unless they move into their house, i suppose. Hinojosa and are cuban people. Theres a lot of talk about. You know, theres a tremendous amount of joy in cuba, and there is. But also in my notes i wrote down, what about depression of the cuban people . Cubans are pretty cheerful people generally. Theyre very sort of a musical people. They sing a lot, and, i mean, just walking down the street, its just a very musical society. The music there is fantastic. Hinojosa did you find the cuban people to be open and welcoming . Oh, yeah, theyre very open. Theyre very curious about foreigners. You know, strangers will just come up and Start Talking to you and want to know all about you and stuff. Hinojosa and on the whole, would you say that the cuban people. Hard to generalize, but on the whole, would you say that they are well educated, very well educated, you know, not so well educated, aware of the world . I think theyre pretty well educated. I think they. You know, a lot of cubans now have access to illegal satellite tv. And of course theyre in contact with their relatives abroad, so theyre pretty well informed. Hinojosa in fact, this is from one of your articles. You said that the cuban Government Faces a kind of opposition of sorts from rappers, gays, dissident bloggers, private satellite dish installers, and women with tattoos and belly pierces. Yeah. Hinojosa theres this undercurrent of. What would you call it in cuba . Is it resistance, is it. What is it . Well, there are people who arent totally with the program. Theyre not really dissidents per se. I mean, in our society we might just consider them normal people, really. And theyre people who want a. They want something more. Hinojosa theyre essentially tired of seeing. They want some options, i think. I think thats really what people want. They want some options. They mostly want economic options. Hinojosa and its not like theyre all looking to leave cuba as soon as possible. No. Hinojosa people like their country. Yeah. I mean, i think theyd like to be able to leave and come back. I mean, its not like everybodys scrambling to get out of there and never come back ever. I mean, i think theyd like to be able to leave and see their family in miami, or wherever they may be, and come back, and leave and come back, and leave and come back, like any other country. Hinojosa so whats the more important story that youre kind of following now . Is the more important story what the Obama Administration is doing in terms of opening up relations with cuba, or is the story whats happening internally with cuba . When will fidel pass away . What will happen when he passes away . What will happen to raul castro and who kind of succeeds him . So which are you kind of watching most right now . I actually think the Obama Administration has the power to promote change in cuba more quickly than perhaps even raul castro by its policies toward cuba. Perhaps opening up travel to all americans, for instance, which is now banned. The Obama Administration has made good on his Campaign Promises to open up travel, full travel, for cuban americans living in the United States to visit their family. Hinojosa which is extraordinary. Which is extraordinary, which is actually more important than i think a lof of people realize. But most Americans Still cant travel there. So i think if more americans started traveling there, that could create an impact. Hinojosa so when you were in havana, you saw a lot of americans in havana and the rest of cuba. Who are they . What kind of americans are going down to cuba . Well, there were more coming. There were more going there during the clinton administration, and a lot of people came. A lot of people came. They came with Little League groups, they came with alumni groups from universities, they came. They came on tours of. You know, architectural tours, salsa dancing classes. Theyre just people who are interested in seeing the place. Hinojosa and when you have these groups of americans going into cuba like that, i mean, it seems kind of simple. Its like, well, you know, a Little League comes. Can that change . Can that help actually transform whats going on in cuba . And how . Well, i think the contacts between cubans and americans. I remember even watching some of these Little League teams play, and it was incredible. Like, they would make friends. The little boys would make friends, and theyd trade tshirts, and theyd talk to each other. And cubans got a sense of what americans are like, and kind of what our ideals are, perhaps. As far as i know, americans were never prevented from going to soviet union or east bloc countries. Now, i may be wrong about that, but i. As far as i know, that was never a problem. Hinojosa so, the embargo. There are a lot of people in cuba who say if the embargo is lifted, that would be a huge problem for the cuban government. Because what you hear in cuba day after day, and you saw it with the big posters that are everywhere in the streets of havana, which, you know. El bloqueo, the embargo, is the worst thing that the yankee imperialists are doing to cuba. What would happen if president obama just said, you know what, the embargos gone, free trade between these two countries . It would remove the communist governments excuse for all the problems that exist. I think thats the biggest thing it would do. Now, once its gone, or once. If its gone, the cuban government can control the trade. They can decide whether to import and export, obviously. But if the bloqueo, as they say, is gone, their biggest excuse for all their economic problems is gone, too. Hinojosa and then what happens . Well, then everybodys going to say, but why is there a problem . Hinojosa like, if we cant. Why are there shortages . Why cant i find toilet paper, right . And then youre not going to have an answer for that. Yeah, they arent going to have an answer for that. Hinojosa now, cuba is. I mean, a lot of people have this fascination, and it really is extraordinary, and ive been lucky enough to have gone to havana several times. One of my top five favorite cities in the world. People have an image of a place that, you know, is kind of in this moment in time, hasnt transformed. Youve got the 1950s automobiles. But in fact, theres a lot of stuff thats happening. You have international businesspeople in cuba, theyre making a killing, essentially the brits, the mexicans, the spaniards, the germans, the canadians, the australians. Everybody except for the United States. Thats true. I mean, there are. Well, actually, i do know a few americans there, and im not quite sure how theyve been able to get around that. Hinojosa who are doing a little bit of. Yeah. Hinojosa . Business situations. Yeah, i was always curious about that, like, hows that possible . Yeah, there are foreign business folks there. There arent that many. And of course, you know, the cuban government can control that, too, because it can control foreign investment, you know . It has lots of ways to put brakes on stuff. I mean, even if americans are given Carte Blanche by the Us Government to travel to cuba, the cuban government can control that as well with visas. It doesnt have to accept every single american tourist who wants to get on a plane or a boat or. Hinojosa all right, so what do you know of in terms of raul castro, who is now in power, 76 years old. You and i both. 78. Hinojosa 78 years old, oh, my gosh. Boy, that was fast. Okay, and you and i both, as journalists, equally upset about the fact that raul castro gives his first interview to an american, and it happens to be sean penn. But what is raul castro. Whats his plan . I mean, is there going to be a difference there or not . Well, hes done a few things. Theyve been relatively minor. I get the sense that he would like to open things up a little bit econom. You know, in the economic arena. Hes said to admire the china model, or perhaps even the vietnamese model. But i think thats been stopped by the presence of his brother, fidel castro, whos still alive, and then the old guard, which kind of back up fidel. But he has done a few things. I think one of the things thats sort of been overlooked, which i consider to be extremely important, was when he got rid of this ban on cubans being able to stay at hotels, Tourist Hotels and tourist resorts, because that was a really sore point for a lot of cubans. Hinojosa well, because it was like apartheid within your own country, right . Right. But thats gone now. In fact, in the first few weeks, there are a few journalists who have offices over at the hotel nacional, and one of them went to chat, and about half of the people staying at the hotel were cubans. Hinojosa oh, my god. Yeah. Hinojosa just because they could, they wanted to stay in the hotel nacional. Oh, lets go stay in the hotel now. Hinojosa so this image, fidel castro passes away, and theres havoc in havana, and, you know, the cubans who live in the United States are going to rush back into cuba, this is a picture that is not real. No, thats not real. Hinojosa whats it really going to look like . Its going to look like a big state funeral. Its going to look like a big state funeral, its going to be a lot of heads of state. Itll be very sort of dignified and formal. And. Hinojosa but no protests out on the street, like. No, cubans dont do that. They just dont. They dont get out pots and pans. They just dont do that. I mean, this idea that people have, its not real. Hinojosa and the relationship of the cuban people to fidel, ive always found this very interesting. Its like theyre tired of him, because hes been around for so, so, so long, they dislike a lot of things that he represents, but they also dont necessarily walk around saying, i hate. I mean. Well, they dont walk around saying, i wish he was dead. Well, a few people do. Not that many. But hes. You know, hes like their dad or their uncle or their. You know, their annoying uncle. You know, the guy you see at christmas, you know . Like. Hinojosa again and again. You know, sometimes he gives you a a headache, but hes your uncle, you know . You dont say, oh, i wish uncle jorge would die. I mean, nobody does that, right . Hinojosa i suppose not. So its hard to predict, but give a sense. Okay, fidel passes, raul castro, 78, passes. Then what . Oh, thats a good question. Ive been thinking about that a lot lately. Theres no one person i see. I think the military might start taking a bigger role. Hinojosa and what does that mean . I mean, is that a positive thing . It could be. Hinojosa really . Yeah, it could be. I think there are some reforming elements in the military. The military plays a pretty big role in the economy now. And the companies some of these former military guys run are run extremely efficiently. But im not sure, like, what form the government would be in. I mean, i dont know if it would necessarily be a milary junta. But i do think the military would take a stronger role. I mean, the military is really the strongest institution that exists in cuba. More so than the communist party, i would say. Hinojosa all right, so weve got one minute left. Let me ask you this question you think of cuba, do you think of optimism, potential, hope, you know, creativity, possibility, or do you think of cuba and think, another decade or two of really rough times for the people there . Oh, id like to be optimistic for the cuban people. You know, im really fond of the cuban people. I spent a lot of time there, and i just. I mean, i dont think itll happen as fast as a lot of people would want, but i think its going to happen. I do think things are going to open up there eventually. You know, and i think people deserve a chance, people deserve some options. Hinojosa all right, and well see if anita snow makes it back to havana or not. Thanks for joining us, anita. A real pleasure. All right, thanks. Continue the conversation at wgbh. Org oneonone. Captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org is provided in part by the Alice Kleberg reynolds foundation. And hilco partners, a texas Government Affairs consultancy. And by klrus producers circle, ensuring local programming that reflects the character and interests of the greater austin, texas community. Im evan smith, hes a civil rights activist and educator whose work on behalf of the black lives Matter Movement has made him one of the countrys most celebrated and consequential advocates for social justice. Hes deray mckesson. This is overheard. Lets be honest, is this about the ability to learn or is this about the experience of not having been taught properly . How have you avoided what has befallen other nations in africa . You could say that he made his own bed, but you caused him to sleep in it. You saw a problem, and over time took it on. Lets start with the sizzle, before we get to the steak. Are you gonna run for president